Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[nik87]

If someone can use Future sight, he can use most like the basic CoO aswell.
If someone can use Advanced CoA, he can use most like the basic CoA(Invisible haki and Black Hardening) aswell.

But if someone can use Basic CoO, it doesn´t mean he can use Future sight aswell.
The same goes for Basic CoA, someone who can use basic CoA most like can´t use advanced CoA.

In the new world most mid tier fighters can use basic CoO and basic CoA, but they can´t use Future sight or Advanced CoA.
That is the different here, both Future sight and Gokou are advanced ability of the haki types. Hyo use Black hardening when he use Gokou, Luffy use hardening aswell when he try to learn Gokou. It is just the next lvl of hardening(CoA), they aren´t seperate ability. Black hardening is a PART of Gokou as CoO(predict moves) is a part of Future sight. To use Gokou he need strong black hardening and good control of CoA, or you can´t use it.
No Black hardening= No Gokou..
No CoO= No Future sight.

Doesnt look like that when Rayleigh, Sentomaru, Boa sisters used it. Whether Hardening is required for haki blast is not yet clear.

 

[kkck]

Agreed. haki blasts or imbuing stuff with haki seems to be a different skill branch of armor haki so to speak. The implication so far is that long ranged cuts like zoro's are a haki related skill meaning that you don't need any skill in other haki areas to do it at that level at least.

 

[Eisenfaust]

Doesnt look like that when Rayleigh, Sentomaru, Boa sisters used it. Whether Hardening is required for haki blast is not yet clear.

Pre ts Oda never draw black hardening. Because that we can't say if Rayleigh,Sentomaru or the Boa sister use black hardening or not. But if we use the current information, either Hyo or Luffy(try) use black hardening as forst step and then they use Gokou!

If Gokou and black hardening are seperate ability, why either Hyo or Luffy using in first step black hardening? When Hyo use Gokou he use black hardening aswell, even when he use range attack and don't need to go in close combat(CoA). If he don't go in close combat why he use then black hardening?

Why Luffy use always black hardening when he was try to learn Gokou?
The answer seems simple, black hardening is the first step to use Gokou, black hardening is a part of Gokou.

 

[M3J]

Asspull when it was revealed hundreds of chapters ago?

That's a weird way to define an asspull. He needed stronger CoA... he trained for it, without anything but his own skill.

Odd that you would frame it that way.

It's an asspull to get stronger on your own despite having a very well proven ability to grow exponentially is a short amount of time.

Learned his gears in a day...
Learned Future Sight Advanced CoO in hours
Learned Advanced CoA and the Better version of it in a week....

I guess every time Luffy gets stronger it's an asspull to you

Yes. And is that a stronger CoA or a different version of CoA? THe Armament we're used to seeing damages the outside, while the Armament he trained for damages the inside, no?

Anything can be explained with a Rayleigh flashback. A new unknown haki that we've never hear of before or was hinted at before? RAYLEIGH FLASHBACK!

Thought it took Luffy more than a day to learn new gears. I'd say the same about any character though.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Yes. And is that a stronger CoA or a different version of CoA? THe Armament we're used to seeing damages the outside, while the Armament he trained for damages the inside, no?

Anything can be explained with a Rayleigh flashback. A new unknown haki that we've never hear of before or was hinted at before? RAYLEIGH FLASHBACK!

Thought it took Luffy more than a day to learn new gears. I'd say the same about any character though.

It's both a stronger and different (external vs internal) I keep posting the proven panel but it gets brushed off because people don't like to read it.

I'm not a fan of the Rayliegh flashbacks but that's not an asspull. Rayliegh showed that particular use of haki 400+ chapters ago. That shouldn't be considered an ass pull. That's Oda forshadowing.

 

[M3J]

Just wondering because it feels like orange and apple even though they're both Color of Armament.

So why not teach Luffy that? And didn't we get that haki from everyone who could use it?

 

[Pirate Queen]

Just wondering because it feels like orange and apple even though they're both Color of Armament.

So why not teach Luffy that? And didn't we get that haki from everyone who could use it?

And in the most generalized way it is... we want punches/ slashes to hurt the most and these haki upgrades get us that.

And advanced levels of haki must learned. Haki blooms in adversity like Rayliegh said. Awoken in the heat of battle.

As for why only Rayleigh and Luffy know this type... it's probably because it's a technique only true elites are able to utilize. It requires tremendous skill or Rayliegh developed it.

 

[M3J]

In different ways...

And Luffy had plenty of chances to learn it prior to the timeskip but didn't, especially with Color of Observation when finding Robin was important, so I dunno.

The haki Rayleigh showed? I think far more people now, but again, why did Luffy learn it this arc and not from Rayleigh?

 

[Rmstorm]

In different ways...

And Luffy had plenty of chances to learn it prior to the timeskip but didn't, especially with Color of Observation when finding Robin was important, so I dunno.

