Discussion Hunter x Hunter Hangout [00]

[Sachsenhesse]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

well netero is fucked, but also the king the zero kannon let loose netero some "weight" if i see the last pic correctly netero now has lost all his weight so his final attack is about to start

 

[Dr. Vegapunk]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

the world of HxH is incredibly huge, perhaps a warning from Netero to the king, telling him that there are far stronger opponents, I mean after all, Neteros Nen Power was solely power, there are a variety of tricks you can do with Nen. Neteros however was useless, seeing as Meruem(King) is almost indestructable.

However I think Netero might end up sacrificing himself with some UBER power. Stalemate as dual-loss rules (Something that Meruem was not expecting)

 

[Goral]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

Explanation that Meruem could defeat Netero because of the ability of precognition which he gained playing go is the most ludicrous explanation Togashi ever came up with. That doesn't change the fact I really liked this chapter (even though the whole arc with ants is shitty compared to previous ones) and Netero simply destroys everyone. HxH is the best shounen that's still continuing (along with Gintama). /IMO

I wonder though what is Ryodan doing and how would Hisoka fare against the king. I'm a bit surprised we haven't seen them moving yet, after all bugs are a threat to them also.

 

[chikkychappy]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

Explanation that Meruem could defeat Netero because of the ability of precognition which he gained playing go is the most ludicrous explanation Togashi ever came up with. That doesn't change the fact I really liked this chapter (even though the whole arc with ants is shitty compared to previous ones) and Netero simply destroys everyone. HxH is the best shounen that's still continuing (along with Gintama). /IMO

what's so ridiculous about it? i think it's perfect. gun-gi has countless combination, so are netero's palms. but each person has a "flow" a certain "character", that manifests whether they are playing gun-gi or fighting with nen or whatever else. by playing gun-gi, the king has been able to practice with determining a human's "flow", and applied it perfectly against netero. it's a form of precognition that finds a universal flow from particular attacks and from there try to determine what's going to happen next; it's not clairvoyance like palm's. i think it's amazing.

 

[Pavitre]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

he'll make a zone for the humans to safely live in?

You stupid ant you should make a zone for yourself and your ugly species to live in, and not the other way around, on 2nd thought, get your ass to an island which isnt on any world map, so we can perm forget about you. shit there and live there

he'll select specific human as food sources?

go piss on yourself cause i'll fry your species like kabab and then eat them like gravy chicken

okay just had to get that out of the system

okay I was wrong to think this ant was changing for the better, these statements only point to the most obvious that he's still evil in a less ruthless way, but still an enemy of humanity

I told everyone before too netero was going to lose. The only person to ever defeat him will be Gon with Killua. netero was destined to lose as soon as it was evident that none of his attacks were working on him and now he's become really frail physically.

Juat to clear things out, I'm not bashing Netero but even he was pretty much thinking that he wouldn't come out of it alive unless his zero cannon worked on Ant, unfortunately he didnt.

This Ant is damn powerful, now the one other strong person left is that Killua's grand grandfather assassin guy(dont remember his name) and a powerful upgraded version of gon and killua

 

[ibra87]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

Killua's grandfather won't likely return. He's already shown that after he does what he's paid for he will go away.

And there are still other strong characters around who maybe will make a cameo. I don't see Gon at any level near the president, since that would put him in the top level with little place to grow and without huge main character growth I don't see the manga going on for too long.

 

[Pavitre]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

Killua's grandfather won't likely return. He's already shown that after he does what he's paid for he will go away.

And there are still other strong characters around who maybe will make a cameo. I don't see Gon at any level near the president, since that would put him in the top level with little place to grow and without huge main character growth I don't see the manga going on for too long.

I'm not talking about his grandfather lol he wouldnt stand a chance against Ant as far as he's shown. The one I;m talking about is the oldest assassin in that family, maha goldyck, he was hinted to be stronger than netero, not sure if he'll appear in ful blown battle scenario, still I hope for his appearance.

And yes I already said about Gon and killua getting themselves far stronger than what they are now, but since he's gonna be the one to defeat Ant so something big is gonna happen to both of them now

 

[ameya730]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

this chapter was fanstastic from the fighting point of view but i was beyond godlike from the philosophy point of view.

for me the most fascinating part of the chapter were the statements of the king...

he would build a special zone only for humans
he would select specific humans amongst the rest as food sources

most of the people would consider the king to be evil based upon these words of his because it seems inhuman, almost barbaric. the mangaka has essentially made the king into a being who is superior to the humans in all aspect but thinks as humans do. even in real life have we not built special zones for animals to live in forever (zoo and sanctuaries). have we not selected specific animals as food sources.

i hope the king does not die the next chapter mainly because i see him becoming more and more human which is kinda ironic because he considers humans as worthless except for a select few.

