Fantasy Gajeel Redfox vs. Gray Fullbuster

[Brandish μ]

I honestly thought we were predicting how strong they are right now; or at least comparing how they were in Tartarus. Those without Alvarez feats is up against the wall vs someone with Avlarez feats (Natsu would own Jellal low diff for example).

If it comes down to feats then Ice Make silver has large AoE and can freeze huge attacks. It didn't freeze Ajeel. Sure he is going to be stronger than Gajeel, but could it be said that Gajeel gets frozen by IM:Silver? I doubt Tartarus Gajeel is frozen. Freezing a huge sand creation is different from a wizard, in terms of MP anyway, I mean how many times have we seen someone pull off powerful spells when they look exhausted?

Gray also has some Avatar feats where he showed some nice moves. Gray's MP is on another level according to Makarov and this is proven to me by the AoE of Silver. I'd give current Gray > Tartarus Gajeel fairly easily, I can see Gray winning it by standing in the same spot and casting.

If it comes down to hype we've got Gray's secret attack for END/Zeref plus I'm sure he has better feats to come; and with Gajeel there is his feats and Dragon Force to come. On hype I back Gajeel. I also don't rate Gray's improvement as huge like Natsu's, so saying Gajeel could have had similar improvement is not risky.

 

[Dranzer]

This thread is pretty much a string on biased answers from both sides xD (I'm joking) but just wanted to tell you guys to try to keep the discussion civil.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

I honestly thought we were predicting how strong they are right now; or at least comparing how they were in Tartarus. Those without Alvarez feats is up against the wall vs someone with Avlarez feats (Natsu would own Jellal low diff for example).

Yeah, we are. We're not comparing from different timeskips though, at least I'm not. We should compare them in the same timeskip, so our best choices from which we can compare them are in Tartaros Arc, Avatar Arc, or Alvarez Arc.

If it comes down to feats then Ice Make silver has large AoE and can freeze huge attacks. It didn't freeze Ajeel. Sure he is going to be stronger than Gajeel, but could it be said that Gajeel gets frozen by IM:Silver? I doubt Tartarus Gajeel is frozen. Freezing a huge sand creation is different from a wizard, in terms of MP anyway, I mean how many times have we seen someone pull off powerful spells when they look exhausted?

Well, this is debatable but I don't see any reason to not believe so. I'm not quite sure what you mean by a creation and wizard being different in terms of MP. I probably need you to explain that.

Anyways, here is my explanation. Whether it is an attacks or human, they both still consist of MP. Basically, when Ajeel used his magic attack to create the Sand Golem, he used his own MP to create it so it would still consist of his MP. This means that because Gray could freeze something above Gajeel in energy, I don't see the difference or why Gray couldn't. I have to admit that this is part speculation as I don't exactly have proof but this is how I explain it.

By the way, there is only one difference between freezing and attack and a human. It is tangibility. Humans are tangible and magic attacks are intangible. But Gray was seen to freeze an 'intangible object' like Tempesta's Tornado Attacks so why can't he freeze a tangible one with considerably less MP? I can say that Gray froze Bickslow's magic but this could introduce an error as Bickslow uses some sort of soul magic. Then I could say that Gray can freeze objects. Like maybe weapons in Edolas. Because the people of Edolas have no internal magic, they rely on external magic like weapons. If you use Erza Knightwalker's spear/halbert, I bet it would contain a lot of magic power in it. Overall, I'm trying to say if a weapon with more Magic power than a fodder like Wakaba, could Gray have the power to freeze both? Essentially, this is the same as Sand Golem and Gajeel. I would say yes, but either way, we'll soon find out.

We have seen exhausted characters pull off powerful attacks but that just means they used all of their MP to do so. I've never seen a character who used a powerful attack while being exhausted and looking the same afterwards. Usually, they either fall to the ground and collapse or they are weak to the point they need someone to either help them as well as support them to just stand

Gray also has some Avatar feats where he showed some nice moves. Gray's MP is on another level according to Makarov and this is proven to me by the AoE of Silver. I'd give current Gray > Tartarus Gajeel fairly easily, I can see Gray winning it by standing in the same spot and casting.

