I am not saying it is god slayer magic, it is simply put a power that surpasses the power of a god. I know that even Cheria was still effected by age seal, but god slayer magic like other slayer Magics just makes the user immune to respective elemental based abilities and makes their attacks more effective against gods. While Mira at top condition could not even harm Zilconis, yet a tired out Wendy caused the most damage, it is a means of what can effect others
Though you have to realize that the two have same origins from a god and how to correlate to Natsu who is described to “surpass the power of a god” and how it means. And no, he was not described to burn Mari’s magic, just as END can move in stopped time. With Ingeel’s magic is because he was in the afterlife, not because it was powerful, otherwise, what would be the point of END since they met before
Correct. END's power is not god slaying magic. It's a power that is stronger than that of a god. It has no properties that is inherently effective against a god or time manipulation. It's not even proven to be enough to beat Zeref, let alone kill him. It's just stronger than Chronos.
Igneel's magic was able to kill Zeref because it was powerful. That was why Zeref wanted Natsu to be trained in the first place. So Natsu could potentially grow to be as strong as Igneel and kill him. The line where Zeref said "power of the dying" doesn't mean much. If all it took was magic power from a dead guy, then anybody who has magic that once belonged to a dead person could kill Zeref. God Serena could eat someone's magic then kill them, and he too would have the power of the dead. Gray with Silver's power is the power of a dead guy. Literally every 2nd, 3rd, or 5th generation dragon slayer would have the power of the dead. None of these guys stand a realistic chance of killing Zeref. A greater emphasis was placed on the strength behind Igneel's power.
It does since it is power that is meant to kill someone with immortality from a god, just like he could defeat someone who’s time manipulation is from a god. Hence Dimaria noting that only END could do it
God Serena could only eat elements or elemental Magic pertaining to what he uses, but looking at it closely, Igneel’s power is a power that is fading from the world since dying is not the same as dead or living or undead. And since magic is alive it would make sense that it was the last bit of Igneel’s magic that it would fade away when active.
Natsu couldn’t kill Zeref with FH with his max flames of emotion, yet with Igneel’s who should be much weaker than FH Zeref could “possibly” simply by it’s nature of dying. Plus it was pure specualtion, even for Zeref since he first saw it
It does since it is power that is meant to kill someone with immortality from a god, just like he could defeat someone who’s time manipulation is from a god. Hence Dimaria noting that only END could do it
God Serena could only eat elements or elemental Magic pertaining to what he uses, but looking at it closely, Igneel’s power is a power that is fading from the world since dying is not the same as dead or living or undead. And since magic is alive it would make sense that it was the last bit of Igneel’s magic that it would fade away when active.
Natsu couldn’t kill Zeref with FH with his max flames of emotion, yet with Igneel’s who should be much weaker than FH Zeref could “possibly” simply by it’s nature of dying.
END's curse power is fire. He does not have any god slaying properties. END was stalemate by Gray, and his enraged claw attack was stopped by Erza barehanded. END's power has no feats better than what Natsu can do with FDK mode. If END's power was enough to let Natsu kill Zeref, he never would have sent Natsu to be trained by Igneel. As it stands, there is no reason to assume END Natsu can beat Zeref in a fight. Let alone kill him.
Pretty much every dragon slayer worth their salt can learn to eat magic that is not their own element. God Serena has 8 elements to choose from, so it's not like he can't find somebody with one of his elements. Igneel is dead. Every dragon slaying lacrima would be the power of a dead dragon. Gray's power from Silver is literally the same as Natsu's power from Igneel, as far as inheriting the power of a dead person. Only difference is that Igneel is a dragon, and way stronger than Silver. It is not hard to find magic of a dead guy, or even a dying guy.
Who says FH Zeref is stronger than Igneel? Natsu defeated FH Zeref, and Natsu would get owned by Igneel in a fight. Both Igneel and Acnologia would stomp Natsu and Zeref in a straight up fight. Natsu may not have killed FH Zeref, but he did burn away Fairy Heart's time magic and then defeat Zeref in battle. For the purposes of countering Dimaria's time magic, which is not powered by infinite magic power, this is more than enough. Chronos' power is not on the same level as Ankhseram's curse or Fairy Heart.
END’s power is surpassing god powers, I did not say he was god slaying, that was only with when he ate Zancrow’s fire. Gray’s power is to combat demons, and the more his heart was in darkness the stronger he became, Erza was simply that strong. Natsu likely did not have the capabilities to use his END powers at the time, and to train was to prepare for Acnologia.
