Because Erza is at the level where she can't solo Ajeel, and neither can Gray.
Gray wasn't on par with Invel. He hit him with one attack while slightly distracted, then after that Invel stopped the attack with his hand and then made blizzard.
Invel isn't much stronger than Ajeel, if at all. They're relatively similar imo.
I can concede the point about the Laxus/Gray comparison, but then that's simply elevating Gray because of a result Laxus achieved. The same could be said about Erza or Mirajane, if we're allowing this for Gray.
The black marks are quite powerful, but not enough for him to solo Invel/Ajeel/Wahl level opponents, imo.
Because Erza is at the level where she can't solo Ajeel, and neither can Gray.
Gray wasn't on par with Invel. He hit him with one attack while slightly distracted, then after that Invel stopped the attack with his hand and then made blizzard.
Invel isn't much stronger than Ajeel, if at all. They're relatively similar imo.
I can concede the point about the Laxus/Gray comparison, but then that's simply elevating Gray because of a result Laxus achieved. The same could be said about Erza or Mirajane, if we're allowing this for Gray.
The black marks are quite powerful, but not enough for him to solo Invel/Ajeel/Wahl level opponents, imo.
Freezing Natsu means he can lock Natsu in one place for a time. Natsu (and others) emerged from this stasis with no damage or impairment whatsoever. So perhaps if Invel kept attacking iced Natsu then maybe he would have won. But he certainly wasn't at the point of killing Natsu.
Natsu didn't burn the desiccant sand. This sand washed Gray's ice away. Natsu didn't get a shot at it.
The main difference between between Invel and Ajeel is personality. Invel doesn't waste time, Ajeel does. This makes Invel an overall better combatant, but he's not necessarily more powerful. If he fought Ajeel, the outcome would be high diff to the winner.
Double handicapped Laxus also had the means to overcome said handicaps in battle. He finished the fight with one of those handicaps removed, and through red lightning he was able to negate the other handicap. He took more damage than he should have without sickness, but he still had the power necessary to win. In Gray's case he hasn't shown anything that would make me think he has the power to beat Wall.
Are you insinuating that Erza isn't stronger than she was in Tartarus arc? I know Gray trained, yet his results are not yet Spriggan level. He's not comparable to Natsu in that regard, imo.
Freezing Natsu means he can lock Natsu in one place for a time. Natsu (and others) emerged from this stasis with no damage or impairment whatsoever. So perhaps if Invel kept attacking iced Natsu then maybe he would have won. But he certainly wasn't at the point of killing Natsu.
Natsu didn't burn the desiccant sand. This sand washed Gray's ice away. Natsu didn't get a shot at it.
The main difference between between Invel and Ajeel is personality. Invel doesn't waste time, Ajeel does. This makes Invel an overall better combatant, but he's not necessarily more powerful. If he fought Ajeel, the outcome would be high diff to the winner.
Double handicapped Laxus also had the means to overcome said handicaps in battle. He finished the fight with one of those handicaps removed, and through red lightning he was able to negate the other handicap. He took more damage than he should have without sickness, but he still had the power necessary to win. In Gray's case he hasn't shown anything that would make me think he has the power to beat Wall.
Are you insinuating that Erza isn't stronger than she was in Tartarus arc? I know Gray trained, yet his results are not yet Spriggan level. He's not comparable to Natsu in that regard, imo.
I'm not saying Invel > Natsu, but it was a close call and a great feat for Invel.
Compared to Ajeel, Invel's magic is stronger by default. Personality is just icing on the cake.
As for overcoming handicaps, Gray is the most famous for that. Not only does he have high endurance, he is always at a disadvantage. But his intelligence wins it for him.
Gray at least = Double-handicapped Laxus, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm not implying that Erza didn't get stronger over the timeskip.
But I am implying that the power gap between Erza and Gray/Natsu has long since been bridged.
I highly doubt Natsu was frozen to the point that Invel could shatter him. If this was true Natsu would have been dead. If Natsu were weaker maybe Invel's freeze would have been permanent therefore leading to death. But it wasn't.
As for overcoming handicaps, Gray is the most famous for that. Not only does he have high endurance, he is always at a disadvantage. But his intelligence wins it for him.
Gray at least = Double-handicapped Laxus, as far as I'm concerned.