If it comes down to hype we've got Gray's secret attack for END/Zeref plus I'm sure he has better feats to come; and with Gajeel there is his feats and Dragon Force to come. On hype I back Gajeel. I also don't rate Gray's improvement as huge like Natsu's, so saying Gajeel could have had similar improvement is not risky.

Yeah, I wouldn't say Gray improved as much as Natsu, but I also couldn't say it for Gajeel either.

 

[Brandish μ]

- I see it the same, if an attack can stop a move it must be equivalent or higher in power. It's a simple but logical way to look at it. Laxus stopped Ajeel's sands of death with a lightning bolt, so the bolt >= wave for example. Only time this really will get skewed is if there is a weakness.

- Basically this would apply to whether or not Gray can freeze (or oneshot) Gajeel. Intangibility may reduce how effective Gray is at freezing, but as we seen with Sand Golem he can freeze it well. Sand Golem is tangible, a shadow isn't. While something like a shadow might be a problem to freeze I don't think it is impossible in the world of magic, again it could just come down to magic power despite the intangibility.

- But why is Sand Golem having more MP than Gajeel? Think about how much magic someone can put out before they are completely exhausted. Sand Golem is casual for Ajeel. I know Ajeel > Gajeel but Ajeel used 2 spells after that which were above Sand Golem (implied) plus a few other small spells all in rapid succession and he was not even breaking a sweat. So, even though Ajeel is a spriggan, how powerful would Sand Golem actually be? More MP than Gajeel?

- Yea they fall to the ground, they've gone from a v.low MP state to a zero MP state. That demonstrates, to me at least, how much MP wizards actually have vs spells (for the most part).

- Improvement for Gray is about the same as Gajeel for me until there is feats to say for sure. If Gray = Gajeel now I will believe Gray has improved more, because I had Gajeel > Gray before.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

- I see it the same, if an attack can stop a move it must be equivalent or higher in power. It's a simple but logical way to look at it. Laxus stopped Ajeel's sands of death with a lightning bolt, so the bolt >= wave for example. Only time this really will get skewed is if there is a weakness.

- Basically this would apply to whether or not Gray can freeze (or oneshot) Gajeel. Intangibility may reduce how effective Gray is at freezing, but as we seen with Sand Golem he can freeze it well. Sand Golem is tangible, a shadow isn't. While something like a shadow might be a problem to freeze I don't think it is impossible in the world of magic, again it could just come down to magic power despite the intangibility.

- But why is Sand Golem having more MP than Gajeel? Think about how much magic someone can put out before they are completely exhausted. Sand Golem is casual for Ajeel. I know Ajeel > Gajeel but Ajeel used 2 spells after that which were above Sand Golem (implied) plus a few other small spells all in rapid succession and he was not even breaking a sweat. So, even though Ajeel is a spriggan, how powerful would Sand Golem actually be? More MP than Gajeel?

- Yea they fall to the ground, they've gone from a v.low MP state to a zero MP state. That demonstrates, to me at least, how much MP wizards actually have vs spells (for the most part).

- Improvement for Gray is about the same as Gajeel for me until there is feats to say for sure. If Gray = Gajeel now I will believe Gray has improved more, because I had Gajeel > Gray before.

Oh okay. Yeah, I see your point here. Now that you mention it, I'm not sure where the MP of Sand Golem would be compared to Gajeel. Current Alvarez Gajeel definitely has more. Tartaros Gajeel? I would say it has more but then I am probably using hype. Therefore, I will say it is probably equal because of the time difference. If you want to say it has less, I wouldn't be able to argue against it.

 

[Brandish μ]

Well freezing Gajeel is the same as oneshotting to me. We seen Natsu oneshot Bluenote, someone above Tartarus Gajeel. So it won't be a huge shock I gray could oneshot Gajeel. It's probably more of a durability thing than MP though for both Bluenote and Gajeel. Edit: sometimes putting things down to MP terms can get a little confusing so I do apologise for making MP arguments when there really is no way of knowing, it is easier to talk about things in durability or damage capacity terms I would say.

