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Rikudou King

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Based on what I have seen I would say that Lille is at a level well above the level of the Espada ....
Considering the strength of the Espadas varies between them, in addition to what they were originally, that doesn't say anything.

The speech remains the same.

How can one who is defeated by a weaker version of a power be a real threat when those who use power have another trick up their sleeve?

It would be like if Freeza had let the Kaioken defeat him ...
Because the powers aren't the same? Again, the abilities are quite different. You're comparing apples and oranges here, and ignoring their actual abilities, or even the events surrounding things.

But if the manga itself says it through Aizen XD
How does Aizen remarking that their power was less then his show weakness, when he considered the same for the combined forces of the Captains and Vizards? Especially when Soul Society thought they were in serious trouble before the Vizards showed up to save them?

Sure, then for the same speech, Law could beat Big Mom and Kaido with one hand .....
Kaido is a long range attacker with crazy speed to knock someone out instantly, Law would be at a huge disadvantage against him. As for Big Mom, why not? What exactly do you see in that scenario that counters my comment?

What Black Clover or any other shonen abounds, no denying it ...
You have yet to show any kind of inconsistency...

Ah well if we think so we should no longer comment on anything.
There's an obvious difference between commenting on something and complaining about how something has ended before we even see the ending.

Aaaaaaannnnnndddddd.....

Consequences on Asta? On his way of thinking? On your relationship with others?
The consequences were Asta took all the blame for the events with the elves, why would there be any change in his thinking when it was already established that he doesn't care about what people think of himself? And we were literally shown several characters, including one that had been his enemy, acknowledge how unfair the system was and how he shouldn't have had to take the blame, pretty much laying the seeds for their support in a future conflict.

Um, the manga maybe?
So you have a panel showing them on the scene during the events then?

Nooooooooooo......

The Capital wasn't razed. We were shown scenes around, and while there was major damage, the majority of building and such were still standing. Had the Capital been razed, then clearly no one could continue to live there and the past couple of chapters couldn't have happen...

Nozelle almost dead, Ratry almost kill the king.....
How is that an extermination? Even if those examples involved them actually being killed, you would need a whole lot more being killed to allow that claim.

It was an observation.

You said that the Vermilion and the Silva as royal had no power, and I replied that according to this reasoning not even the Kira should have it.
Yeah, and I pointed out that Damnatio doesn't have power because he's a royal, he has power because he leads the Magic Congress. Meanwhile the King has also been shown powerless.

But I wouldn't say so.
We're literally told how the system works. You can't disregard the manga in how it works.

Yes but how many?

I would say very few.

Most of them have almost been described in a negative way.
Even if that was the case, that doesn't change the point. You can't support the death of all the Nobles and Royals, and ignore that not all the Nobles and Royals are evil. They weren't picking and choosing which ones to hate, they were hating all of them. Meaning allowing them to do that would still be an evil act, since several of the characters we follow are Nobles and Royals, thereby making us side with them.

Annnnnnddddd ....

What did I say?
You said she mastered it with battle experience, whereas we're shown it being done with training.

The Raikage led the alliance, Gaara was in charge of a division, Mei protected the Damyo, Oonoki supported Gaara.

Yeah, they didn't do anything .....
Ee and Tsunade were literally shown sitting around, doing nothing. They weren't even the ones coming up with the tactics being used. And we outright saw when Naruto escaped, that there was nothing requiring them to be there. Also, Mei was hardly needed when they had a whole team to protect the Daimyo, proven by how she could just leave them later on.

Wait, what?
You continue to claim that the author refused to handle the "original" issue, yet I have asked several times exactly what you thought the solution would be, without you answering that. The message and point is quite clear, being the same for most shounens, that revenge is bad and only leads to more despair. If you think that it should have been handled differently, then you should actually explain that, instead of just claiming that it should have been.

For now, Damnatio has only shown one spell, a little to counteract such monsters.
And clearly he has more then just that, meaning as said, we don't know his limits either. Afterall, he didn't show any fear towards Yami rushing at him, so clearly he wasn't that worried. And why would Fuegoleon have to block him if he was defenseless in that situation.

The point of the speech is that I find it hilarious to present a terribly powerful magic as "balanced" ...

A bit like Tabata saying: "Yes, this magic can also make you a great coffee but did you see what a restriction I used?"

Anyway, if you like it that way, we can do.
But the limits that we're given do make it balance. It's quite far from being powerful, only usable in a defensive way.

Still not explaining, in short, if you face one of the greatest threats of all time without using your powers to the full, well you're an idiot.

A bit like if Goku had faced Majin Bu using only the SSJ.
What part of it being dangerous to his allies too, and not being a sure means of winning don't you get? You keep acting as using the strongest attack will mean a win, when we were literally shown that wasn't true - Again, both Barragan and Harribel easily tanked their opponent's bankais. Your whole claim is proven untrue by the manga itself.

Um yes, look at the pages I posted ....
You asked why we were talking about the Silva family, saying I brought them up when it was you who did that...

But......

There are at least seven dead .....
What proof do you have those others were Nobles?

But Atemu was not a villain,

He only punished the criminals, and in any case as he said his ruthless executioner period did not last long.
He's an anti-hero, as said. And killing people, even criminals, is not a good thing.

Not really, he was just a pawn from the main villain
No, he was the main villain. We learnt everything about him, the entire arc revolved around his actions, and his actions were the ones that had an effect upon the plot.

They were the same as Kaguya's, they were one entity
No they weren't. Black Zetsu literally stated he was not only her child, but everything he did was his own plan. Kaguya had no plan, that's how she ended up sealed in the first place.

In history, I mean. It is obvious that outside it serves to introduce the demonic race to the readers, but in the context of the manga that has plan or motivation does it have?
Again, to get a physical body. There was nothing more then that because there was no need for there to be anything more then that.

What you mean, or to show feelings that go beyond not serving their masters.

To hear you it seems that the spirit of water was the one who spoke of wanting the demon, which is strange given that, as I said so far, no spirit has ever shown similar feelings to thoughts.

