Fantasy Gray vs Gajeel (w/power ups)

[Seven777]

Well, technically yes, I agree that Gray had slaying advantages. But that is only a factor if the opponent is hit. Think of it like attack penetration which pierces the target's defense and causes extra damage.

Spoiler: Slaying Advantages Example

If you remember back to when Gray and Natsu fought Mard Geer, you can tell that he had a lot of trouble against Mard Geer even though he had slaying advantages. It wasn't until Gray got the chance to land a hit on Mard Geer before he could defeat him (slaying advantages come into play). But before that, he was still struggling against Mard Geer's attacks and was even on the verge of losing.

So although Gray couldn't put Natsu down (despite having slaying advantages), he was also able to block Natsu's spells and match his power which is already significant in itself.

In terms of attack power, I'd say they are relatively equal. You can see here that they were on even grounds.

Spoiler: Gray and Natsu Clash

Note this is not slayer advantage because Natsu wasn't hit (nor tanking the attack). This strictly has to do with overall power.

Additionally, we can scale Gray's durability to E.N.D's attack power since Gray was hit multiple times and received minimal damage.

Spoiler: Gray's Defense

Spoiler: Gray's Durability

Again, this is not slayer advantage because Gray was the one being hit (slaying advantages works the other way around).

Cant really scale Gray's durability to ENDs attack power because Demon Slaying magic absorbs demonic attacks

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Okay i will give my points one by one.
Note i will refer to your images by giving No.1,No.2 as in the order you posted for our convenience.

Fair enough. I don't think we'll 100% agree here, so I'll be giving my last counter-arguments on this to prevent the thread from going off-topic. You make good points though.

First of all we know Slaying advantages allow you to cover huge gap in powerlevels and even gain you a victory.
That is why Dragon Slayers in GMG managed to fight Dragons even though stronger mages like Jura failed.

I somewhat agree and disagree with this. In my opinion, slayer advantages only come into play when we're talking about damage (attack power). It shouldn't really affect defense or anything else. That is more like resistance which is only related to elements (elemental resistance).

So for the dragon slayers during the GMG, I would agree that their attacks on the dragons were more effective than someone like Jura. However, if the dragons were to swipe Jura away with one hand, I would think that the dragon slayers would share the same fate. Actually, I can see Jura tanking it better (although some may disagree).

Now coming to Gray's Des Magic i will analyse his performance


Against Tempesta
Who was either weaker or same level as Gray

Gray one shotted him

Against Mard Geer
Mard Geer was stronger than him at that time.
He destroyed him in his Base state and used one hit to finish him in his EF though DF Natsu also weakened him.

Now if i go by your logic that Des Gray was =Partial END then it would not have been a match because Gray would have one shotted him with his Des Magic.


But that didn't happen even though partial END was hit by Des Magic many times.


This itself proves that Partial END was much stronger than Gray.

So using the logic I just described above, then it would make sense for Tempesta to be one-shotted by Gray. But lets just say Gray decided to tank Tempesta's attack. Would he come out with minor injuries? I don't think so.

Now did DeS Gray get a boost in defense? Yes. That mainly came from the fact that Silver transferred his MP to Gray. But is this the result of having slayer advantage? Again, I don't think so.

Mard Geer is the same way. Gray struggled to compete with Mard Geer in virtually every stat including defense, speed, MP, etc. The only advantage he had was attack power. That is why all he needed was a distraction (Natsu) so that he could land a hit and defeat Mard Geer.

Now coming to your images.



No.1 image
I will not disagree there Gray and Natsu's punch was same and created a nuke.


No.2 image
Now here i will say even though the punch appear to be same but power was definetly on Partial END's side.
Gray's expression itself betrays that he is feeling the pressure.

I don't know about Gray's expression. You might be right, although I think part of it is just because Gray was angry.

Now the images you put under the Spoiler thread,"Gray's defense"


No.1 image

If you look at image closely where Natsu was thinking about Lucy Partial END did not attack Gray himself.He destroyed Gray's magic.Because in the next panel of Gray you see small small particles of ice flying in the air which was destroyed.
(though i may be wrong here)

No. 2 image
Here Natsu punched Gray but he didn't attack him with fire attacks.Now we can't judge a person by his punch only.Mard Geer fought Sting and Rogue in a physical fight for much long but he didn't take them down completely.So we can't say Mard Geer<Twin Dragons.And Natsu's performance was better than Mard in this respect.

Now the images you put under "Gray's durability"
No. 1 image
This is the tricky part for me.Natsu used a Fire Roar which hit those spiky ice structures which Gray created and destroyed it.It didn't directly hit Gray as far as i see.And Natsu launched him directly at ice wall but he couldn't reach Gray.

Yeah, now that you pointed it out, I think you're right about the first image. Natsu broke Gray's ice. He didn't actually come in contact with Gray himself.

