In short, you have nothing more than a theory, which you want to justify based on the fact that the demons are facing the old Oración Seis. This is irrelevant since you cannot create a narrative and claim it to be true. After all, it doesn't exist in the manga.
By the way, the demons did not display any of their abilities in this confrontation. You cannot make these unfounded allegations when you have not seen the development of this fight.
What you are trying to do is create an endless discussion based on a powerscaling you developed with minimal information from this confrontation. Also, Hiro Mashima doesn’t write the manga based on the powerscaling you create.
A theory remains a theory, not a fact. You have already been refuted on Reddit for spreading this misinformation, and now you are presenting this powerscaling argument as if it would clarify a context not shown in the manga, in addition to contradicting the scenes in the manga.
Okay explain to us how oraicion sechs beat aldoron yet diabolos got murdered by selene and how oraicion sechs is struggling against seis. I fucking dare you to give a reasonable explanation.
There are people like that here to. Who says Irene is stronger than dragon gods, zeref igneel etc.
The dichotomy of people who usually say something like this is that they have double standards. When you ask them if Erza is stronger than natsu they'll say yes because of the narrative but when you ask them if Irene is stronger than god tier level characters they'll say yes when the narrative doesn't even imply such a scenario. I mean we see on panel were zeref shows superiority to Irene 2x. Also I suggest you stop bringing reddit opinions here especially from fairy tail reddit it's mostly p*** addicts who are always there so there opinion is of no use
So Gaia calling Hoteye a strong wizard, Bird being too slow for Racer, Cobra blocking Blade, Midnight harming Zero are all only my theories of mine, seems fair Oracion Seis fighting is irrelevant, ok demons strong enough to beat Aldoron in a direct fight can struggle with Oracion Seis as much as they want and everyone has to accept that they fought directly with Aldoron no matter what happens in the manga, fine bro, fine
Again, Gaia calling Hoteye a strong wizard, Bird being too slow for Racer, Cobra blocking Blade, Midnight harming Zero are just my unfounded allegations right? You who think oracion seis are jokes who already lost 3 times have the demons who are struggling with them as the most powerful 100YQ villain group but my reasoning is the unfounded one What can i say man?
So i was refuted huh LOL, can you say who refuted me then, if i indeed not replied him i want to reply him now. And i'm not the only who talk about this like i said, Ninja_SurgeFairy who i disagree with most of the time is spreading it more than me, was him refuted too?
Ask JustsomeSpaceG1 how Irene is Igneel level here
Okay explain to us how oraicion sechs beat aldoron yet diabolos got murdered by selene and how oraicion sechs is struggling against seis. I fucking dare you to give a reasonable explanation.
There are people like that here to. Who says Irene is stronger than dragon gods, zeref igneel etc.
The dichotomy of people who usually say something like this is that they have double standards. When you ask them if Erza is stronger than natsu they'll say yes because of the narrative but when you ask them if Irene is stronger than god tier level characters they'll say yes when the narrative doesn't even imply such a scenario. I mean we see on panel were zeref shows superiority to Irene 2x. Also I suggest you stop bringing reddit opinions here especially from fairy tail reddit it's mostly p*** addicts who are always there so there opinion is of no use
Why do I need to explain something that Mashima didn't make a point of addressing? It's not my problem if Hiro wanted to hype these demons like that. Now inventing narratives and putting this as a fact is a waste of time, after all you are not Mashima, nor am I.
Why do I need to explain something that Mashima didn't make a point of addressing? It's not my problem if Hiro wanted to hype these demons like that. Now inventing narratives and putting this as a fact is a waste of time, after all you are not Mashima, nor am I.
I'm trying to explain this to Rigel too, even the hax merchants easily defeats their opponents if they are too weak, Oracion Seis giving trouble to Oracion Sechs end any possibility of a direct fight
Have demons ever shown any abilities? Has there been any development of this battle yet?
We've had fights like this in the quest before.
Lucy and Yukino vs Athena
Minerva vs Luso Signario.
And so on. Before drawing conclusions from this fight, we need minimal details, things we don't have.
But I've already prolonged this discussion too long. By the way, I had theorized in the chapter introducing these demons that Faris could have passed on some factor of Acnologia's abilities to the demons, since she is a Black Mage and also a Black Magic Dragon.