The haki Rayleigh showed? I think far more people now, but again, why did Luffy learn it this arc and not from Rayleigh?

Only Rayleigh, Garp and Luffy have it. Garp used it against Marco to take him down in one hit, bypassing his regenration, when none of the Admirals could do that at Marineford without help and seastone.

Marco had a bandage on his head, from where Garp punched him post Marineford.

None of the Admirals or Yonko except for maybe Shanks have it.

 

[Pirate Queen]

In different ways...

And Luffy had plenty of chances to learn it prior to the timeskip but didn't, especially with Color of Observation when finding Robin was important, so I dunno.

The haki Rayleigh showed? I think far more people now, but again, why did Luffy learn it this arc and not from Rayleigh?

Not in different ways, tf?

Because there wasnt a time when he needed it. And we are talking about pre-timeskip when haki wasnt a fully fleshed out concept.

Vs Doflamingo Gear 4 was enough
Vs Katakuri CoO was the focus
Vs Kaido CoA if the focus

Why would he develop this CoA against Katakuri... what good would it have done if Katakuri could predict his movements?

Your not making a point here. Everything your asking is addressed in the manga. From how your commenting it's like your memory of events are hazy. Like you don't remember what happened very well. Am I correct in assuming that?

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 5, 2019, Original Post Date: Dec 5, 2019 ---

Only Rayleigh, Garp and Luffy have it. Garp used it against Marco to take him down in one hit, bypassing his regenration, when none of the Admirals could do that at Marineford without help and seastone.

Marco had a bandage on his head, from where Garp punched him post Marineford.

None of the Admirals or Yonko except maybe Shanks have it.

No proof Garp has it as far as I recall.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 5, 2019 ---

Only Rayleigh, Garp and Luffy have it. Garp used it against Marco to take him down in one hit, bypassing his regenration, when none of the Admirals could do that at Marineford without help and seastone.

Marco had a bandage on his head, from where Garp punched him post Marineford.

None of the Admirals or Yonko except maybe Shanks have it.

No proof Garp has it as far as I recall.

 

[Rmstorm]

Not in different ways, tf?

Because there wasnt a time when he needed it. And we are talking about pre-timeskip when haki wasnt a fully fleshed out concept.

Vs Doflamingo Gear 4 was enough
Vs Katakuri CoO was the focus
Vs Kaido CoA if the focus

Why would he develop this CoA against Katakuri... what good would it have done if Katakuri could predict his movements?

Your not making a point here. Everything your asking is addressed in the manga. From how your commenting it's like your memory of events are hazy. Like you don't remember what happened very well. Am I correct in assuming that?

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 5, 2019, Original Post Date: Dec 5, 2019 ---

No proof Garp has it as far as I recall.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 5, 2019 ---

No proof Garp has it as far as I recall.

He was the only person that was able to hurt Marco at Marineford without seastone. All the Admirals failed to hurt Marco.

 

[HereNThere]

The Admirals are implied to know Ryou. The way they protected the execution scaffold from Whitebeard's attack kinda hints at it.

We should also move this to the haki thread.

 

[Rmstorm]

The Admirals are implied to know Ryou. The way they protected the execution scaffold from Whitebeard's attack kinda hints at it.

We should also move this to the haki thread.

They know the first level of Ryou. There is Advanced Ryou which is destroying things from the inside out. Only Garp. Rayleigh and Luffy have used it. It is extremely rare. Garp used it against Marco, when the Admirals could not hurt marco without seastone.

 

[kkck]

Hurting marco isn't the issue. Marco's ability is to heal, not intangibility. So anyone can hurt marco and he'd heal it regardless. The implication so far is that marco's regeneration is limited though, presumably by his stamina. No version of CoA haki would make a speck of a difference to that. At the most you'd simply deal more damage and spend marco's ability to heal faster.

 

[M3J]

Only Rayleigh, Garp and Luffy have it. Garp used it against Marco to take him down in one hit, bypassing his regenration, when none of the Admirals could do that at Marineford without help and seastone.

Marco had a bandage on his head, from where Garp punched him post Marineford.

None of the Admirals or Yonko except for maybe Shanks have it.

Proof Garp knows it? Because as far as I know, he doesn't seem to need haki to deal damage, and no other admirals used haki.

Not in different ways, tf?

Because there wasnt a time when he needed it. And we are talking about pre-timeskip when haki wasnt a fully fleshed out concept.

Vs Doflamingo Gear 4 was enough
Vs Katakuri CoO was the focus
Vs Kaido CoA if the focus

Why would he develop this CoA against Katakuri... what good would it have done if Katakuri could predict his movements?

Your not making a point here. Everything your asking is addressed in the manga. From how your commenting it's like your memory of events are hazy. Like you don't remember what happened very well. Am I correct in assuming that?