I also think IM Silver is stronger than Sand Golem, simply because the AoE covered more than just the golem.

 

[Vasgoko]

Well freezing Gajeel is the same as oneshotting to me. We seen Natsu oneshot Bluenote, someone above Tartarus Gajeel. So it won't be a huge shock I gray could oneshot Gajeel. It's probably more of a durability thing than MP though for both Bluenote and Gajeel. Edit: sometimes putting things down to MP terms can get a little confusing so I do apologise for making MP arguments when there really is no way of knowing, it is easier to talk about things in durability or damage capacity terms I would say.

I also think IM Silver is stronger than Sand Golem, simply because the AoE covered more than just the golem.

Well, I don't know if Bluenote is stronger than Tartaros Gajeel. I mean, at least I don't know about any proof of that.

Bluenote is quite overrated. Of course Bluenote has improved, but in Alvarez arc, he is still fodder to the rest. Natsu oneshotting a bunch of characters after the one year timeskip has shown us nothing but cool explosions.

There has been nothing BUT oneshots. Erza oneshotted Jerome, Juvia oneshotted Braiya, Lucy pretty much oneshotted Mary, Gray oneshotted Goumon, and Natsu oneshotted Bluenote, Arlock, and Ikusa-Tsunagi.

All fodders, it really shows nothing.


And I'm not saying Gray would oneshot Gajeel either, but Gray sure as hell has enough feats to take Gajeel down. When Gajeel gets Dragon Force, I will consider him being up there with Gray, Laxus, and Natsu...but for now, he barely surpasses Erza.

ISD is outdated, Gajeel is lucky that Gray was actually on the good side in Avatar Arc and that he didn't have to fight Gray, cuz if he did, the Avatar guild would be the one arresting Gajeel. Not the other way around.

^
And by the way, before anybody complains, Gajeel would oneshot the entire Avatar guild. It would mostly be Gray defeating Gajeel.

 

[Axiomus]

Well, I don't know if Bluenote is stronger than Tartaros Gajeel. I mean, at least I don't know about any proof of that.

Bluenote is quite overrated. Of course Bluenote has improved, but in Alvarez arc, he is still fodder to the rest. Natsu oneshotting a bunch of characters after the one year timeskip has shown us nothing but cool explosions.

There has been nothing BUT oneshots. Erza oneshotted Jerome, Juvia oneshotted Braiya, Lucy pretty much oneshotted Mary, Gray oneshotted Goumon, and Natsu oneshotted Bluenote, Arlock, and Ikusa-Tsunagi.

All fodders, it really shows nothing.


And I'm not saying Gray would oneshot Gajeel either, but Gray sure as hell has enough feats to take Gajeel down. When Gajeel gets Dragon Force, I will consider him being up there with Gray, Laxus, and Natsu...but for now, he barely surpasses Erza.

ISD is outdated, Gajeel is lucky that Gray was actually on the good side in Avatar Arc and that he didn't have to fight Gray, cuz if he did, the Avatar guild would be the one arresting Gajeel. Not the other way around.

^
And by the way, before anybody complains, Gajeel would oneshot the entire Avatar guild. It would mostly be Gray defeating Gajeel.

Bluenote is not a fodder. Bluenote was on Gildart's level. Hades even considered him a beast, and prior to Gildarts showing up he considered Bluenote. At the very least, Bluenote was comparable to GMG Jura. Depending on whether or not Jura improved vastly over the timeskip, he may even be comparable to current Jura. It's silly to even try to compare Bluenote to the fodders that made up Avatar. That's like saying all those guys would have given the same difficulty to Gildarts as Bluenote did. Saying Bluenote is a fodder is like saying every Laxus tier prior to the 1 year timeskip is fodder. That simply isn't true.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 5, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 5, 2016 ---

Well freezing Gajeel is the same as oneshotting to me. We seen Natsu oneshot Bluenote, someone above Tartarus Gajeel. So it won't be a huge shock I gray could oneshot Gajeel. It's probably more of a durability thing than MP though for both Bluenote and Gajeel. Edit: sometimes putting things down to MP terms can get a little confusing so I do apologise for making MP arguments when there really is no way of knowing, it is easier to talk about things in durability or damage capacity terms I would say.