That is, it would be like Bell had taken the initiative when Yuno was in a trance
Salamander literally left one person to awaken another, that was clearly not serving Fana. And Slyph did take the "initiative" upon her first appearance.

There's nothing showing that the Queen doesn't want the devil either, since as far as we've seen, it's wanted to help the country. And we have seen them wanting things. What exactly do you consider different with Slyph's wanting Yuno's love?
 

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Considering the strength of the Espadas varies between them,
Well already the fact that Stark, the strongest Espada, gets killed by the Kyoraku shikai where the Bankai was not enough for Lille, says it all.


Because the powers aren't the same? Again, the abilities are quite different.


But one power is undoubtedly superior to the other.


How does Aizen remarking that their power was less then his show weakness,
Whe he slays Haribel


Kaido is a long range attacker with crazy speed to knock someone out instantly, Law would be at a huge disadvantage against him. As for Big Mom, why not?
Yes, okay now Law would easily beat Big Mom XD


You have yet to show any kind of inconsistency...
But just read the manga and find them, if one then denies them a priori, well it's his business.

There's an obvious difference between commenting on something and complaining about how something has ended before we even see the ending.
Exactly, therefore according to this reasoning nothing should be commented ...

The consequences were Asta took all the blame for the events with the elves,
And did this affect anything about him? On the other characters? It seems to me no .....


Days have passed, most of them have been rebuilt ....


How is that an extermination?
Never talked about extermination in fact, I said they were close to the extermination. ,,,,


Yeah, and I pointed out that Damnatio doesn't have power because he's a royal,
So why does he have Kira as a surname?


Even if that was the case, that doesn't change the point. You can't support the death of all the Nobles and Royals, and ignore that not all the Nobles and Royals are evil.
Not everyone has to die, the most decent or deserving ones remain alive.


ou said she mastered it with battle experience, whereas we're shown it being done with training.
Ah, and where would the difference be? Even the experience in battle is training.


Ee and Tsunade were literally shown sitting around, doing nothing.

A is the head of the alliance, he had to direct. Tsunade lent a hand, however there was an entire medical team to treat the wounded.

And anyway, when the situation got really serious, they took to the field and fought.

You continue to claim that the author refused to handle the "original" issue, yet I have asked several times exactly what you thought the solution would be, without you answering that.
It depends, what do you mean by "original" issues?


And clearly he has more then just that, meaning as said, we don't know his limits either. Afterall, he didn't show any fear towards Yami rushing at him
As far as we know it could be the royal classic too sure of itself convinced that its power is enough to stop anyone, it is not a test.

The fact that Nozelle and Fuegoloen are due to intervene to stop Yami says a lot.

But the limits that we're given do make it balance. It's quite far from being powerful, only usable in a defensive way.
As I said:


A bit like Tabata saying: "Yes, this magic can also make you a great coffee but did you see what a restriction I used?"

Anyway, if you like it that way, we can do.




What part of it being dangerous to his allies too,
I would say that in such a situation certain problems do not occur to you ....


You asked why we were talking about the Silva family, saying I brought them up when it was you who did that...
Um, I was talking about the situation at their castle .....



What proof do you have those others were Nobles?
Yeah, in fact they were certainly peasants .... anyway surely those pierced two cartoons before were seen as saying it clearly ...

No, he was the main villain.
In light of the last chapters ..... no. It was just a tool, the main villain of the arc is the demon.


No they weren't
Um yes, he literally introduces himself as "his will" ....

Again, to get a physical body.
Annnnnnnnndddddddd......

Then ? To do what exactly?

Salamander literally left one person to awaken another,
It's not really the same thing, he was just looking for a new owner to serve ....
 

Rikudou King

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Well already the fact that Stark, the strongest Espada, gets killed by the Kyoraku shikai where the Bankai was not enough for Lille, says it all.
Except Lille got defeated by a shikai too, so what are you even trying to argue? And again, Harribel and Barragan also showed bankai wouldn't be enough.

But one power is undoubtedly superior to the other.
Yeah, the one that ensures death upon winning a game, as oppose to the one that will only allow you to kill someone weaker then yourself...

Whe he slays Haribel
That didn't answer the question. Aizen was already established as insanely strong, easily able to take out another Captain with a single spell. Canonically, he was already capable of taking all of Soul Society on solo. So again, how does the Espada being weaker then him prove they were weaker then Soul Society, especially when he was lacking more Vasto Lordes?

Yes, okay now Law would easily beat Big Mom XD
Alright then, how would she counter his ability?

But just read the manga and find them, if one then denies them a priori, well it's his business.
I have read the manga, and so have a bunch of others. So far you're the only one claiming there are such a thing. So if they were really there, then it should be easy to just show them. You lose nothing by proving actual evidence.

Exactly, therefore according to this reasoning nothing should be commented ...
Not sure how you got the exact opposite of my comment. The entire point is that you're complaining about how the events have ended before we actually see how they will end.

And did this affect anything about him? On the other characters? It seems to me no .....
Why would it affect him when the manga establishes that Asta doesn't care if he is disliked? And yeah, we have been shown multiple characters reacting to the unfairness. Heck, Langris, who actually attempted to kill Asta and hated his brother, was shown changing his opinion of Asta after learning what happen.

Days have passed, most of them have been rebuilt ....
Only the last example took place afterward, the rest were right during or after. And no, they were still cleaning up as we saw with Dorothy.

Never talked about extermination in fact, I said they were close to the extermination. ,,,,
Except that would imply the majority was dead or dying, and thus that would still be wrong.

So why does he have Kira as a surname?
Because he's a part of that family...

Not everyone has to die, the most decent or deserving ones remain alive.
And who would decide that? The elves clearly didn't care that the current population had nothing to do with what happen in the past.

Ah, and where would the difference be? Even the experience in battle is training.
Your original claim was that the Nobles would be good with their magic because they would be lacking experience in battle, but the series clearly shows that mastery can be gain simply by personal training, meaning that just because someone hasn't been in a fight, doesn't mean they won't be powerful.

