Discussion Connection between Natsu and Acnologia?

[kkck]

Well, the thread is simple. Simply discussing what might be the ancient connection between natsu and acknologia. We already know natsu is END in some form or context however that does not really clarify his connection to zeref or acknologia. For a bit of context:

The manga showed acknologia in ancient tablets fighting a fire user. Perhaps the fire user was natsu or natsu in a presumably etherius form. In either case it would explain why acknologia would mobilize against FT twice, in either case the tablet would seem to hint that that guy could fight acknolgia. Or at least thwart him.

When zirconis spoke of the past the presumed siluete of acknologia kinda resembled natsu. Now, obviously natsu won't be END and acknologia (plot twist?) but the similarity does hint at a connection between them. Interesting we can make the case that in itself natsu and acknologia seem to have opposing goals. So far acknologia has fought to protect zeref and has acted so as to prevent end whose sole purpose is ending zeref. In turn acknologia was somehow made by zeref which seems to suggest he is interested in keeping the guy alive.


There might be a few more things worth mentioning although that is plenty of context for the time being. Anyways, for me this heavily hints at natsu and acknologia having a familial connection. Perhaps father and son or brothers. If we look back at rave there was a basically ancient conflict between the raregroove and the glory guys. A duality of sorts. Perhaps natsu and acknologia have something similar going on. However with the context given here it kinda seems like they would be related and eventually took opposing paths.

Acknologia took a path of destruction. Natsu has so far taken a path to save those he cares about. Acknologia fights to protect zeref for some reason. Natsu fights to defeat zeref. Acknologia turned into a dragon. Natsu can seemingly turn into a particularly powerful demon.

Now assuming a familial relationship the one that would make the most sense to be is that acknologia is actually natsu's brother. I was thinking father but that does not really work all that well within then context of the duality thing. So acknologia is natsu's brother who took an opposing path to natsu.

Any thoughts?

 

[SharkBait]

Re: Connection between Natsu and Acknologia?

I think they are brothers.

 

[DemonKing888]

Re: Connection between Natsu and Acknologia?

I had a funny conversation with a friend, He said what if Acnologia was really female before becoming a dragon and Zeref had a relationship with her. Natsu could be the biological child of two of the most powerful mages in the world. Now this seems very unlikely but it would be such a crazy plot twist. What if Zeref turned his very own son into a demon this could of enrage Acnologia, feeling betrayed choose to go on a rampage after losing her child, living in a world of war between man and dragons she felt that it was the world that needed to pay for taking her child away and could be why Acnologiais so hell bent on chasing down Zeref. Why she want's to destory E.N.D could be a sick form of motherly love, not wanting her baby to be a monster. But her mind is twisted and corrupt now.

That's one crackpot theory, As for a simpler one Natsu as E.N.D could of been model after Acnologia, Zeref's best friend a person he admire greatly. Acnologia's human form could look exactly like Natsu but with maybe a different hair color.

At this point it's safe to say E.N.D is Zeref's son, with Zeref wanting Natsu to surpass him something every father wants for their son. Where Acnologia fits in should be a very crazy plot twist.

My friend thinks "Acnologia" could be a girls name.

 

[Holt]

Re: Connection between Natsu and Acknologia?

Its difficult too say. I mean we can't even fully establish the relationship between END and Zeref/Igneel. However, acnologia and END were probably rivals of some form.

Anyway, they might have both been trained to some extent by zeref. I know its likely he bestowed powers on both, but I think he might have also personally tutored them in some form.
Eventually, acnologia became quite evil and perhaps played a similar role to what hades was trying to do on tenrou island. Going by END fighting Igneel, its possible END might have been trying to kill/defeat acnologia back then. Igneel decided to be a sort of peace maker and tried to dissolve the conflict. Also during the tartaros arc, Igneel seemed to be trying to dissuade acnologia from fighting END, even going so far as to say "the one you fear is no more".