Not really, otherwise Cobra and Laxus would have that capability, yet have not shown it, you cannot compare that to Igneel’s dying power. Then that further disproves Zeref’s hypothesis that dying power is capable of killing Zeref, unless unlike Gray’s magic from his father it was more or less permanent while Natsu’s was temporary which holds a significant difference. Zeref has a subordinate who created DSM and fought in the war against other dragons.
Yet Natsu did not burn Chronos’ magic, just could move through stopped time, that is different. FH is not god based powers such is not the same type. Again, only END could move through stopped time, confirmed by both Dimaria.
We agree that END was created with the potential to be stronger than some gods, right? We can also agree that END's power is not god slaying magic, right? What I am saying is that END can move through Dimaria's time because END's power is greater than that of Dimaria's power. Dimaria's power is that of a god, specifically Chronos. This is the same reason why Brandish's power also does not work on END. END is too strong for them.
Dragon Lacryma are crystals containing a dragon's power. All the dragons are dead, so these would be crystals containing a dead dragon's power. All 2nd and 3rd gens have lacryma implanted inside them. 5th gens straight up murder the dragons and eat their powers. Igneel giving his power to Natsu is the exact same as Silver giving his power to Gray. Unless you think Silver's power is infinite, then Silver's power would have ran out at the end of Tartarus when face activated. Gray then learned how to use devil slaying magic with his own power. Igneel's power ran out after his fight with Zeref, and Natsu learned to use dragon king spells with his own power.
Irene is not on Igneel's level. Igneel is just under Acnologia. Depending on how strong the 5 dragon gods are in relation to Acno, Igneel might actually qualify as one if he were still alive. But yes, Irene is also way stronger than Silver. If Irene died and gave all her powers to Erza, Erza would stand better of a chance at beating Zeref than Gray at Tartarus. Though still not as high of a chance as Natsu w/Igneel's power.
If Natsu could burn time magic, he could stop Dimaria from manipulating time altogether.
Because Brandish’s power was explicitly explained that it doesn’t work on something that has greater power than hers. While Dimaria stated that only END could possibly move in her stopped time, besides Ultear since she was not present.
That is different from magic from a dragon that was already dead/dying. While we do not know where that magic comes from so that is a big if. No, one was passed on from father to son, while the other already has magic inside him and had to train to awaken it, and another difference is one is hypothesized to kill Zeref while there is not difference between then and now as they exist just to kill demons. It has never been stated what had been lost after the Tartarus battle, but somehow, Igneel’s magic is considered special for some reason as it was hypothesized to work against Zeref and others cannot.
God Time Magic = END power capable of moving through stopped time
Normal high level Time Magic = Natsu at max FoE can burn through time
God Immortality = Natsu at max FoE cannot kill him, while END can.
There is no proof that Natsu can burn god time magic, even in his strongest form he could not, he could only go to max possible temperature to do that for regular Time Magic. While God Time Magic could only be overcome by END’s power, which was stated.
Because Brandish’s power was explicitly explained that it doesn’t work on something that has greater power than hers. While Dimaria stated that only END could possibly move in her stopped time, besides Ultear since she was not present.
That is different from magic from a dragon that was already dead/dying. While we do not know where that magic comes from so that is a big if. No, one was passed on from father to son, while the other already has magic inside him and had to train to awaken it, and another difference is one is hypothesized to kill Zeref while there is not difference between then and now as they exist just to kill demons. It has never been stated what had been lost after the Tartarus battle, but somehow, Igneel’s magic is considered special for some reason as it was hypothesized to work against Zeref and others cannot.
God Time Magic = END power capable of moving through stopped time
Normal high level Time Magic = Natsu at max FoE can burn through time
God Immortality = Natsu at max FoE cannot kill him, while END can.
There is no proof that Natsu can burn god time magic, even in his strongest form he could not, he could only go to max possible temperature to do that for regular Time Magic. While God Time Magic could only be overcome by END’s power, which was stated.
Dimaria was implying that END could move through her time because it was stronger than her. That's why she said "How could something move through my time? How could he have power that surpasses a god?" The implication being that the ability to move through her time and having power stronger than that of a god is one of the same. Dimaria also apparently thought that only END could be that strong. But she's wrong on that, because we know for a fact there are people stronger than END. She also wouldn't have meant that only END could move through her time, because she knows for a fact that Ultear could.
Igneel is dead. Again, the simplest explanation for why Igneel's magic could kill Zeref is that Igneel was powerful. That's why Zeref sent Natsu to be trained by Igneel in the first place. Zeref couldn't have possibly predicted that Natsu was someday going to find a dead guy's power to use on him. He wanted Igneel to teach Natsu magic that would let Natsu become powerful enough to kill him.
