Celestial Spirit King is beyond Marde Geer level even in Tartarous. Using the excuse that Marde Geer was able to dodge some attacks are stupid because by that same logic Irene would just be Erza and Wendy Level. Unless you are trying to imply Wendy>CSK.
By Combat Feats the CSK trumps everyone in this group and by magical feats Irene trumps everyone.
Lucy only needs to use her magical power to keep the gates open. Being able to keep 3 gates open at the same time means you can keep the CSK's gate open at the same time. It doesn't mean you are as powerful as the CSK. We know that Aquarius is stronger than Lucy herself. Aquarius' is Lucy's strongest spirit, and the version of Urano Metria her star dress allows Lucy to cast is much stronger than the version she can cast by herself and Gemini.
Again, I don't think Aquarius is incapable of opening her own gate. It's simply much less taxing for the someone else to do so. If she is incapable of opening her own gate, it's probably not out of a lack of magical power. I don't recall Loke ever saying that he was the only spirit that can open his own gate. We've seen Horologium open his own gate as well. Virgo too opened her gate to change Lucy's clothes when Lucy ran out of magical power after fighting Angel. So doesn't this mean that spirits weaker than Loke can open their own gates as well?
The Spirits power is correlated with the summoners magic. Not only has it been flat out stated in the manga the stronger the Celestial Wizard becomes the stronger than Spirit becomes it has been shown.
I don't even understand why this is even a debate.
Also Virgo never opened her own gate using her own magic. She opened her gate by herself like Loke but she was still using Lucy's magical power like Loke. Passing through the gate on thier own doesn't mean they are using their own magical power. Look at the Fighting Festival arc when Lucy fought Bicklow. Loke opened his own gate but it was clear as day that he was still using Lucy's magical power as it was stated.
Celestial Spirit King is beyond Marde Geer level even in Tartarous. Using the excuse that Marde Geer was able to dodge some attacks are stupid because by that same logic Irene would just be Erza and Wendy Level. Unless you are trying to imply Wendy>CSK.
By Combat Feats the CSK trumps everyone in this group and by magical feats Irene trumps everyone.
AoE is the only thing that puts CSK above Mard. The CSK has AoE feats comparable to the war god Ikusatsunagi, and Ikusatsunagi is not considered Spriggan tier. This is not really similar to Irene. The reason Irene is above Erza and Wendy is not because Irene has bigger attacks. In fact, her largest attack isn't even stronger than Erza's slash. Irene is stronger than Erza and Wendy because she can break all of their bones with a claw swipe, whom neither really can dodge. And because short of her committing suicide, Erza and Wendy would have actually lost the fight.
The Spirits power is correlated with the summoners magic. Not only has it been flat out stated in the manga the stronger the Celestial Wizard becomes the stronger than Spirit becomes it has been shown.
I don't even understand why this is even a debate.
Also Virgo never opened her own gate using her own magic. She opened her gate by herself like Loke but she was still using Lucy's magical power like Loke. Passing through the gate on thier own doesn't mean they are using their own magical power. Look at the Fighting Festival arc when Lucy fought Bicklow. Loke opened his own gate but it was clear as day that he was still using Lucy's magical power as it was stated.
Like I said, I accept the fact that the stronger the mage becomes the stronger the spirit becomes. This doesn't mean that the spirits power multiplies in proportion to the mage's. That has never been stated once. It still makes more sense that the mage makes the spirit stronger by adding to the the spirit's power. The panel you show doesn't disprove it. It just shows the Spirit King getting slower because Lucy's power ran out. This is probably because he had to start using his own power to keep his gate open, which would tire him out. If his power was 100% tied to Lucy, then he would have simply disappeared. He also wouldn't be able to continue fighting Mard and use Galaxia Blade. The mere fact that the Spirit King can remain on earthland after Lucy exhausted her magical supply proves that he has his own reserve of magical power.