I think when acnologia became a dragon, END fought and defeated him or atleast bested/injured him. END was equally vile and perhaps there was a clash in ego between him and acnologia or some other reason.
I think Igneel then intervened and tried to prevent anymore killing which led to Igneel and END fighting. Igneel won but ultimately couldn't bring himself to kill END (perhaps he saw some form of humanity in him). Eventually END (the etherious demon itself) was sealed in a book and partly separated from Natsu. Personally, I think in the past, Igneel might have been the strongest existence outside zeref. I think he could defeat both acnologia and END (as well as all the other dragons ofcourse). However, he and the other dragons later got their souls reaped by acnologia. Infact, I dare say acnologia was involved in END's sealing. It was supposedly a very powerful magic seal that couldn't be broken. Face was supposed to wipe out all magic thereby inadvertently breaking the magic seal as well. I'm thinking, the dragons soul acnologia reaped was used to this extent, that is, sealing END. Acnologia might not have directly sealed him, but I think he played a big part.

Perhaps what Natsu would have to fight and overcome is his Etherious side which was removed from him. So its possible gray would assist in this as well.

Acnologia and END therefore would be rivals at least (or old friends before a fall out). Although I think them being brothers is quite a stretch.

 

[M3J]

I think END was created by Zeref to kill him, but END was also a threat to Acnologia given that if a bein is powerful enough to kill Zeref, he can most likely take out Acnologia. Zeref either knew Acnologia's strengths as well, or the strength he gave to END was just accidentally enough to scare Acnologia.

 

[Mohsen]

I think END was created by Zeref to kill him, but END was also a threat to Acnologia given that if a bein is powerful enough to kill Zeref, he can most likely take out Acnologia. Zeref either knew Acnologia's strengths as well, or the strength he gave to END was just accidentally enough to scare Acnologia.

I doubt END was created able to wield DS magic. So how was END a threat to any Dragon if we know one can't fight a Dragon without DS magic? END only through Igneel become a threat to the Dragons cause Igneel taught him DS magic. In the past END wouldn't have been able to put a dent on Acnologia's scales.

 

[kkck]

I think END was created by Zeref to kill him, but END was also a threat to Acnologia given that if a bein is powerful enough to kill Zeref, he can most likely take out Acnologia. Zeref either knew Acnologia's strengths as well, or the strength he gave to END was just accidentally enough to scare Acnologia.

To be honest I don't see how END can be a threat to acknologia itself. The power difference we have seen between dragons and humans so far is nothing short of absurd. The weakest dragons we have seen so far are the ones that appeared during the eclipse events and yet any of them was easily more powerful than makarov or laxus. We are not talking about just a small difference though, we are talking about each dragon being capable of fderizing makarov. Acknologia is as far as we know overwhelmingly more powerful than any of the dragons there. The manga made the point that none there was as powerful as acknologia at least. How many hundreds of times stronger than the strongest people the manga has shown does zeref have to be to match acknologia, the strongest dragon by far? The scale of the whole thing seems absurd. To me the issue acknologia has with end seems to be more along the lines of end being an actual threat to zeref. Unless end is really a demon with DS magic in which case he would be a threat to zeref and acknologia without actually having to match the sheer overwhelming raw power a dragon has.

 

[Holt]

Well END supposedly fought acnologia in the past. Even though he couldn't have had DS magic back then. I'm guessing if END is powerful enough to not only resist zeref's death magic that oozes out every time, but even strong enough to potentially go toe to toe with zeref and defeat him, then he's probably strong enough to take on acnologia. I mean in that picture, acnologia used a dragon's roar at literally point blank range, and END simply blocked using a somewhat thin wall of flame. Frankly, I'm of the opinion that when END and acnologia fought in the past, END matched him even without DS magic and maybe even bested him. Plus igneel specifically said "the one you fear". That's a lot. I think acnologia genuinely fears END or sees him as a threat and not just because he is destined to kill zeref.

