Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

That is exactly what people were saying, he was not ready at that time. He still ain't ready. The fact that he needs training/power-ups simply proves that.

It doesn't prove he's not ready.

It proves Oda didn't want her defeated then.

What is it, Big Mom is stronger than Kaido? Is that why Kaido is going to be defeated?

No. If Oda wanted Big Mom defeated then, you can't tell me that:

• Oda couldn't have made WCI 2 weeks if he wanted to.
• Can't tell me he couldn't have put some prisoner in there to teach Luffy this new technique.
• Can't tell me that Luffy couldn't have Awakened then.

If Oda wanted Luffy to defeat Big Mom in WCI, he could have done it. To say otherwise is to be in denial.

It's the exact same case here. Oda is making sure that Luffy can defeat Kaido in what, less than 10 days? When the strongest opponent he defeated just a week ago was Katakuri?

This is not a year gap between WCI and Wano, this is less than a month between. It's been about 8 days between WCI and the current period in Wano.

The fact that Oda can make Luffy as strong as a commander to being at the level of the Emperor in less than 9 days is proof he's ready. It's simply a narrative choice.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 23, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 23, 2019 ---

Please, dont go full retard on me now just to be able to keep arguing something that is, you must know it by now, on glass legs.
Why are people driving their hands forward if they are shooting... LOL. Why is Goku doing the same when shooting Kamehameha?

Retard? There's clearly something wrong with you if you have to call people retarded simply for having a different opinion.

And mind you, Goku's Kameha is from distance, not from within an inch of someone's face.

Your reasoning is simply atrocious.

Claiming that Zoro could perform Haki before the time-skip which he took 2 years to learn the basics.

 

[Fox666]

Am I missing something about this discussion? Luffy was defeated in one hit by one of the Yonko, but would have defeated another one?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Zoro was mastering the Hardening part, not the release part. Hardening is advanced way of using CoA as well.

You're painfully ill-informed.

There's no "Hardening" part of Armament Haki.

Armament Haki is ALWAYS Hard. It's a passive effect.

Once anything is imbued with Haki, it becomes hard by default. There's no "I'm go use the Haki for hardening, and then the one for fighting Logias: only 1 Armament Haki with 2 passive effects bud.

So, the idea that he was manipulating Haki... how can you manipulate Haki without being able to imbue a thing with Haki first and foremost?

Your theory is truly a terrible one given the lack of consistency.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 23, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 23, 2019 ---

I have told you that you give too much credit to translators and they are doing a lousy job

Sorry, do you speak Japanese that you're actually able to claim these translators wrong?

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 23, 2019 ---

Yes. Is it so hard to believe that a swordsman was releasing Haki through the sword before he was able to do hardening? Zoro was mastering the Hardening part, not the release part.

This is the epitome of nonsense right here.

Haki is ALWAYS hard.

There's no specific Armament for Hardening, Armament simply has 2 passive effects and that's being Hard and Touching Logias.

So, you're clearly lying here and making up false claims.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 23, 2019 ---

You were never right, stop lying. You kept insisting Big Mom and Luffy will fight, and Luffy will beat Big Mom in an actual fight, and you were wrong.

I was right, you're the one lying and in denial.

I said Big Mom had to be defeated.

You're simply in denial because the best you could do was claim that the BMP won't be defeated because they're a Yonko crew which is rather short-sighted of you and shows how much depth your insight into One Piece lacks. Your insight doesn't seem to have any context whatsoever, it's very superficial and relatively baseless.

It proves you're not that great at understanding the story fundamentally and what's necessary for the plot to advance.

Your reason was a poor one.

My reason was why the story developed as it did.

Like I said, Big Mom had to be defeated, Oda just pulled it off in another way.

You were wrong for being short-sighted, and I was absolutely correct for my narrative being proven true.

Without her defeat, there's no way:

• They'd have been the centre of attention at the Reverie.
• Their reputations won't have gone up.
• Their Jolly Roger wouldn't have had as much power as it does now.