Click on the spoiler. Zeref literally says that his power of time itself is the power of a god. Natsu then proceeds to burn that magic. Zeref isn't just using some "normal high level time magic" as you so put it. It's an infinite power and the ability to control space and time. Dimaria can only stop time and move within her stopped time. Zeref can straight up reverse time and regenerate his disintegrated body. Fairy Heart is several orders of magnitude stronger than Dimaria's Chronos Soul.
END can't beat Zeref, let alone kill him. END can't even beat Gray, and his enraged attack against Gray was stopped barehanded by Erza. To put this in comparison, Natsu's dragon force demolition fist incinerated FH Zeref's body. Zeref had to use Fairy Heart to reverse time, and restore his body. Natsu wasn't just fighting to kill Zeref by burning away the Ankhseram's curse. He was fighting against Zeref using Fairy Heart. Fairy Heart is an infinite source of power, yet Natsu still managed to overpower it and injure Zeref to the point where he couldn't move. So you can forgive Natsu for not having enough power left over to also wipe the Ankhseram curse. I'll say it again: END was never strong enough to kill Zeref. Natsu with END's power in the Alvarez arc was weaker than him using his own powers against Zeref and Acnologia. This is the strongest canon version of END we have proof of. As far as 400 years ago goes, we have no proof END was anything other than a kid Natsu. Zeref even agrees with Natsu that Igneel's toe would have crushed END, and that there was no physical reason Igneel could not kill him. If END was strong enough to kill Zeref 400 years ago, then there wouldn't be any need for Zeref to let Igneel train Natsu to become strong enough.
Ultear is not yet she did, she could move through time because she was part of the stopped time world so that is why, yet she could not hold it for long, while END could. he agreed to let him train is to have him strong enough to kill Acnologia while he wanted Natsu to be strong enough to defeat him, he did not know by what means though, that was the point, Natsu Always had the capability, just not at the time.
That reference about Zeref having the power of a god is arrogance, just like saying Hades is a god because he taught Zancrow God Slayer Magic. It was obviously created by a human so it is therefore human magic, who by the was was the same person Hades. I am not saying that Dimaria is stronger, just a different type of time magic which one was created by humans and the other if from a God.
Natsu can because he had END power, it is not a matter of strength which was proven in his last battle with Zeref, it is a matter of what his magic/curse is capable of, which is surpassing the power of a god, which is what Zeref made in order to kill him, who was cursed by a god suggestively greater than chronos.
Again, Gray has demon slayer powers which made him END’s relative match because of their nature and Gray was getting stronger with darkness enveloping him, and it was obvious that Natsu was not a full strength either.
Dimaria was implying that END could move through her time because it was stronger than her. That's why she said "How could something move through my time? How could he have power that surpasses a god?" The implication being that the ability to move through her time and having power stronger than that of a god is one of the same. Dimaria also apparently thought that only END could be that strong. But she's wrong, because we know for a fact there are people stronger than END.
Igneel is dead. Again, the simplest explanation for why Igneel's magic could kill Zeref is that Igneel was powerful. That's why Zeref sent Natsu to be trained by Igneel in the first place. Zeref couldn't have possibly predicted that Natsu was someday going to find a dead guy's power to use on him. He wanted Igneel to teach Natsu magic that would let Natsu become powerful enough to kill him.
Click on the spoiler. Zeref literally says that his power of time itself is the power of a god. Natsu then proceeds to burn that magic. Zeref isn't just using some "normal high level time magic" as you so put it. It's an infinite power and the ability to control space and time. Dimaria can only stop time and move within her stopped time. Zeref can straight up reverse time and regenerate his disintegrated body. Fairy Heart is several orders of magnitude stronger than Dimaria's Chronos Soul.
END can't beat Zeref, let alone kill him. END can't even beat Gray, and his enraged attack against Gray was stopped barehanded by Erza. To put this in comparison, Natsu's dragon force demolition fist incinerated FH Zeref's body. Zeref had to use Fairy Heart to reverse time, and restore his body. Natsu wasn't just fighting to kill Zeref by burning away the Ankhseram's curse. He was fighting against Zeref using Fairy Heart. Fairy Heart is an infinite source of power, yet Natsu still managed to overpower it and injure Zeref to the point where he couldn't move. So you can forgive Natsu for not having enough power left over to also wipe the Ankhseram curse.
I say this again. END was never strong enough to kill Zeref. Natsu with END's power in the Alvarez arc was weaker than him using his own powers against Zeref and Acnologia. This is the strongest canon version of END we have proof of. As far as 400 years ago goes, we have no proof END was anything other than a kid Natsu. Zeref even agrees with Natsu that Igneel's toe would have crushed END, and that there was no physical reason Igneel could kill him. If END was strong enough to kill Zeref 400 years ago, then there wouldn't be any need for Zeref to let Igneel train Natsu to become strong enough.