I also theorized that they might have an advantage in killing dragons. But despite these theories, I have not established any of them as fact.
Have demons ever shown any abilities? Has there been any development of this battle yet?
We've had fights like this in the quest before.
Lucy and Yukino vs Athena
Minerva vs Luso Signario.
And so on. Before drawing conclusions from this fight, we need minimal details, things we don't have.
But I've already prolonged this discussion too long. By the way, I had theorized in the chapter introducing these demons that Faris could have passed on some factor of Acnologia's abilities to the demons, since she is a Black Mage and also a Black Magic Dragon.
I also theorized that they might have an advantage in killing dragons. But despite these theories, I have not established any of them as fact.
I also never established anything as a fact. I'm not even making any dumb theories. I'm just asking you how you think it makes sense for oraicion sechs to beat a full power dragon god and in the very same chapter struggle with canon fodders??? I'm asking you how you rationalize that.
I also never established anything as a fact. I'm not even making any dumb theories. I'm just asking you how you think it makes sense for oraicion sechs to beat a full power dragon god and in the very same chapter struggle with canon fodders??? I'm asking you how you rationalize that.
Also I suggest you stop bringing reddit opinions here especially from fairy tail reddit it's mostly p*** addicts who are always there so there opinion is of no use
Just to to explain myself, i brought some opinions to show that i was not the one who created them despite the allegations and brought this one to show a worse opinion than the one you were asking explanations.
Yes, she said ''probably'', but some haxes works on everyone including dragons, Zeref hax worked on Aldoron, Larcade hax supossedly would work on Acnologia, the later is a demon, is that i wanted to point, maybe they have a ahx that works on dragons and due to taht works on lacrimas
Let's say i'm overthinking about the demons and all they need to be is being at Larcade level, in case the 6 combined somehow did what Larcade was supposed to do, not in a direct fight, but by surprise or something like that, now we are starting to rationalizate other forms of Aldoron defeat. But then these demons TOGETHER would be a little more worth than Larcade, divided they should worth less than him, each one is around 1/6 of Larcade, i'm making this point because this could actually fit with what we are currently seeing.
Just another possibility to try to fit with reality, these demons are already being occupied by oracion seis independently if they will win or not, so this already disqualifies them to met the expectations of the strongest 100YQ villain group who won against a dragon god in a direct fight. So the possible explanations: they just destroyed the lacrima or their team is more effective than Larcade and then their surprised Aldoron or something like that. There isn't much room for complete different possibilities, specially the direct fight one.
Yes, she said ''probably'', but some haxes works on everyone including dragons, Zeref hax worked on Aldoron, Larcade hax supossedly would work on Acnologia, the later is a demon, is that i wanted to point, maybe they have a ahx that works on dragons and due to taht works on lacrimas
Let's say i'm overthinking about the demons and all they need to be is being at Larcade level, in case the 6 combined somehow did what Larcade was supposed to do, not in a direct fight, but by surprise or something like that, now we are starting to rationalizate other forms of Aldoron defeat. But then these demons TOGETHER would be a little more worth than Larcade, divided they should worth less than him, each one is around 1/6 of Larcade, i'm making this point because this could actually fit with what we are currently seeing.
Just another possibility to try to fit with reality, these demons are already being occupied by oracion seis independently if they will win or not, so this already disqualifies them to met the expectations of the strongest 100YQ villain group who won against a dragon god in a direct fight. So the possible explanations: they just destroyed the lacrima or their team is more effective than Larcade and then their surprised Aldoron or something like that. There isn't much room for complete different possibilities, specially the direct fight one.
What does this have to do with what I just said. You talking about magical power I’m talking about how some magics don’t need to be that strong to work on others
What does this have to do with what I just said. You talking about magical power I’m talking about how some magics don’t need to be that strong to work on others
Because of Larcade, he is far from strong enough to deal with Acnologia or dragon gods in a direct fight, but his hax is still stated to work on them. So a Larcade effectiveness explains pretty much everything. Their ability could be as haxed as Larcade one and you explain the lacrima and a eventual Aldoron defeat. So it also opened another possibility for Aldoron defeat since direct fight is out of question
Because of Larcade, he is far from strong enough to deal with Acnologia or dragon gods in a direct fight, but his hax is still stated to work on them. So a Larcade effectiveness explains pretty much everything. Their ability could be as haxed as Larcade one and you explain the lacrima and a eventual Aldoron defeat. So it also opened another possibility for Aldoron defeat since direct fight is out of question
Again never said anything about a direct fight just that the demons may have some type of ability that’s affective against dragons but not so against other opponents.