 

[M3J]

I doubt END was created able to wield DS magic. So how was END a threat to any Dragon if we know one can't fight a Dragon without DS magic? END only through Igneel become a threat to the Dragons cause Igneel taught him DS magic. In the past END wouldn't have been able to put a dent on Acnologia's scales.

What makes one able to wield DS magic? I dunno if one is born with the ability or if it comes to them in a way. But wasn't END a demon? I don't see why a demon created or made to beat Zeref doesn't have a chance against Acnologia.

But I'm under the assumption that END was made/existed waaay before Natsu was born.

Where is the proof for your claims? Assuming the manga didn't outright say that END was born as Natsu somehow.

To be honest I don't see how END can be a threat to acknologia itself. The power difference we have seen between dragons and humans so far is nothing short of absurd. The weakest dragons we have seen so far are the ones that appeared during the eclipse events and yet any of them was easily more powerful than makarov or laxus. We are not talking about just a small difference though, we are talking about each dragon being capable of fderizing makarov. Acknologia is as far as we know overwhelmingly more powerful than any of the dragons there. The manga made the point that none there was as powerful as acknologia at least. How many hundreds of times stronger than the strongest people the manga has shown does zeref have to be to match acknologia, the strongest dragon by far? The scale of the whole thing seems absurd. To me the issue acknologia has with end seems to be more along the lines of end being an actual threat to zeref. Unless end is really a demon with DS magic in which case he would be a threat to zeref and acknologia without actually having to match the sheer overwhelming raw power a dragon has.

Yeah, but I've always assumed END was a demon because it was created by Zeref, and there was Book of END or Zeref.

But why did Igneel talk about Acnologia being scared of END? And let's be real, the manga has claimed a lot of enemies were strong or uber strong, but Natsu somehow managed to win thanks to asspull, nakama, or getting powerup. END itself doesn't necessarily have to be stronger than Acnologia to win, just have more conviction.

Why would Acnologia care if END is a threat to Zeref? Maybe Zeref is the reason why Acnologia exists as it does?


What I'm assuming:

Zeref created END ages before Natsu was born
END is a demon
Zeref likely did something that made Natsu END or END become Natsu for one reason or another
END is or has the potential to be on an even footing with Zeref, give or take
Acnologia fears END's power as it could be the only thing to challenge it


This is based on my understanding of what I read, which is likely wrong as I haven't really reread those chapters. But if it is, I would like links.

 

[kkck]

Yeah, but I've always assumed END was a demon because it was created by Zeref, and there was Book of END or Zeref.

But why did Igneel talk about Acnologia being scared of END? And let's be real, the manga has claimed a lot of enemies were strong or uber strong, but Natsu somehow managed to win thanks to asspull, nakama, or getting powerup. END itself doesn't necessarily have to be stronger than Acnologia to win, just have more conviction.

Why would Acnologia care if END is a threat to Zeref? Maybe Zeref is the reason why Acnologia exists as it does?


What I'm assuming:

Zeref created END ages before Natsu was born
END is a demon
Zeref likely did something that made Natsu END or END become Natsu for one reason or another
END is or has the potential to be on an even footing with Zeref, give or take
Acnologia fears END's power as it could be the only thing to challenge it


This is based on my understanding of what I read, which is likely wrong as I haven't really reread those chapters. But if it is, I would like links.

End is without a doubt a demon. My point is simply that the power scale on which the dragons work is entirely different from how humans handle themselves. The stronger humans we have seen are fodder to a dragon so far. Any dragon for that matter. Demons themselves are pretty powerful as far as we have seen. And while all are extremely powerful it does not seem like their power is that much greater than what humans can get. Even mard geer's power was matched, if not surpassed, by natsu's dragon force. End having the sheer raw power to match acknologia without a specific magic which allowed him to do so would be weird IMO. Its simply too much power, far beyond any human, DS or demon so far... Matching any dragon with raw power alone actually is an overwhelming achievement to put it mildly.

