Did I say that Ban has energy beams? No. We're talking about how both can steal magic around them, but instead of simply buffing himself with energy like Ban does, LANCE can buff things around him, like weapons or just physical matter. As @Yakkun explained, it's similar to Mael's counter and how it's opposite in nature to Mel's full counter.
I am saying that considering the way the two Magics work, I don't believe that Hazy Moon is similar to Snatch. Also, "buffing" can be done via Enchant Magic and in general any kind of weapons can be buffed via Magic so it wouldn't be anything special. Anything you mentioned in your post, Percival can do too and so can many others.
When drawing a parallel between two things, they need to have something in common. It doesn't mean they have to be identical in every point. Hazy Moon and Snatch are similar in that they absorb power, but the power is then distributed differently. There's enough differentiation between the 2 abilities that it doesn't feel like a cheap copy of Snatch, on the contrary. Imo it could be a better, more versatile ability.
You misunderstand. I wasn't saying that Hazy Moon is similar to Hyperion Constitution, but that Lancelot's abnormal physical strength could be explained by something like that as a separate trait he inherited from Ban. Associating homing missiles and barriers with Snatch or a similar ability seems like a stretch to me. The core concept of Snatch revolves around stealing (and later gifting) things, both physical objects as well as a person's strength. There's no relation between that and being able to fire off lasers or to mold energy into weapons. You say that I'm losing sight of the big picture by focusing on the details, but I'd argue you're ignoring the details that go against the picture you want to draw. You're trying to get the evidence to fit a predetermined conclusion rather than drawing conclusions from the evidence. Also note what I mentioned in my previous post about Shining Road being written as "Guidance of the Moon". I don't know how the moon is supposed to guide an attack to its target down on Earth, especially during the day, but whatever is going on there seems to be more fantastical than control over subatomic particles.
It's not time related, you're just associating it with time because that's the first application that was shown. The way the Infinity works is established in Merlin's brief chat with Greyroad in chapter 191. Merlin brings up her ability to stop her own time as just a random spell she knows. Greyroad says that twisting the laws of the world takes a lot of magic to cast and notes that it's impossible to keep such a demanding spell going for very long, to which Merlin explains that her Infinity requires her to only invoke a spell once in order to keep it going until she herself cancels it. She then brings up how she can do this with fire, ice and even time magic. This does not make Infinity related to fire, ice or time, those are just examples of the kind of spells she can apply it to. The function of Infinity is to remove the upkeep cost of any spell that Merlin casts. It has never been described as an application of time magic because that's not what it is. It's also worth noting that Greyroad is not surprised by the idea of Merlin manipulating time when it's first brought up, but when Merlin explains how Infinity works Greyroad is among those calling it foul play. Infinity goes way beyond time magic and is more like some kind of cheat code in a video game.
The thing is that you are trying to connect Hazy Moon to Snatch so hard because you know Lancelot is Ban's son but they aren't similar at all. See Sunshine and Dawn, it's obvious that despite their differences, they are connected. It's not the same for Snatch and Hazy Moon. The two abilities are too different. The name doesn't fit Ban's "Thief theme". Lancelot fights very differently from his father.When drawing a parallel between two things, they need to have something in common. It doesn't mean they have to be identical in every point. Hazy Moon and Snatch are similar in that they absorb power, but the power is then distributed differently. There's enough differentiation between the 2 abilities that it doesn't feel like a cheap copy of Snatch, on the contrary. Imo it could be a better, more versatile ability.
Well if we're going to judge abilities in terms of uniqueness, then a lot of abilities would be considered trash, even the most powerful ones
Even Tristan's could be trash based on the fact he's half goddess half demon, and we've already seen those powers ad nauseam.
I think what a lot of people fail to grasp is that it's not about how unique or powerful an ability is, but really how the user can get the most out of it, and the multiple applications he has for it. Even seemingly "weak" abilities like Donny's turned out to be quite amazing once he figured out how to use it.
And still Ban needed his sacred treasure in order to bring the most out of his ability in the final arc.
How is it not time related? You said it yourself, she can keep a spell active forever, so it affects the duration of the spell. Her tornado was named Endless Whirl. She can apply an infinite Enchant on spells too.
I'm not trying "hard" to connect it because the clues are there... Of course I could be wrong, but at the end of the day we're here to discuss the abilities and what they could be. And it's not like we've already seen characters share or inherit the same ability, or even abilities that are passed down from master to disciple like Full Counter. Yet somehow Lance having an ability that is remotely similar (but still different) to his father's is too much...
Infinity is not time related because the magic doesn't have anything to do with time. You're focusing on the duration but that's not what Infinity affects and there's nothing special about a long duration anyway. The DK and SD kept their curses active on their kids for thousands of years no problem, so why would both of them be so eager to recruit Merlin to their respective sides if long-lasting spells were all she had to offer them? Merlin keeping her spells going forever is not about the duration, but the upkeep cost. I summarized the explanation she gave for her magic in my previous post but you seem to have missed something so I'll just be more thorough and include the relevant pages here:
I think what Vortigern said is true, and the evidence is quite simple. If "Infinity" itself is time-based as you say, then Merlin wouldn't need to enchant it on a third-party spell to stop time on her body, instead, she would have just casted "Infinity" directly on her and that's it.