He's had handicaps in his matches previously, but that shows Gray's qualities as a fighter. It doesn't buy him auto-wins just because he's beaten the odds. He's resilient just like Erza for example. Imo he is very intelligent, but it's not to the point where he just outright beats anyone because of it.
It depends on what you classify as double-handicapped. Gray isn't as strong as the Laxus who used Red Lightning. Gray isn't as strong as the Laxus who fought Wall for most of ch 472. Gray would wipe the floor with sick Laxus. Gray would not be able to replicate all of Laxus' performance in 472/473 imo. But that said I think Gray could go close. To beat Wall, Gray doesn't have something like Red Lightning.
I highly doubt Natsu was frozen to the point that Invel could shatter him. If this was true Natsu would have been dead. If Natsu were weaker maybe Invel's freeze would have been permanent therefore leading to death. But it wasn't.
I do agree it's a solid feat for Invel.
There is no reason why Ice >=< Sand.
He's had handicaps in his matches previously, but that shows Gray's qualities as a fighter. It doesn't buy him auto-wins just because he's beaten the odds. He's resilient just like Erza for example. Imo he is very intelligent, but it's not to the point where he just outright beats anyone because of it.
It depends on what you classify as double-handicapped. Gray isn't as strong as the Laxus who used Red Lightning. Gray isn't as strong as the Laxus who fought Wall for most of ch 472. Gray would wipe the floor with sick Laxus. Gray would not be able to replicate all of Laxus' performance in 472/473 imo. But that said I think Gray could go close. To beat Wall, Gray doesn't have something like Red Lightning.
I do agree the gap has been bridged. Natsu's surpassed Erza, Gray hasn't (until end of ch 499).
Base Natsu ~ Erza ~ Black Markings Gray > Base Gajeel > Base Gray... is kinda how I see it.
It's not about being weak or not. Invel simply froze Natsu and sent a projectile his way. Gray used Ice Make: Shield to block that attack which is why Natsu and Lucy did not sustain any damage.
As for the ice and sand deal, I'm not saying Ice > Sand.
I'm saying the strength of Invel's ice is a lot stronger than the Ajeel's sand. In other words, Invel is just more magically powerful than Ajeel.
Gray isn't just intelligent. He has shown to have high endurance, stamina, and perseverance. Gray actually has feats regarding strength, power, and durability... not just intelligence.
You don't need Red Lightning to beat Wahl. The reason why Laxus needed to use RL is because Wahl is immune to regular lightning. That's what I mean when I say Laxus was double-handicapped (the other being his sickness).
By default, Laxus has to use a stronger lightning attack to take down Wahl because that is just the way Wahl was designed/programmed.
If you take out Wahl's immunity to lightning, something like a full-powered Raging Bolt may be enough to rip Wahl to shreds.
Since Wahl's physical body is not immune to ice though, any one of Gray's decent spells should be able to kill Wahl (for example, Ice Devil Zeroth Destructive Bow or Long Sword).
As for the power gap between Natsu, Erza, and Gray, I just disagree there, but you are entitled to your opinions.
I think it was pretty clear that Gray surpassed Erza by the end of Tartaros Arc.
Especially with the part about the training/timeskip. The only panel we saw of Erza during the timeskip was her sitting on a throne with a phone.
It's not about being weak or not. Invel simply froze Natsu and sent a projectile his way. Gray used Ice Make: Shield to block that attack which is why Natsu and Lucy did not sustain any damage.
Maybe that was the case. Idk, I'd have to check the anime, but either way, Natsu, Lucy, and Juvia were saved by Gray.
If Gray hadn't been there, Invel would have just froze Natsu, Lucy, and Juvia.
Invel might've let Lucy and Juvia live, but he'd probably shatter Natsu before leaving the "battlefield" because he knows Natsu's relation to Zeref.
So it doesn't really matter, even if the projectile was not aimed at Natsu, without Gray there, Natsu would have been broken ice by the time Invel leaves the battleground.
Maybe that was the case. Idk, I'd have to check the anime, but either way, Natsu, Lucy, and Juvia were saved by Gray.
If Gray hadn't been there, Invel would have just froze Natsu, Lucy, and Juvia.
Invel might've let Lucy and Juvia live, but he'd probably shatter Natsu before leaving the "battlefield" because he knows Natsu's relation to Zeref.