How can end have existed before natsu if natsu is end? Odds are natsu was present in the ancient war and for whatever reason zeref tried to turn him into a demon. Then igneel saved him. To me it makes more sense than end itself presents a threat to zeref rather than to acknologia directly. And acknologia, for whatever reason, needs zeref....

 

[dark123]

Natsu fought with Acnologia in ancient war and here's the proof

Spoiler

Answer is simple. Acnologia was Zeref's first experiment and he turned him into dragon but something went wrong and Zeref changed his mind. Later he just turned another dragon slayer( Natsu) into demon.
But we dont know one thing. Does this picture show us fight between Natsu and Acnologia before he was turned into demon or after. If before we can assume why Natsu became demon. Even If Natsu and Ancologia were equals after acnologia was turned to dragon he became stronger so to stop him Natsu was turned to demon dragon slayer(END) and that is why acnologia is afraid of END.

Etherious comes from Aether- The god of light and air.

I will paste here some info about it.

Spoiler

Word Etherious has its origins in word "Aether".

Aether was the personification of the upper air, or the air of the gods. He was also the personification of the bright light that shone from his sister, Hemera, goddess of daylight.

According to legend, during the daytime, Aether's bright body shone all over the world. But at night, Nyx came out of her home in Tartarus and drew Erebos over Aether to cover him up. Erebos would make it night time and Aether would be covered up. After Nyx went back to her home, Hemera would emerge and scatter Erebos to let Aether show and let it be day again.

Aether: Roman Name - Ether
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Discover the myths surrounding Aether, the ancient, Primordial Greek god of light and air. Aether was the son of Erebus and Nyx and the primeval god of the shining light of the blue sky. He provided the atmosphere surrounding the earth which mortals could freely breathe, and without which they would perish. Aether and his sister Hemera brought light and day to the world. Together they dethroned their parents, and seized the supreme power. They created Eros, Tartarus, Pontus and Gaia.
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In Greek mythology, Aether, also known as Acmon, is one of the primordial deities, the first-born elementals. His name means "light" in ancient Greek. Aether is the personification and elemental god of "the bright, glowing upper air of heaven - the substance of light". He embodies the pure upper air that the gods breathe, as opposed to the normal air breathed by mortals. Like Tartarus and Erebos, Aether may have had shrines in Hella, but he had no temples, and it is unlikely that he had a cult.

In Hesiod's Theogony, Aether was the son of Erebus and Nyx, and the brother of Hemera. The aether was also known as Zeus's defensive wall, the boundary that locked Tartarus from the rest of the cosmos.

Accoding to the poet Alcman, Aether was the father of Ouranos, the god of the sky. While Aether was the personification of the upper air, Ouranos was literally the sky itself, composed of a solid dome of brass.

Aristophanes states that Aether was the son of Erebus. However, Damascius says that Aether, Erebus and Chaos were siblings, and the offspring of Chronos (Father Time).

According to Epiphanius, the world began as a cosmic egg, encircled by Time and Inevitability (most likely Chronos and Ananke) in serpent fashion. Together they constricted the egg, squeezing its matter with great force, until the world divided into two hemispheres. After that, the atoms sorted themselves out.

... The lighter and finer ones floated above and became the Bright Air (Aether and/or Ouranos) and the rarefied Wind (Chaos), while the heavier and dirtier atoms sank and became the Earth (Gaia) and the Ocean (Pontos and/or Oceanus).

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Aether - The Soul of the World

Greek mythology portrays Aether as one of the first-born Gods of the elements. He is one of the Protogenoi Gods, meaning that he was one of the first to come into existence. Aether represents and actually is the “upper sky” which makes up all of the heavens and the unlimited space surrounding the heavens. It is said that Aether is pure air that is fit for the Gods to breathe unlike the air that is found near the earth that is considered to be gloomy by the Gods and unfit for them. He protects this air and prevents it from becoming polluted in anyway. It is so pure that it would help to refresh and stimulate the Gods.