I also think IM Silver is stronger than Sand Golem, simply because the AoE covered more than just the golem.

To be fair, we've never seen Gray oneshot Bluenote level mages. That's Natsu's feat, which doesn't necessarily scale to Gray (or Gajeel). I'm not willing to give him that level of hype. Being able to oneshot characters like Bluenote is something that I will only believe through feats. Gray has to oneshot a mage as capable of Bluenote. I'll say Gray is superior to Tartarus Gajeel because Ice-Make: Silver is a more impressive feat than any of Gajeel's right now, but even Tartarus Gajeel shouldn't be oneshottable.

 

[Brandish μ]

Well, I don't know if Bluenote is stronger than Tartaros Gajeel. I mean, at least I don't know about any proof of that.

Bluenote is quite overrated. Of course Bluenote has improved, but in Alvarez arc, he is still fodder to the rest. Natsu oneshotting a bunch of characters after the one year timeskip has shown us nothing but cool explosions.

There has been nothing BUT oneshots. Erza oneshotted Jerome, Juvia oneshotted Braiya, Lucy pretty much oneshotted Mary, Gray oneshotted Goumon, and Natsu oneshotted Bluenote, Arlock, and Ikusa-Tsunagi.

All fodders, it really shows nothing.


And I'm not saying Gray would oneshot Gajeel either, but Gray sure as hell has enough feats to take Gajeel down. When Gajeel gets Dragon Force, I will consider him being up there with Gray, Laxus, and Natsu...but for now, he barely surpasses Erza.

ISD is outdated, Gajeel is lucky that Gray was actually on the good side in Avatar Arc and that he didn't have to fight Gray, cuz if he did, the Avatar guild would be the one arresting Gajeel. Not the other way around.
^
And by the way, before anybody complains, Gajeel would oneshot the entire Avatar guild. It would mostly be Gray defeating Gajeel.

How do you even know Bluenote improved? He did the same stuff to Wendy and co and then got blasted.

Bluenote's rating should be according to what we seen on Tenrou, where he was able to go 1 on 1 for a while against a very serious Gildarts. It was a fist fight where Bluenote took very little damage, are Gildarts punches fodder? When things got serious Gildarts overwhelmed Bluenote with crash. I got the feeling that Bluenote's durability was pretty good, close to Gildarts level.

Oneshotting is about the difference in power - or specifically the DC of an attack v durability. You can't call them fodders, you can just say that the durability is below the attack. I'd say the Avatar members are fodder, but the god and Bluenote aren't. We know Bluenote's durability = being virtually unharmed after a fist fight with Gildarts; so Bluenote getting oneshotted just means that Natsu's roar is on a completely different damage level than having a fist fight with Gildarts. The war god put a slash through the ground that I would not associate with fodder.

Gray has done nothing to suggest he could even survive one roar of Natsu's. Only thing that even gives Gray a chance is that he could possibly hurt Natsu with DeS - because Natsu = END. In terms of power you'd have to milk all the hype for Gray and then some for him to be close to BASE Natsu.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 5, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 5, 2016 ---

To be fair, we've never seen Gray oneshot Bluenote level mages. That's Natsu's feat, which doesn't necessarily scale to Gray (or Gajeel). I'm not willing to give him that level of hype. Being able to oneshot characters like Bluenote is something that I will only believe through feats. Gray has to oneshot a mage as capable of Bluenote. I'll say Gray is superior to Tartarus Gajeel because Ice-Make: Silver is a more impressive feat than any of Gajeel's right now, but even Tartarus Gajeel shouldn't be oneshottable.

Yea I was responding to the claims of IM Silver being possibly able to freeze Gajeel (just like the Sand Golem). To me freezing someone completely is a oneshot, no real difference magically to roaring someone with oneshot. People might see 'freezing' as something more potent than a punch or fire attack, but that's subjective to me it really comes down to magic power. I do agree that one-shotting is a pretty big claim so feats would need to prove it. I was essentially scaling the oneshotting of Gajeel to Gray if people think the difference between Bluenote and Gajeel (Tartarus) is about the same as Natsu and Gray respectively, but yes Gray would need to prove such offensive prowess.