You can be in denial all you want.

You yourself admitted you were wrong, and that Luffy was too weak to take on Big Mom. You can twist or change what I or manga say, but you can't change what the manga showed us: Luffy's victory was in symbolism and that he'd have lost to Big Mom had he fought, just as he lost to Kaidou.

Wrong.

I did admit Big Mom wouldn't be defeated.

The reality is not that she couldn't be defeated, the reality is Oda didn't want her defeated. That's the thing you're unable to grasp.

If Big Mom can't be defeated, then Kaido too can't be defeated. It's not like Kaido is 10x weaker than Big Mom.

The fact Kaido is going to be defeated in just 3 weeks after WCI proves that it has nothing to do with Luffy not being strong enough, it's to do with Oda not choosing to allow Luffy to be that strong.

Luffy is going to defeat a character that 1-shotted him in 2 weeks. That's proof that Oda can make Luffy as strong as he wants whenever he wants depending on the direction he wants to take narratively.

He's given hype for infiltrating Big Mom's territory and making it out alive while causing chaos and ruining her plans, and if Morgans had mentioned how Luffy and even Sanji were unable to do anything to Big Mom, then more characters would know he's nowhere even a Yonkou level.

Wrong again.

Not like Luffy got defeated.

He went into her territory and wrecked hell.

That is a victory.

Your point here is a useless one about Luffy not being competitive against Big Mom. Fact is this arc is proving that it has nothing to do with Luffy not being strong, it's to do with Oda not allowing her to be defeated for the sake of the story.

If the strongest creature is going to be defeated in just 14 days just because he learnt a few new tricks, there's no reason why these tricks couldn't have been presented in WCI if he wanted Big Mom defeated.

Not sure if you have memory of WCI, but Big Mom was screaming Cake the entire time because Oda was looking to find a way of not having Luffy and Big Mom engage, otherwise, he'd have had to defeat her there.

And I said may beat Kaidou as in, possibly by himself or possibly with others, one of the two.

Wrong, like I said, you read the story with very poor insight.

It doesn't matter how many people jump in to take on Kaido or Big Mom, end of the day, Luffy will contribute the most. Even that aside, the ability to even hurt the likes of Kaido is a huge leap in power in itself.

Realistically, the entire SH crew could have gone up against Big Mom herself with Luffy in Gear 4th, they'd have been defeated at the level they were at.

The thing you're ignorant of is that it's not any different from Kaido.

Only difference here is Oda wants Kaido defeated, so he's going to boost Luffy's strength in a very short period of time in order to make it possible. He's already had him perfect his FS seemingly, already improving his use of Armament and to not see the possibility of Awakening would be denial on your part.

Your statement would have some basis if there was a year gap at the very least, but no, this is literally 2 weeks, and he's going to defeat someone that's very likely even stronger than Big Mom.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Realistically, the entire SH crew could have gone up against Big Mom herself with Luffy in Gear 4th, they'd have been defeated at the level they were at.

Lets say this was possible. Who was supposed to take others down? When you said BMP had to be defeated then it means the entire crew needs to go down.

As for you reasoning, if BM couldn't be defeated then Kaido wouldn't be either. That's where you are wrong. It has nothing to do with Kaido being weaker. Both settings are different. BM resided in a territory, where all the people present where allies. The only rebels were, Bege, Germa66, SHs and Fishmen. These groups had no manpower to take down BMP by themselves. If you want to take down a Yonkou you need a mass number of people helping you take them down. Marineford War is a prime example.

Wano is different. This where most of the strongest Supernova's have gathered. The entire SHs are present. There are people who are much much stronger than any allies that SHs had in WCI. Listing a few, Inu, Neko, Ashura, Kawamatsu, Denjiro, and other sheaths. If you remember, Ashura Doji even fought Kaido before and is still alive. Then they have all the rebels who are present in the prison who are about to become their allies. Then there is Luffy who is training to become stronger. Kidd and other supernovas are also getting character development, and obviously they are going to get stronger. There is also the X factor, BMPs themselves.