A is the head of the alliance, he had to direct. Tsunade lent a hand, however there was an entire medical team to treat the wounded.

And anyway, when the situation got really serious, they took to the field and fought.
But he didn't. We personally saw what was going on. Neither of them were actually doing anything there. And they clearly didn't need to be there, since as mentioned, they happily left to go deal with Naruto in the middle of things.

It depends, what do you mean by "original" issues?
The issue with the elves.

As far as we know it could be the royal classic too sure of itself convinced that its power is enough to stop anyone, it is not a test.

The fact that Nozelle and Fuegoloen are due to intervene to stop Yami says a lot.
Fuegoleon didn't stop Yami, he stopped Damnatio. Had they both been focus on Yami, then you would have a point, but that wasn't the case.

As I said:


A bit like Tabata saying: "Yes, this magic can also make you a great coffee but did you see what a restriction I used?"

Anyway, if you like it that way, we can do.
But that saying implies the magic itself is crazy good, but her magic isn't like that. It's basically a single person protection spell.

I would say that in such a situation certain problems do not occur to you ....
Of course they would occur. Only an idiot wouldn't think of his allies or the consequences, especially when it's not a sure victory.

Um, I was talking about the situation at their castle .....
You were still the one who first mentioned them.

Yeah, in fact they were certainly peasants .... anyway surely those pierced two cartoons before were seen as saying it clearly ...
Or merchants or such. And yeah, but as mentioned before, you're presuming he had magic. Later in the chapter, when a known Noble with magic was confronted, they did try to fight.

In light of the last chapters ..... no. It was just a tool, the main villain of the arc is the demon.
Not sure how you can come to that conclusion when the last few chapters have treated the devils as the tools, to be gained or used. And again, were the devil the main villain, he would have actually been named, we would have gotten his background, and his defeat would have closed out the arc.

Um yes, he literally introduces himself as "his will" ....
I literally gave you the links to Black Zetsu stating that everything was his own plan. Again, canonically, Kaguya had no plan, which is why she ended up as nothing more then a beast and got sealed up.

Annnnnnnnndddddddd......

Then ? To do what exactly?
To be free.

It's not really the same thing, he was just looking for a new owner to serve ....
Aside from the fact that none of the spirits are shown serving, they're literally referred to as a blessing, it still goes against your claim. Clearly going to Fuegoleon would not be what Fana wanted.
 

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Except Lille got defeated by a shikai too, so what are you even trying to argue? And again, Harribel and Barragan also showed bankai wouldn't be enough.
Yeah, the one that ensures death upon winning a game, as oppose to the one that will only allow you to kill someone weaker then yourself...
That didn't answer the question.
Do you know what the problem is? That you are looking for logic where it does not exist.

The mangakas, especially those who write weekly series at great pace, do not write according to logic, but unfortunately they tend to add scenes and situations to draw the readers, not caring then if they are read later they sound ridiculous.

First they create the story, then if they want they create the links. Obviously there are authors good at hiding it (Oda) and authors who are not able to do it (Kubo or indeed Tabata).



Alright then, how would she counter his ability?
I wonder why Law is not emperor then XD


The entire point is that you're complaining about how the events have ended before we actually see how they will end.
Exactly, if to really complain about something we have to wait for it to end then we shouldn't complain more than anything.


Why would it affect him when the manga establishes that Asta doesn't care if he is disliked?
There is a difference from not being liked by four snooty nobles to being treated as the worst criminal after literally giving everything to save the country. Not to mention blatant threats from friends or relatives of Astar, which I imagine are not important ...


Only the last example took place afterward, the rest were right during or after.
So they rebuilt the capital while they destroyed it?


Except that would imply the majority was dead or dying,
Nozelle and Nebula seriously risked dying and the king was almost killed ....


Because he's a part of that family...
You did not understand.

You said this:
Damnatio doesn't have power because he's a royal,

So how come he has the surname Kira?


And who would decide that?
The plot itself


Your original claim was that the Nobles would be good with their magic because they would be lacking experience in battle,
And it's true.

but the series clearly shows that mastery can be gain simply by personal training,
Exactly, the fights are personal trainings practically always in the shonen


But he didn't. We personally saw what was going on. Neither of them were actually doing anything there.
??????

I suggest you to read the manga again.


Fuegoleon didn't stop Yami, he stopped Damnatio.
Sure ? It seems to me that he simply acts as a shield


But that saying implies the magic itself is crazy good, but her magic isn't like that. It's basically a single person protection spell.
As I say:

If you like it, what can we do?

You were still the one who first mentioned them.
And then?

I think I'm right, isn't it? Or do you want to deny that at Silva Castle there was no massacre of nobles?

Not sure how you can come to that conclusion when the last few chapters have treated the devils as the tools,
What? But if since he appeared he has done nothing but gloat over his wickedness and boast of having manipulated everything and everyone ....


literally gave you the links to Black Zetsu stating that everything was his own plan.
And in the manga it is clearly stated that Black Zetsu is Kaguya's will, which she created specifically to be able to come back to life one day, they are the same being.


Aside from the fact that none of the spirits are shown serving,


?????

No ? So what good do they do to those who evoke them if they don't do what they are told to do?
 

Rikudou King

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Do you know what the problem is? That you are looking for logic where it does not exist.

The mangakas, especially those who write weekly series at great pace, do not write according to logic, but unfortunately they tend to add scenes and situations to draw the readers, not caring then if they are read later they sound ridiculous.

First they create the story, then if they want they create the links. Obviously there are authors good at hiding it (Oda) and authors who are not able to do it (Kubo or indeed Tabata).
The fact that you think there's no logic here only shows that you either didn't actually read the series, or skimmed it. It's made quite clear that the Vasto Lordes were serious business, and that was carried throughout the arc. In no way was it a cop out. They literally had to be saved by another group of people.