So it doesn't really matter, even if the projectile was not aimed at Natsu, without Gray there, Natsu would have been broken ice by the time Invel leaves the battleground.
I'm with Brandish in that I highly doubt that Invel would be able to shatter Natsu while he was frozen. Natsu would have had to be conscious when he was under the ice because he would have had to use magic to break free. This means he probably wasn't frozen to core, or at least his brain wasn't.
Maybe that was the case. Idk, I'd have to check the anime, but either way, Natsu, Lucy, and Juvia were saved by Gray.
If Gray hadn't been there, Invel would have just froze Natsu, Lucy, and Juvia.
Invel might've let Lucy and Juvia live, but he'd probably shatter Natsu before leaving the "battlefield" because he knows Natsu's relation to Zeref.
So it doesn't really matter, even if the projectile was not aimed at Natsu, without Gray there, Natsu would have been broken ice by the time Invel leaves the battleground.
Bruh that's not how ice works. It's not like Natsu literally turned into ice, he was just encased with it. No reason why he would shatter when Invel hits him -_-
I'm with Brandish in that I highly doubt that Invel would be able to shatter Natsu while he was frozen. Natsu would have had to be conscious when he was under the ice because he would have had to use magic to break free. This means he probably wasn't frozen to core, or at least his brain wasn't.
Bruh that's not how ice works. It's not like Natsu literally turned into ice, he was just encased with it. No reason why he would shatter when Invel hits him -_-
As of the recent chapters, we have confirmation that Gray is Spriggan level. Not only could he hold his own against one, he was also praised by one.
Attack
In terms of attack potency, it can go either way. If Wahl gets the chance to cast his Etherion Cannon, he might pull through. But since that attack has such a long casting time, it will be difficult to use it against Gray. As for his other attacks, it took about 2-4 of them just to injure an already weakened Laxus... So nothing impressive there.
On the other hand, Gray's Ice Devil Zeroth Long Sword was capable of injuring Invel who has Spriggan level durability. Not to mention, Gray also gets stronger the more he uses Ice Devil Slaying Magic. So his attacks will probably deal more damage when he is at full power (darkness consumes him).
In terms of AoE though, Gray wins. I don't see Wahl having anything in his arsenal that can match Gray besides his missiles which were easily cut by Kagura.
Durability
I'd say both are pretty even here. If you want to give this to Wahl, I don't mind but note that he was defeated by one single attack... His body may seem durable, but looks are deceiving. We saw Laxus shatter his body to pieces.
Gray doesn't have outstanding durability either but his endurance and stamina will help him in this fight (as seen when he went against Invel).
Speed
Gray takes this comfortably. Invel was blitzed by Gray before he even knew what had happened.
Wahl has no speed feats except matching Laxus in his physical form. The moment Laxus used Lightning Body, Wahl was blitzed.
Versatility
Wahl wins here. He can change his physique to match Gray. Meanwhile, Gray only has Ice Magic.
Intelligence
Not debatable. Gray has the edge over Wahl when we're talking about intelligence.
Magic Power
Normally, I would give this to the Spriggans. But judging from Invel's reaction and Gray's MP in the latest chapters, I would say Gray is on par with Wahl (if not higher).
It's not about being weak or not. Invel simply froze Natsu and sent a projectile his way. Gray used Ice Make: Shield to block that attack which is why Natsu and Lucy did not sustain any damage.
But Natsu's not going to shatter though. If anything Invel's freeze just stopped Natsu in his tracks. Invel would be able to land free hits, but Invel hasn't shown a single offensive move that can shatter or oneshot someone like Natsu.
Gray isn't just intelligent. He has shown to have high endurance, stamina, and perseverance. Gray actually has feats regarding strength, power, and durability... not just intelligence.
You don't need Red Lightning to beat Wahl. The reason why Laxus needed to use RL is because Wahl is immune to regular lightning. That's what I mean when I say Laxus was double-handicapped (the other being his sickness).
By default, Laxus has to use a stronger lightning attack to take down Wahl because that is just the way Wahl was designed/programmed.
If you take out Wahl's immunity to lightning, something like a full-powered Raging Bolt may be enough to rip Wahl to shreds.
It's true you don't need RL, or a tech that is as strong as it to win. I was merely stating that I wouldn't say Gray has a tech that is this strong (not counting Gray's trump because Idk what that is).
