Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[Rein Avara]

Even if that were the case... ambiguity shouldn't play to sanji's favor. As in, if we don't see oda specifically drawing hardened haki... why assume sanji has it? The way I see it, either we see a specific visual representation of sanji using this type of haki (same as with everyone else) or he isn't using it.

He's been shown with it, so I think it's safe to assume he has it. Although in that particular scene I referred to above it was a quick display of it.


Unless we're strictly taking the manga into account here

 

[Nie Li]

He's been shown with it, so I think it's safe to assume he has it. Although in that particular scene I referred to above it was a quick display of it.


Unless we're strictly taking the manga into account here

In the manga it's too small to see, but he definitely kicks the blade right at the middle and completely stops its motion (for which he must have kicked against the very edge and not at it's side). So yeah, while we don't see it, I think the safe assumption is that he used hardening or he would have been seriously cut.

 

[kkck]

He's been shown with it, so I think it's safe to assume he has it. Although in that particular scene I referred to above it was a quick display of it.


Unless we're strictly taking the manga into account here

Well... yeah, I don't hold the anime to have much relevance (specially since at it's best it butchers the series). The manga page does not make a point of showing anything.

 

[Rein Avara]

They are a lot of inconsistency when it comes to the portrayal of Hardening but I think we're safe to take the anime's material into consideration, I don't think it's something they can add without Oda's say so. Besides the whole point of the anime is to expand on what the manga fails to display.

I think when it comes to the new world it would be appropriate to assume that all the top fighters use hardening.

But that's just my opinion, even Luffy isn't shown using armament hardening all the time.

 

[Nie Li]

They are a lot of inconsistency when it comes to the portrayal of Hardening but I think we're safe to take the anime's material into consideration, I don't think it's something they can add without Oda's say so. Besides the whole point of the anime is to expand on what the manga fails to display.

I think when it comes to the new world it would be appropriate to assume that all the top fighters use hardening.

But that's just my opinion, even Luffy isn't shown using armament hardening all the time.

I don't think that the point of the anime is what you just said. The only reason they make fights longer and change minor details is because of two reasons:
1- Taking longer to catch the manga.
2- Making things easier to animate.

They have actually brought down character's techniques or feats from time to time, and the same way we shouldn't take those times into account, we should also ignore when they do the opposite.


Then again I do think he must have used armament in that manga panel, but there's no way to prove it for real.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Hardening is just denser coa. Thats it.

Thinking Sanji doesnt have something so basic in the NW is seriously laughable.

Hardening isn't special. It's not a new version of haki all together. Its just denser, invisible, haki lol

 

[hokageji]

CoA is referred to as invisible armor, so that's the most basic mode, invisible armament...

Hardening, imbuement, and emission are all evolved versions of invisible armament....

I think invisible armament was first shown when Zoro cut down Mr 1..... harderning was post time skip, imbuement was when Zoro referred to a flashback on protecting the sword with Miawk, and emission is Sentomaru i guess..

 

[kkck]

The technique to cut metal or... not cut stuff seems somewhat haki related though I doubt it's straight up CoA. Otherwise zoro would have had shown CoA way earlier...

Hardening isn't a mere visual cue of haki for readers, its an actual observable change in things in the series. It's the same thing that happens with zoro's swords... Unless for some reason the change is a mere visual cue for readers when it comes to hardening your own body but a literal one when it comes to blades.. but that is kinda absurd.

 

[King Moe]

Well with latest chapter, Sanji was able to block fiery kick from King and I doubt if he had Basic COA, it be enough to stop YC's attack, so pretty sure he does have it as well King, but both share case of their color schemes making it hard to see if they are using Haki along with their flames, but pretty sure both can use Hardening at this point. Looking how next chapter going, His Haki is very strong as he will survive next attack by King who wanted to use more power in his Full Zoan form. We shouldn't be doubting Sanji's Haki development at this point given he already shown capabilities of damaging and dominance on his enemies already.

 

[hokageji]

Well with latest chapter, Sanji was able to block fiery kick from King and I doubt if he had Basic COA, it be enough to stop YC's attack, so pretty sure he does have it as well King, but both share case of their color schemes making it hard to see if they are using Haki along with their flames, but pretty sure both can use Hardening at this point. Looking how next chapter going, His Haki is very strong as he will survive next attack by King who wanted to use more power in his Full Zoan form. We shouldn't be doubting Sanji's Haki development at this point given he already shown capabilities of damaging and dominance on his enemies already.