Oda himself said that Wano arc would be comaprable or greater than MW (iirc), not WCI. Then you also brought up the point that if the author wished to, then SHs could have defeated BMP if a similar situtation to Wano happened, such as someone training Luffy etc.. Yes you are right, if certain factors were there then Luffy could have gotten stronger and take on BM, BUT IT DIDN'T! And how do we know this? When the arc started, Oda's editor said that the WCI arc would be an extremely small one. He even gave a time frame as to how long the arc was meant to be. When you brought up the discussion of Luffy defeating BM, there wasn't enough time to do it anyway.

You are the one who claimed that BM used haki to block G4, hence Luffy can beat her. Gave Fujitora's panel as manga fact, gave Lucci vs Luffy fight as another manga fact, and called everyone delusional who disagreed with you. However, how quickly were you proven wrong by witnessing the fight between Katakuri and Luffy. How wrong you were. When I brought that up, you said SHs won narratively, NO SHIT SHERLOCK! If "narratively winning" is what your entire point was about, then you should have said so. Then let me make a statement as well, Luffy will become PK, I mean narratively he should right? Like how Naruto became the hokage.

The Yonko are just overrated.

Lol ok. Nvm Luffy get OHKO right?

 

[nik87]

Retard? There's clearly something wrong with you if you have to call people retarded simply for having a different opinion.
And mind you, Goku's Kameha is from distance, not from within an inch of someone's face.
Your reasoning is simply atrocious.
Claiming that Zoro could perform Haki before the time-skip which he took 2 years to learn the basics.

I am not calling you a retard. Going full retard is an expression from movie Tropic Thunder and it's used in general when someone isnt using their brain.
Goku can fire his energy blast without that exact position he does, gunslingers can shoot their bullets without that exact hand position but they all do the same position with their hand stretched out towards the enemy. It is the basic of a combat. You argument is futile.

You're painfully ill-informed.
There's no "Hardening" part of Armament Haki.
Armament Haki is ALWAYS Hard. It's a passive effect.

Once anything is imbued with Haki, it becomes hard by default. There's no "I'm go use the Haki for hardening, and then the one for fighting Logias: only 1 Armament Haki with 2 passive effects bud.
So, the idea that he was manipulating Haki... how can you manipulate Haki without being able to imbue a thing with Haki first and foremost?
Your theory is truly a terrible one given the lack of consistency.

I am well informed. Touching a logia with basic coating has nothing to do with hardness. When Luffy "grabs handful of logia" hardness is irrelevant, the focus is on tangibility. If they want Hardening they have to focus energy to make it hardened, otherwise, Hardening would not be a thing.
Hardening part is advanced way of using CoA and it is presented as blackened out. Haki blast is a release of Haki in the form of the force field and it is not harder than Hardening itself.

He was releasing Haki if flying slashes are Haki itself. It is a completely different technique from the focus to create Hardening. No reason why Haki release should not be possible if one isn't able to pull off Hardening.

Sorry, do you speak Japanese that you're actually able to claim these translators wrong?

I dont speak Japanese but doesnt take much brain activity to actually look at the pictures and see that Alpacaman was not moved even an inch. The away part never happened, translators didnt translate it well. Fact.

This is the epitome of nonsense right here.
Haki is ALWAYS hard.
There's no specific Armament for Hardening, Armament simply has 2 passive effects and that's being Hard and Touching Logias.
So, you're clearly lying here and making up false claims.

If you didnt realize Hardening is the hardest form of CoA since that's the point of that technique, to focus it on one spot to make it as hard as possible.
Haki blast technique can never be as hard as Hardening technique, nor can basic coating to interact with logias be as hard as Hardening.

If you dont realize the difference between these 3 ways of using CoA I cant help you.
I am not lying about anything. I have proven all your arguments to be on glassy legs.
Mind you, all I am saying is also not confirmed, just theory, I could be wrong about it but until it's clear as day no reason why I shouldn't take the approach that I am taking.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Hardening is the hardest form of CoA since that's the point of that technique

What!