Except in the case you're trying to use, we're shown later on the evidence to support what was going on then. We're shown Shunsui's bankai and why it wouldn't have worked. We're shown that a handful of enemies could take down Soul Society. It adds to the logic, not take away from it. The funniest part in all this is that there were points you could have used to actually argue this claim, like how Aizen already had complete control of Soul Society and an army, so there was really no reason for him to wait when he could have just taken over right during the execution.

Have you ever written a story? That's how all stories are written, from novels to screenplays. Regardless, just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it's bad or illogical.

I wonder why Law is not emperor then XD
Maybe because being an Emperor has more to it then a person's strength? It more involves a person's influence, and the sizes of their crew, which is how Luffy got proclaimed as one despite combat-wise failing to take down Big Mom.

Exactly, if to really complain about something we have to wait for it to end then we shouldn't complain more than anything.
To complain about how things end, you have to first see how it ends. Just like with the last arc, where you complained about the devil being introduced, and we can clearly see why that was done.

There is a difference from not being liked by four snooty nobles to being treated as the worst criminal after literally giving everything to save the country. Not to mention blatant threats from friends or relatives of Astar, which I imagine are not important ...
There is no difference. The Nobility always treated him badly, and he never cared. Meanwhile, these events have actually turnt people to his side. And his actions specifically removed any potential threats to anyone else, which was the whole point.

So they rebuilt the capital while they destroyed it?
The damage was only at selected spots, the majority of the capital was undamaged, as shown during the attack itself.

Nozelle and Nebula seriously risked dying and the king was almost killed ....
You do understand what the word "majority" means, yes? Naming a couple of characters is not showing the majority, it's showing a minority.

You did not understand.

You said this:



So how come he has the surname Kira?
Again, because he's apart of that family. What is hard to understand here? He's a royal, but that doesn't give him any power. The power that he has comes from being in charge of the Magic Congress. That's why he's considered a threat, whereas his cousin, the King isn't.

The plot itself
The plot had the elves wanting to murder everyone, thereby they were the villains who had to be taken down.

And it's true.
No it's not. I literally showed that the series makes it clear that they gain experience just by training. No need to be in a battle at all.

Exactly, the fights are personal trainings practically always in the shonen
Except there were no fights involved. It was actual training, practicing a move alone.

??????

I suggest you to read the manga again.
I did, I even linked to it. So if I'm wrong, then it should be an easy enough task to simply provide the page showing Ee and Tsunade actually doing something there.

Sure ? It seems to me that he simply acts as a shield
A shield facing away from the attack, with another person in the way of said attack? That makes no sense.

As I say:

If you like it, what can we do?
That's not an answer.

And then?

I think I'm right, isn't it? Or do you want to deny that at Silva Castle there was no massacre of nobles?
No, there was no "massacre". And the argument here was that the Nobles wouldn't fight back, which was disproven in that very chapter.

What? But if since he appeared he has done nothing but gloat over his wickedness and boast of having manipulated everything and everyone ....
There was literally one exposition upon his introduction and then another comment several chapters later. I really do feel like you;re just skimming the story.

And in the manga it is clearly stated that Black Zetsu is Kaguya's will, which she created specifically to be able to come back to life one day, they are the same being.
No, there was nothing saying she created him. We're literally told, in the link I provided, that Black Zetsu was birthed and then proceed to make his own plan to free his mother. The databook literally stated that Kaguya became a mindless beast, which is why she was so easy to seal. Not to mention that's not even how things work in the Narutoverse. We see with the tailed beast, and the various techniques that give chakra will, that the seperate being would just be another them. Why would a copy of Kaguya's mind become a different person, instead of just being her? But I suppose this can all be answered simply by showing the page where that claim was made.

?????

No ? So what good do they do to those who evoke them if they don't do what they are told to do?
They're blessing, as far as we've seen their mere presences enhances mana and even provide healing. And they're the ones who chose to give their power to, they're the ones who have to be asked.
 

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fact that you think there's no logic here only shows that you either didn't actually read the series,
On the contrary, it is precisely because I read the series that I can say it,

But it is enough to read any interview of the mangakas where they describe their work and modus operandi.

Oda is also the one who said that if he stroked a stroia to be beautiful it does not necessarily have to be coherent, and we are talking about one of the mangaka that are considered more meticulous than all.


Maybe because being an Emperor has more to it then a person's strength?
Actually, that's exactly how it is.


o complain about how things end, you have to first see how it ends.

????

No one here speaks of the end in fact, but of the facts themselves.


There is no difference. The Nobility always treated him badly
Actually yes, there is indeed.

Then the nobility never treated Asta badly, at most there is the example of Alecdora and Noelle's brothers at the banquet, but besides they did not go.

Here the situation seemed to me to be decidedly more serious and dramatic, it turned out and deals with greater care.


The damage was only at selected spots, the majority of the capital was undamaged,
Actually we have seen very well the capital to be destroyed in several places

ou do understand what the word "majority" means, yes?
Well from what we have seen, they are most of the royalty, others have not seen any of Silva or Vermilion.

The plot had the elves wanting to murder everyone,
Exactly, but it didn't make sense, at most I had to hate only those responsible for the massacre and not take it out on anyone, but in doing so the readers wouldn't have sided with me for Asta and co.


No it's not. I literally showed that the series makes it clear that they gain experience just by training.
Except there were no fights involved.


Exactly, and the fights are training,

Furthermore, Noelle's power ups almost always got through fighting against powerful opponents.


A shield facing away from the attack,
Here, indeed,


No, there was no "massacre"
We see that we have read two different manga, I have posted the pages.


There was literally one exposition upon his introduction and then another comment several chapters later.
I think you should really reread the manga, I remember that literally in every damn chapter or page in which it appears, there is a monologue or a sentence where he reiterates that he is bad and that he has manipulated everything and everyone ...



No, there was nothing saying she created him.
How what?

But ... he himself says he was created by her .....

So where the hell did it come out?


The databook literally stated that Kaguya became a mindless beast, which is why she was so easy to seal.
Aaaaaaaaannnnnnnddd ... so? How does this contradict the manga? I do not understand....


They're blessing, as far as we've seen their mere presences enhances mana and even provide healing
I still don't understand, what is the advantage you have of evoking entities that do not follow what you say or act on their own?
 