For the second image, I can't tell whether Gray was hit. I assume he was because of the force pushing him back but then there is ice in the background so he might have used some sort of shield. I'll leave this up in the air for now.

For the roar though, I believe Gray was actually hit because we see Gray scream at the bottom panel of the first page. Also, the page after that, you can see smoke coming from Gray himself. But I can be wrong.

Now some bonus points.


We all know Natsu and Gray were potrayed as equals.And we saw Brandish's magic working on Natsu.So we can assume it will also work on Gray.But Natsu as END with partial power became so strong that her magic didn't work on him.In the CR Translation she says,"It is far stronger than me".And also Dimaria saying Partial END's power surpassing Chronos's and being able to move within the Age Seal.

Here is the problem that I have with the idea of slayer advantage. I honestly think people put too much emphasis on it. This "slayer advantage" was originally supposed to be more like a boost. I never saw it as something that would turn a fight 180 degrees.

We saw how Chelia did against Dimaria despite being a god slayer. It wasn't until she gained an immense power boost (Third Origin), that her slayer advantage helped her win the fight. Before that, she still had slayer advantage, but she was too weak to do anything.

So if Gray can compete against E.N.D, that means he is close to his power. If you want to say E.N.D is stronger than DeS Gray, I will let it slide. But I still think Gray is at least comparable. And by that, I mean Gray isn't too far behind.

---

Cant really scale Gray's durability to ENDs attack power because Demon Slaying magic absorbs demonic attacks

I don't think it does. If you're talking about Momento Mori, that was a one-time deal which happened due to the nature of the attack. Mard Geer's thorns which are still powered by curses still affected Gray.

 

[Seven777]

Fair enough. I don't think we'll 100% agree here, so I'll be giving my last counter-arguments on this to prevent the thread from going off-topic. You make good points though.



I somewhat agree and disagree with this. In my opinion, slayer advantages only come into play when we're talking about damage (attack power). It shouldn't really affect defense or anything else. That is more like resistance which is only related to elements (elemental resistance).

So for the dragon slayers during the GMG, I would agree that their attacks on the dragons were more effective than someone like Jura. However, if the dragons were to swipe Jura away with one hand, I would think that the dragon slayers would share the same fate. Actually, I can see Jura tanking it better (although some may disagree).



So using the logic I just described above, then it would make sense for Tempesta to be one-shotted by Gray. But lets just say Gray decided to tank Tempesta's attack. Would he come out with minor injuries? I don't think so.

Now did DeS Gray get a boost in defense? Yes. That mainly came from the fact that Silver transferred his MP to Gray. But is this the result of having slayer advantage? Again, I don't think so.

Mard Geer is the same way. Gray struggled to compete with Mard Geer in virtually every stat including defense, speed, MP, etc. The only advantage he had was attack power. That is why all he needed was a distraction (Natsu) so that he could land a hit and defeat Mard Geer.



I don't know about Gray's expression. You might be right, although I think part of it is just because Gray was angry.



Yeah, now that you pointed it out, I think you're right about the first image. Natsu broke Gray's ice. He didn't actually come in contact with Gray himself.

For the second image, I can't tell whether Gray was hit. I assume he was because of the force pushing him back but then there is ice in the background so he might have used some sort of shield. I'll leave this up in the air for now.

For the roar though, I believe Gray was actually hit because we see Gray scream at the bottom panel of the first page. Also, the page after that, you can see smoke coming from Gray himself. But I can be wrong.



Here is the problem that I have with the idea of slayer advantage. I honestly think people put too much emphasis on it. This "slayer advantage" was originally supposed to be more like a boost. I never saw it as something that would turn a fight 180 degrees.

We saw how Chelia did against Dimaria despite being a god slayer. It wasn't until she gained an immense power boost (Third Origin), that her slayer advantage helped her win the fight. Before that, she still had slayer advantage, but she was too weak to do anything.

So if Gray can compete against E.N.D, that means he is close to his power. If you want to say E.N.D is stronger than DeS Gray, I will let it slide. But I still think Gray is at least comparable. And by that, I mean Gray isn't too far behind.

---

I don't think it does. If you're talking about Momento Mori, that was a one-time deal which happened due to the nature of the attack. Mard Geer's thorns which are still powered by curses still affected Gray.

No, they didnt, in fact Mard Geer never even landed a hit on Gray other than when he was dragging his face through a stone wall. The only curse that has hit Gray is Memento Mori, and Gray's DeS blocked it.

The difference in power between END and Gray should be at least a big as the difference in power between Base Mard Geer and Tartaros Gray, if not bigger

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

No, they didnt, in fact Mard Geer never even landed a hit on Gray other than when he was dragging his face through a stone wall. The only curse that has hit Gray is Memento Mori, and Gray's DeS blocked it.

The difference in power between END and Gray should be at least a big as the difference in power between Base Mard Geer and Tartaros Gray, if not bigger

Okay, not thorns, but whatever this is.