 

[Mirage]

Bluenote was stalemating with a magicless Gildarts.

Gray never froze anything solid that ain't fodder, he's not freezing Gajeel.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Well freezing Gajeel is the same as oneshotting to me. We seen Natsu oneshot Bluenote, someone above Tartarus Gajeel. So it won't be a huge shock I gray could oneshot Gajeel. It's probably more of a durability thing than MP though for both Bluenote and Gajeel. Edit: sometimes putting things down to MP terms can get a little confusing so I do apologise for making MP arguments when there really is no way of knowing, it is easier to talk about things in durability or damage capacity terms I would say.

I also think IM Silver is stronger than Sand Golem, simply because the AoE covered more than just the golem.

I wouldn't classify freezing as one-shot to be honest. My definition of one-shot is killing the enemy or defeating your opponent for good. According to my definition, you can never associate freezing to one-shot. I mean Gray could freeze his opponent and proceed by either breaking the 'statue' with physical force or using another strong magical spell to finish that person off. But that would be considered a two-shot, so to say. That does not mean he can't one-shot though. Ice Devil Slayers can use their top 3 spells to one-shot someone, like how Gray basically did on Tempesta. Of course, against a human, there would be three examples that would allow him to perform such a feat for now. First, he would have to be stronger than that person by a lot. Second, his opponent is a fodder. Third, his 'attack penetration' easily outclasses the enemy's durability.

Overall, I would consider freezing more like a CC, where he makes the person vulnerable and unable to move. In Gajeel's case, I wouldn't see Gray one-shot him, but I wouldn't see him struggle as much as others painted. Note that I'm not saying this is a easy match for Gray either.

 

[Brandish μ]

I wouldn't classify freezing as one-shot to be honest. My definition of one-shot is killing the enemy or defeating your opponent for good. According to my definition, you can never associate freezing to one-shot. I mean Gray could freeze his opponent and proceed by either breaking the 'statue' with physical force or using another strong magical spell to finish that person off. But that would be considered a two-shot, so to say. That does not mean he can't one-shot though. Ice Devil Slayers can use their top 3 spells to one-shot someone, like how Gray basically did on Tempesta. Of course, against a human, there would be three examples that would allow him to perform such a feat for now. First, he would have to be stronger than that person by a lot. Second, his opponent is a fodder. Third, his 'attack penetration' easily outclasses the enemy's durability.

Overall, I would consider freezing more like a CC, where he makes the person vulnerable and unable to move. In Gajeel's case, I wouldn't see Gray one-shot him, but I wouldn't see him struggle as much as others painted. Note that I'm not saying this is a easy match for Gray either.

Throughout the whole discussion on IM Silver I thought we were talking about Gray's potential to freeze Gajeel. I never really got the impression that anyone was saying it's temporary or a stopping move (like subzero from mortal kombat) more like a magic attack that has the intent to freeze something completely.

You can kill someone by freezing them. If you've frozen someone solid like a statue you don't need to break the 'statue' to kill it, it's dead.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Throughout the whole discussion on IM Silver I thought we were talking about Gray's potential to freeze Gajeel. I never really got the impression that anyone was saying it's temporary or a stopping move (like subzero from mortal kombat) more like a magic attack that has the intent to freeze something completely.

You can kill someone by freezing them. If you've frozen someone solid like a statue you don't need to break the 'statue' to kill it, it's dead.

Well, usually anything frozen can be melted somehow. It could be with fire magic, moon drip, etc. I mean in real life, if you freeze someone, you'd kill them. But in Fairy Tail, you can usually reverse it. I can't think of a scenario in Fairy Tail where someone died by being frozen. But then, freezing could be done in many ways besides Ice like Evergreen's magic. Using her eyes, she froze the female Fairy Tail Mages as stone. But Natsu burned it off of Erza due to her weak eye, while Evergreen later reversed it. Deilora was frozen but the Moon Drip melted his Ice. The reason Deliora was dying was because of the effect of Iced Shell and not because of being 'frozen'. And then we saw Atlas Flame Soul + Giants being frozen but later melted, thanks to Gray.