If you take away Wall's immunity then he's super-susceptible to lightning and would be shredded easily, I agree.
Since Wahl's physical body is not immune to ice though, any one of Gray's decent spells should be able to kill Wahl (for example, Ice Devil Zeroth Destructive Bow or Long Sword).
Just because Wall has no immunity it doesn't mean he's a glass cannon now. He has reasonable durability feats. None of those moves are oneshotting. Invel took Long Sword slashes twice. The first one drew blood when he was distracted, showing this tech's optimal damage output. The second time Invel blocked it with his hand and used his Ice magic defensively, making a blizzard. The power of Long Sword is roughly equivalent to a slash from Erza's Neptune sword that she used on Ajeel (Invel's physicals would be similar to Ajeel's).
In terms of AoE though, Gray wins. I don't see Wahl having anything in his arsenal that can match Gray besides his missiles which were easily cut by Kagura.
In terms of attack potency, it can go either way. If Wahl gets the chance to cast his Etherion Cannon, he might pull through. But since that attack has such a long casting time, it will be difficult to use it against Gray. As for his other attacks, it took about 2-4 of them just to injure an already weakened Laxus... So nothing impressive there.
On the other hand, Gray's Ice Devil Zeroth Long Sword was capable of injuring Invel who has Spriggan level durability. Not to mention, Gray also gets stronger the more he uses Ice Devil Slaying Magic. So his attacks will probably deal more damage when he is at full power (darkness consumes him).
Their speed would roughly be the same. Invel was distracted the first slash. The second time, when Invel's interest was piqued, he was fast enough to react with his hand. It should also be noted that Invel hasn't even tried to evade any of Gray's attacks. That either speaks to Invel's superiority, or Invel's lack of evasive capability. The latter would have a bearing on how impressive Gray's speed is.
Normally, I would give this to the Spriggans. But judging from Invel's reaction and Gray's MP in the latest chapters, I would say Gray is on par with Wahl (if not higher).
That display is likely darkness consuming Gray (a power up that he only received after Juvia died). This is not Gray's MP before ch 499. His MP is below Makarov's.
But Natsu's not going to shatter though. If anything Invel's freeze just stopped Natsu in his tracks. Invel would be able to land free hits, but Invel hasn't shown a single offensive move that can shatter or oneshot someone like Natsu.
We can agree to disagree on Invel >> Ajeel. Imo their MP is around the same, and their fighting ability isn't much different.
And in each of these I still don't think he has feats that are above Erza's for example.
It's true you don't need RL, or a tech that is as strong as it to win. I was merely stating that I wouldn't say Gray has a tech that is this strong (not counting Gray's trump because Idk what that is).
If you take away Wall's immunity then he's super-susceptible to lightning and would be shredded easily, I agree.
Just because Wall has no immunity it doesn't mean he's a glass cannon now. He has reasonable durability feats. None of those moves are oneshotting. Invel took Long Sword slashes twice. The first one drew blood when he was distracted, showing this tech's optimal damage output. The second time Invel blocked it with his hand and used his Ice magic defensively, making a blizzard. The power of Long Sword is roughly equivalent to a slash from Erza's Neptune sword that she used on Ajeel (Invel's physicals would be similar to Ajeel's).
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Gray in coming chapters could be above Laxus. It all depends if he's awakened the power that Invel spoke of, I think he has.
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What offence does Gray have that is really better in AoE? Wall has a 400km cannon. Gray has IM Silver that Ajeel casually broke out of...
Wall's damage on Laxus was impressive... injuring badly with 3 attacks is more impressive that moderate damage on Invel.
If a slash like Long Sword doesn't do damage then the attack is essentially fodder. Swords are potent.
Etherion cannon is hype, but it should be far above something like Long Sword... I don't count it, but if it is triggered it's over.
Their speed would roughly be the same. Invel was distracted the first slash. The second time, when Invel's interest was piqued, he was fast enough to react with his hand. It should also be noted that Invel hasn't even tried to evade any of Gray's attacks. That either speaks to Invel's superiority, or Invel's lack of evasive capability. The latter would have a bearing on how impressive Gray's speed is.
That display is likely darkness consuming Gray (a power up that he only received after Juvia died). This is not Gray's MP before ch 499. His MP is below Makarov's.