Spoiler: Mard Geer's Dea Yggdrasil

Gray blocked this along with Natsu. None of its attack power was ever absorbed by Gray.

To be honest, it is quite absurd to say that demonic attacks can be partly absorbed by Gray. If that was the case, he could tank almost every attack from the Tartaros Demons. He wouldn't even need to freeze Tempesta's attack to defeat him. That would also make Gray a counter to Bloodman which is certainly not true.

Besides, dragon slayers and god slayers don't absorb the power from attacks by dragons or gods, so it wouldn't be different for a devil slayer. Like I said, Momento Mori is unique because it isn't a spell that deals damage. It just makes the target vanish.

I don't see how you can say the difference between E.N.D and Gray is the same as Base Mard Geer and Tartaros Gray because it clearly wasn't shown that way during their fight.

 

[Seven777]

Okay, not thorns, but whatever this is.

Spoiler: Mard Geer's Dea Yggdrasil

Gray blocked this along with Natsu. None of its attack power was ever absorbed by Gray.

To be honest, it is quite absurd to say that demonic attacks can be partly absorbed by Gray. If that was the case, he could tank almost every attack from the Tartaros Demons. He wouldn't even need to freeze Tempesta's attack to defeat him. That would also make Gray a counter to Bloodman which is certainly not true.

Besides, dragon slayers and god slayers don't absorb the power from attacks by dragons or gods, so it wouldn't be different for a devil slayer. Like I said, Momento Mori is unique because it isn't a spell that deals damage. It just makes the target vanish.

I don't see how you can say the difference between E.N.D and Gray is the same as Base Mard Geer and Tartaros Gray because it clearly wasn't shown that way during their fight.

Didnt get hit by that attack either, Natsu and Gray destroyed it.

I didnt say Gray was completely immune to damage, just that DeS magic provides good defense, Memento Mori still hurt him, its just that DeS magic allowed him to block it without dying. So yeah, if he can avoid an attack, he should.
Yeah, Gray probably could tank most of Tartaros Demon's attacks.

"Absorbed" was a poorly used word on my part, in actuality Mard Geer never said anything about "absorbtion" only that DeS magic blocked Memento Mori. So yeah, Dragon Slayers and God Slayers dont absorb either, they may have similar resistance, or they may not, Demon Slaying magic is unique with its tattoos and insanity and darkness and all that, or at least Gray's is.

Yes, and in the Gray vs Mard Geer fight, Gray was shown to totally outclass Mard Geer, he was quite literally low diffing him, the same guy who was casually soloing Natsu, Sting and Rogue, does that mean Gray was on that level? No, DeS advantage was pushing him to that level, making it seem like he was above Base Mard Geer, even though in reality he is far weaker, similarly DeS advantage is pushing current Gray to make it seem like he is on par with END, when in fact he is far below.

 

[Arjuna]

Fair enough. I don't think we'll 100% agree here, so I'll be giving my last counter-arguments on this to prevent the thread from going off-topic. You make good points though.



I somewhat agree and disagree with this. In my opinion, slayer advantages only come into play when we're talking about damage (attack power). It shouldn't really affect defense or anything else. That is more like resistance which is only related to elements (elemental resistance).

So for the dragon slayers during the GMG, I would agree that their attacks on the dragons were more effective than someone like Jura. However, if the dragons were to swipe Jura away with one hand, I would think that the dragon slayers would share the same fate. Actually, I can see Jura tanking it better (although some may disagree).



So using the logic I just described above, then it would make sense for Tempesta to be one-shotted by Gray. But lets just say Gray decided to tank Tempesta's attack. Would he come out with minor injuries? I don't think so.

Now did DeS Gray get a boost in defense? Yes. That mainly came from the fact that Silver transferred his MP to Gray. But is this the result of having slayer advantage? Again, I don't think so.

Mard Geer is the same way. Gray struggled to compete with Mard Geer in virtually every stat including defense, speed, MP, etc. The only advantage he had was attack power. That is why all he needed was a distraction (Natsu) so that he could land a hit and defeat Mard Geer.



I don't know about Gray's expression. You might be right, although I think part of it is just because Gray was angry.



Yeah, now that you pointed it out, I think you're right about the first image. Natsu broke Gray's ice. He didn't actually come in contact with Gray himself.

For the second image, I can't tell whether Gray was hit. I assume he was because of the force pushing him back but then there is ice in the background so he might have used some sort of shield. I'll leave this up in the air for now.

For the roar though, I believe Gray was actually hit because we see Gray scream at the bottom panel of the first page. Also, the page after that, you can see smoke coming from Gray himself. But I can be wrong.



Here is the problem that I have with the idea of slayer advantage. I honestly think people put too much emphasis on it. This "slayer advantage" was originally supposed to be more like a boost. I never saw it as something that would turn a fight 180 degrees.