Rikudou King

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On the contrary, it is precisely because I read the series that I can say it,

But it is enough to read any interview of the mangakas where they describe their work and modus operandi.

Oda is also the one who said that if he stroked a stroia to be beautiful it does not necessarily have to be coherent, and we are talking about one of the mangaka that are considered more meticulous than all.
Clearly not, if you're claiming things directly contradicted by said manga.

Again, that's how the majority of writings are done. Very few authors write a story without key plot points already in mind. And you would have to actually show something is incoherent or inconsistent to ever make such a claim that an author is either of those.

Actually, that's exactly how it is.
No it's not, we're literally told what makes an Emperor. Again, if it was just strength, then Luffy wouldn't be considered the fifth one. It was specifically because of the size of his crew and his influence that earned him that title. A whole chapter was centered around this.

????

No one here speaks of the end in fact, but of the facts themselves.
You were literally claiming this arc was pointless, without even knowing where it was gonna go.

Actually yes, there is indeed.

Then the nobility never treated Asta badly, at most there is the example of Alecdora and Noelle's brothers at the banquet, but besides they did not go.

Here the situation seemed to me to be decidedly more serious and dramatic, it turned out and deals with greater care.
In every situation involving the Nobility and Asta, they have been shown looking down upon and disregarding him. Several of those situations also involved attempts on Asta's life. This situation was not much different, except for the fact that others came to his defense and rescue.

Actually we have seen very well the capital to be destroyed in several places
Right, which is what I said. Only certain spots were actually damaged, the rest of the capital was unharmed.

Well from what we have seen, they are most of the royalty, others have not seen any of Silva or Vermilion.
Even using that definition, you would still be talking about a minority.

Exactly, but it didn't make sense, at most I had to hate only those responsible for the massacre and not take it out on anyone, but in doing so the readers wouldn't have sided with me for Asta and co.
The entire point, was the elves were consumed by their desire for revenge. That's kind of a regular theme in shounens. And they blamed humanity itself for what happen. They didn't know who specifically did the act. Regardless, none of the people alive are responsible for the massacre. Everyone who would have been responsible would be long dead.

Exactly, and the fights are training,

Furthermore, Noelle's power ups almost always got through fighting against powerful opponents.
But we're not talking about fights. We're talking about actual training, as in practicing a move over and over again until it's mastered. And that's not true. Aside from her Valkyrie Dress magic she created on the spur of a moment, what power ups have she been shown gaining that we didn't see hinted at beforehand?

Here, indeed,
I don't understand this answer.

We see that we have read two different manga, I have posted the pages.
You posted a page where at best, half a dozen people were killed. That's not a massacre. Especially when it's unknown whether all involved were Nobility.

I think you should really reread the manga, I remember that literally in every damn chapter or page in which it appears, there is a monologue or a sentence where he reiterates that he is bad and that he has manipulated everything and everyone ...
Alright, I did just to ensure I am correct. I missed an addition time the chapter after his introduction and the later example was divided into two separate moments, but other then that I was correct. The first two chapters upon his introduction and then near the end of his defeat are the only times he talks about being evil and/or how he manipulated them, with that being five out of 100+ pages. The rest of his appearances are either him mocking them for trying to fight him, an explanation of his thoughts, or him using his magic.

The first time was upon his introduction, in Chp 196. In Chp 197, he does gloat after revealing he was the one who reincarnated the elves. Chp 198 is just him fighting and transforming Patri, before leaving. Chp 199 just continues the battle with Patri. Chp 200 is Asta breaking the magic on Patri. Chp 201 is the devil fighting Licht before Yami and Charla shows up and fight. Chp 202 continues that with the side event of the First Emperor awakening. Chp 203 continues the fighting. Chp 204 and 205 is Nero's flashback. Chp 206 is the reunion between Licth and the Magic Emperor. Chp 207 through 210 is them fighting the devil, with him only mentioning his manipulation here and here, after they actually injured him. Chp 211 and 212 is them defeating him.

How what?

But ... he himself says he was created by her .....

So where the hell did it come out?
No, he was born. He specifically refers to her as his mother, making it clear he's another child, like Hagoromo and Hamura. And something I missed before, he actually states the Juubi was her "will".

Aaaaaaaaannnnnnnddd ... so? How does this contradict the manga? I do not understand....
You're claiming that Kaguya came up with some plan to revive herself, when we're literally told she was mindless at that point. Something mindless isn't capable of making a plan, obviously.

I still don't understand, what is the advantage you have of evoking entities that do not follow what you say or act on their own?
Again, enhanced mana and potential healing also someone to tell them stuff they didn't know, like how Salamander told Fuegoleon where the other elves were without him asking. As repeatedly mentioned, they're referred to as a blessing. They're a bonus to those they choose to bless.
 

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If you don't know how to accept criticism it's not my fault.

The author is not perfect, understanding when he is wrong also helps to appreciate itself.
I don't even know how this became a point but whatever floats your boat.

Alright, I did just to ensure I am correct. I missed an addition time the chapter after his introduction and the later example was divided into two separate moments, but other then that I was correct. The first two chapters upon his introduction and then near the end of his defeat are the only times he talks about being evil and/or how he manipulated them, with that being five out of 100+ pages. The rest of his appearances are either him mocking them for trying to fight him, an explanation of his thoughts, or him using his magic.

The first time was upon his introduction, in Chp 196. In Chp 197, he does gloat after revealing he was the one who reincarnated the elves. Chp 198 is just him fighting and transforming Patri, before leaving. Chp 199 just continues the battle with Patri. Chp 200 is Asta breaking the magic on Patri. Chp 201 is the devil fighting Licht before Yami and Charla shows up and fight. Chp 202 continues that with the side event of the First Emperor awakening. Chp 203 continues the fighting. Chp 204 and 205 is Nero's flashback. Chp 206 is the reunion between Licth and the Magic Emperor. Chp 207 through 210 is them fighting the devil, with him only mentioning his manipulation here and here, after they actually injured him. Chp 211 and 212 is them defeating him.
Don't even bother explaining to him, he's stuck in that mindset.