Again never said anything about a direct fight just that the demons may have some type of ability that’s affective against dragons but not so against other opponents.
So if it couldn't be a direct fight my first thought was ''they just destroyed the lacrima'' but then this conversation about other abilities to affect dragons made me remember about Larcade, and then i could find other possibility beyond just destroying the lacrima
Just to make it clear, my first comment wasn't a direct reply due to me focusing on Minerva power level, though i'm also not impressed by her speed, but here we go.
So Minerva is afst because one minion punched Erza? Firstly it wasn't even the same minion, secondly this way i should wank Taurus too for hitting Athena https://cdn.readfairytail.com/file/mangap/1175/10134000/3.jpeg chapter 134 if the link isn't working. I mean they are still just minions, just cannon fodder in the end of the day. Erza speedblitzed Luso, but before being bloodlusted she wasn't showing any great speed, Luso was even toying with her because of the lack of great showings.
Fact is: Erza used nakagami to one shot Minerva, but only used it because she was already pretty screwed, specially her foot.
Fighting against the manga? Is Wahl immune to lightning, yes or not? If Laxus was able of one shotting Ajeel, why he wasn't able of one shotting Wahl if Hiro said Wahl was weaker? Because of the lightning immunity ,simple like that, Wahl was fighting equally with Laxus due to his immunity, otherwise he would be one shotted just like Ajeel. Wanna say that Wahl is fast enough to keep with Laxus? But the historia should be much weaker, all stats including speed should be lower, GS was reduced to a small fry according to Gildarts himself, the alive one would be able to give him a fight, so if someone who could give Gildarts a fight was reduced to a small fry, what would happen to a Gildarts one shot material? Reduced to God of Ishgar level at the very best.
Let's assume they indeed beat the historias, Rogue also defeated one but now is portrayed at base Gray level who is weaker than Ur, i could argue that Minerva is even weaker than Ur thanks to that. Wanna say that Minerva is faster than Ur and the Gods of Ishgar because she fought a weakned Wahl? Ok, i guess, my main point is that she is weaker than them. But is her speed relevant for spriggan level and above characters? I mean, Racer should be faster than her and we will still have to analyze later how strong the Oracion Sechs really are.
Again Erza need to be bloodlusted to be that fast. The fight didn't tired her, her injuries were very little, she could fight later against her sister and even after that she could keep fighting against Athena II and Viernes, so i can't say that her fight was hard, even because in the end she just speedblizted Luso. Yes Erza had to deal with World Alchemy first, but my point is that it wasn't that hard to deal with, without her friends she would have struggled a lot more against Youko as no one would deal with the yokais for her. People like Erza and Laxus may not be able to simply one shot Luso like they can do against spriggans and the diabolos trio but they can still speedblitz her, so let's she is higher than a regular spriggan but not by that much.
Different kinds of "minions" created by Luso could hit Erza, and the bear that Minerva was keeping dodging has punch with AOE, thus besides dodge the punch directly, Minerva also needed to dodge the impact zone generated by it.
Taurus hit Athena when she was holding two power magic balls in both her hands and Athena is the kind of fighter who lets people hit her because she can endure it without being hurt. It's not even close to what happened with Erza and with the pairing status situation that happened with Minerva and Erza.
Erza needed to destroy Luso's dimension (i.e., Luso's creation) to get close to her and blitz her. Period. Just accepted what manga is showing.
Nagakami was Erza strongest armor of the time and Erza can really endure her damage to finish her fights. We are talking of the warrior who made Irene undo her dragon form while fighting Dragon Irene with almost all her bones broken. What is a very hurt leg in comparison with this?
Wahl can have "immunity" to lightning, but since he can tank Laxus's monstrous strength (I mean, Laxus kick destroyed three floors of a building, and Wahl come out unharmed from this kick) and have speed to hit physical attacks on Laxus, Wahl is strong. Maybe Wahl is the weakest of the 12 because he has the lowest power attack. He also mistook a shot on Laxus for any reason, so he sounded kind of "amateurish" at some moments.