We saw how Chelia did against Dimaria despite being a god slayer. It wasn't until she gained an immense power boost (Third Origin), that her slayer advantage helped her win the fight. Before that, she still had slayer advantage, but she was too weak to do anything.

So if Gray can compete against E.N.D, that means he is close to his power. If you want to say E.N.D is stronger than DeS Gray, I will let it slide. But I still think Gray is at least comparable. And by that, I mean Gray isn't too far behind.

---

I don't think it does. If you're talking about Momento Mori, that was a one-time deal which happened due to the nature of the attack. Mard Geer's thorns which are still powered by curses still affected Gray.

You make great points too even though we may not agree 100% though i agreed atleast 80%.



Now if you see the battle between Mard Geer and Gray Mard couldn't take a single Des Magic without damage.And you yourself mentioned the difference between Mard and Gray at that time.



Now if you see Natsu here he took many Des Magic with no damage or atleast you may say he was not overwhelmed like Mard.


And the difference between Sherria and Dimaria was too huge even for Slaying advantages to cover.So she needed TO.





And i agree with you in this stats
Physical strength
Gray=Natsu
Speed
Gray=Natsu
But overall,i think offense may not be as strong but one very important thing we should remember in the latest chapter we came to know that partial END's power is greater than Natsu's.But there again Natsu one shotted Dimaria in a violent way which had a huge psychological effect on Dimaria more than she being defeated by Sky sisters.It's complex here.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Didnt get hit by that attack either, Natsu and Gray destroyed it.

I didnt say Gray was completely immune to damage, just that DeS magic provides good defense, Memento Mori still hurt him, its just that DeS magic allowed him to block it without dying. So yeah, if he can avoid an attack, he should.
Yeah, Gray probably could tank most of Tartaros Demon's attacks.

"Absorbed" was a poorly used word on my part, in actuality Mard Geer never said anything about "absorbtion" only that DeS magic blocked Memento Mori. So yeah, Dragon Slayers and God Slayers dont absorb either, they may have similar resistance, or they may not, Demon Slaying magic is unique with its tattoos and insanity and darkness and all that, or at least Gray's is.

I disagree. DeS magic doesn't affect defense at all. There is no evidence to prove it. Just like how there is no evidence to prove that Gray had a durability advantage against E.N.D because he is a devil slayer.

Gray being able to tank most of the Tartaros Demon's attacks is pure speculation and actually contradicts what happened when Gray fought Tempesta.

The only resistance known in this manga so far is elemental resistance. Aside from that, there was never any indication that slayers were resistant to attacks from their respective type.

We'll just wait and see because this is going to get nowhere and I don't want to derail this thread. One of us will be wrong sooner or later.

Yes, and in the Gray vs Mard Geer fight, Gray was shown to totally outclass Mard Geer, he was quite literally low diffing him, the same guy who was casually soloing Natsu, Sting and Rogue, does that mean Gray was on that level? No, DeS advantage was pushing him to that level, making it seem like he was above Base Mard Geer, even though in reality he is far weaker, similarly DeS advantage is pushing current Gray to make it seem like he is on par with END, when in fact he is far below.

Actually, Gray wasn't outclassing Mard Geer in any way. He was in fact losing and would have lost had Natsu not been there. I don't want to sound like a broken record since I already stated this in my previous posts, so I'll keep this short.

Slayer advantage only affects the amount of damage that is inflicted on the opponent. It hasn't been shown to boost other stats like defense, speed, magic power, etc.

If you think DeS advantage bridged the gap between Base Mard Geer and Tartaros Gray, then answer this question:

• How come Base Chelia couldn't overwhelm Dimaria even though she had slayer advantage? According to you, slayer advantage boosts a character's overall power by a lot, right?

You don't have to post your answer since I told you that you can have the last word. So I will read your post, but I won't reply.

 

[Arjuna]

Gray Fullbuster takes it for me though it would be a tough fight. He edges out Gajeel in every category other than durability and possibly speed (which is hard to judge) and has consistently better portrayal.

As a reminder: Gray had just died when he fought Invel and then E.N.D. in succession and had not been healed. Invel believed that Gray was too injured to fight at all let alone at the level he did and his wounds were re-opening the more he pushed himself. Despite those injuries, he was able to stomp all over Invel and match E.N.D.

Gray has also consistently displayed high levels of endurance: he beat Lyon after getting run through; he cut open his side against Urtear and fought while bleeding out, then went on directly to the Hades fight; and fought Tempesta and Marde after Silver tore him to shreds. Gray has proven time and again that he can walk off damage and keep fighting.

Since the Tenrou Island arc, Gray has also appeared to have greater magical power and stamina as well being able to fight multiple battles in each arc even against very powerful foes.

