Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[Ellenate]

The Samurai were broken until Ghost from the past appeared in Wano again. As to why they attacked Luffy in Udon on Kaido’s Crew’s orders.

You’ll die if you don’t submit. Luffy escaped Udon because he the main character duh. Everyone else was going to die...Hyogoro, & Kidd(udon) Rooftop* they refused to join so he went in for the kill

Yeah, that's how bad of a conquer kaido is, they chose death over following him.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I don't just disagree with things, that's one thing I want to make clear.

IF there's no evidence, I dismiss it.

If you claim something, it must be backed by evidence to be believed. That's just how it is and should be.

You said before that CoA was a power to make everything stronger, which I replied that it was obviously more than that and explained

CoA just makes things harder.

The amount of pain you'd feel from a stick as opposed to a metal bar is different because one's harder.

There's nothing more to CoA than that. It's just a power to make things harder. Harder means more powerful.

One Piece Wiki : "The term "Haki" is a word that has multiple meanings when translated into English. It can mean "ambition", "will power", "drive", "spirit", "vigor" etc...

When the Haki concept appeared, a lot of people wondered how to translate it because Oda didn't really give a clear definition (at least at the time), even translators for scans were a bit confused. Below is just a quick google research to show you that it's not something I came up with on a whim : debates on AP Forum, Reddit, etc... ; Mentions on One Piece Wiki, Mentions of Will and Haki on Arthur's Library, and there's a lot more to find on youtube etc...

Wiki is not a One Piece manga panel which I asked for and you've shown no panel because you have no proof.

There's no One Piece panel that indicates or states or implies that, otherwise, you'd show me.

They also said IT CAN, not that it means. In fact, ambition and willpower... those are 2 words that mean different things. So, just because Haki can be translated as those... doesn't mean they mean those things.

Ambition means someone who has high goals/ Will power doesn't mean someone that has high goals, 2 completely different words.

Words have synonyms. Love and Like are 2 words that are synonymous, but Love is still a different word from Like.

Haki can mean Ambition, Will power, Drive, Spirit. Doesn't mean it means those things in the context of One Piece.

Reddit, Arthur, Wiki, they're just giving their opinions, Just because Wiki or Reddit or Arthur says something doesn't mean they're correct.

Only thing that determines something correct is evidence.

I wanted to say that knowing Luffy, we could assume that his stamina was far superior than his Haki, that's it. Nothing more.

Can't compare Haki and Stamina.

How do you quantify his Haki to know it exceeds the capacity of his Stamina? How do you measure it?

Strong willpower produces Haki, so it's different.

Not correct.

Many strong-willed people without Haki:

1. Crocodile for example.
2. Vivi.

Luffy as a kid was strong-willed, he got beaten up so bad he could have died, but chose not to expose Ace or Sabo, yet he wasn't using Haki until 12 years later.

Strong will power doesn't produce Haki.

Strong will power allows one to persevere in learning Haki just like anything else that one wants to learn.

If I want to learn 10 languages, I need strong-will power because it'll be difficult.

0 evidence that Will power is related to Haki.

Seastone depletes Haki.

This is wrong and I'll prove it.

The minute Luffy's Seastone is removed, he can use Haki. It's not depleting Haki, otherwise he'd need 10 minutes to recover and regain his Haki back after being cuffed in seastone.

Gear 4th depletes Haki, and then he can't use it again for 10 minutes. If seastone depleted Haki, he'd need 10 minutes to recover.

Seastone simply locks up the ability to use Haki, not deplete it.

I asked you to show me where it was stated that using haki is not taxing stamina.

It's simple.

Luffy was able to still move despite having no Haki, therefore, it has nothing to do with Stamina. That is simple common sense.

Don't show me that Luffy can have stamina without haki, that's irrelevant.

Wrong.

It is relevant because it proves one can still have stamina without Haki.

Ever heard the expression actions speak louder than words? Well, there you go.

If you see someone doing backflips, running marathons without breathing heavily and not even breaking a sweat... wouldn't you say that's evidence of someone being energetic even without being told so? It's simple common sense logic. Would you really need someone to spell that out for you?