Virgo opened the gate with her own power. Lucy herself said that Virgo passed through her gate with her own magic power. In fact, Virgo must have passed through the gate with her own power because Lucy couldn't summon any spirits to fight Zero later on in the Oracion Seis arc, or to break the lacryma in Nirvana's leg. Her power was at zero ever since she finished the fight with Angel.
Lucy only needs to use her magical power to keep the gates open. Being able to keep 3 gates open at the same time means you can keep the CSK's gate open at the same time. It doesn't mean you are as powerful as the CSK. We know that Aquarius is stronger than Lucy herself. Aquarius' is Lucy's strongest spirit, and the version of Urano Metria her star dress allows Lucy to cast is much stronger than the version she can cast by herself and Gemini.
Again, I don't think Aquarius is incapable of opening her own gate. It's simply much less taxing for the someone else to do so. If she is incapable of opening her own gate, it's probably not out of a lack of magical power. I don't recall Loke ever saying that he was the only spirit that can open his own gate. We've seen Horologium open his own gate as well. Virgo too opened her gate to change Lucy's clothes when Lucy ran out of magical power after fighting Angel. So doesn't this mean that spirits weaker than Loke can open their own gates as well?
Not just that, she also had to use it to strengthen her spirits, remember after she used up her Magic to defeat Jackal and Mard Geer noted how sluggish the CSK movements had gotten so suddenly which he noted how Lucy has reached her limit? And the Aquarius Star Dress version of Urano Metria is more powerful than the one she did with Gemini is due to Star Dress increasing Lucy's magical power plus also back in the GMG, Lucy did used up a quite a bit much of her magic during her fight with Flare which what power she had left and combined with Gemini wasn't enough to be powerful much.
Here's where Loke did said that: http://m.mangatown.com/manga/fairy_tail/v14/c114/20.html which was back at the Fighting Fesitival Arc, but in the Oracion Seis Virgo suddenly can do it. A filler scene stated was due to her magical power being greater. And like I said, I find it confusing back with her fight with Bickslow Loke asked her to close his gate and she collapsed which was stated from using 2 Zodiacs which he and Sagittarius were the only ones used.
Not just that, she also had to use it to strengthen her spirits, remember after she used up her Magic to defeat Jackal and Mard Geer noted how sluggish the CSK movements had gotten so suddenly which he noted how Lucy has reached her limit? And the Aquarius Star Dress version of Urano Metria is more powerful than the one she did with Gemini is due to Star Dress increasing Lucy's magical power plus also back in the GMG, Lucy did used up a quite a bit much of her magic during her fight with Flare which what power she had left and combined with Gemini wasn't enough to be powerful much.
Here's where Loke did said that: http://m.mangatown.com/manga/fairy_tail/v14/c114/20.html which was back at the Fighting Fesitival Arc, but in the Oracion Seis Virgo suddenly can do it. A filler scene stated was due to her magical power being greater. And like I said, I find it confusing back with her fight with Bickslow Loke asked her to close his gate and she collapsed which was stated from using 2 Zodiacs which he and Sagittarius were the only ones used.
Again, I attribute the fact that the CSK got sluggish to the fact that Lucy was no longer keeping his gate open. CSK had to use his own magic power to open his gate, that was putting a drain on his stamina. Either way, the CSK must have had his own supply of magical power. If it was all Lucy, he would have been pulled back to the spirit realm when Lucy ran out. Star dress increases Lucy's power by giving her Aquarius' magic power. The point being Lucy is at her strongest using her Aquarius star dress, and the Aquarius star dress' ability is to grant her Aquarius' magic power.
I just showed a panel of Virgo using her own power to open the gates. Loke may have thought he was the only spirit that can do it, but I guess he's been proven wrong. I'm not sure what filler scene we're talking about Horologium or Virgo? This is what I can find.
I don't understand y people think csk is that powerful no1 have counter my argument of why he is above mard geer lvl. They have fought in the past and it seems that he hasn't been above mard geer lvl@Nemispelled what u mean she can't blitz Wendy? She biltz erza. Who is above her . Irene Marvell even said that she was stronger than wendy belersion becuase of her body hence why he was able to get her body back. Wendy isn't outclass her. Sorry Wendy doesn't not proceed to the next round.