I have already proven that the Historia's physical status isn't much weaker, since Gildarts and God Serena Historia were even in a physical clash. Actually, Gildarts needed to spam "Crash Magic" to get an opening on God Serena Historia to defeat him. If Gildarts couldn't just blitz a Historia, no one in the guild could do it. Thus, Minerva was getting the upper hand in the physical fight with a Historia that, when alive, could pressure Laxus in physical status.
Rogue wasn't portrayed as base Gray. It's just your poor interpretation assuming that. Rogue fought causality the Iron Alchemist and, before the fight concluded, his magic power was stolen by Duke. Rogue didn't get the chance to use his Dragon Force or a strong spell. He and Gray didn't fight the same opponent. Base Gray didn't beat Rogue's opponent, it was Lucy with Brandish's body who did that. There is no pairing between Rogue and Gray. Your comparisons and conclusions are nonsense without any real logic.
Erza is naturally fast. She doesn't need to get bloodlust to get fast. She IS fast. Getting blood-lusted just made her more serious, but that doesn't change the fact that pissed (blood-lusted) Erza needed to spam Tenrin's sword speed to get close to Luso. She would have done it if she could just run directly to Luso without spending magic power destroying the dimension.
Again: you will not win this. I know this subject, and you don't.
So if it couldn't be a direct fight my first thought was ''they just destroyed the lacrima'' but then this conversation about other abilities to affect dragons made me remember about Larcade, and then i could find other possibility beyond just destroying the lacrima
(Being demons that most likely use cursed powers) Like I said before to destroy the lacrima they may need something that can affect dragons as well if Brandish theory so right
Sorry, but let I correct you too:
Mira didn't have the strenght to beat Sayla alone in a physical clash. She was stomped by Sayla's Etherious form. If Mirajane was strong enough to just beat Sayla with her physical prowess and spells, she would have won. Actually, Sayla also couldn't use her Macro on Mirajane because of Mirajane's Take Over power.
Mirajane couldn't Take Over Sayla because she is an Etherious, a demon far stronger than the ones that Mirajane can "take over" (it wasn't because of Macro).
To "Take Over" a demon this strong, Mirajane needs to do it with the demon weakened, after being beated.
If I remember correctly, the first definition of a Take Over Wizard is to fight creatures and, then, absorve the beaten creatures.
Here is the pages with Mard Geer and Sayla puting the act of being Etherious beyond Mirajane's level:
However, with effort, Mirajane was able to use Take Over power on Sayla to take control of her Macro for a moment and comand Elfman to come to the battlefield to "save his family".
Mira didn't have the strenght to beat Sayla alone in a physical clash. She was stomped by Sayla's Etherious form. If Mirajane was strong enough to just beat Sayla with her physical prowess and spells, she would have won. Actually, Sayla also couldn't use her Macro on Mirajane because of Mirajane's Take Over power.
Mirajane couldn't Take Over Sayla because she is an Etherious, a demon far stronger than the ones that Mirajane can "take over" (it wasn't because of Macro).
To "Take Over" a demon this strong, Mirajane needs to do it with the demon weakened, after being beated.
If I remember correctly, the first definition of a Take Over Wizard is to fight creatures and, then, absorve the beaten creatures.
Here is the pages with Mard Geer and Sayla puting the act of being Etherious beyond Mirajane's level:
However, with effort, Mirajane was able to use Take Over power on Sayla to take control of her Macro for a moment and comand Elfman to come to the battlefield to "save his family".
I didn't mention that Mirajane had the strength to defeat Seilah in pure power. I stated that Mirajane could defeat Seilah with just Take Over, if the Macro didn't prevent it.
And yes, the only reason Mira didn't defeat Seilah quickly was due to Macro. After Mira loses the battle, she decides to change strategy and use Take Over on Seilah's ability (Macro) to gain control of that ability (which she manages momentarily).
----
After discussing with Jhonatas elsewhere (we are friends), I think he is right. Mira was inferior to Seilah overall and was unable to take control of the demon's body with Take Over due to this.