Gear 4th is very taxing on the body, yes Rayleigh did mentioned it on a quick flashback panel during Luffy/Doflamingo's fight. Did you also notice that Gear 4th is the only form we have seen exclusively with haki ? How can you be sure that Haki has nothing to do with it ?! Show me please, just like you want me to show everything everytime.

Quite simple.

All Armament Haki does is make things hard.

Luffy makes his body harder with Haki and inflates it meaning his attacks have more power via recoil.

Haki simply adds more tension to his body. Moving one's body when there's more tension added to it makes movement harder.

Maybe try doing exercise with bands and see how much taxing the movement becomes.

The only reason he gets tired with Gear 4th is because he's using more physical power.

All the Haki does is make his body hard, it's not the Haki making him tired.

Even Joker understood this and knew Luffy was going to get tired quickly.

Only reason his Haki gets depleted is because he's using it all over his body meaning simply moving any part of his body comes with having to struggle through much more tension to produce much more power.

Have you ever tried stretching a very strong band? The stronger the band, the harder it is to pull. Luffy's body is literally like a car tyre with elasticity. Can you imagine trying to pull and compress a tyre? That'll tire anyone out.

You do know that Haki was a thing before the name was even coined and stated ? So what ? It didn't exist before ?!

Never said otherwise. Not sure where you found me saying it never existed before.

One piece is a story not a manual : Everything don't have to be told to enjoy it.

Never said otherwise.

Nonetheless, you can't make things up and expect people to believe it.

There's rule that pertain to Haki and rules that pertain to DFs. DFs will always be affected by seastone or water, that's the rule; Haki has it's limitations and applications, the rules don't change from character to character.

Evidence or it's nonsense, that's how it works unfortunately.

 

[XXGenesis]

Yeah, that's how bad of a conquer kaido is, they chose death over following him.

Your Humor is noted. I sense some denial through the humor . Having 100% success rate isn’t needed.

Apoo & Hawkins Surrendered.
Tobi Roppo Surrendered.
Many Gifters Surrendered.
Banquet Hall, Orochi forces surrender.

 

[Ellenate]

Having 100% success rate isn’t needed.

Obviously but a certain level of success is necessary (with narrative claims, i'd expect kaido to score in the 90th percentile). Having a prison, filled with people giving you the finger, is a huge blow.

---

Luffy being able to match kaido, makes sense if a person's ability to subjugate, plays a factor in their conqueror's haki strength. Kaido's main tool is fear, any fool with the means, could do the same.

...i'm giving oda too much credit though. he's just pulling it weekly, there is no rhyme, or reason.

 

[Geez]

CoA just makes things harder.

Doesn't explain why Logias become suddenly tangible in contact with CoA... the hardness force them to ? hmm
Not convincing.

Wiki is not a One Piece manga panel which I asked for and you've shown no panel because you have no proof. There's no One Piece panel that indicates or states or implies that, otherwise, you'd show me.

Well if you want panels : there was the panel with Shanks and Whitebeard, or the panel Blackbeard/luffy, maybe I can fetch you others but what's the point ? Viz chose to keep Haki because it means several things altogether. See ? Different translations.

How do you quantify his Haki to know it exceeds the capacity of his Stamina? How do you measure it?

Who cares ?

Geez said:
Strong willpower produces Haki, so it's different.

Not correct. Strong will power doesn't produce Haki. [...] 0 evidence that Will power is related to Haki.

I agree heartedly with the first part, it was the third time I was explaining to you though. So yeah, errors.
(4th time now)
Haki is a spiritual energy. Spiritual energy means it comes from one's spirit. So Haki = finite. Haki isn't the spirit, it's a product of it. Can't make it simpler.
Haki has a lot of different meanings and can simultaneously mean several things. Some of them are "ambition", "will" or "will power" etc.. How come it's not even the slightest evidence ? It's the definition of the damn word.