Gray seems to have greater strength than Gajeel since he was able to match E.N.D.'s punching power (magical and none magical) with the force of his own blows and they created massive shockwaves when they did clash. Even before this he was able to treat Invel like a ragdoll and tear his divine armor to pieces with his strength. Even as far back as Avatar Gray was shown to be on equal footings physically with Natsu.

Gray also has far more versatility than Gajeel allowing him access to a wider range of traps and stratagems to use to gain the upper hand. While Gajeel surely has greater durability, lets not forget that Gray has his handy Ice Shields which are incredibly sturdy. Those have only been broken a few times and never by someone close to Gray in power.

Gray's freezing ability has progressed to the point that he can casually freeze Natsu's flames. Even when it comes to speed, it's Gray that has been complimented in this area with his ability to quickly cast. He even stopped E.N.D.'s charge cold.
No, this just means that E.N.D. is incredibly tanky.
We saw many times during the fight that Gray was basically equal to E.N.D in terms of speed and strength even while heavily injured and was able to withstand E.N.D.'s attacks.
We know it hit Gray because Gray screamed in pain even though he wasn't knocked down or back. By the way, those 'spiky ice structures' were columns of flames that Natsu caused to erupt from the ground that Gray.

Against Slaying advantages durabilty or tankiness doesn't matter.GMG Dragons tanked mountain level attacks but got "effected"(i am not using the word injuring) by DS Magic.Mard tanked city level attacks but got defeated by Town level Des Magic.
As Gray was injured Natsu too was injured by :-
i)Neinhart
ii)Tumour.Tumour severly weakened him.You may say he got powerup from END but the damage in his body that he suffered will remain from his tumour.

And those spiky structures are indeed ice.Natsu's flame doesn't look like that.And he made that underground explosion after this.

 

[Seven777]

I disagree. DeS magic doesn't affect defense at all. There is no evidence to prove it. Just like how there is no evidence to prove that Gray had a durability advantage against E.N.D because he is a devil slayer.

Gray being able to tank most of the Tartaros Demon's attacks is pure speculation and actually contradicts what happened when Gray fought Tempesta.

The only resistance known in this manga so far is elemental resistance. Aside from that, there was never any indication that slayers were resistant to attacks from their respective type.

We'll just wait and see because this is going to get nowhere and I don't want to derail this thread. One of us will be wrong sooner or later.



Actually, Gray wasn't outclassing Mard Geer in any way. He was in fact losing and would have lost had Natsu not been there. I don't want to sound like a broken record since I already stated this in my previous posts, so I'll keep this short.

Slayer advantage only affects the amount of damage that is inflicted on the opponent. It hasn't been shown to boost other stats like defense, speed, magic power, etc.

If you think DeS advantage bridged the gap between Base Mard Geer and Tartaros Gray, then answer this question:

• How come Base Chelia couldn't overwhelm Dimaria even though she had slayer advantage? According to you, slayer advantage boosts a character's overall power by a lot, right?

You don't have to post your answer since I told you that you can have the last word. So I will read your post, but I won't reply.

Doesnt contradict anything, Gray could freeze Tempesta's attacks, so he did, taking no damage is still better than taking a little damage.

There is evidence of extra defense, and Memento Mori is it, how could Gray block that attack if Demon Slaying magic wasnt the cause? And why did Mard Geer say Demon Slayer magic was the cause if it wasnt?

Youre thinking of Etherious Mard Geer who was beating Gray, i am talking about Base Mard Geer, and Gray was easily overpowering him solo

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

As you can see, Gray was absolutely annihilating Mard Geer, the same guy who was easily low diffing Sting, Rogue and Natsu all at the same time. DeS advantage puts Gray several tiers ahead of his ordinary power level, enough so that he could easily take on Mard Geer, someone who would normally be impossible for Gray to defeat, or even give a high diff fight to.

As for Chelia not beating Dimaria, it is as natsulucy said, the power gap was simply too wide for Slayer advantage to overcome it, similar to how Gray was unable to defeat Etherious Mard Geer alone, there was just too much of a gap in power, though i'd wager the gap is even bigger for Chelia

 

[Brandish μ]

Gray's durability is definitely higher when demonised. If he can absorb attacks, it'd be nuke-types. He shouldn't be able to absorb physical force from punches.

Still DF Gajeel will punch harder than END, and is faster/stronger physically. I'd back END for attack power with magic/curses though. And I would back Gray's spells to be stronger since I consider him to be ahead in MP.

As a reminder: Gray had just died when he fought Invel and then E.N.D. in succession and had not been healed. Invel believed that Gray was too injured to fight at all let alone at the level he did and his wounds were re-opening the more he pushed himself. Despite those injuries, he was able to stomp all over Invel and match E.N.D.

Gray has also consistently displayed high levels of endurance: he beat Lyon after getting run through; he cut open his side against Urtear and fought while bleeding out, then went on directly to the Hades fight; and fought Tempesta and Marde after Silver tore him to shreds. Gray has proven time and again that he can walk off damage and keep fighting.