 

[Navid.]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

Really enjoyed this chapter, I like how Togashi can create some very powerful imagery with his line art... Also agree with Ameya's thoughts about the King and how his reasoning to some extent reflects that of humans in relation to species thought to be 'lower' then themselves.

This is the kind of stuff that puts HxH among my top mangas.

 

[Goral]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

what's so ridiculous about it? i think it's perfect. gun-gi has countless combination, so are netero's palms. but each person has a "flow" a certain "character", that manifests whether they are playing gun-gi or fighting with nen or whatever else. by playing gun-gi, the king has been able to practice with determining a human's "flow", and applied it perfectly against netero. it's a form of precognition that finds a universal flow from particular attacks and from there try to determine what's going to happen next; it's not clairvoyance like palm's. i think it's amazing.

First of all gun-gi is a ridiculous game. A game that's supposed to be more complex than go and yet where both players would have the same chances to win is really hard to create. That's just Togashi's imagination. Second of all a game and a real fight are completely different things. Complex game can at best increase someone's strategic insight (although in the end it's just a game and in real battle they would most probably lose to experienced tactician that didn't play go/chess but coordinated many battles) but in real fight it wouldn't too much good because a fight and a game are completely different matters. Besides, in a fight there are several additional factors like randomness for example. It would suffice that Netero farted and that would already screw Meruem's calculations up. He could kick a stone towards king and it would also change the situation again.
Reading human's "flow" thanks to some game is a ridiculous concept. Firstly, even chess-masters can't read opponent's moves far ahead (at the end game they can but only because the number of reasonable moves decreases significantly). If they can then only because someone uses forceful variants when for every move there are only one or two logical responses. One of the greatest chessmasters of all time Richard Réti when asked how far ahead can he foresee moves ahead he said: one. And he was the chess player that set the world record for blindfold chess with twenty-nine games played simultaneously. He won twenty-one of these, drew six, and only lost two.
Secondly, there is no such thing as universal flow. Every attack is distinct and since as you said yourself Netero's palms had countless combinations he would not be able to discern attack. That's just a convenience that Togashi created to make king super strong. That's why I don't like this arc. Suddenly some ants appeared and in a moment they surpassed humans in every aspect. If that was the case I would say that all humans must die since some other beings evolved further than them. King's ability to learn everything and be super strong is plainly annoying to me. And he's the worst big boss I've ever seen in any manga. While Netero was a pure badass and totally awesome the bug was pathetic. "I'm all mighty and you can't defeat me, I will kill you in 5 seconds". Meh.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

First of all gun-gi is a ridiculous game. A game that's supposed to be more complex than go and yet where both players would have the same chances to win is really hard to create. That's just Togashi's imagination. Second of all a game and a real fight are completely different things. Complex game can at best increase someone's strategic insight (although in the end it's just a game and in real battle they would most probably lose to experienced tactician that didn't play go/chess but coordinated many battles) but in real fight it wouldn't too much good because a fight and a game are completely different matters

I have to stop you here and say that as a fencer, that is completely wrong. Well, not completely. I mean we don't shoot lightning bolts in fencing or anything. But despite it being a sword fight, your objective 100% of the time isn't to simply beat your opponent. If you simply try to outdo him physically, you'll lose. You have to do outsmart your opponent, or else you are going to lose. It's all about thinking "if I attack here, he is going to defend here, then attack here, then I'll defend here...This will lead to...which will lead to..."

So, while I can't say that it applies to this situation with 100% accuracy, I can guarantee you that the better you are at chess and games like that, the easier it will be for you to become a good fencer.

 

[Pavitre]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

yea I agree that to show netero at full power and then get defeated by some Ant who suddenly emerged claiming to be a multi hybrid of lives and not get damaged by any of neteros' attacks, and that too without him using any special moves of his own, that is just ridiculous, well atleast he's not like aizen, he did get torn in the last attack hehe, Aizen sama is untouchable

Anyway regarding the above posts, you cant master an intellectual game and then master fighting as well, UNLESS you'v got the physical capabilities to carry your strategies out. And in the case of the Ant well he's got plenty in that area so not surprised that he's very smart at fighting too. This trend of being good at intellectual game and then being good at fighting strategy too has been shown in a few other mangas as well, so no surprise their

but seriously that ant is really tough

 

[Goral]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

(...) It's all about thinking "if I attack here, he is going to defend here, then attack here, then I'll defend here...This will lead to...which will lead to..."

Yeah, and how accurate is your guessing? Because it's guessing. In this sport there are no absolute dominators and even the best are defeated eventually, i.e. even if someone is agile enough and has outstanding reflexes and is good at chess he will still not be able to always win. King can guess with 100% accuracy which is ludicrous.