Even if Lucy were to summon the CSK at just Mard Geer's level (something I just don't find any argument made thus far to be convincing), I'm of the belief that Mard Geer > Sting (WSDM) by a considerable margin.
Lucy can summon the CSK (who is probably stronger than Irene but at worst is Mard Geer level) and have him wreak havoc with the spell spammers.
Lol Lucy and Mira seems out of place here. This stage is like a DS battle royale. Should've just placed two more DS.
Anyway, on a serious note, winners are obviously Irene, Natsu, God Serena, and Sting. But I'm sure these four would win either way, so I just chose Wendy as the 4th winner because I like her.
Again, I attribute the fact that the CSK got sluggish to the fact that Lucy was no longer keeping his gate open. CSK had to use his own magic power to open his gate, that was putting a drain on his stamina. Either way, the CSK must have had his own supply of magical power. If it was all Lucy, he would have been pulled back to the spirit realm when Lucy ran out. Star dress increases Lucy's power by giving her Aquarius' magic power. The point being Lucy is at her strongest using her Aquarius star dress, and the Aquarius star dress' ability is to grant her Aquarius' magic power.
I just showed a panel of Virgo using her own power to open the gates. Loke may have thought he was the only spirit that can do it, but I guess he's been proven wrong. I'm not sure what filler scene we're talking about Horologium or Virgo? This is what I can find.
Being sluggish should mean he was weakening, don't really make sense to say it got something to do with Lucy not having the power to keep his gate open which shouldn't affect his movement. Lucy may haven't really used up all her power, probably still had little left. Also Loke shown he can have his gate open with his power and continue to fight, if the CSK was using his power to do it (which haven't been hinted he did) then he should still be able to do the same for Mard Geer instead of going back to the CSW. Especially considering he's the strongest celestial spirit which he shouldn't be drained that much which would mean Loke got more power who can have his open for a very long time and that is pretty far fetched. Not to mention don't think it's possible for Spirits to use their power to have their gates open while already had been summoned.
It's not that he's been proven wrong, it just mean they just couldn't do it at the time. Plus it's only natural for the spirits to know what each of them are capable of doing which they have shown to know what they can do. And as for the filler, Horologium said that in episode 67 (I think) when he went and saved Lucy and Happy after help destroying Nirvana in the Oracion Seis Arc.
Even if Lucy were to summon the CSK at just Mard Geer's level (something I just don't find any argument made thus far to be convincing), I'm of the belief that Mard Geer > Sting (WSDM) by a considerable margin.
Lucy can summon the CSK (who is probably stronger than Irene but at worst is Mard Geer level) and have him wreak havoc with the spell spammers.
Being sluggish should mean he was weakening, don't really make sense to say it got something to do with Lucy not having the power to keep his gate open which shouldn't affect his movement. Lucy may haven't really used up all her power, probably still had little left. Also Loke shown he can have his gate open with his power and continue to fight, if the CSK was using his power to do it (which haven't been hinted he did) then he should still be able to do the same for Mard Geer instead of going back to the CSW. Especially considering he's the strongest celestial spirit which he shouldn't be drained that much which would mean Loke got more power who can have his open for a very long time and that is pretty far fetched. Not to mention don't think it's possible for Spirits to use their power to have their gates open while already had been summoned.
It's not that he's been proven wrong, it just mean they just couldn't do it at the time. Plus it's only natural for the spirits to know what each of them are capable of doing which they have shown to know what they can do. And as for the filler, Horologium said that in episode 67 (I think) when he went and saved Lucy and Happy after help destroying Nirvana in the Oracion Seis Arc.
It takes magic power to keep the gates open. If Lucy isn't keeping the gates open, then the Spirit King has to use his own MP to open it. The drain on his MP is tiring him out, and causing his movements to become slower. Lucy collapsed from exhaustion. The attack was also described as an all out attack by the narration. I consider both as indications that Lucy went all out with Urano Metria.