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I'm really curious to know if your confidence here has any ground beneath it. What have we seen so far from all the techniques used by Tristan, that would seem like "Nova at play?"
The naming scheme I mentioned in the post you quoted is the clearest piece of evidence we have. Gawain, Lancelot and Tristan symbolize the sun, the moon and the stars respectively, and this celestial theme is present in their magics. Gawain's Dawn relates to the sun and we can observe this in attacks such as Passionate Sun and Sunshine Burst. Lancelot's Hazy Moon has moon right there in the name and we see this manifest in Shining Road, which at first glance doesn't seem like a fit but is actually written as Guidance of the Moon in Japanese. Tristan's Nova is based around stars and we see him use techniques such as Healing Star and Falling Star. There's an obvious pattern here. If Gawain's sun techniques are the product of Dawn and Lancelot's moon technique is the product of Hazy Moon, then logically Tristan's star techniques would be the product of Nova. Of course we know that the two star examples I mentioned are formed out of the light magic of Ark, which suggests that Nova is something that Tristan can combine with his other techniques, similar to something like Merlin's Infinity.
Absorption alone doesn't explain things like Lancelot firing off energy beams or creating weapons so Lancelot's magic is more likely to be an ability to manipulate energy in broader sense with many different applications. As for Jericho's strength, that seems to have largely been the product of the holy knights getting stronger in general as you say. The most we can say about Jericho specifically is that she was able to defeat Guila even though the two used to be equal, but this is still not even close to the huge leap in power that Lancelot experienced. Also I don't think numerical power levels really mean anything anymore. Nakaba has so far only mentioned them once in the sequel and that was in a Q&A like two years ago. I get the impression he's trying to move away from that system entirely.
Yeah, all of the main characters having very diverse skill-sets seems to be the goal. I'm curious about how Nakaba plans to handle this stuff in the context of the new magic type system. The fact that Percival doesn't have any other abilities aside from his Hope, in contrast to the other KotA who possess things like spells and racial magic, gives me the impression that his hero-type magic is meant to allow him to keep up with the others when it comes to versatility. This suggests that hero-type magic will likely remain unique to him, at least when it comes to the main characters. Dawn is a pretty simple ability that has properties of destruction- and enchantment-type magics so that fits the bill. Nova's properties are still nebulous, no pun intended, so there's not much that can be said about that. Hazy Moon could be a problem as Lancelot has already showcased quite a wide range of different techniques, although some of them don't fit neatly into any of the established magic types, which gives Nakaba a bit of wiggle room. At the very least there's some destruction-type in there along with enchantment-type, perhaps also shifting-type depending on how his barrier and energy weapons work.
The fact that Infinity allows her to cast a spell only once is one of its advantages yes. But it still makes her Spells better in many ways. It's extremely versatile. Endless. Whirl was revealed after Infinity. To me it seems obvious that she was using Infinity on it. I never said that long lasting spells were all she had to offer.Infinity is not time related because the magic doesn't have anything to do with time. You're focusing on the duration but that's not what Infinity affects and there's nothing special about a long duration anyway. The DK and SD kept their curses active on their kids for thousands of years no problem, so why would both of them be so eager to recruit Merlin to their respective sides if long-lasting spells were all she had to offer them? Merlin keeping her spells going forever is not about the duration, but the upkeep cost. I summarized the explanation she gave for her magic in my previous post but you seem to have missed something so I'll just be more thorough and include the relevant pages here:
Greyroad says that manipulating time takes an enormous amount of magic (which by the way also confirms Infinity doesn't affect time because that would make it very costly to use) and then adds that keeping it up for long like Merlin mentioned would be impossible due to how much magic would be needed for that. Note that Greyroad sees nothing special about the idea of Merlin casting a spell that essentially has a permanent duration, the only thing she takes issue with is the amount of magic energy required to do that. Merlin then replies to Greyroad's statement by explaining that Infinity allows her to just cast a spell once and then she can keep it going until she cancels it. That is how she avoids the enormous magic cost of keeping her time stopped. Infinity doesn't affect a spell's duration, that's something Merlin does herself, Infinity simply removes the upkeep cost so that she can set whatever duration she wants without having to worry about running out of magic energy. Merlin's explanation and the details Greyroad chooses to highlight make it very clear that Infinity affects the cost of keeping a spell going, not its duration. The duration of spells is something mages can freely set themselves as long as they have enough magic to power those spells. Merlin only has to cast a spell once and after that her ability essentially supplies it with infinite energy, hence the name Infinity. This is why other characters keep calling the ability cheating and why the deities were so interested in her, because wielding infinite energy is just fundamentally broken in a way that basically no other ability is. This goes way beyond merely extending a spell's duration. In case you're somehow not convinced yet, Merlin having access to an endless supply of magic was even directly stated by Chandler:
You're missing the whole point of Merlin's ability and why it's so special when you talk about time and duration. Infinity has nothing to do with that stuff. You bring up Endless Whirl for some reason but that's just a random wind magic spell, in fact there's no indication that Merlin even used Infinity on it given that it didn't need to be powered for very long. Her ability to apply an Infinity enchant on spells also does nothing to support the idea that Infinity is time related given that the enchantment simply amplifies a spell's power rather than extending its duration. How exactly would a time magic enchant make a spell stronger? Instead it can easily be understood as Infinity supplying the spell with more energy to boost its power. That's why Merlin's Exterminate Ray suddenly surpassed Chandler's in size despite his completely eclipsing hers mere moments earlier. Infinity has to do with energy manipulation, it is not related to time in any way.