Even Rayleigh says that Haki means different things altogether.
"Haki is a power that exists within every single human being. "Presence", "Spirit", "Aura", It is no different from these basic concepts with witch anyone should be familiar"

Haki can mean Ambition, Will power, Drive, Spirit. Doesn't mean it means those things in the context of One Piece.

So now, you get to choose what a word doesn't mean in OP ?! It's pretty convenient. Love your methods.

Seastone simply locks up the ability to use Haki, not deplete it.

Fine by me actually.

Geez said:
I asked you to show me where it was stated that using haki is not taxing stamina.

It's simple. Luffy was able to still move despite having no Haki, therefore, it has nothing to do with Stamina. That is simple common sense.

Show me where it's stated that the USE of haki doesn't affect stamina, not the absence of it.
I fear I will have to use my HP trump card : "IF there's no evidence, I dismiss it."

All Armament Haki does is make things hard. Luffy makes his body harder with Haki and inflates it meaning his attacks have more power via recoil. Haki simply adds more tension to his body. Moving one's body when there's more tension added to it makes movement harder.

That was pretty logic, I like it. But it's still interpretation from what is said and drawn. Tss Tss, where is the method ? I want to be 100% sure that stamina isn't involved when you use haki.
So where's the evidence ? the statement ? IF there's no evidence, I dismiss it.

Nonetheless, you can't make things up and expect people to believe it.
There's rule that pertain to Haki and rules that pertain to DFs.

It's called making theories : You take known parts of a hidden truth and you hypothesize something from it because you can't obtain the real truth otherwise. The pseudo-scientific methods you think are using only allow you to see what is presented to you, that's it. That's the difference between science and theology, you can use all the methods you want but you won't obtain something more from a book.

I didn't want people to believe my vision of something not explained yet, all I wanted is to explore possibilities. But with your methods and manners, you're just making this impossible to discuss.

I like to read others thoughts on OP not because it's documented on a three pages post, but because they can think outside the box.

My only purpose was to speak about the influence a trauma can have on a CoC user. How it could affect his personality but could also explain his combat failures.

Look where we are now.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

There is no theme of breaking wills.

All the Emperors do this.

Big Mom forces you to marry into her family or she'll kill your family.

Kaido forces you to join his crew.

This is just how the Emperors behave, at least the ones that are evil, they use force for everything.

A Gifter mentions their crew is full of captains that have given up and it’s best to submit......Kaido himself told Kidd & Luffy to give up n submit to him..As to why he locked them up in Udon didn’t kill them to break their spirits....WOW how did you miss all of this

You literally stated something that we all know.

People join the Emperors or fight against them to defeat them and establish their own power.

Hell, even WCI mentions this.

This is not a theme in the "Wano arc". This is everyday in the New World.

Either join, attempt to take down an Emperor, or lose and join.


In fact, Kaido didn't break the wills of Wano. Do you know it's taken them 20 years to full takeover Wano?

Do you know only a year ago, Amigasa Village was still fighting back against Kaido?


So, this supposed theme of breaking wills is not a thing. This is what Emperors do. They recruit strong people so they can become stronger and more influential in the New World.

Why this is even discussed on the Haki thread is beyond me. Kaido forcing people to join his crew or Big Mom doing the same... it's not Haki related, it's just another day in the New World.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 13, 2021 ---

Doesn't explain why Logias become suddenly tangible in contact with CoA... the hardness force them to ? hmm
Not convincing.

Never said it didn't do that either. It's common knowledge.

Well if you want panels : there was the panel with Shanks and Whitebeard, or the panel Blackbeard/luffy, maybe I can fetch you others but what's the point ? Viz chose to keep Haki because it means several things altogether. See ? Different translations.

Wrong.

Viz says otherwise.

You're using a trash translation that claimed Rebecca was married to her Grand Pa, that's how good their translations are.

User a proper translation.

Who cares ?

So you make baseless comparisons without proof? Understood.

I agree heartedly with the first part, it was the third time I was explaining to you though. So yeah, errors.
(4th time now)

Still wrong, no evidence. Strong will has never resulted in strong Haki, otherwise Luffy would have been stronger than katakuri from the onset. Luffy was in pain from Katakuri's Haki.