Any opinions on Flames of emotion do you think that they are Natsu’s ultimate power like heavily implied, and do you think Mard Geer sorta based his curse story from them?
Ultear is not yet she did, she could move through time because she was part of the stopped time world so that is why, yet she could not hold it for long, while END could. he agreed to let him train is to have him strong enough to kill Acnologia while he wanted Natsu to be strong enough to defeat him, he did not know by what means though, that was the point, Natsu Always had the capability, just not at the time.
That reference about Zeref having the power of a god is arrogance, just like saying Hades is a god because he taught Zancrow God Slayer Magic. It was obviously created by a human so it is therefore human magic, who by the was was the same person Hades. I am not saying that Dimaria is stronger, just a different type of time magic which one was created by humans and the other if from a God.
Natsu can because he had END power, it is not a matter of strength which was proven in his last battle with Zeref, it is a matter of what his magic/curse is capable of, which is surpassing the power of a god, which is what Zeref made in order to kill him, who was cursed by a god suggestively greater than chronos.
Again, Gray has demon slayer powers which made him END’s relative match because of their nature and Gray was getting stronger with darkness enveloping him, and it was obvious that Natsu was not a full strength either.
Again, if END could kill Zeref 400 years ago...there would be no need for Natsu to be trained by Igneel. The plan was never to have Natsu face Acnologia. Igneel was supposed to face Acnologia, and kill him. END Natsu certainly can't kill Zeref in the Alvarez arc. Natsu with END's power doesn't even have the feats to suggest he can outfight Zeref, let alone land enough significant shots to kill him. With DF Natsu or Igneel's power, it's a question of whether or not Natsu can kill Zeref. With END powers, I see Zeref straight up beating Natsu.
How is it arrogance when it is literally backed by an infinite power? Zeref is a lot more god-like than actual gods, like the God of War Natsu oneshotted. He's more god-like than Dimaria, who isn't even the strongest of his Spriggan 12. Surpassing the power of a god isn't anything special. Natsu surpassed the power of a god when he one-shotted the Ikusatsunagi, god of war.
Gray's demon slayer magic makes his ice more damage to Natsu. It doesn't make his bare skin more resistant to Natsu's attacks. Natsu barely did any damage to Gray, whereas he could incinerate Zeref's physical body. Or at least beat him up to a point where he couldn't move. Also, Erza stopped Natsu's enraged attack with her bare hands. Compare that to Irene breaking every bone in Erza's body with a casual claw swipe. Erza even raised her sword to block Irene's attack.
Beating Dimaria does not mean you can beat Zeref. END has no feats suggesting he can beat Zeref in a fight. On the contrary to be honest, Zeref has enough feats to suggest he would beat the version of Natsu, the one with END's power, that fought Gray. Especially with FH, it would be a stomp.
So your reason for why having Infinite Magic power does not qualify Zeref as being just as powerful as any god is because Zeref taught Hades magic, and then had taught Zancrow some magic, and then Zeref killed Zancrow? What? FH Zeref might not be more powerful than Ankhseram, but he is certainly stronger than Dimaria. Dimaria does not have infinite magical power. August, Irene, Larcade, and even base Zeref would all be stronger than Dimaria.
The fact that Gray can match END's attacks, and Natsu can overpower FH Zeref's attacks proves right there that Natsu's own power is stronger END's power. Darkness in Gray's heart is not an excuse. Zeref used the darkness in his heart against Natsu too. How much darkness do you think is in Zeref's heart compared to Gray's?
The fact that Erza can casually stop END's enraged attacks, but gets wrecked by Irene's attacks proves that Irene is stronger than END's power. Irene is nowhere near Acnologia's level. Igneel is close. That gives you an idea the difference between END's power and Igneel's. Simply put, if Natsu used Igneel's power against Irene, I can see him slaying her. If he used DF Demolition Fist against Irene, I can see him causing more damage than Wendy's sword did. If he used END's power to claw at Irene, I can see Irene laughing it off and then stepping on him.
None of END's attacks managed to kill anyone either, or break the stalemate with Gray, or cause serious injury to Erza. DF Demolition Fist is still way more impressive than any attack END Natsu has ever used. Forget about incinerating Zeref's body, and forget about Fairy Heart. The attacks END used against Gray won't even be enough to overpower base Zeref's regular attacks.
Not really, because if his flames can be powered by emotions, then he can pull off something similar to how he defeated FH Zeref while still being able to stop his immortality because curses draw their power from negative feelings.