Mention one character that can use CoA and can't use hardening.

I've tried calling your attention on this before. Hardening comes with CoA. The moment a character can use CoA, they can harden it. No further training required.

Corrections: The only problem they always had (Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji) was making use of CoA and any other colour of Haki bar CoC. That is why they had to train diligently for it.

 

[Brandish μ]

Um, the debate on haki is totally fine, but we can totally drop the 'logic' commentary. It's unnecessary for one, and it's getting repetitive to the point of spam.

On topic - personally I'm not so in the details of Haki's delivery, more into what it can effectively do. The breaking up Kaido's scales for example. I'm wondering why this palm pulse technique thing is required here. I mean sure, if this technique can be applied to all attacks to give them extra bite, great. But then why don't we see it all the time? It feels like this palm haki blow will be useful here, but have a drawback so it can't be spammed or has no utility in other situations. Like, the scales will be weaker at the edges, just needs something small and compact to wedge in there.

I am not calling you a retard. Going full retard is an expression from movie Tropic Thunder and it's used in general when someone isnt using their brain.

Yes the intent is not to insult with that popular expression from that film (though I understand it to mean not to commit 100% to something that you shouldn't). Just try to avoid the potentially controversial expressions in these threads if you can, since the heat is right up. Thanks.

 

[nik87]

What!

Mention one character that can use CoA and can't use hardening.

I've tried calling your attention on this before. Hardening comes with CoA. The moment a character can use CoA, they can harden it. No further training required.

Corrections: The only problem they always had (Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji) was making use of CoA and any other colour of Haki bar CoC. That is why they had to train diligently for it.

We dont know for sure if Hardening comes included or not but it is besides the point. Hardening is the peak of the hardness, it is harder than Haki release and basic coating. You can choose to use Hardening or not when using CoA, the point of using it is to get maximum hardness.
Luffy has been attacking Logia without using Hardening since maximum hardness was not needed in that moment.

No reason why the trio wasnt using Haki while they didnt know what it is nor had any mastery over it. Haki was always in them, whether they knew what it is or not doesnt determine if they could have been possibly using it.

On topic - personally I'm not so in the details of Haki's delivery, more into what it can effectively do. The breaking up Kaido's scales for example. I'm wondering why this palm pulse technique thing is required here. I mean sure, if this technique can be applied to all attacks to give them extra bite, great. But then why don't we see it all the time? It feels like this palm haki blow will be useful here, but have a drawback so it can't be spammed or has no utility in other situations. Like, the scales will be weaker at the edges, just needs something small and compact to wedge in there.

Kaido's scales are physical protection(even tho he doesnt have them in human form, the logic of that agrument that Luffy made is a bit off but may have to do with Kaido's hybrid form) and the point of this Haki blast technique may have to do with attacking Kaido's inner spirit energy and not his physical form(scales) or Luffy can make that Haki blast disperse from within Kaido so the scales would suffer the blast from the inside rather than outside.

I dont know, it doesnt make sense to me for now but we will see how it will play out and what use this technique will have against Kaido.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

What!

Mention one character that can use CoA and can't use hardening.

I've tried calling your attention on this before. Hardening comes with CoA. The moment a character can use CoA, they can harden it. No further training required.

Corrections: The only problem they always had (Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji) was making use of CoA and any other colour of Haki bar CoC. That is why they had to train diligently for it.

Well, Sanji and Sai's brother for one used the invisible version of armament. Not all armament haki users are capable of utilizing the black version.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Sanji and Sai's brother for one used the invisible version of armament. Not all armament haki users are capable of utilizing the black version.

The fact that they've used CoA means they can use hardening, or do you claim that Sanji can't harden his Haki?

I think it's something that has been consistent throughout the series.
The general rule that whoever can use CoA can use hardening. Feel free to prove it wrong though.