Can people stop saying Invel was distracted by Des Longsword. The fact is he was not. Thats literally a case of downplaying. Gray showed Invel hes going to use Des magic on him. Thats not distracting someone.
The display isnt darkness its pure rage and bloodlust. Gray has no curse dark markings.in the full page panel. Its PoF awakened Gray. Not a powerup but an emotional boost.
Why? Invel was not concentrating 100% on the battle. This doesn't take away anything from Gray's attack power, but it does mean Gray was given an opportunity. This is backed up by Invel blocking the very next attack with Long Sword. However I will say Gray definitely has the speed to land hits, but I will not be using the blitz as a true measure of Gray's speed - since Invel's reaction speed was impaired.
People have no problem saying Erza got to land a hit on a distracted Ajeel because Bakel did just that to Ajeel. Gray's speed should be around Erza's.
Why? Invel was not concentrating 100% on the battle. This doesn't take away anything from Gray's attack power, but it does mean Gray was given an opportunity. This is backed up by Invel blocking the very next attack with Long Sword. However I will say Gray definitely has the speed to land hits, but I will not be using the blitz as a true measure of Gray's speed - since Invel's reaction speed was impaired.
People have no problem saying Erza got to land a hit on a distracted Ajeel because Bakel did just that to Ajeel. Gray's speed should be around Erza's.
He was concentrating. Its not like he was looking away. Gray wasnt given any opportunity, not sure how you can say that with a straight face. Thats ridiculous downplaying. Just because Invel was surprised doesnt mean he was distracted. Gray even showed Invel that hes going to use Des. You can say Grays increased speed caught Invel offguard the first time hence he couldnt react. But he sure as hell wasnt distracted.
Ajeel was distracted. Invel was surprised not distracted. Big differnce.
He was concentrating. Its not like he was looking away. Gray wasnt given any opportunity, not sure how you can say that with a straight face. Thats ridiculous downplaying. Just because Invel was surprised doesnt mean he was distracted. Gray even showed Invel that hes going to use Des. You can say Grays increased speed caught Invel offguard the first tine hence he couldnt react. But he sure as hell wasnt diatracted.
Ajeel was distracted. Invel was surprised not distracted. Big differnce.
In a fight it only takes a small lapse in concentration, and that's what I'm saying happened to Invel. If Invel didn't ponder anything about Gray's Ice slaying magic, then he would have reacted to the first slash with similar efficiency as the second one. It's not downplaying. Unless you're implying that Gray didn't bother trying to blitz or use his true speed with the second slash, which just doesn't make sense.
I'll change the wording to "Invel let his guard down for a brief moment", I hope that is more palatable than "distraction".
The way I see it, Gray caught Invel off guard the same way a less experience boxer can catch a more experience boxer off guard by a burst of speed if the more experienced boxer underestimates the less experienced one. It wasn't, however, like Invel was distracted by something major and was looking the other way. I don't think there was any way Invel could have avoided zero longsword without previous intel. Once he acknowledged it, however, he was able to overpower it.
I see a lot of parallel's with Erza vs. Ajeel in this fight. The blizzard is basically the equivalent of Ajeel's sand world. Invel had to get serious against Gray when Gray's attacks started dealing actual damage to him. I rank Zero Longsword as above Sea God sword in attack power, but the advantage isn't overwhelming. Stuff like nakagami starlight, FDK demolition fist, and Chelia's metsukami ogi are stronger in that they can take out Spriggans. Stuff like red lightning or black iron Gajeels' punches are even stronger than that as they can kill Spriggans. Though it's debatable if an element of Wahl's death is due to his initial vulnerability to lightning.
I don't think Juvia's blood serves as a power-up. It probably just healed Gray up. Gray as we see him now is probably going all out, and at this point will present a viable threat to Invel. Personally, I think what Gray was about to do in his initial fight against Invel was to eat the snow-storm for a power-up. We'll see if something like that will play out in the next chapter. Given it's a 32 page chapter, I'm still expecting a decent amount of back and forth before Invel goes down.
Invel was caught off guard, not distracted. He wasn't aware that Gray possessed that type of speed in his arsenal. It's safe to say DeS attacks are faster in movement compared to regular ice make attacks, and hence Invel assumed it would be the same, and got attacked by it by the first time around. It's still a viable speed feat from Gray definitely.