So now, you get to choose what a word doesn't mean in OP ?! It's pretty convenient. Love your methods.

Nope, didn't say that if you read properly.

I said context.

Show me where it's stated that the USE of haki doesn't affect stamina, not the absence of it.
I fear I will have to use my HP trump card : "IF there's no evidence, I dismiss it."

I have shown you.

The fact Luffy's running despite no Haki proves it has no effect on stamina. Your problem is you're in denial.

It's called making theories : You take known parts of a hidden truth and you hypothesize something from it

It's not the same thing as spouting nonsense.

You've not said anything consistent, lol.

 

[Geez]

Never said it didn't do that either. It's common knowledge.

All Haki does is make attacks stronger to hurt someone's body.

Then if I follow you, Haki makes the attack so strong that it solidify logias. Right...
When you can't explain the mechanism behind something you pull out a "Common sense" card, or a "Simple logic" card or "context" card . Neat.

Viz says otherwise. User a proper translation.
You're using a trash translation that claimed Rebecca was married to her Grand Pa, that's how good their translations are.

Viz doesn't say anything, it doesn't even translate it and that's exactly the point you refuse to acknowledge : the word Haki conveys multiple meanings just as its definition which is widely seen and used. That's the reason they kept it like that.

Oh and Viz isn't that clean either, they also made translation mistakes. The worst one being ch.234 when Blackbeard mentions Luffy's haki and they didn't even put it. That was maybe one of the first mention of haki in the manga, congratz.

Still wrong, no evidence. Strong will has never resulted in strong Haki, otherwise Luffy would have been stronger than katakuri from the onset. Luffy was in pain from Katakuri's Haki.

Katakuri is known for his mastery of Haki, obviously resulting in a stronger power. The context you chose is invalid.

I have shown you.

The fact Luffy's running despite no Haki proves it has no effect on stamina. Your problem is you're in denial.

You've shown me nothing but the same damn panel which only tells us :
1) Luffy can run without using haki (because in this case it's depleted). And 2) Having no haki doesn't impede Luffy from running.
So : 1) One can use a bit of stamina while not using haki = not what I asked;
2) Having no haki has no effect on stamina = not what I asked.

What I want you to show me : Using haki doesn't use stamina. It's that simple.
You can't possibly not understand the differences between using/not using and using/having.

Again, it's still nearly not as good as an evidence that you, of all people, insist on demanding. It's just bad interpretation.
The worst part is that I didn't care about the possible link between haki and stamina, I was just evoking it.

It's not the same thing as spouting nonsense.
You've not said anything consistent, lol.

It doesn't seem like you can bring anything truly consistent either, that's a shame.

You can't formulate an explanation as to why CoA solidify logia, except because it's common knowledge.
You keep denying alone the different meanings that conveys the word Haki, for your own obscure reasons.
You keep talking about context and evidence, but you can't prove anything either, you just repeat the same thing like it will mean something more one day.
You're just as blind as another as to what are the flaws in your statements.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Katakuri is known for his mastery of Haki, obviously resulting in a stronger power. The context you chose is invalid.

Wrong, it just proves Will has nothing to do with it, lol.

You've deluded yourself into making things up you can't prove.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 13, 2021 ---

What I want you to show me : Using haki doesn't use stamina. It's that simple.

The fact Haki's not affected when it's depleted and Luffy still has stamina proves that, doesn't take a genius to understand that.

If Haki used stamina, he'd be unable to move, lol. Not rocket science.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2021 ---

Then if I follow you, Haki makes the attack so strong that it solidify logias. Right...

Nope, never said that.

Like I said, you're deluding yourself.

There's no explanation why Haki solidifies Logias it juts does, it's a magic power bud.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2021 ---

What I want you to show me : Using haki doesn't use stamina. It's that simple.

This is how bad your logic is...

"I want you to show me that spending money doesn't make you tired"

"X Person spent all his money, but he's still sprinting"

Not sure you understand logic at all if you can't grasp that the fact Luffy's running despite Haki being depleted which shows Stamina has no impact on Haki, lol.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2021 ---

Hell, Oda himself more or less states Luffy not having Haki even in Dressrosa didn't mean he had no stamina to move.