How are they not different? One does external damage while the other does internal damage.

He needed it against Crocodile and probably against Lucci and the pacifista. Had Luffy had Color of Observation, he could have done better against Mihawk's slashes, and if he had Color of Armament, he would have beaten Crocodile before the third round. Why would he need to learn to develop haki or have it come to him in time of great need after he already knows how to use haki? Hence pre-timeskip examples. But it doesn't change the fact that if Rayleigh knew those types of haki, he'd have taught Luffy, not give us convenient flashbacks when Luffy learns new haki.

My memories are hazy, true, but a lot of it doesn't make sense either way, coupled with your explanations.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Proof Garp knows it? Because as far as I know, he doesn't seem to need haki to deal damage, and no other admirals used haki.


How are they not different? One does external damage while the other does internal damage.

He needed it against Crocodile and probably against Lucci and the pacifista. Had Luffy had Color of Observation, he could have done better against Mihawk's slashes, and if he had Color of Armament, he would have beaten Crocodile before the third round. Why would he need to learn to develop haki or have it come to him in time of great need after he already knows how to use haki? Hence pre-timeskip examples. But it doesn't change the fact that if Rayleigh knew those types of haki, he'd have taught Luffy, not give us convenient flashbacks when Luffy learns new haki.

My memories are hazy, true, but a lot of it doesn't make sense either way, coupled with your explanations.

He. Can't. teach. Luffy. In Advanced. Haki.
Haki. Blooms. In. Adversity.

Fuck pal, I'm trying to help you.

Luffy had haki pre-timeskip. BB acknowledges it in Impel Down, but it was PRE timeskip where haki feats were scarce

Check out the center panel.

 

[kkck]

But... hyogoro did teach luffy advanced haki. Luffy did learn a bit on his own of course through the adversity stuff but the manga does not actually evidence you can't be taught the advanced versions of haki. And when it comes to advanced versions of haki, luffy only got there because he had seen other people do it in the past, which is also learning from them. Extreme conditions might be ideal for learning and mastering advanced versions of haki but its a pretty big stretch to say they can't be taught. Heck, all the kuja know the basic version of ryo... The only way that make sense is if they make a point to teach it.

 

[Pirate Queen]

But... hyogoro did teach luffy advanced haki. Luffy did learn a bit on his own of course through the adversity stuff but the manga does not actually evidence you can't be taught the advanced versions of haki. And when it comes to advanced versions of haki, luffy only got there because he had seen other people do it in the past, which is also learning from them. Extreme conditions might be ideal for learning and mastering advanced versions of haki but its a pretty big stretch to say they can't be taught. Heck, all the kuja know the basic version of ryo... The only way that make sense is if they make a point to teach it.

"Luffy... I have trained you"

Litterally his first words in the panel I provided.

 

[M3J]

He. Can't. teach. Luffy. In Advanced. Haki.
Haki. Blooms. In. Adversity.

Fuck pal, I'm trying to help you.

Luffy had haki pre-timeskip. BB acknowledges it in Impel Down, but it was PRE timeskip where haki feats were scarce

Check out the center panel.

Yes he can, and why can't he challenge Luffy to the point of nearly killing him, then? That's teaching as well. Hell, Hyogoro taught Luffy, and Luffy put himself in a dangerous situation against Katakuri to learn. Rayleigh can do the same.

That is very odd, given that was the only time someone acknowledged Luffy having haki before the timeskip, and I'm trying to remember when Luffy started training with Luffy. Didn't see the haki usage against the Boa sisters either, or against the Admirals.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Yes he can, and why can't he challenge Luffy to the point of nearly killing him, then? That's teaching as well. Hell, Hyogoro taught Luffy, and Luffy put himself in a dangerous situation against Katakuri to learn. Rayleigh can do the same.

That is very odd, given that was the only time someone acknowledged Luffy having haki before the timeskip, and I'm trying to remember when Luffy started training with Luffy. Didn't see the haki usage against the Boa sisters either, or against the Admirals.

Your saying he can... the manga is saying otherwise. Perhaps it needs to feel like Luffy really is going to get killed. Luffy wouldn't really be in danger. I dont know. I'm not Oda. All I know is the information that is given to us in the manga that has Rayleigh stating that real danger has to be present for haki to fully advance. The experience of life and death extremes conditions battle.

And as I keep telling you. Blackbeard randomly told us Luffy had haki. Many of us didnt even fully under what haki even was at that point. No one trained Luffy in haki... it BLOOMED from the countless battles he had endured. Rayliegh could only teach Luffy the concepts/basics.

Luffy fighting Mihawk is another prime example of Luffy unlocking CoO in the midst of an extreme battle, further hinting one could take CoO to the extremes of even seeing the future because he has foreseen his arms getting cut off if he attacked Mihawk.