I am not exactly saying that it's "Time-based" as in time element in a RPG or something. I am saying that it affects time. She used the time spell then applied Infinity on it. So her time spell is active forever.
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No one is really lacking in the versatility department. In fact, Tristan, even if he had no Magic and Ark alone, he wouldn't have issues. He can attack and heal. Ark is that versatile by itself. Goddess Healing unlike PoD Healing has no drawbacks.
As far as I can remember the only effects of Infinity that Merlin has demonstrated are the two I mentioned, i.e. removing the need to supply any magic power to her spells which allows her to keep them going for as long as she likes for free, and using Infinity as an enchant to boost the power of a spell. On that note, we've seen Infinity being applied to other spells before and it never changed the name of the spell, which means that Endless Whirl is just the name of the spell itself rather than an indication that Infinity had been applied to it. If no other spells utilizing Infinity changed its name to 'Endless X' then why would such a name be an indication of Infinity being used with a spell? There's no pattern here.
Again, it's established in the scene with Greyroad that keeping a spell going is merely a matter of supplying it with enough magic, i.e. once the magic energy supplied by the caster runs out the spell stops working. The duration of a spell can be set arbitrarily as long as you meet that upkeep requirement, you don't need time magic to increase the duration. Merlin's spells last forever because Infinity supplies them with endless magic, not because Infinity sets their duration to permanent or something along those lines. What she did with Exterminate Ray was simply her using Infinity as an enchant to feed the spell with more magic in order to overpower Chandler's attack. If I understood it correctly, your explanation seems to be that she was repeatedly casting the same spell while keeping the previous iterations going in order to stack them on top of one another, but the problem with this idea is that the effect on her enchantment was instantaneous. We know she's not that fast at casting her spells because Merlin herself mentioned in the fight against the demon masters that she used the time she was dodging Ominous Nebula to set up her four spell combo attack. She can't just whip out a dozen spells in an instant.
The thing is that Infinity is not affecting time itself but merely the spell that affects time. There's a layer of separation there. Compare to something like Meliodas using his Full Counter on a fireball launched at him. Is Full Counter affecting fire in general or merely the fireball attack? Both of these abilities are based around a simple principle; Full Counter reflects magical attacks while Infinity alters spells that Merlin casts. Anything that fits those criteria is fair game, though it's worth noting that Full Counter requires a weapon and the right timing in order to activate. The abilities themselves are not related to any specific use cases we've seen.
We're largely on the same page when it comes to what Nova does, although I would welcome some non-combat related applications as well. Lancelot can use his heart reading in various situations and his transformations could be useful for things like espionage. Gawain can of course learn all kinds of spells and even Percival's magic has uses outside of combat since his golems can seemingly detect magical objects and give him information about some topics he himself doesn't know about. Tristan is only really useful in a fight or in the aftermath if someone needs healing. The only notable technique of his outside of that is Saint Coat which is meant for very spefic circumstances. It would be nice if he could also utilize his magic in various situations like the others, but that depends on what exactly is going on with Nova. If it's some kind of an enchantment thing like it seems to be so far then it might be difficult to come up with more applications for it. I guess we'll know more once Nakaba actually gets around to explaining its properties, which could very well happen in the upcoming festival since Tristan is bound to have a major role in it.
Hot damn, I KNEW IT! I knew it wasn't specifically tailored only for Percival. I bet you the others all are hero types as well. Posted this last year in November in the Magic Power Types thread.The official translations have been updated up to 104. Hazy Moon is a Hero Type.
Back when the chapter was released I think it was worded differently.
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Oh, the translation wasn't quite well worded. The raws explicitly mention Lance having Hero-type magic.Back when the chapter was released I think it was worded differently.
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Here is the other translation:
I don't know where you got that from, cuz what Nakaba said is quite clear:
This means that, in principle, Lancelot doesn't do something genuine fairies can't while transforming. It's categorically the same transformation, albeit on a higher level. For instance, if an genuine Fairy transforms in to a giant, let's say he/she can use around 25% of that shape's physical strength, whereas Lancelot can use up to 75% or more of the transformed shape.