 

[XXGenesis]

There is no theme of breaking wills.

All the Emperors do this.

Big Mom forces you to marry into her family or she'll kill your family.

Kaido forces you to join his crew.

This is just how the Emperors behave, at least the ones that are evil, they use force for everything.

You literally stated something that we all know.

People join the Emperors or fight against them to defeat them and establish their own power.

Hell, even WCI mentions this.

This is not a theme in the "Wano arc". This is everyday in the New World.

Either join, attempt to take down an Emperor, or lose and join.


In fact, Kaido didn't break the wills of Wano. Do you know it's taken them 20 years to full takeover Wano?

Do you know only a year ago, Amigasa Village was still fighting back against Kaido?


So, this supposed theme of breaking wills is not a thing. This is what Emperors do. They recruit strong people so they can become stronger and more influential in the New World.

Why this is even discussed on the Haki thread is beyond me. Kaido forcing people to join his crew or Big Mom doing the same... it's not Haki related, it's just another day in the New World.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 13, 2021 ---

Never said it didn't do that either. It's common knowledge.



Wrong.

Viz says otherwise.

You're using a trash translation that claimed Rebecca was married to her Grand Pa, that's how good their translations are.

User a proper translation.



So you make baseless comparisons without proof? Understood.



Still wrong, no evidence. Strong will has never resulted in strong Haki, otherwise Luffy would have been stronger than katakuri from the onset. Luffy was in pain from Katakuri's Haki.



Nope, didn't say that if you read properly.

I said context.



I have shown you.

The fact Luffy's running despite no Haki proves it has no effect on stamina. Your problem is you're in denial.



It's not the same thing as spouting nonsense.

You've not said anything consistent, lol.

It’s unfortunate if a analysis that is true is not to your liking in maybe it’s full articulation.

I agree with @Geez and the points he makes. Some of it is a detailed perception of something that isn’t fully fleshed out. So he’s probably not 100% correct but his speculation is within the realms of the manga.

Anywho’s I for the 1st time a few days watched Mr.Moji’s 4 Month old Video on CoC being a theme in Wano. He pointed out a lot of clues the story was giving us...many of the things we been debating here....Then bam CoC comes into play...and I’m watching a 4 month old video that saw the clues...but nvm we are wrong you are right

So believe what you want. I’m into debating not trying to force people to believe my perception. I have no problem giving credence to others thoughts and perspectives that may differ from my own that are grounded.

 

[Nie Li]

I didnt remember the panel of Katakuri saying there are things stronger than CoA.

Luffy defeated a guy that could weaponize CoC by exchanging blows using only CoA. lol

 

[kkck]

Only thing I remember katakuri saying is that his armor haki was stronger than luffy's... Which at the time seemed true.

 

[Nie Li]

Only thing I remember katakuri saying is that his armor haki was stronger than luffy's... Which at the time seemed true.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

It’s unfortunate if a analysis that is true is not to your liking in maybe it’s full articulation.

I agree with @Geez and the points he makes. Some of it is a detailed perception of something that isn’t fully fleshed out. So he’s probably not 100% correct but his speculation is within the realms of the manga.

I have no issues with anyone, but no matter who it is, If I don't see evidence to an idea, I won't accept it.

The main thing he's said are these:
Haki is willpower.
Haki affects stamina.

A lot of the evidence if not all contradicts these ideas he's mentioned.

Anywho’s I for the 1st time a few days watched Mr.Moji’s 4 Month old Video on CoC being a theme in Wano. He pointed out a lot of clues the story was giving us...many of the things we been debating here....Then bam CoC comes into play...and I’m watching a 4 month old video that saw the clues...but nvm we are wrong you are right

I'll watch the video, however, I personally think King's Haki wasn't really hinted. There's no evidence that would have shown that King's Haki had physical application. I don't even think it was a theme in the series. We had the generic use of it and that's it as far as I'm aware.

I'm not even saying I'm right. I always say this, it's the evidence that gives us the answers.