I have already proven that the Historia's physical status isn't much weaker, since Gildarts and God Serena Historia were even in a physical clash. Actually, Gildarts needed to spam "Crash Magic" to get an opening on God Serena Historia to defeat him. If Gildarts couldn't just blitz a Historia, no one in the guild could do it. Thus, Minerva was getting the upper hand in the physical fight with a Historia that, when alive, could pressure Laxus in physical status.
To say that they were even it's stretching, Historia Serena was just holding his own against Gildarts, otheriwse he wouldn't be regarded as a small fry weaker than alive Serena. And again alive GS was above other spriggans like Wahl, he was even above Laxus, so it's not like historia Wahl is any close to historia GS. Wahl tanked Laxus physical attacks with lightning immunity, without the immunity he may not have tanked these attacks, Kyria didn't tanked for example.
Rogue wasn't portrayed as base Gray. It's just your poor interpretation assuming that. Rogue fought causality the Iron Alchemist and, before the fight concluded, his magic power was stolen by Duke. Rogue didn't get the chance to use his Dragon Force or a strong spell. He and Gray didn't fight the same opponent. Base Gray didn't beat Rogue's opponent, it was Lucy with Brandish's body who did that. There is no pairing between Rogue and Gray. Your comparisons and conclusions are nonsense without any real logic.
Poor interpretation? Dude, you are putting this paring status thing for Minerva just because she was folded alongside others who displayed better feats later while she ramained with the L. What difference them not having the same opponent make? There were no real distinction in the alchemy dolls portrayal. DF is a point but since GMG his DF never seemed a high boost, so let's say he could be somewhat stronger than base Gray, is him and Minerva above Ur? No enough material to put them that high. You are trying hard to make Minerva look good, we can even say that she is fast but her power level is still below Jura and probably Ur too.
Erza needed to spam Tenrin's sword speed to get close to Luso. She would have done it if she could just run directly to Luso without spending magic power destroying the dimension.
Again i never said she didn't need to spam Tenrin's sword first to get close to Luso, i just said that it wasn't hard to do that, she don't take much time doing this
In which moment i'm not accepting it? i'm just saying that destroying Luso dimension wasn't that hard.
To say that they were even it's stretching, Historia Serena was just holding his own against Gildarts, otheriwse he wouldn't be regarded as a small fry weaker than alive Serena. And again alive GS was above other spriggans like Wahl, he was even above Laxus, so it's not like historia Wahl is any close to historia GS. Wahl tanked Laxus physical attacks with lightning immunity, without the immunity he may not have tanked these attacks, Kyria didn't tanked for example.
Poor interpretation? Dude, you are putting this paring status thing for Minerva just because she was folded alongside others who displayed better feats later while she ramained with the L. What difference them not having the same opponent make? There were no real distinction in the alchemy dolls portrayal. DF is a point but since GMG his DF never seemed a high boost, so let's say he could be somewhat stronger than base Gray, is him and Minerva above Ur? No enough material to put them that high. You are trying hard to make Minerva look good, we can even say that she is fast but her power level is still below Jura and probably Ur too.
Again i never said she didn't need to spam Tenrin's sword first to get close to Luso, i just said that it wasn't hard to do that, she don't take much time doing this
You're saying that destroying Luso's dimensions isn't a big deal even after I proved that Tenrin's sword destruction can keep up with Laxus Red Lighting projectiles. Luso didn't give the trouble Laxus did to Erza because Laxus is stronger than Luso and because Luso is easily defeated when you get close to her. However, Erza needed to put effort into getting close to her.
God Serena Historia was even with Gildarts in physical clash. If God Serena were severely weaker than Gildarts, he would be sent away by the clash instead of holding Gildart's physical strength. At the end of the fight, Gildarts had a blood mark around his mouth and it was revealed that both wizards kept spamming their magics (God Serena using her elements, and Gildarts breaking it) until Gildarts got the opening to use a finishing spelll. It's pretty clear that God Serena gave Gildarts a medium difficulty, which proves that God Serena is a "small fry" compared to her live self, but also proves that his Historia version could be a challenge to Fairy Tail wizards below Gildarts' level (which is basically anyone).