Juvia's transfusion definitely 'healed' in a way. The injury itself is still there (you even see it break v END) but the has was stopped and his vitality was restored by whatever Juvia did (or he would have likely died). Invel's assumptions are made from what he saw (though I do consider his words to be a reasonable assessment). Even if he knew everything, his comments are still not iron clad. I see the transfusion as a quick restore, but the injuries remain. I think Gray used his own ice or something to block that wound. So he'd be able to fight close to full, but then as the wound re-opens he begins to lose health/blood (he would have to endure the pain, but that's par of the course in FT).

Endurance can often be skewed by rests/time between battles; when talking about a one-off battle. Essentially if someone is near defeated in one battle, then it only requires a small amount 'more' to defeat them. So this needs to be kept in mind when equating someones battle endurance, versus their overall ability to continue with a break. Essentially how much would it take to KO Gajeel/Gray in this battle is more pertinent than how much effort you can put up over a few battles without continuity.

(Note I think Gray has proved he is elite in endurance, and I do use those feats you mentioned as a measure of his endurance).

 

[Demon Hunter]

Gajeel imo.

I really like them both and its hard for me to decide but I think Gajeel takes this.

partial END is very overrated imo and Gray had slaying advantage against him.

base Gajeel > base Gray

ISDM Gajeel >= DeS

DF Gajeel > darkness Gray

 

[Biri Biri]

I disagree. DeS magic doesn't affect defense at all. There is no evidence to prove it. Just like how there is no evidence to prove that Gray had a durability advantage against E.N.D because he is a devil slayer.

Gray being able to tank most of the Tartaros Demon's attacks is pure speculation and actually contradicts what happened when Gray fought Tempesta.

The only resistance known in this manga so far is elemental resistance. Aside from that, there was never any indication that slayers were resistant to attacks from their respective type.

We'll just wait and see because this is going to get nowhere and I don't want to derail this thread. One of us will be wrong sooner or later.



Actually, Gray wasn't outclassing Mard Geer in any way. He was in fact losing and would have lost had Natsu not been there. I don't want to sound like a broken record since I already stated this in my previous posts, so I'll keep this short.

Slayer advantage only affects the amount of damage that is inflicted on the opponent. It hasn't been shown to boost other stats like defense, speed, magic power, etc.

If you think DeS advantage bridged the gap between Base Mard Geer and Tartaros Gray, then answer this question:

• How come Base Chelia couldn't overwhelm Dimaria even though she had slayer advantage? According to you, slayer advantage boosts a character's overall power by a lot, right?

You don't have to post your answer since I told you that you can have the last word. So I will read your post, but I won't reply.

Though it has not been explicitly stated, I think it would make sense for devil slayers to have greater resistance to curses since they operate the same way as magic. Devil slayers like Gray have displayed ruthless efficiency on Etherious with his attacks, and those attacks are cast by expelling magic from the ethernano in his body. It is not simply a style of combat. These ethernano that reside in his body should enable him to block and resist attacks that he identify as curses, demonic-based attacks. Works the same for dragon slayers and god slayers against dragons and gods, respectively.

If Natsu was to demonise even further, Gray's performance against END should correspond and parallel Natsu's demonification, growing in terms of efficiency too. Regardless, a fight between two mages is ultimately a contest between their magic powers' first and foremost. Which is why Base Chelia couldn't compete with Dimaria's god soul Chronos. Only by unlocking her third Origin, does it allowed Chelia to access her hidden magic power from the future and this, combined with her type advantage, allow her to defeat Dimaria.

The same reasoning is applicable to why Gray couldn't consume Invel's ice despite being a slayer. Before tapping into his potential magical reserves, Gray was not in the same ballpark as Invel. Once he did so, he turned the tides around and pummelled Invel. I think this clearly shows magic power between different combatants is more crucial to determine the victor, as compared to elemental or type advantages.

By the time they fought, Gray has to be around the same league as Natsu when it comes to magical reserves, otherwise the boost he received from the properties of his devil slaying magic is not significant enough for it to make a difference to begin with.

Endurance is going to play an important factor if Gray and Gajeel were to fight. And Gray has shown incredible endurance along the course of the series. Together with Erza and Natsu, these three should have roughly the same physical endurance. And Laxus have the greatest endurance in FT guild.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Though it has not been explicitly stated, I think it would make sense for devil slayers to have greater resistance to curses since they operate the same way as magic. Devil slayers like Gray have displayed ruthless efficiency on Etherious with his attacks, and those attacks are cast by expelling magic from the ethernano in his body. It is not simply a style of combat. These ethernano that reside in his body should enable him to block and resist attacks that he identify as curses, demonic-based attacks. Works the same for dragon slayers and god slayers against dragons and gods, respectively.