*I don't bite*

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 23, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 23, 2019 ---

Hardening is the peak of the hardness, it is harder than Haki release and basic coating.

I see it as when the Haki user feels the need to carry more punch in their attacks or deal greater damage, then they use hardening.

Not that they train to achieve CoA first, then train more to achieve hardening.
It's nothing like that IMO.

It's more like once they've achieved armament Haki, then they can use hardening as well.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

In fact I'll go ahead and make a good comparison for you guys.

Swordsmen that can use Haki (CoA) can coat their swords with it - hardening. The same things brawlers do when they coat their arms with it.

This is why back in Dressrosa. Oda gave us new info stating "every Marine soldier ranked Vice Admiral or higher can use Haki".
What happens next?
They all started to coat their swords in Haki.

Furthering the general rule: "whoever can use CoA can use hardening".

 

[Hrathgrath]

Um, the debate on haki is totally fine, but we can totally drop the 'logic' commentary. It's unnecessary for one, and it's getting repetitive to the point of spam.

On topic - personally I'm not so in the details of Haki's delivery, more into what it can effectively do. The breaking up Kaido's scales for example. I'm wondering why this palm pulse technique thing is required here. I mean sure, if this technique can be applied to all attacks to give them extra bite, great. But then why don't we see it all the time? It feels like this palm haki blow will be useful here, but have a drawback so it can't be spammed or has no utility in other situations. Like, the scales will be weaker at the edges, just needs something small and compact to wedge in there.



Yes the intent is not to insult with that popular expression from that film (though I understand it to mean not to commit 100% to something that you shouldn't). Just try to avoid the potentially controversial expressions in these threads if you can, since the heat is right up. Thanks.

The whole “breaking Kaidou’s scales” thing seems kinda strange to me. If the attack is a straight up extension of armor like Hp has “suggested” (who I’m pretty sure is straight up ignoring me, or plain has me on block lol!) I don’t see a difference in his standard CoA attacks. If it is a blast of haki, as spirit energy, I could see it having a kind of sandblast effect, or possibly like a directed explosion (which makes the most sense to me). But the drawback I could guess is it probably uses a great deal of haki.
Edit: if it is a strike against his spirit the “breaking his scales” part gets weird, Unless his scales are apart of his spirit as well. “Spirit scales”! Trademarking it now!

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 23, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 23, 2019 ---

Turns out Haki can repel attacks without even physical contact.

Just wanted to put that out there from your own words. @Hannibal Psyche

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

We dont know for sure if Hardening comes included or not but it is besides the point.

Conveniently besides the point isn't it.

Every time the Invisible Armament or Armament Haki is used, there's always Hardness coincidentally involved.

How coincidental?

Every instance Armament is used, there's some reference to Hardness, but you claim otherwise because "it's besides the point".

Convenient.

Are there any instances where Armament isn't making anything hard?

Sanji blocks a powerful bladed weapon with his legs, it doesn't slice it off. Surely, that's hinting at the fact Haki makes things hard?

I'm not sure of other instances where Haki is doing otherwise, maybe you have examples of where Haki and hardness aren't related.

 

[nik87]

@Hannibal Psyche All you need to answer is what is the difference between invisible CoA and Hardening CoA, everything should be clear.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

@Hannibal Psyche All you need to answer is what is the difference between invisible CoA and Hardening CoA, everything should be clear.

What you don't seem to grasp @nik87 ... is that both Armament Haki and Armament Hardening are both Hard.

Hardening is just HARDER.

This is why while this is not Hardening, it is still making the weapon Harder. It would obviously be much harder if Hardening were used.

You think that just because the Black Armament is called Hardening, that the Regular Armament isn't?

If anything, the word you should be looking at isn't Hardening, the word you should be focused on is "Armament" implying armour which is generally something that is hard which is why it is sufficient as armour while it's this very hardness that makes it useful as a weapon. Rayleigh explained all this.

I think everything makes sense now. Your perception of Haki is completely different from the Manga.