Wahl alive is strong enough to keep a fight with Laxus, who is also obviously stronger than Minerva, so Minerva showing the upper hand in physical combat against Wahl-Historia is a good feat because Gildarts wasn't able to do that with a Historia that, when alive, is his equal. On the other hand, Minerva was physically dominating a Historia that, when alive, was stronger than her (because it is in the Laxus' tier). Is that clear?
I made a clear analysis of how Minerva's speed was well-portrayed and paired with Erza's when Jellal, Erza, and Minerva fought Luso and needed to run away because her hax alchemia turned them into dogs. Later, Erza alone fought Luso in a serious battle and the Titania was portrayed with difficulty getting close to attack her foe, and the Titania was also being hit by similar creatures that Minerva dealt before. So why are you trying to negate Minerva's speed feats?
DF is very important to Rogue and Sting's strength since Sting entered DF after receiving Rogue's power in the battle with Larcade. We didn't see Rogue fighting seriously in the Viernes Arc, he was just acting casual, so if his "base form" is close to "base Gray form" that's not a problem. However, since his "base form" could keep up with and defeat Bloodman-Historia, I would say he is stronger than base Gray. However, base Gray defeated Hakune, which is a good feat. The problem is it happened in a world where Gray's magic power was enhanced.
If Gray contradicts Makarov, I'm listening to Makarov. Why do people mention Ajeel's opinion like he wasn't claiming he could solo Ishgar the chapter before. Not a reliable witness at all
Different kinds of "minions" created by Luso could hit Erza, and the bear that Minerva was keeping dodging has punch with AOE, thus besides dodge the punch directly, Minerva also needed to dodge the impact zone generated by it.
Taurus hit Athena when she was holding two power magic balls in both her hands and Athena is the kind of fighter who lets people hit her because she can endure it without being hurt. It's not even close to what happened with Erza and with the pairing status situation that happened with Minerva and Erza.
Erza needed to destroy Luso's dimension (i.e., Luso's creation) to get close to her and blitz her. Period. Just accepted what manga is showing.
Nagakami was Erza strongest armor of the time and Erza can really endure her damage to finish her fights. We are talking of the warrior who made Irene undo her dragon form while fighting Dragon Irene with almost all her bones broken. What is a very hurt leg in comparison with this?
Wahl can have "immunity" to lightning, but since he can tank Laxus's monstrous strength (I mean, Laxus kick destroyed three floors of a building, and Wahl come out unharmed from this kick) and have speed to hit physical attacks on Laxus, Wahl is strong. Maybe Wahl is the weakest of the 12 because he has the lowest power attack. He also mistook a shot on Laxus for any reason, so he sounded kind of "amateurish" at some moments.
I have already proven that the Historia's physical status isn't much weaker, since Gildarts and God Serena Historia were even in a physical clash. Actually, Gildarts needed to spam "Crash Magic" to get an opening on God Serena Historia to defeat him. If Gildarts couldn't just blitz a Historia, no one in the guild could do it. Thus, Minerva was getting the upper hand in the physical fight with a Historia that, when alive, could pressure Laxus in physical status.
Rogue wasn't portrayed as base Gray. It's just your poor interpretation assuming that. Rogue fought causality the Iron Alchemist and, before the fight concluded, his magic power was stolen by Duke. Rogue didn't get the chance to use his Dragon Force or a strong spell. He and Gray didn't fight the same opponent. Base Gray didn't beat Rogue's opponent, it was Lucy with Brandish's body who did that. There is no pairing between Rogue and Gray. Your comparisons and conclusions are nonsense without any real logic.
Erza is naturally fast. She doesn't need to get bloodlust to get fast. She IS fast. Getting blood-lusted just made her more serious, but that doesn't change the fact that pissed (blood-lusted) Erza needed to spam Tenrin's sword speed to get close to Luso. She would have done it if she could just run directly to Luso without spending magic power destroying the dimension.
Again: you will not win this. I know this subject, and you don't.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
She is just badly analyzed by the ones who think like you.
Where is the Wahl is weak narrative coming from? This man made a bad copy out of boredom and it was also operating on Spriggan level. Enough to be sent on a completely seperate mission.
Oracion Seis fighting is irrelevant, ok demons strong enough to beat Aldoron in a direct fight can struggle with Oracion Seis as much as they want and everyone has to accept that they fought directly with Aldoron no matter what happens in the manga, fine bro, fine 
What can i say man?