Exactly, and the fights are training,

Furthermore, Noelle's power ups almost always got through fighting against powerful opponents.
Hmm, I seem to remember the following occurring through training

Obtaining "Sea Dragon's Lair" - She was told by Yami in chapter 57 page 15(on the WSJ App) to start training so they could enter the Water Temple. Which she did with on panel training until she eventually got it to work.

Learning "Mana Skin" - The entire visit to the volcano was for training purposes and we see her pick it up after seeing Yami and Charlotte do it.

The only "power up" would be Valkyrie Armor, the stuff I mentioned is basically applying your power to suit different needs.
 

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Clearly not, if you're claiming things directly contradicted by said manga.
???

Such as ? But if they contradict themselves ...


No it's not, we're literally told what makes an Emperor.
Strength, just look at the respective manga, Kaido and Big Mom are monsters that none of their respective submissions can challenge .... not surprisingly once Newgate dies his territory immediately falls into Teach's hands.


You were literally claiming this arc was pointless,
From what we have seen, I say yes

In every situation involving the Nobility and Asta, they have been shown looking down upon and disregarding him.

The only situations were the brawl, the banquet and the examination during the confrontation with Kirsch, but on none of the occasions Astar risked dying ... perhaps with Langris, but there Astar was not taken with him because he was noble, but because he tried to kill his brother


Even using that definition, you would still be talking about a minority.
Did you see any other Silva or Vermillion apart from the known ones?


The entire point, was the elves were consumed by their desire for revenge.

But from a logical point of view, it made no sense for them to deal with the poor of Clover, but only with nobles and royalty. Then obviously doing so no reader would have justified the fact that Astar and co had to stop them, here explained the why of the transformation of the elves in psychopaths. Then yes, in the story there is the explanation of the wicked hearts that drives the resurrected to violent behavior, but then why some proofs able to reason and put an end to indiscriminate hatred?

But we're not talking about fights.
Of course, given that as explained over and over again, fights are training, without forgetting that Noelle her major power ups (the Sea Dragon Roar and the Valkyrie Dress) earned them on the battlefield.

You posted a page where at best, half a dozen people were killed. That's

And those people are noble, so yes nobles were killed. Now if they're really as powerful as you say, why haven't they done anything to defend themselves? Explain.


The first time was upon his introduction, in Chp 196. In Chp 197, he does gloat after revealing he was the one who reincarnated the elves. Chp 198 is just him fighting and transforming Patri, before leaving. Chp 199 just continues the battle with Patri. Chp 200 is Asta breaking the magic on Patri. Chp 201 is the devil fighting Licht before Yami and Charla shows up and fight. Chp 202 continues that with the side event of the First Emperor awakening. Chp 203 continues the fighting. Chp 204 and 205 is Nero's flashback. Chp 206 is the reunion between Licth and the Magic Emperor. Chp 207 through 210 is them fighting the devil, with him only mentioning his manipulation here and here, after they actually injured him. Chp 211 and 212 is them defeating him.
Basically all this to say that ...

that's exactly what I said XD



He was born because one day Kaguya could come back.


You're claiming that Kaguya came up with some plan to revive herself,
And that's what happened in fact, she created Zetsu so she could one day come back.


Again, enhanced mana and potential healing also someone to tell them stuff they didn't know
But if they do not follow your orders and do their own thing, what's the point? And as if in Naruto Jiraya summoned a toad that then does not follow his orders ....


I don't even know how this became a point but whatever floats your boat.
It seems very clear to me.

All the works have defects

If you learn to recognize them well, maybe you can also appreciate more.

If instead he defends himself with sword in hand every lack or error of the author is only fanboys, and those are the scourge of every fandom.


Don't even bother explaining to him, he's stuck in that mindset.
Yes oh well, when you have no arguments ....

The only "power up" would be Valkyrie Armor,
Coff coff Sea Dragon Roir during the fight with Vetto coff coff....


coff coff Literally the first spell she learned during the fight with Heat coff coff
 

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Yes oh well, when you have no arguments ....



Coff coff Sea Dragon Roir during the fight with Vetto coff coff....


coff coff Literally the first spell she learned during the fight with Heat coff coff
1. I don't argue with a guy that sprouts the same nonsense over and over despite being told and shown otherwise.

2. Speak normally please. Power ups in most manga tend to have the user take complete control of a fight which only happened with Valkyrie Armor.
 

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1. I don't argue with a guy that sprouts the same nonsense over and over despite being told and shown otherwise.
So admit you have no arguments.

Speak normally please
?????


Power ups in most manga tend to have the user take complete control of a fight which only happened with Valkyrie Armor.
Coff coff Sea Dragon Roar during the fight with Vetto coff coff....


coff coff Literally the first spell she learned during the fight with Heat coff coff....
 

Rikudou King

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Don't even bother explaining to him, he's stuck in that mindset.
Yeah, I probably should...

???

Such as ? But if they contradict themselves ...
There is no contradictions... We're shown with both Harribel and Barragan that bankais mean nothing. Even the non-Vasto Lorde Espadas were capable of enduring the bankais they faced without instantly dying. So claiming they weren't a threat, or even Kubo didn't make them appear a threat when he had the heroes being pushed back again and again is ridiculous.

Strength, just look at the respective manga, Kaido and Big Mom are monsters that none of their respective submissions can challenge .... not surprisingly once Newgate dies his territory immediately falls into Teach's hands.
The manga itself states otherwise. Heck, the mentioned Blackbeard was already crazy strong well before the timeskip, but he didn't become an Emperor til he had territory and a huge crew. Again, we're outright told why Luffy was considered the fifth Emperor, and it wasn't because of power.

From what we have seen, I say yes
How can you know that before the arc has even shown a conclusion?

The only situations were the brawl, the banquet and the examination during the confrontation with Kirsch, but on none of the occasions Astar risked dying ... perhaps with Langris, but there Astar was not taken with him because he was noble, but because he tried to kill his brother
That doesn't change my comment. And Asta was at risk for death because he risked himself for others, a key characteristic.