This battle with King was so interesting, cos we kinda realize that Sanji is always fighting with a handicap. He anyways doesnt use his hands for the attack so when he countered King's kick with his kick, he couldn't dodge King's choke because he was holding onto Momo... Without Momo, perhaps he would've used his other leg or something, like we saw how he beat Jabra.. of course, that wouldnt have stopped King by any means but nevertheless its a great battle...

But i think Sanji is a bit injured here, considering how Luffy ran towards him. Otherwise Luffy never would

 

[kkck]

Sanji is piggy bagging on his raid suit though. And it does seem to provide substantial defensive capabilities to the user even regardless of haki. Overall the situation is the same, no one can point to an actual instance of sanji definitively using hardening.

 

[King Moe]

Sanji is piggy bagging on his raid suit though. And it does seem to provide substantial defensive capabilities to the user even regardless of haki. Overall the situation is the same, no one can point to an actual instance of sanji definitively using hardening.

Nothing piggy backing and just you unable to disprove him not having it and it's illogical he doesn't have Harden at this point. Your not fighting YC with low Haki to even block their attacks. RS works on certain stats, but not on everything though and his power is one of them. His skills have been growing and getting stronger where he can fight without RS and with it. That is obvious about how he works here just like color scheme issue been stated above.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 26, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 26, 2020 ---

This battle with King was so interesting, cos we kinda realize that Sanji is always fighting with a handicap. He anyways doesnt use his hands for the attack so when he countered King's kick with his kick, he couldn't dodge King's choke because he was holding onto Momo... Without Momo, perhaps he would've used his other leg or something, like we saw how he beat Jabra.. of course, that wouldnt have stopped King by any means but nevertheless its a great battle...

But i think Sanji is a bit injured here, considering how Luffy ran towards him. Otherwise Luffy never would

Idk about that as this first time Luffy saw it in action and doesn't know RS can do as well skills Sanji got stronger with. Sanji survive the attack and will keep fighting as you can't expect YCs and Yonkos to go down easily as it will be struggle.

Honestly crashing into another area gives me Sanji vs Jabra vibes more since it happen first time they fight and Sanji still came out still fighting and defeated him. It be interesting to see how fight progress goes along the way in the war as doubt both are done with each other.

 

[kkck]

Nothing piggy backing and just you unable to disprove him not having it and it's illogical he doesn't have Harden at this point. Your not fight YC with low Haki to even block their attacks. RS works on certain stats, but not on everything though and his power is one of them. His skills have been growing and getting stronger where he can fight without RS and with it. That is obvious about how he works here just like color scheme issue been stated above.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 26, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 26, 2020 ---

Idk about that as this first time Luffy saw it in action and doesn't know RS can do as well skills Sanji got stronger with. Sanji survive the attack and will keep fighting as you can't expect YCs and Yonkos to go down easily as it will be struggle.

Honestly crashing into another area gives me Sanji vs Jabra vibes more since it happen first time they fight and Sanji still came out still fighting and defeated him. It be interesting to see how fight progress goes along the way in the war as doubt both are done with each other.

The burden of proof is not on me on this one. It's simply a fact that we have no seen him use it. The raid suit boost seems to be pretty general. As in, we can reasonable expect it to provide a boost in speed, strength and endurance. Sure, his skills have been growing but at a minimum at this point in the story there are zero confirmed instances of him using it. And as I have been saying, the color scheme bit isn't that problematic. Oda could simply draw sanji's legs with the same color shading as with luffy's gear third or as he drew full body hardening vergo. The color scheme is simply a non issue.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

CoA is referred to as invisible armor, so that's the most basic mode, invisible armament...

Hardening, imbuement, and emission are all evolved versions of invisible armament....

I think invisible armament was first shown when Zoro cut down Mr 1..... harderning was post time skip, imbuement was when Zoro referred to a flashback on protecting the sword with Miawk, and emission is Sentomaru i guess..

Not true at all.

There is, of course, the "invisible one", but all are practically invisible to the eye of a One Piece world inhabitant.

This was evident when before the timeskip we weren't shown black coating on Rayleigh's hand, but after the timeskip, in Luffy's flashback, the very same scene shows us that there was in fact black coating at that moment.

 

[kkck]

Not true at all.

There is, of course, the "invisible one", but all are practically invisible to the eye of a One Piece world inhabitant.