Hesiod’s Theogony states that his brother was Hemera and that they were the offspring of Erebus (the darkness of the underworld) and Nyx (the darkness of the night). Aether was called the “soul of world” because it is believed that all life as we know it originated from him. The name Aether means “upper air” “light” or “clear sky” which is a little ironic considering he is the offspring of Erebus and Nyx.

Aether is said to be illuminated with the heavenly light that is so bright that traces of it can filter down to the earth when the skies are clear. He floats high up above AER which is the God of the air in the lower atmosphere. It is said that during the night Nyx will pull the curtains of gloom tightly around the earth to allow the darkness of Erebus to move up and across the earth. Then in the morning when the darkness begins to fade, Aether sister Hemera will carry the gloomy mist away on a soothing breeze so the glow of all his beauty and radiance can be seen by the earth again.

It is believed that Aether severed as a defensive wall for Zeus in his battle to take over the cosmos from the Titians and that it blocked Tartarus from entering the cosmos during this time. This could have been a factor that helped this new generation of Gods beat the Titans and take control of the universe. Aether is referred to as the air that surrounds the clouds, mountain peaks, sun, moon and the stars. He has a female companion named Aithre who is the Titanis of the “Clear Blue Sky”. She is also the mother of both the sun and the moon. It is believed that the stars were created by the intense fires of Aether.

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The word αἰθήρ (aithēr) in Homeric Greek means "pure, fresh air" or "clear sky". In Greek mythology, it was thought to be the pure essence that the gods breathed, filling the space where they lived, analogous to the air breathed by mortals. It is also personified as a deity, Aether, the son of Erebus and Nyx in traditional Greek mythology. Aether is related to αἴθω "to incinerate", and intransitive "to burn, to shine" (related is the name Aithiopes (Ethiopians), meaning "people with a burnt (black) visage").
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Connected also to Empyrean.
Empyrean, from the Medieval Latin empyreus, an adaptation of the Ancient Greek ἔμπυρος empyrus "in or on the fire (pyr)", properly Empyrean Heaven, is the place in the highest heaven, which in ancient cosmologies was supposed to be occupied by the element of fire (or aether in Aristotle's natural philosophy).
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In Greek mythology, Aether or Aither (Æthere, Ancient Greek: Αἰθήρ, pronounced [aitʰɛ̌ːr]) is one of the primordial deities. Aether is the personification of the upper air.[1][2] He embodies the pure upper air that the gods breathe, as opposed to the normal air (ἀήρ, aer) breathed by mortals. Like Tartarus and Erebus, Aether may have had shrines in ancient Greece, but he had no temples and it is unlikely that he had a cult.
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Orphic Hymn 5 to Ether (trans. Taylor) (Greek hymns C3rd B.C. to 2nd A.D.) :
"To Aither (Ether), Fumigation from Saffron. O ever untamed Aither, raised on high, in Zeus’ dominions, ruler of the sky; great portion of the stars (astron) and lunar light, and of the sun, with dazzling lustre bright; all-taming power, ethereal shining fire, whose vivid blasts the heat of life inspire; the world’s best element, light-bearing power, with starry radiance shining, splendid flower; o hear my suppliant’s prayer, and may thy frame be ever innocent, serene and tame."

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By reading this, we can assume a lot of things.

 

[Mohsen]

What makes one able to wield DS magic? I dunno if one is born with the ability or if it comes to them in a way. But wasn't END a demon? I don't see why a demon created or made to beat Zeref doesn't have a chance against Acnologia.

But I'm under the assumption that END was made/existed waaay before Natsu was born.

Where is the proof for your claims? Assuming the manga didn't outright say that END was born as Natsu somehow.

Yeah, but I've always assumed END was a demon because it was created by Zeref, and there was Book of END or Zeref.