So believe what you want. I’m into debating not trying to force people to believe my perception. I have no problem giving credence to others thoughts and perspectives that may differ from my own that are grounded.

I will entertain any idea as long as there's evidence. If there's none, there's no reason to entertain it, and that's not to offend, that's just to be factual.

What would you think if I said "I believe Tsuru is Zoro's father, but she's wearing a disguise and is actually the spirit of Rocks that's been living for 200 years..."... you'd be right to say I'm talking a load of nonsense unless I could provide evidence.

I don't dismiss ideas just for the sake of it, I only look at the evidence.

If I saw evidence that indicates Sanji's actually got King's Haki, whether or not I Iiked Sanji, I'd accept the evidence for what it is and what it's implying. I only go where the evidence takes me.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 14, 2021 ---

Only thing I remember katakuri saying is that his armor haki was stronger than luffy's... Which at the time seemed true.

Would this mean Katakuri was possibly able to utilise some aspect of King's Haki to make his Haki stronger?

Or was he using some level of Advanced Armament?

 

[Nie Li]

It's very clear now in retrospect that Katakuri was using CoC in his attacks to overpower Luffy. His claim of "there are things that surpass armament" when winning the exchange evidences that he wasn't using stronger armament to win it, but something else.

Now, on the Geez-HP discussion, I must say I agree with @Geez, and I do believe that haki affects stamina (it affects it, which is different to them being the same thing or equal in value). But other than that I don't have anything else to add to that discussion.

 

[kkck]

That bit was probably about katakuri changing his arm's mochi's shape into squares though. There is no evidence katakuri could clad his attacks in conqueror haki.

 

[HereNThere]

That bit was probably about katakuri changing his arm's mochi's shape into squares though. There is no evidence katakuri could clad his attacks in conqueror haki.

The dialogue implies it. And in chapter 1009, when Luffy attempts to block Kaidou's mace attack, his hardened hands are shown throbbing in pain like they were when he fought Katakuri.

I wish Oda made it more clear, but Luffy's comment about his realization would make the most sense if he were referring to that particular moment when he was hit with the mace, rather than Thunder Bagua or Ragnarok. Because that was the moment he went purely on the defensive and it didn't work.

 

[Moss Green]

Wrong, it just proves Will has nothing to do with it, lol.

You've deluded yourself into making things up you can't prove.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 13, 2021 ---

The fact Haki's not affected when it's depleted and Luffy still has stamina proves that, doesn't take a genius to understand that.

If Haki used stamina, he'd be unable to move, lol. Not rocket science.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2021 ---

Nope, never said that.

Like I said, you're deluding yourself.

There's no explanation why Haki solidifies Logias it juts does, it's a magic power bud.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2021 ---

This is how bad your logic is...

"I want you to show me that spending money doesn't make you tired"

"X Person spent all his money, but he's still sprinting"

Not sure you understand logic at all if you can't grasp that the fact Luffy's running despite Haki being depleted which shows Stamina has no impact on Haki, lol.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 13, 2021 ---

Hell, Oda himself more or less states Luffy not having Haki even in Dressrosa didn't mean he had no stamina to move.

In the text box you quote it says “he ran into his allies and supporters so he could preserve his energy while they carried him into the next fight. No matter which energy you want to assume Oda is referring to here, haki or stamina, if Oda believes that conserving his energy by not running will help him get his haki back faster haki clearly has an affect on Luffy’s stamina.

Where you’re getting hung up is a belief that anyone is saying the ratio of haki to stamina is 1:1.

It’s your inability to address the context of the individual panels you post that causes all this heartburn. And your insistence that the scientific method applies to a work of fiction but that’s another topic...

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

In the text box you quote it says “he ran into his allies and supporters so he could preserve his energy while they carried him into the next fight. No matter which energy you want to assume Oda is referring to here, haki or stamina, if Oda believes that conserving his energy by not running will help him get his haki back faster haki clearly has an affect on Luffy’s stamina.

Very clever strawman . The argument was not about recovery of Haki, but the use.... lol.