This was evident when before the timeskip we weren't shown black coating on Rayleigh's hand, but after the timeskip, in Luffy's flashback, the very same scene shows us that there was in fact black coating at that moment.

That completely ignores hardening applies to swords and the change to them is very literal and occasionally permanent. It'd be absurd if the change is only meant as a visual cue for readers but in turn is literal when it comes to swords.

 

[King Moe]

The burden of proof is not on me on this one. It's simply a fact that we have no seen him use it. The raid suit boost seems to be pretty general. As in, we can reasonable expect it to provide a boost in speed, strength and endurance. Sure, his skills have been growing but at a minimum at this point in the story there are zero confirmed instances of him using it. And as I have been saying, the color scheme bit isn't that problematic. Oda could simply draw sanji's legs with the same color shading as with luffy's gear third or as he drew full body hardening vergo. The color scheme is simply a non issue.

He can't do in same shading since it's hard to do with color black since it's can't be made like that easily. It is one of the issues as you can say same thing about King if he can't use COA or not given his darken suit as so far we can't tell on it given his flames and color scheme. Because of that it makes it hard to see, but doesn't push that characters are unable to use Haki on that level. That is a fact about it and RS doesn't increase his power and speed as maybe endurance, but we seen already he is fine fighting even without it and can handle things fine as well. It's more of situational with RS, not desire for power about it since invisibility will not increase power no matter what to push it and his skills are still his own.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

That completely ignores hardening applies to swords and the change to them is very literal and occasionally permanent. It'd be absurd if the change is only meant as a visual cue for readers but in turn is literal when it comes to swords.

Nope. How does it ignore that? Mihawk in Zoro's flashback was talking about a different concept which is black blades. Black blades are visibly black, haki isn't. Only to us readers.

 

[kkck]

He can't do in same shading since it's hard to do with color black since it's can't be made like that easily. It is one of the issues as you can say same thing about King if he can't use COA or not given his darken suit as so far we can't tell on it given his flames and color scheme. Because of that it makes it hard to see, but doesn't push that characters are unable to use Haki on that level. That is a fact about it and RS doesn't increase his power and speed as maybe endurance, but we seen already he is fine fighting even without it and can handle things fine as well. It's more of situational with RS, not desire for power about it since invisibility will not increase power no matter what to push it and his skills are still his own.

But... why? We have seen this with vergo (full body hardening), luffy (his big ass gear 3 fists) and pica (full body hardening). but suddenly shading sanji's pants is an insurmountable nigh yonko level task?

Also, the raid suit definitely increases pretty much everything. Endurance is a given given that it is essentially an armor and we have seen sanji's siblings outspeeding sanji due to their flight. The suit is a pretty ideal tool for someone whose haki is lagging.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 27, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 27, 2020 ---

Nope. How does it ignore that? Mihawk in Zoro's flashback was talking about a different concept which is black blades. Black blades are visibly black, haki isn't. Only to us readers.

It's literally the same technique, except one applies to your own limbs and another is an application of projected haki. Hardened limbs ARE visibly black.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

It's literally the same technique, except one applies to your own limbs and another is an application of projected haki. Hardened limbs ARE visibly black.

No it's not. Turning a blade black permanently is different from temporarily cladding it in haki.

Hardened limbs are visibly black to us, it's how Oda lets us distinguish between haki and non-haki attacks.

A character in OP is yet to say anything about black armament being visible to the eye. In fact the first time Luffy used black coating in Gear 3 in front of his nakama none of them commented on the blackness of it, only the size of Luffy's Gear 3 arm.

 

[kkck]

No it's not. Turning a blade black permanently is different from temporarily cladding it in haki.

Hardened limbs are visibly black to us, it's how Oda lets us distinguish between haki and non-haki attacks.

A character in OP is yet to say anything about black armament being visible to the eye. In fact the first time Luffy used black coating in Gear 3 in front of his nakama none of them commented on the blackness of it, only the size of Luffy's Gear 3 arm.

That's factually incorrect. Hardening is a specific technique, distinct from regular invisible haki. Plenty of characters still use the basic version of haki (like sanji). Or luffy when grabbing caesar. Or zoro when cutting monet... Hardening causes a visible change in color for characters in the series. Hardening a limb and hardening a sword (as in making it black) is literally the same technique, it's just applied differently. Heck, hardening has a specific name within the series...