But why did Igneel talk about Acnologia being scared of END? And let's be real, the manga has claimed a lot of enemies were strong or uber strong, but Natsu somehow managed to win thanks to asspull, nakama, or getting powerup. END itself doesn't necessarily have to be stronger than Acnologia to win, just have more conviction.

Why would Acnologia care if END is a threat to Zeref? Maybe Zeref is the reason why Acnologia exists as it does?


What I'm assuming:

Zeref created END ages before Natsu was born
END is a demon
Zeref likely did something that made Natsu END or END become Natsu for one reason or another
END is or has the potential to be on an even footing with Zeref, give or take
Acnologia fears END's power as it could be the only thing to challenge it


This is based on my understanding of what I read, which is likely wrong as I haven't really reread those chapters. But if it is, I would like links.

First of all we have to consider Acnologia as a dragon and not a human anymore. The only way to learn DS magic so far that were shown are either being implanted with a Dragon lacryma or being taught by an actual dragon which means receiving the power from a dragon.
END was said to be a curse user. Nothing besides DS magic functions against dragons. So how can END even be considered a threat to Acnologia in the past. I understand now cause Natsu is END but 400 years ago before Natsu tried to challenge Igneel he couldn't wield DS magic and it was Igneel who gave him that power.

 

[M3J]

End is without a doubt a demon. My point is simply that the power scale on which the dragons work is entirely different from how humans handle themselves. The stronger humans we have seen are fodder to a dragon so far. Any dragon for that matter. Demons themselves are pretty powerful as far as we have seen. And while all are extremely powerful it does not seem like their power is that much greater than what humans can get. Even mard geer's power was matched, if not surpassed, by natsu's dragon force. End having the sheer raw power to match acknologia without a specific magic which allowed him to do so would be weird IMO. Its simply too much power, far beyond any human, DS or demon so far... Matching any dragon with raw power alone actually is an overwhelming achievement to put it mildly.

And thus, why would Natsu be lacking the power if he can become a demon dragon slayer? I'm sure almost everyone is fodder to Acnologia though, it's shown to be on a completely different level, beating dragons even before it became a dragon. If dragon slayers are incapable of slaying dragons, then they have no reason to call themselves dragon slayers.

Natsu has plot on his side, but he also would have the power of a demon, dragon slayer, and nakama to boost his fighting power to the point that he'd be able to beat Zeref and could be a match for Acnologia.

Raw power is not necessary though, just strong magic and resilience.

How can end have existed before natsu if natsu is end? Odds are natsu was present in the ancient war and for whatever reason zeref tried to turn him into a demon. Then igneel saved him. To me it makes more sense than end itself presents a threat to zeref rather than to acknologia directly. And acknologia, for whatever reason, needs zeref....

Magic. END could have existed, but Zeref did something that sealed END away or put him in Natsu or rebirth him probably for a future fight or something. Isn't Natsu about 19? How can he be present in the ancient war, then? Though, I didn't consider that Acnologia might be protecting Zeref out of selfishness rather than because END was a possible risk.

First of all we have to consider Acnologia as a dragon and not a human anymore. The only way to learn DS magic so far that were shown are either being implanted with a Dragon lacryma or being taught by an actual dragon which means receiving the power from a dragon.
END was said to be a curse user. Nothing besides DS magic functions against dragons. So how can END even be considered a threat to Acnologia in the past. I understand now cause Natsu is END but 400 years ago before Natsu tried to challenge Igneel he couldn't wield DS magic and it was Igneel who gave him that power.

I am considering Acnologia as a dragon, and it's the most powerful dragon that we know. Even as a dragon slayer it was pretty strong, killing dragons. But why does that mean dragon slayers lack the potential to beat dragons?

But how can being taught by an actual dragon help? Does one have to drink its blood, give the dragon its blood, or what? And where was it said that only dragon slayer magic affects dragons? That's like saying only demon slayer magic affects demons, even though Natsu won with dragon force.