Well, like I said to others, I still disagree. The only form of resistance we've seen in this series is elemental resistance. To come up with the conclusion that devil slayers are resistant to demons is very far-fetched and shouldn't even be considered since there is no evidence to back it up.

The Ethernano in his body shouldn't protect him from curses because the properties of Ethernano should be the same for all mages. Slayer advantage doesn't change a slayer's body. It only affects their magic when coming in contact with their respective slayer type.

If Natsu was to demonise even further, Gray's performance against END should correspond and parallel Natsu's demonification, growing in terms of efficiency too. Regardless, a fight between two mages is ultimately a contest between their magic powers' first and foremost. Which is why Base Chelia couldn't compete with Dimaria's god soul Chronos. Only by unlocking her third Origin, does it allowed Chelia to access her hidden magic power from the future and this, combined with her type advantage, allow her to defeat Dimaria.

If Natsu was demonized even further, then yes, Gray's performance would be worse. But this has to do more with the fact that Natsu gets stronger and his stats increase when becoming more demon-like. I don't think this has anything to do with his ability to slay demons or increasing his chance of damaging Natsu. Once Natsu is a demon, he is already vulnerable to the effectiveness of devil slaying magic. I don't see why the degree of transformation should matter.

As for your point about Chelia, I agree.

The same reasoning is applicable to why Gray couldn't consume Invel's ice despite being a slayer. Before tapping into his potential magical reserves, Gray was not in the same ballpark as Invel. Once he did so, he turned the tides around and pummelled Invel. I think this clearly shows magic power between different combatants is more crucial to determine the victor, as compared to elemental or type advantages.

Well, to be honest, I'm not exactly sure why Gray couldn't eat Invel's ice so I won't speculate myself. However, I think you have a good point. I agree that magic power is more of a factor than advantages.

By the time they fought, Gray has to be around the same league as Natsu when it comes to magical reserves, otherwise the boost he received from the properties of his devil slaying magic is not significant enough for it to make a difference to begin with.

Exactly what I was trying to say. Good explanation.

Endurance is going to play an important factor if Gray and Gajeel were to fight. And Gray has shown incredible endurance along the course of the series. Together with Erza and Natsu, these three should have roughly the same physical endurance. And Laxus have the greatest endurance in FT guild.

Yeah, endurance is an important factor to consider. I would put Gray and Gajeel as equals here. But I think Gray has more MP than Gajeel.

 

[Talenel]

Cant really scale Gray's durability to ENDs attack power because Demon Slaying magic absorbs demonic attacks

He's only ever absorbed one curse. That curse wasn't a "physical" curse and it caused him to momentarily pass out from the effort. Does that mean he passively absorbs other types of curse powers? ...Possibly. He can't absorb the force behind E.N.D.s punches though.

Against Slaying advantages durabilty or tankiness doesn't matter.GMG Dragons tanked mountain level attacks but got "effected"(i am not using the word injuring) by DS Magic.Mard tanked city level attacks but got defeated by Town level Des Magic.
As Gray was injured Natsu too was injured by :-
i)Neinhart
ii)Tumour.Tumour severly weakened him.You may say he got powerup from END but the damage in his body that he suffered will remain from his tumour.

It clearly does? We see that the difference between Gray and E.N.D. was small based on their physical clashes. E.N.D. shaking off DES hits is likely due to his own (apparently awesome) durability, his incomplete transformation, and likely the fact that Gray never used any named moves and stuck with big wakes of ice.

And those spiky structures are indeed ice. Natsu's flame doesn't look like that. And he made that underground explosion after this.

Really irrelevant but no, we see Natsu shoot the flames up at Gray and then Gray wave his hand to freeze them. It's the same move Natsu used against Bluenote back in the day.

Juvia's transfusion definitely 'healed' in a way. The injury itself is still there (you even see it break v END) but the has was stopped and his vitality was restored by whatever Juvia did (or he would have likely died). Invel's assumptions are made from what he saw (though I do consider his words to be a reasonable assessment). Even if he knew everything, his comments are still not iron clad. I see the transfusion as a quick restore, but the injuries remain. I think Gray used his own ice or something to block that wound. So he'd be able to fight close to full, but then as the wound re-opens he begins to lose health/blood (he would have to endure the pain, but that's par of the course in FT).

By all appearances, the transfusion was only enough to get Gray back on his feet and seal the wound....well that or Gray's own ice. There's a reason the guy collapsed after losing his will to fight and seeing Juvia alive.
I'm sure Hiro wrote Invel to speak those words so that the readers knew Gray was nowhere close to having a full tank despite the transfusion in order to make Gray's later performances that much more impressive...and it absolutely did.

Endurance can often be skewed by rests/time between battles; when talking about a one-off battle. Essentially if someone is near defeated in one battle, then it only requires a small amount 'more' to defeat them. So this needs to be kept in mind when equating someones battle endurance, versus their overall ability to continue with a break. Essentially how much would it take to KO Gajeel/Gray in this battle is more pertinent than how much effort you can put up over a few battles without continuity.