Where you’re getting hung up is a belief that anyone is saying the ratio of haki to stamina is 1:1.

I don't think you're in position to use the word "hung up" when you didn't understand the argument to begin with.

I think you didn't read the argument properly. You're not clear on the context.

maybe you don't need a great deal of stamina to use haki

The argument was that Stamina affects one's ability to use Haki and also that Haki affects stamina.

My point was that if Stamina was necessary to use Haki, Luffy shouldn't have run out of Haki against Katakuri.

And Vice Versa, if using Haki affected stamina, Luffy should be tired from using all Haki. No character in the series has ever showcased such.

We see he has a considerable amount of Stamina as he's running away from Katakuri implying Stamina and Haki have no relation with the other.

Recovery of Haki is a completely different argument, not sure why you're pulling strawmen, lol.

Again, it's just common sense from a logical stand point. If Haki were affected by stamina, changes in stamina would determine ability to use Haki.

It’s your inability to address the context of the individual panels you post that causes all this heartburn. And your insistence that the scientific method applies to a work of fiction but that’s another topic...

Logic works whether in fiction or not.

A person gets cuffed in sea stone and loses energy The Manga established that DF users lose energy once in contact with seastone. We use logic (or you can call it scientific methodology) to put 2 and 2 together to determine that said person must be a DF user.

So, your argument here is bad, it makes no sense. Logic is used in everything.

In the text box you quote it says “he ran into his allies and supporters so he could preserve his energy while they carried him into the next fight. No matter which energy you want to assume Oda is referring to here, haki or stamina, if Oda believes that conserving his energy by not running will help him get his haki back faster haki clearly has an affect on Luffy’s stamina.

To get to this new argument of yours regarding needing to conserve energy to restore Haki, easily debunked.

Luffy said he needed 10 minutes to run around to escape Joker, and he'd recover his Haki meaning he didn't need to rest to recover Haki, he simply needed time.

He at no point even said he needs 10 minutes to rest to recover it.

Stamina has absolutely no effect on Haki, all the evidence indicates that, lol.

Haki and Stamina are completely distinct entities that have no direct effects on the other.

 

[kkck]

The dialogue implies it. And in chapter 1009, when Luffy attempts to block Kaidou's mace attack, his hardened hands are shown throbbing in pain like they were when he fought Katakuri.

I wish Oda made it more clear, but Luffy's comment about his realization would make the most sense if he were referring to that particular moment when he was hit with the mace, rather than Thunder Bagua or Ragnarok. Because that was the moment he went purely on the defensive and it didn't work.

When katakuri says that he is using his squared shape mochi. It makes by far more sense that katakuri would be refering to that rather than conqueror's haki. Add to that, conqueror haki cladding allowed luffy to more or less level the playing field with fucking kaido. That's not a small thing by any means. If katakuri had had conqueror haki cladding luffy would simply not have been able to overcome him.

 

[HereNThere]

When katakuri says that he is using his squared shape mochi. It makes by far more sense that katakuri would be refering to that rather than conqueror's haki. Add to that, conqueror haki cladding allowed luffy to more or less level the playing field with fucking kaido. That's not a small thing by any means. If katakuri had had conqueror haki cladding luffy would simply not have been able to overcome him.

The context of his words have him referring to levels of haki in particular though, not his devil fruit. The context of the scene is his Squared Mochi technique, which seemingly uses a higher level of armament than before, overcoming Luffy's own Armament, causing Luffy pain. Juxtaposed with Kaido hitting Luffy with his mace and Luffy having the same reaction, it seems pretty hard to say that it was just Square Mochi, somehow, being specially able to overcome Luffy's haki.

Luffy shouldn't have been able to beat Katakuri with Future Sight either, yet here we are. Luffy managed to power through. Nevermind the fact that the gap between Luffy and Katakuri wasn't as large as the gap between Luffy and Kaido. Superior toolset doesn't necessarily mean that one doesn't stand a chance. If that was the case, then Luffy should've been smashed by the Boa Sisters on Kuja Island since they knew Wano's form of advanced haki and Luffy had no mastery of it at all.