 

[Holt]

Its not only acnologia that killed dragons. We were made to understand that the dragon slayers changed the tide of the war and after some time, started killing dragons on both sides. Its just that none did so more than acnologia. I dunno if its because this current 1st Gen DS is just that weak. Being taught DS magic directly from a dragon has to be the best option. Since Gajeel, Natsu, Wendy, Sting and Rogue are the only ones we know (taught by dragons), there's probably a reason why they couldn't defeat the dragons. Maybe they just are too weak compared to the original generation, or perhaps its because they were taught by dragons who weren't at full power (since acnologia reaped their souls), or maybe the dragons residing in them inadvertently limited their power in the process of creating antibodies to prevent dragonficiation or they are still too young/inexperienced.

Between Mard Geer and Igneel saying that acnologia fears END, I do think END is really a match. Is there really any reason for acnologia to want to intervene because of zeref and not because END is a threat? I mean, it there's someone powerful enough to take out the most evil and powerful mage in history (Zeref), then its not really difficult to deduce that END is a match for anyone.

 

[Mohsen]

And thus, why would Natsu be lacking the power if he can become a demon dragon slayer? I'm sure almost everyone is fodder to Acnologia though, it's shown to be on a completely different level, beating dragons even before it became a dragon. If dragon slayers are incapable of slaying dragons, then they have no reason to call themselves dragon slayers.

Natsu has plot on his side, but he also would have the power of a demon, dragon slayer, and nakama to boost his fighting power to the point that he'd be able to beat Zeref and could be a match for Acnologia.

Raw power is not necessary though, just strong magic and resilience.


Magic. END could have existed, but Zeref did something that sealed END away or put him in Natsu or rebirth him probably for a future fight or something. Isn't Natsu about 19? How can he be present in the ancient war, then? Though, I didn't consider that Acnologia might be protecting Zeref out of selfishness rather than because END was a possible risk.


I am considering Acnologia as a dragon, and it's the most powerful dragon that we know. Even as a dragon slayer it was pretty strong, killing dragons. But why does that mean dragon slayers lack the potential to beat dragons?

But how can being taught by an actual dragon help? Does one have to drink its blood, give the dragon its blood, or what? And where was it said that only dragon slayer magic affects dragons? That's like saying only demon slayer magic affects demons, even though Natsu won with dragon force.

On the page that is linked you can clearly see that the dragons did give the DS a part of their power/soul or whatever it is that the dragon is giving that DS.
http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/301/13

Besides that there are still some contradicting points in the whole dragon war fiasco. We have on one side Zirconis who says a few DS went crazy and started to turn even on the dragons on their side and killing them and the one who killed everyone was Acnologia. And we have Igneel question if humans will ever be able to surpass dragon during the GMG's. IF Acnologia and other DS actually were able to kill dragons wouldn't that mean humans already surpassed dragons long ago? Or did Igneel consider humans weak cause they never reached his power-level?

@Holt: Well Marde and Igneel said that Acnologia fears END but Acnologia already answered it by saying he fears nothing and that he is the king of dragons. Actually at the time I tend to think that Igneel is the least trusworthy source at the time with his contradicting statements.

 

[Lozmaster]

Besides that there are still some contradicting points in the whole dragon war fiasco. We have on one side Zirconis who says a few DS went crazy and started to turn even on the dragons on their side and killing them and the one who killed everyone was Acnologia. And we have Igneel question if humans will ever be able to surpass dragon during the GMG's. IF Acnologia and other DS actually were able to kill dragons wouldn't that mean humans already surpassed dragons long ago? Or did Igneel consider humans weak cause they never reached his power-level?

It's not contradictory...
What they are probably referring to is that fact that the dragons were unable to stop Acnologia. If humans manage to kill him, they will have surpassed dragons. Simple.