The Spirit King probably could have continued fighting Mard Geer, but it wouldn't have gone anywhere. Mard already held his own when Lucy was keeping the gate open, so even if Mard just kept dodging he probably could have simply outlasted the CSK's time limit The Spirit King can open his own gate just fine. That's what he did when he first visited Lucy during the Loke arc. He simply can't keep it open and still fight Mard effectively at the same time. It's one thing to stand there and talk. It's another thing to engage in a battle with Mard Geer. The Spirit probably wasn't even that slow. It's simply hard to tag Mard as is.
I'm going to take your word for it. Still, you say it's a filler scene. We've already established that Lucy's spirits can open a gate with their own magical power even when Lucy's magical power is at zero. This is something that the manga says, so... Also if we're talking about the fillers, then the Eclipse filler arc had all the spirits summoning themselves to earthland, whilst breaking the contract from Lucy. I'm pretty sure that their actions weren't all done by Lucy's MP.
Natsu. No need for an explanation. Same with Irene and Serena, who could easily beat Natsu. Then it was a tie between Cobra and Mirajane. Dunno who'd come in first place between Irene and Serena, but Natsu would be third place regardless, if it came to a fight between all of them.
Lucy should be second last, while Wendy is the weakst of the group.
@Nemispelled what u mean she can't blitz Wendy? She biltz erza. Who is above her . Irene Marvell is said her she was stronger than wendy belersion becuase of her body hence why he was able to get her body back. Wendy isn't outclass her. Sorry Wendy doesn't not proceed to the next round.
Irene blitz Erza because Erza isn't a dragon slayer.
With Wendy, it's different. Her magic directly counters Irene, so it would be a poor move for Irene to activate her dragon form in front of Wendy.
Irene actually admitted that Wendy's body was a downgrade.
And when Wendy took possession of Irene's body, her magical power became a lot stronger.
While Irene may have naturally more power than Wendy, Wendy has better skill than Irene.
That's why Base Wendy was beating Human Irene in the manga.
If you factor in Wendy's DF (which she didn't use against Irene in the manga) and you take into account the super-effectiveness of Wendy's DS magic against Irene's Dragon form, then Wendy would be the clear winner.
I respect your opinion, but I have to disagree.
The way I see it, Wendy outclasses Irene in both her human and dragon form.
In fact, all the Dragon Slayers in this group would outclass Irene's dragon form.
Irene has the real power of a dragon, she almost the same mage as Acno.
Wendy and other DS hasn't real power of a dragon, they are just humans.
No one human DS can beat a real dragon, and you say that Wendy can? Why? One hand-strike from Irene dragon will smash little girl in blood puddle.
There is nothing comparable for Irene power, even August. She blitz all of them with magic or hands.
And I very surprised that you down our mistress Mira
How anyone here (besides Irene) can beat Mira?
Irene has the real power of a dragon, she almost the same mage as Acno.
Wendy and other DS hasn't real power of a dragon, they are just humans.
No one human DS can beat a real dragon, and you say that Wendy can? Why? One hand-strike from Irene dragon will smash little girl in blood puddle.
There is nothing comparable for Irene power, even August. She blitz all of them with magic or hands.
And I very surprised that you down our mistress Mira
How anyone here (besides Irene) can beat Mira?
Heh, well I expected Irene to go for Mira and Lucy first, since neither are dragon slayers. That's why I ruled out Mira, otherwise, I would have voted her to move on to the next round.
As for Irene, I don't even put her on the same level as Acnologia. She is several tiers below.
Wendy and other DS may not have the power of a real dragon, but their dragon slaying magic is very effective on Irene's dragon form.
That was shown when Erza with a simple DS-enchanted sword was able to revert Irene.
Wendy's real dragon slaying magic should be even more effective. Same goes with the other dragon slayers.
In terms of Irene's human form.. well, Wendy already showed several impressive feats in that battle. If I add in DF, I think Wendy would win.