Did you see any other Silva or Vermillion apart from the known ones?
No, which is why it's a minority.

But from a logical point of view, it made no sense for them to deal with the poor of Clover, but only with nobles and royalty. Then obviously doing so no reader would have justified the fact that Astar and co had to stop them, here explained the why of the transformation of the elves in psychopaths. Then yes, in the story there is the explanation of the wicked hearts that drives the resurrected to violent behavior, but then why some proofs able to reason and put an end to indiscriminate hatred?
It makes as much sense as them going after anyone. It would be the same justification, that they benefited from the actions of the past people's extermination of the elves. Them just going after the Nobles would still give the readers justification for siding against them, since as mentioned before, several of the main characters are Nobles.

Of course, given that as explained over and over again, fights are training, without forgetting that Noelle her major power ups (the Sea Dragon Roar and the Valkyrie Dress) earned them on the battlefield.
But we're not talking about fights, we're talking about it happening without having to fight, which is the entire point. And the Valkryie's Dress would not even count, she just manifested that out of nowhere. That's literally the opposite of training.

And those people are noble, so yes nobles were killed. Now if they're really as powerful as you say, why haven't they done anything to defend themselves? Explain.
What says that one known noble had magic powers? As we see later that very chapter, a Noble with magic would still attempt to defend themselves even if outpowered.

Basically all this to say that ...

that's exactly what I said XD
You claimed his every appearance involved him talking about being evil or manipulating people, when the majority of his appearances had nothing to do with talking about being evil or his manipulation...

He was born because one day Kaguya could come back.
That's not what the manga says. He wasn't born for any reason, he himself came up with the idea to bring her back.

And that's what happened in fact, she created Zetsu so she could one day come back.
But she didn't. The manga outright states otherwise. If she had the ability to plan, then she wouldn't have been mindless.

But if they do not follow your orders and do their own thing, what's the point? And as if in Naruto Jiraya summoned a toad that then does not follow his orders ....
Again, it's a bonus that enhances their mana and other things. And Jiraiya was shown having to ask the toads to help. Gamabunta was shown being stubborn and talking back to Jiraiya, and he had to convince Ma and Pa to go along with his plan against Pain. Heck, Gamabunta wasn't even gonna help Naruto against Gaara til his son asked him to. Even in the Narutoverse, summoners don't have control over what their summons do.

If instead he defends himself with sword in hand every lack or error of the author is only fanboys, and those are the scourge of every fandom.
I have pointed out several errors and plotholes in this series...
 

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So admit you have no arguments.


Coff coff Sea Dragon Roar during the fight with Vetto coff coff....


coff coff Literally the first spell she learned during the fight with Heat coff coff....
1. You're not bringing anything logical to the table for me to work with.

2. She could always do these but her upbringing messed her up.
 

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1. You're not bringing anything logical to the table for me to work with.
I could say the same about you then.


2. She could always do these but her upbringing messed her up.
But if we have literally seen that they are two spells born from nothing due to the need of the moment ....
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

There is no contradictions...
There are, just read the manga, And there is nothing wrong to admit it, just as there is nothing wrong to admit that Kubo and Tabata write the story as it goes on without a precise plan,

Come to clarify, Kishimoto has repeatedly stated that when he wrote the first chapter of Naruto, he had a story up to the eighth, finished the first volume, he thought he was not going beyond the fifteenth, so I think it's clear that much of what we read he was born during construction and with the help of someone.


The manga itself states otherwise. Heck, the mentioned Blackbeard was already crazy strong well before the timeskip, but he didn't become an Emperor til he had territory and a huge crew. Again, we're outright told why Luffy was considered the fifth Emperor, and it wasn't because of power.
Luffy is considered the fifth emperor only by Morgans. His confrontation with Kaido suggests the exact opposite.


How can you know that before the arc has even shown a conclusion?
Same answer, then should nothing be commented anymore?


And Asta was at risk for death because he risked himself for others,
I do not think that on those occasions Asta risked death ...


No, which is why it's a minority.
Which in the same way are the majority of royal houses


What says that one known noble had magic powers? As we see later that very chapter, a Noble with magic would still attempt to defend themselves even if outpowered.
So why hasn't anyone defeated some elves since they apparently are so powerful that they scare Julius?


Them just going after the Nobles would still give the readers justification for siding against them, since as mentioned before, several of the main characters are Nobles.
But most of the nobles seen in the series are clearly negative characters, the few "good" nobles then seen are almost all possessed by the elves ....
 

Rikudou King

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There are, just read the manga, And there is nothing wrong to admit it, just as there is nothing wrong to admit that Kubo and Tabata write the story as it goes on without a precise plan,

Come to clarify, Kishimoto has repeatedly stated that when he wrote the first chapter of Naruto, he had a story up to the eighth, finished the first volume, he thought he was not going beyond the fifteenth, so I think it's clear that much of what we read he was born during construction and with the help of someone.
There aren't, not the way you're claiming. If there was, then it would be an easy enough task to show a panel of what was actually being contradicted, instead of trying to brush it off by saying "read the manga" since I clearly have shown I have by posting links to the actual manga. You have yet to even answer the question of how Barragan and Harribel tanking bankai doesn't disprove your whole claim. And unless you have actual proof of that claim, it's ridiculous to claim they wrote a story without a plan. We know where Kubo had plan and wrote up to, and it was well after the point where you complain about. And saying that Tabata didn't plan this stuff with the devils out is silly when the very first chapter sets up the idea of them being the main villain.

How does a completely separate author prove anything about the ones being spoken about? Unless you have comments from them, you still have nothing.

Luffy is considered the fifth emperor only by Morgans. His confrontation with Kaido suggests the exact opposite.
The chapter clearly showed the idea was spreading, and that clearly wouldn't be the case, or even be able to be argued, if it wasn't the actual criteria. How does his confrontation with Kaido suggest that? If you're claiming because he lost, Luffy also lost against Big Mom, yet that clearly didn't affect the declaration.