Going back to your point about Ice Make: Silver, it is true we saw Gray freeze the Sand Golem almost immediately but we also saw Ajeel jump off it. My guess would be that it just disappeared afterwards as Ajeel 'canceled' his magic. We were indeed discussing whether Gray could freeze Gajeel, but if he did, it wouldn't be a one-shot because Gajeel is still 'alive' except he would be frozen. This does not mean it would definitely end in a two-shot because Gray's supposedly finishing move that follows might break the Ice yet not kill Gajeel. Thus, the fight would continue to last longer.

 

[Brandish μ]

Well, usually anything frozen can be melted somehow. It could be with fire magic, moon drip, etc. I mean in real life, if you freeze someone, you'd kill them. But in Fairy Tail, you can usually reverse it. I can't think of a scenario in Fairy Tail where someone died by being frozen. But then, freezing could be done many ways besides Ice like Evergreen's magic. Using her eyes, she froze the female Fairy Tail Mages as stone. But Natsu burned it off of Erza due to her weak eye, while Evergreen later reversed it. Deilora was frozen but the Moon Drip melted his Ice. The reason Deliora was dying was because of the effect of Iced Shell and not being 'frozen'. And then we saw Atlas Flame Soul + Giants being frozen but later melted thanks to Gray.

Going back to your point about Ice Make: Silver, it is true we saw Gray freeze the Sand Golem almost immediately but we also saw Ajeel jump off it. My guess would be that it just disappeared afterwards as Ajeel either 'canceled' his magic. We were indeed discussing whether Gray could freeze Gajeel, but if he did, it wouldn't be a one-shot because Gajeel is still 'alive' except he would be frozen. This does not mean it would definitely end in a two-shot because Gray's supposedly finishing move following might break the Ice yet not kill Gajeel. Thus, the fight would continue to last longer.

I agree with your points about ice effects on 'freezing' individuals it is my fault for not considering previous instances of freezing. But I wasn't really talking about killing Gajeel, in FT almost all attacks never kill. It was more about if you freeze Gajeel you win the fight, I mean that is kind of how freezing has been protrayed in the discussion, as whether it would work on Gajeel. For Ajeel he broke from it, for fodders they didn't. If you can't break from it, you're one-shotted. It's not that you're technically defeated (if death/KO is the means of technical defeat), but you can't fight on because you're imprisoned. But I understand what you're saying that the freezing itself is not actually defeating Gajeel just stopping him.

 

[Holt]

Moderator Notice:
Please stay on-topic. This is Gajeel vs Gray. Bluenote, Gildarts etc have nothing to do with the thread. You can always create threads for such battles~ Holt

 

[Sora]

Gray.

Impossible to tell by feats. Gray doesn't have use IDSM on Humans but Gajeel doesn't beat great ennemies. Only Hype for now even if it's forbidden. =p

 

[Coné]

Gray.

Impossible to tell by feats. Gray doesn't have use IDSM on Humans but Gajeel doesn't beat great ennemies. Only Hype for now even if it's forbidden. =p

@bold: Both of them have enough feats to judge what would happen as of now.
@underlined: Gajeel defeated Etherious Torafusa.

 

[Sora]

When I say "great ennemies", it's about a Boss or an under-Boss. Torafusa is not a big deal, on par with Jackal/Tempesta & co.

 

[Coné]

When I say "great ennemies", it's about a Boss or an under-Boss. Torafusa is not a big deal, on par with Jackal/Tempesta & co.

Neither did Gray solo any Boss. Just saying, Torafusa's defense was pretty strong. He could probably tank any of Erza or LFD Natsu's attacks seing that he was barely scratched by ISD Gajeel.

 

[Sora]

Gray would have two shot Marde Geer without the intervention of Jienma. Even Natsu/Sting/Rogue together didn't go this far.

Gajeel was HS after his battle against Torafusa when Gray keep battling even after defeated Silver (Without EIM).