@Holt: Well Marde and Igneel said that Acnologia fears END but Acnologia already answered it by saying he fears nothing and that he is the king of dragons. Actually at the time I tend to think that Igneel is the least trusworthy source at the time with his contradicting statements.

Acnologia is probably lying. He had no reason to be there other than to destroy something, and he's been drawn to remenants of Zeref both times we've seen him. If he's not deliberately trying to destory them because he has at least some idea what END is , I'd like to hear why you think he showed up.

 

[kkck]

I wouldn't really expect the strength of the dragons who taught DS magic would be relevant to the strength of a dragon slayer. The quality of the teaching would be a thing although thats it and even that would be limited after some time. dragon slayer magic is a magic on its own right as far as we have been told, not inherently superior or weaker than other magics (except in the case of elemental advantages and such). In that particular regard its only the skill of the user that determines how strong one is, not the strength of the dragon who taught it. Heck, we have seen the god slayers and devil slayers and so far none was taught by gods or demons. And yet their strength at the time has been more than significant. The dragon slayers did not slay any of the dragons there simply because they did not have the strength to pull of such a feat. The manga has yet to present a reason or evidence that dragon slayers who use lachrima are in fact inferior to "real" dragon slayers so that would apply to laxus too even though he is an actual match to gildarts. In that particular regard, even gildarts class mages who use DS magic are not enough to take on dragons. Which is perhaps why most of the dragon slayers have been awarded multipliers to their power. All the real DSs presumably have access to dragonforce which pretty much at least triples their power and before that a few of them have access to double elements which also provides a significant boost. Of course, we could make the case that laxus was not at his peak strength given that he had just fought jura. At this point I would argue that dragon force was the primary means by which dragons were slayed back in the day. And dragon force seems to have been the primary cause for dragonification considering every time it is used dragon slayers become more dragonlike.

 

[M3J]

On the page that is linked you can clearly see that the dragons did give the DS a part of their power/soul or whatever it is that the dragon is giving that DS.
http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/301/13

Besides that there are still some contradicting points in the whole dragon war fiasco. We have on one side Zirconis who says a few DS went crazy and started to turn even on the dragons on their side and killing them and the one who killed everyone was Acnologia. And we have Igneel question if humans will ever be able to surpass dragon during the GMG's. IF Acnologia and other DS actually were able to kill dragons wouldn't that mean humans already surpassed dragons long ago? Or did Igneel consider humans weak cause they never reached his power-level?

The page does not say that at all, it just says the dragons taught dragon slayers magic. Which means anyone can learn dragon slaying magic, even demons or former demons. Natsu could have been reborn or recreated or something as Natsu, having demon power lie dormant, and learned dragon slaying magic. He can be a dragon slaying demon with immense power. Nothing also states that only dragon slayers can beat dragons, just that they have the power to do so because of the magic.

Not necessarily, it just means dragon slayers back then were near or past the dragons' power, but the current ones suck. None of the dragon slayers did much against dragons, they needed help, and if it weren't for Ultear, they'd have been eviscerated.

And I suppose this is why END is feared. Even if Acnologia is more powerful than Zeref, surely it respects the power of a demon with dragon slaying magic. A dragon slayer with the power to slay most dragons combined with the power of a demon that can take down Zeref would be pretty formidable.

Or Igneel is just plain wrong.

 

[Zehahaha]

I still remember that painting shown during the Tournament, where Acnologia is shown fighting someone who wears the same scarf as Natsu... That must've been END I'd reckon, and maybe END was " recreated " or reincarneted into Natsu

Whoever, there's still something bugging me, if END = Natsu, why that book of END is still around ? We've seen Mard Geer turn into a book after Zeref showed up right ? We're still missing something here

 

[Holt]

Yeah. I think the most likely is that END is Natsu's etherious side which was sealed off separately from natsu hence why they both seem to exist at the same time (as a human and a sealed demon in the book). Or maybe Natsu is END's reincarnate or vessel and if the seal on the book is broken, then that half awakens in Natsu.