But why?? Wendy never able to use real dragon power, she said Grandina blocks her seed growth. And even if she does, how Wendy or other DS can be more stronger than strongest wizadr and DS which lives 400 years and get realy great magic power that allow her to enchant whole country and 1 million soldier (each of them has power to beat Erza) in the same time??
Irene in million times stronger than Wendy. How she can win?
If you think that her DS magic allow her to beat the strongest DS (besides Acno of course), so why that strongest DS can't beat Wendy for the same reason? They have same magic, but Irene much stronger, I don't see any chance for Wendy.
And:
Erza (who beat Irene) used Azir's weakness against him and anyway he beat her.
What Wendy do is just revert Ezra power become dragon slayer magic not boost up so what's Ezra use to slash Irene out of dragon form is her nagama power is reverted to be dragon's element by Wendy and in manga said many times that she is third strongest individual
I don't understand y people think csk is that powerful no1 have counter my argument of why he is above mard geer lvl. They have fought in the past and it seems that he hasn't been above mard geer lvl@Nemispelled what u mean she can't blitz Wendy? She biltz erza. Who is above her . Irene Marvell is said her she was stronger than wendy belersion becuase of her body hence why he was able to get her body back. Wendy isn't outclass her. Sorry Wendy doesn't not proceed to the next round.
Gemini was capable of summoning themselves and copying Lucy during the Oracion Seis arc. Current Lucy has had second origin and a year of training, so she's probably stronger than Gemini herself by a fair margin. In any case, it was never explicitly stated that Gemini can't copy someone slightly stronger than Lucy. It was simply stated that it had to be close to Lucy's level of magic, so it wouldn't be able to copy Erza or Laxus for example. It's actually conceivable for her to copy something stronger than her by 20%, and that technically qualifies as "close". Also, remember that Lucy has to use MP to keep the gates open, and this is probably where the majority of her magic power goes into.
Lucy doesn't support their existence in the sense that she doesn't create them. She supports them being able to stay in the human world by keeping the gates open. She doesn't support the magic power her spirits have either. We've seen Lucy completely exhausted, yet the CSK can still cast Galaxia Blade. Like I said, the spirits have their own magical power. Some of them can even summon themselves and use magic. Loke was able to do so without taxing Lucy's magical power in Tenrou. This is also the reason why Lucy's star dress even gives her any boost in power. Every time Lucy uses a star dress, she is borrowing magic power from her spirits. If the spirits didn't have any power on their own, Lucy wouldn't be able to borrow their powers. When Makarov mentioned that Lucy's MP felt completely different than from a year before, was because Lucy had a star dress on. We don't actually know how much Lucy's MP improved by herself. It may have been significant, but it probably didn't make her jump several tiers.
Natsu's MP doesn't appear out of nowhere for his Dragon Force either. DF is Natsu going all out, and the strength comes from the fact that Natsu is transforming parts of his body into that of a dragon. You can even argue that Natsu is using PoF which is turning his emotions into magical power. Even converting emotions to MP would still mean there's a source for his power. This is different than CSK randomly gaining power from nowhere because of a math trick.
This is not exactly true. Gemini summoned themselves during Oracion Seis to help Lucy destroy one of the legs of Nirvanna. At this point Angel was obviously defeated so it's unlikely she had any magic power left at all. Depending on the time the rune knights arrested her, the contract with Angel may have already been void.
20% was just an example, Lucy could dedicate %30, %40, %60 or %80 of her power to it, which means she could copy someone significantly stronger than herself, if only for a few moments.
No one is saying she creates her spirits, however she does support their magic power, hence why different spirits consume different amounts
Lucy supports their usage of magic power. Galaxia Blade being used after Lucy tired herself out is logically the CSK pulling a Loke.
No, we do know Lucy has had a massive increase in magic power, because unlike against Jackal she is doing it purely with her own magic. She is using Celestial power to achieve the form, but its not as though her spirits are actually granting her their MP, as shown when she uses Aquarius' Dress without her being present or even owning her Key, the magic power is entirely Lucy's.