We'll end it here.

 

[Hrathgrath]

Since I’m fairly sure HP has me on block now, just wanted to say, after some thought I think the difference in standard CoA and “hardening” is: standard CoA works like an armor around the body, and “Hardening” effects the body itself. I’m basing this on the fact that “Hardening” actually has a name for the technique, “Koka” as in “Busoshoku: Koka!” Instead of just “Busoshoku”. Raleigh described CoA as “and invisible armor that surrounds the body. If you keep this in mind it makes sense why Luffy would use Koka instead of standard CoA, the invisible kind, because (in my mind) an external armor would restrict his stretching, but hardening his rubber wouldn’t. How making his rubber harder makes it stretch more (if that is indeed the case) is beyond me! Lol! Note: just to be clear, this doesn’t mean I think the attack Luffy is trying to figure out is a strike from an invisible shield. I’m still 90% sure it’s a Dan style hakoken. (For all those Street Fighter enthusiasts out there that get that reference, you rock!)

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 23, 2019, Original Post Date: Apr 23, 2019 ---

Also wanted to say that I think the whole branch of CoA is around the idea of manipulating your spirit energy to the form of weaponization. I seriously doubt your spirit is naturally hard. So you can harden it to an external armor, put it through your body and use it to harden your body (or weapons or whatnot) or flow it out of your body in a projected force. Just the word armament is defined as military weapons and equipment. Not simply armor.

 

[M3J]

Retard? There's clearly something wrong with you if you have to call people retarded simply for having a different opinion.

THE IRONY

Um, the debate on haki is totally fine, but we can totally drop the 'logic' commentary. It's unnecessary for one, and it's getting repetitive to the point of spam.

On topic - personally I'm not so in the details of Haki's delivery, more into what it can effectively do. The breaking up Kaido's scales for example. I'm wondering why this palm pulse technique thing is required here. I mean sure, if this technique can be applied to all attacks to give them extra bite, great. But then why don't we see it all the time? It feels like this palm haki blow will be useful here, but have a drawback so it can't be spammed or has no utility in other situations. Like, the scales will be weaker at the edges, just needs something small and compact to wedge in there.



Yes the intent is not to insult with that popular expression from that film (though I understand it to mean not to commit 100% to something that you shouldn't). Just try to avoid the potentially controversial expressions in these threads if you can, since the heat is right up. Thanks.

Perhaps the palm pulse can get inside Kaidou's body like gamma knife or what rasengan did to Kabuto? That might cause more damage to him than just going after his external body.

 

[thedude]

THE IRONY


Perhaps the palm pulse can get inside Kaidou's body like gamma knife or what rasengan did to Kabuto? That might cause more damage to him than just going after his external body.

That's what I'm thinking, kind of a shockwave. We know it's a force field like device and it can extend far off the body (see Marine Ford when the admirals blocked the earthquake). So I think Luffy will use it to do internal damage.

 

[M3J]

Yep, it seems like a good way to deal at least some damage to Kaidou, and it'd make his Future Sight even more relevant if Luffy has to get up close (his limbs definitely do). I wonder if Kaidou tried something similar....

 

[XXGenesis]

CoA...seems to have 2 applications.

Boa sisters; Fat dude W/Battle Axe; & Admirals have all used the "extended" armour type of Haki. It can deflect attacks and be used as an attacks. This seems to be the regular invisible Haki, but it can also be used as an extension on the body as armour or a weapon..

Then you have hardening haki. The haki we've seen the most of, and thought that was all there was to it. Hardening haki is just as it skunds.Using the invisible armour to harden your body itself. this is shown as the limbs or parts of the body turning black, showing hardening haki is being used.

As for The Swordsmen using the extended haki to cut through materials a metal sword wouldn't..Or to simply harden their blades so they won't break....Idk no idea of my own to make sense of jt....Old man mentioning Zoro's method or simply the feat isnt coincidental, it's related...Need more info before I come to any sort of conclusion