No, Zeref taught him a bit of magic, he said that Hades has a personal affinity for magic, as in he has potential, so besides whatever Seref taught him, all other magic was what he learned on his own. I am not saying Dimaria is stronger that FH Zeref, it is just their Magic’s weakness/limitations differ which one can be overpowered while one requires an ability to be uneffected by stopped time.
The fact that neither of them were at full power does not prove anything, because Natsu’s power is tied to his emotional state to how hot his flames can be, so there is no way to say that this was their strongest yet, and Gray came out of a fight with a Spriggans so he was weakened as well, both can be stopped by Erza who has not fought a Spriggans since yesterday so she has some strength to stop them.
There is no way of knowing that he can down Irene besides her natural weakness to dragon slayer magic, that is all there is to it, while Seref doesn’t have that weakness, what is why Igneel’s power is deemed special by Zeref without real evidence, just the thought, the fact that Natsu required two hits to “kill” Zeref while Natsu’s savage flames can beat FH Zeref yet could not kill him says it all that it is a matter quality over quantity.
Again, you are ignoring Gray’s DSM which is END’s natural weakness, so while Natsu was not even at full power either since he is only progressing to become a demon tells he is not at full power.
Not really, because if his flames can be powered by emotions, then he can pull off something similar to how he defeated FH Zeref while still being able to stop his immortality because curses draw their power from negative feelings.
No, Zeref taught him a bit of magic, he said that Hades has a personal affinity for magic, as in he has potential, so besides whatever Seref taught him, all other magic was what he learned on his own. I am not saying Dimaria is stronger that FH Zeref, it is just their Magic’s weakness/limitations differ which one can be overpowered while one requires an ability to be uneffected by stopped time.
The fact that neither of them were at full power does not prove anything, because Natsu’s power is tied to his emotional state to how hot his flames can be, so there is no way to say that this was their strongest yet, and Gray came out of a fight with a Spriggans so he was weakened as well, both can be stopped by Erza who has not fought a Spriggans since yesterday so she has some strength to stop them.
There is no way of knowing that he can down Irene besides her natural weakness to dragon slayer magic, that is all there is to it, while Seref doesn’t have that weakness, what is why Igneel’s power is deemed special by Zeref without real evidence, just the thought, the fact that Natsu required two hits to “kill” Zeref while Natsu’s savage flames can beat FH Zeref yet could not kill him says it all that it is a matter quality over quantity.
Again, you are ignoring Gray’s DSM which is END’s natural weakness, so while Natsu was not even at full power either since he is only progressing to become a demon tells he is not at full power.
You lost me. What exactly does Hades have to do with Fairy Heart time magic versus Dimaria's age seal? Natsu can burn time magic. Dimaria's age seal is time magic, and a less powerful time magic than Fairy Heart. It stands to reason if Natsu can burn FH Zeref's time magic, he should be able to do the same to Dimaria's. I don't see how Hades fits into all of this.
Natsu is not going to get much angrier than when he thinks Lucy is dead. In fact, this is arguably the angriest we've ever seen Natsu. You can argue that Gray was wounded, sure. That just makes END less impressive, because he's stalemating a wounded Gray. Actually the END tumour was also killing Natsu. So I can argue that Natsu with END's power can never really be at max power, because at some level the tumor is actually killing him.
Even assuming Irene was not vulnerable to dragon slaying magic, my point still stands. I don't see Irene surviving an attack that would kill Zeref. Also, it's not like Irene would go down to just any dragon slaying attack. Irene would have to be at least as strong as the GMG dragons, and those dragons don't go down easy. END's attacks can be blocked by Erza and Gray. I see no reason why Irene, even in her human form, wouldn't be able to block it.
As for why Zeref would deem Igneel's power special. Again, Igneel is very powerful. He is just under Acnologia in power, and the two are close enough that it would be reasonable to consider them on the same level.
Bro I don’t know why u guys are arguing about this but ppl that read the manga knows that base natsu>all forms of natsu. END isn’t close to zeref level
The idea of END could be there from the beginning for Natsu and got canceled for some reason just like the horns. I mean Mashima never worked on foreshadowing Natsu as demon or building up for it, It just happened in Tartarous so it's yeah it wasn't planned to be implemented most likely Mashima brought it back to extend the manga but he canceled it again and we didn't see END form. In Eden Zero mashima is building up for shiki to become the demon king which is clearly planned not like Natsu's case.
But even then he was supposed to be a spirit, not a demon. And that concept was used, when Natsu dressed up as "Demon-Lord" in Edolas. None of this actually tell us if E.N.D. was planned or not.