DF is Natsu powering up, not going all out. Going all out would just be Natsu expending all his MP, going DF actually boosts his strength beyond what that MP is normally capable of accomplishing.
The strength Natsu gets is from transforming into a dragon, so what? Lucy is substituting a regular spirit for the 50 foot tall king of their race.
If Dragon Force is PoF, then Celestial Spirirt Magic if PoF X100. since the power of love canonically increases the power of her spirits. In fact the power of love is even a requirement for summoning the CSK.
Anyway, my point is that Dragon Force scales with the user's strength, the stronger the Dragon Slayer, the greater the boost DF gives them. CSK should not be any different.
I don't understand y people think csk is that powerful no1 have counter my argument of why he is above mard geer lvl. They have fought in the past and it seems that he hasn't been above mard geer lvl@Nemispelled what u mean she can't blitz Wendy? She biltz erza. Who is above her . Irene Marvell is said her she was stronger than wendy belersion becuase of her body hence why he was able to get her body back. Wendy isn't outclass her. Sorry Wendy doesn't not proceed to the next round.
No one knows who summoned CSK before or how hard they fought each other. For all you know Mard Geer ran with his tail between his legs, maybe he went Etherious that time, or maybe they fought the same way as when Lucy summoned him. Doesnt matter, because we also dont know how powerful the Celestial Spirit mage who summoned him earlier was. Them being stronger than Lucy is highly unlikely because a wizard actually capable of summoning the CSK is already extremely rare. In fact the CSK may not have even been summoned by a wizard last time, he may have come on his own power for his own reasons. And again, doesnt matter because we know for a fact that spirits get stronger as their summoner does.
It takes magic power to keep the gates open. If Lucy isn't keeping the gates open, then the Spirit King has to use his own MP to open it. The drain on his MP is tiring him out, and causing his movements to become slower. Lucy collapsed from exhaustion. The attack was also described as an all out attack by the narration. I consider both as indications that Lucy went all out with Urano Metria.
The Spirit King probably could have continued fighting Mard Geer, but it wouldn't have gone anywhere. Mard already held his own when Lucy was keeping the gate open, so even if Mard just kept dodging he probably could have simply outlasted the CSK's time limit The Spirit King can open his own gate just fine. That's what he did when he first visited Lucy during the Loke arc. He simply can't keep it open and still fight Mard effectively at the same time. It's one thing to stand there and talk. It's another thing to engage in a battle with Mard Geer. The Spirit probably wasn't even that slow. It's simply hard to tag Mard as is.
I'm going to take your word for it. Still, you say it's a filler scene. We've already established that Lucy's spirits can open a gate with their own magical power even when Lucy's magical power is at zero. This is something that the manga says, so... Also if we're talking about the fillers, then the Eclipse filler arc had all the spirits summoning themselves to earthland, whilst breaking the contract from Lucy. I'm pretty sure that their actions weren't all done by Lucy's MP.
The Spirit King hasn't noted or even hinted that's what he had to do though, he just said that Lucy had reached her limit and as you are aware, Celestial Spirits are being powered by their summoners once summoned. Also your logic shows how that makes Loke stronger than the CSK since he can keep his gate open and fight at the same time without being tired out that quick. That's not the case here, Mard Geer noted that's what the CSK's movements suddenly came to be just when the CSK was about to attack him. Makes more sense to say it's because he was losing the power up Lucy was giving him since it happened in that moment.
As I was saying before, back in the Fighting Festival Arc, none of her spirits had ever opened their own gates before except Loke as stated until after her fight with Angel. Lucy just had gotten them stronger going by the fact they do as she does which allowed them to be strong enough to now use their own power to open their gates. What I'm talking about happened in a canon Arc which Mashima probably had gotten them to include since he even said so himself that there's some things he just didn't had time to put in the manga and he does help out sometimes. The Eclipse Arc is a whole different story that if you ask me, the spirits look even stronger before their metamorphosis from the Eclipse Gate. Like did you see how badass they made Virgo?
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