Same answer, then should nothing be commented anymore?
You're not commenting, you're complaining about something that hasn't even been shown. No one has a problem with you just commenting on the chapters themselves.

I do not think that on those occasions Asta risked death ...
If Asta is threaten with death or in a fight with a serious opponent, then there's the risk of death.

Which in the same way are the majority of royal houses
That was not your original argument, but sure, even though it still not an extermination, if we only factor in the handful of characters we know then they would be a majority.

So why hasn't anyone defeated some elves since they apparently are so powerful that they scare Julius?
It's not "apparently" when we literally have Julius in the manga stating that they are dangerous. For someone who tells others to read, you sure seem to not be paying attention to what was being shown. And who says they didn't? We were shown the elves being held back before they got exorcised, so people were clearly capable of fighting back, and until stated either way, you can't say what happen.

But most of the nobles seen in the series are clearly negative characters, the few "good" nobles then seen are almost all possessed by the elves ....
What? Most of the good Nobles weren't possessed, and none of the characters we would actually care about.
 

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Daily reminder

Read the official translation so your arguments won't contain incorrect info
 

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There aren't, not the way you're claiming.
Yes oh well, let's continue denying .....

Then I can understand defending Tabata, but Kubo, really?

However it is enough to read any interview with any mangaka to understand their working method ....


The chapter clearly showed the idea was spreading, and that clearly wouldn't be the case,
The fact remains that the appointment comes only from Morgans, who "inflated" the news. For the Yonkou themselves or for the navy, Luffy is far from being a Kaido peer.


If Asta is threaten with death or in a fight with a serious opponent
So do you think Nozelle would have killed Asta for having attacked the brothers?


It's not "apparently" when we literally have Julius in the manga stating that they are dangerous.
Again, an account and to say it, an account is to show it. The manga are visual mediums, you have to show me what happens and show me the facts, if not they are just words.

Most of the good Nobles weren't possessed,
Only the Vermillion and some Silva (I doubt we can consider Solido and Nebra good)
 

Rikudou King

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Yes oh well, let's continue denying .....

Then I can understand defending Tabata, but Kubo, really?

However it is enough to read any interview with any mangaka to understand their working method ....
Until you actually prove proof to suppose your claims, they're not gonna be accepted. We know where Kudo had Bleach planned to, and you have yet to show differently. Their writing method is pretty much the same as any writers, with major parts plan out beforehand. You brought up Kishimoto while ignoring that his change in plans happen arcs beforehand. They don't just make up the story as they write usually. Rumiko Takahashi is the only mangaka I know who has stated that she only had things planned out a few chapters ahead.

The fact remains that the appointment comes only from Morgans, who "inflated" the news. For the Yonkou themselves or for the navy, Luffy is far from being a Kaido peer.
Kaido and Big Mom have remarked that Luffy couldn't defeat Kaido, which is just about his own strength. None of the characters have brushed back or questioned the idea that he another Emperor. And the Marines consider Luffy a major threat even before that point.

So do you think Nozelle would have killed Asta for having attacked the brothers?
Why else would Fuegoleon step in to stop him?

Again, an account and to say it, an account is to show it. The manga are visual mediums, you have to show me what happens and show me the facts, if not they are just words.
We've seen the strength of the magic of the Nobility through various characters. The only one who has ever been shown "unimpressive" has been the King. And we saw Damnatio in action upon his introduction. So while wanting to see the threat they pose is fine, the implication has clearly been displayed.

Only the Vermillion and some Silva (I doubt we can consider Solido and Nebra good)
So aside from Klaus, Charlotte, Rill, and Marx, who were these good Nobles that were possessed? As said, most of the good ones weren't.
 

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Until you actually prove proof to suppose your claims
The proofs are there, just read the manga and the interviews where the mangakas talk about their working method and the influence that the editors have on them.

If you want to deny it, your business.

Kaido and Big Mom have remarked that Luffy couldn't defeat Kaido, which is just about his own strength. None of the characters have brushed back or questioned the idea that he another Emperor
In fact we see how Kaido treats Luffy as an equal of him XD

Why else would Fuegoleon step in to stop him?
I don't know, maybe to take it back? If indeed Nozelle is one willing to kill a commoner if he thinks that he deserves it then I don't see how he can be considered a captain

We've seen the strength of the magic of the Nobility through various characters.
But they are all nobles who fight, so magic knights ...

[QUOTE="Rikudou King, post: 5132088, member: 91139]
So aside from Klaus, Charlotte, Rill, and Marx,
[/QUOTE]


They are not royality
 

Rikudou King

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The proofs are there, just read the manga and the interviews where the mangakas talk about their working method and the influence that the editors have on them.

If you want to deny it, your business.
I've read the mangas. If you're gonna claim I'm missing something, then just show the page/example. And the way one Mangaka does things does not mean that's the way other Mangakas do things. Unless you have an interview by those Mangakas stating such a thing, you're making things up about them.

In fact we see how Kaido treats Luffy as an equal of him XD
Kaido attacking Luffy doesn't disprove anything... Kaido and Big Mom literally attempted to murder each other! Kaido doesn't show respect to anyone. And respect is never given before it's actually earn in this series, as we saw when Luffy earned Whitebeard's.

I don't know, maybe to take it back? If indeed Nozelle is one willing to kill a commoner if he thinks that he deserves it then I don't see how he can be considered a captain
How does that play into this situation? And when have we seen the treatment of the commoners play into being a Captain? Langris is a vice-captain and he was a horrible person. And in case you forgot, Nozel was gonna "punish" Asta during the Decoration ceremony before again, Fuegoleon stepped in.

But they are all nobles who fight, so magic knights ...
We've seen examples before they even became a Magic Knight, i.e. Mimosa's skills as a child. Not to mention, we were literally shown with the entrance exam that they had to already be skilled at fighting before they could even become magic Knights...

They are not royality
We were talking about good nobles, who you claimed were possessed by the elves...
 
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