Both that you describe are relevant as we compare the feats and portrayal of the two. No matter how you choose to break it down or categorize it, Gray appears to be superior in that field.

 

[Seven777]

He's only ever absorbed one curse. That curse wasn't a "physical" curse and it caused him to momentarily pass out from the effort. Does that mean he passively absorbs other types of curse powers? ...Possibly. He can't absorb the force behind E.N.D.s punches though.

Yes... but other than END he has only been hit by that one curse, and he not only survived it, but completely protected Natsu from it.

But i fully agree on the physical side of things, attacks like this

Spoiler

Were tanked just from Gray's normal durability.

However attacks like this

Spoiler

Imo are tanked by his DeS, also Gray freezing Natsu's fire is thanks to his DeS magic, the ability to freeze Demon's curses was one of the first and main new abilities Gray showcased upon receiving DeS

 

[Arjuna]

He's only ever absorbed one curse. That curse wasn't a "physical" curse and it caused him to momentarily pass out from the effort. Does that mean he passively absorbs other types of curse powers? ...Possibly. He can't absorb the force behind E.N.D.s punches though.
It clearly does? We see that the difference between Gray and E.N.D. was small based on their physical clashes. E.N.D. shaking off DES hits is likely due to his own (apparently awesome) durability, his incomplete transformation, and likely the fact that Gray never used any named moves and stuck with big wakes of ice.

Really irrelevant but no, we see Natsu shoot the flames up at Gray and then Gray wave his hand to freeze them. It's the same move Natsu used against Bluenote back in the day.
By all appearances, the transfusion was only enough to get Gray back on his feet and seal the wound....well that or Gray's own ice. There's a reason the guy collapsed after losing his will to fight and seeing Juvia alive.
I'm sure Hiro wrote Invel to speak those words so that the readers knew Gray was nowhere close to having a full tank despite the transfusion in order to make Gray's later performances that much more impressive...and it absolutely did.
Both that you describe are relevant as we compare the feats and portrayal of the two. No matter how you choose to break it down or categorize it, Gray appears to be superior in that field.

As i said earlier they seem to be similar to in physical stats.



Do you really think Mard had literally zero durability that he was defeated by one Ice Zeroth Bow's destruction.He literally tanked city level attacks but was defeated by that attack which max to max is Town level.


In GMG Dragons shrugged of attacks from a strong mage like Jura but got injured from attacks from mages like Sting or injured Gajeel.



Mard with his strong curse power of 6000 or with monstrous durability couldn't survive 3 Des attacks in his Base state and one attack in his Etherious state.As Mard was atleast 2 times stronger than Tartaros Gray but still got defeated,so we can imagine how much stronger a Demon must be from his Slayer if he is to go as equal against him.



Durability will only matter if it is against non Slaying Magic but against Slaying Magic it becomes futile.




And as you know Natsu and Gray were potrayed as equals.In chapter 501 Brandish's magic working on Natsu.So we can assume it will also work on Gray.


But in last chapter we see Brandish saying that he became so much stronger than her magic is not working on the tumour.




And next the thing you are calling fire is not fire actually.The underground attack you mentioned was made much later.

 

[Brandish μ]

I'm sure Hiro wrote Invel to speak those words so that the readers knew Gray was nowhere close to having a full tank despite the transfusion in order to make Gray's later performances that much more impressive...and it absolutely did.

Gray would've been on a time limit due to the injury, but his power level/performance was close to or at full. I mean the guy received a power up.

If Gray wakes up after being healed and performs at a higher level I'll believe it. I see it very similar to Laxus' circumstances.

 

[TakeoverSatanSoul]

I n t e r e s t i n g.

I want to say Gray but I just don't know how he'll deal with ISDM.

And Imagine if he had the Carbon from Torafuzar, then it’d be STEEL which has already been shown to be stronger than Iron, Steel Shadow Dual Dragon Mode would be beast and probably pull a win for Gajeel, but still I voted Tie because of the E.N.D Fight

 

[Arjuna]

And Imagine if he had the Carbon from Torafuzar, then it’d be STEEL which has already been shown to be stronger than Iron, Steel Shadow Dual Dragon Mode would be beast and probably pull a win for Gajeel, but still I voted Tie because of the E.N.D Fight

Second elements have vanished did both Natsu and Gajeel.It doesn't exist anymore.

 

[Axiomus]

Second elements have vanished did both Natsu and Gajeel.It doesn't exist anymore.

Natsu doesn't use lightning anymore, but Gajeel was using his shadows in the Bloodman fight. No reason to assume ISD has disappeared for Gajeel. Even for Natsu, I doubt he has lost the ability to use lightning. It's just obsolete because FDK is better.