So, while I can't say that it applies to this situation with 100% accuracy, I can guarantee you that the better you are at chess and games like that, the easier it will be for you to become a good fencer.

If it was like that chess-masters would also dominate in fencing (at least some of them).
It's more like jan-ken-pon.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

Yeah, and how accurate is your guessing? Because it's guessing. In this sport there are no absolute dominators and even the best are defeated eventually, i.e. even if someone is agile enough and has outstanding reflexes and is good at chess he will still not be able to always win. King can guess with 100% accuracy which is ludicrous.

It's not guessing. Not even remotely close to guessing. You are not simply predicting, you are inducing your opponent to do something.
In fencing the accuracy of your "prediction" simply depends on the difference between your strategy level and your opponent's. An olympic fencer should get close to 100% on someone on my level, for example.

If it was like that chess-masters would also dominate in fencing (at least some of them).
It's more like jan-ken-pon.

No. Stop. Just stop. Don't compare fencing to jan ken pon. Just don't. That's about the most erroneous statement you could possibly make. That is like comparing soccer to dodge-ball.
Also, there are some famous chess-masters that are quite the fencers, for the record. Though since most famous chessmasters are anything but in a good physical form, it's not a relevant number.

It has been called "physical chess" by many great fencers, and even olympic fencers agree with that statement.

http://newsinfo.iu.edu/web/page/normal/5242.html

"I like the fact that you do not have to have tremendous natural ability to excel at fencing. Athleticism doesn't hurt, but the person who has better technique and strategy is usually going to win,"

http://thegauntlet.ca/story/12383

"People call it physical chess," says Epic Fencing Club president and University of Calgary student Brita Goldie. "It's very pre-planned. It's like, 'I'll do this and they'll do that and then I'll do this to counter it.' Before you do anything, especially in epeé, you figure out what you're going to do and what the other person's going to do in return."

Calling fencing physical chess is a common metaphor for those who practice fencing. I myself use it quite a lot, though I also like the term "physical poker" since I have a particular liking for bluffing that I can do moves that I most certainly am not even remotely close to being apt to attempting.

Note that the physical aspect still remains. You have to be at least decent physically to win in fencing. However, being able at planning and even being good at a mere game like chess certainly helps you to predict the flow of the battle, and I'm talking from experience. I'm sure you must have some experience with chess or go to hate the fictional game here, and that's fine. But please don't underestimate fencing and compare it to simple guessing.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

not only that, but the king was beginning to grasp "flows" before playing with the gungi girl- he was just doing it with people much less good.

Also, keep in mind the king, during the last chapter, took over a thousand hits to be able to cut Netero's arm.

That's not "100%", that's "forcing Netero to show his preferences till he can reasonably have a chance at hitting him." and then doing it over and over again until it succeeds.

 

[chikkychappy]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

First of all gun-gi is a ridiculous game. A game that's supposed to be more complex than go and yet where both players would have the same chances to win is really hard to create. That's just Togashi's imagination. Second of all a game and a real fight are completely different things. Complex game can at best increase someone's strategic insight (although in the end it's just a game and in real battle they would most probably lose to experienced tactician that didn't play go/chess but coordinated many battles) but in real fight it wouldn't too much good because a fight and a game are completely different matters. Besides, in a fight there are several additional factors like randomness for example. It would suffice that Netero farted and that would already screw Meruem's calculations up. He could kick a stone towards king and it would also change the situation again.
Reading human's "flow" thanks to some game is a ridiculous concept. Firstly, even chess-masters can't read opponent's moves far ahead (at the end game they can but only because the number of reasonable moves decreases significantly). If they can then only because someone uses forceful variants when for every move there are only one or two logical responses. One of the greatest chessmasters of all time Richard Réti when asked how far ahead can he foresee moves ahead he said: one. And he was the chess player that set the world record for blindfold chess with twenty-nine games played simultaneously. He won twenty-one of these, drew six, and only lost two.
Secondly, there is no such thing as universal flow. Every attack is distinct and since as you said yourself Netero's palms had countless combinations he would not be able to discern attack. That's just a convenience that Togashi created to make king super strong. That's why I don't like this arc. Suddenly some ants appeared and in a moment they surpassed humans in every aspect. If that was the case I would say that all humans must die since some other beings evolved further than them. King's ability to learn everything and be super strong is plainly annoying to me. And he's the worst big boss I've ever seen in any manga. While Netero was a pure badass and totally awesome the bug was pathetic. "I'm all mighty and you can't defeat me, I will kill you in 5 seconds". Meh.

The thing is, you're taking it seriously. You probably have chess or go background to back you up, and I understand why you have more insight than the average reader, but you're missing the point . So Gun-gi is unrealistic, so what? This is a fictional work, sometimes you have to take some things as a given. For example, do you really think that from the biological point of view this whole chimera evolution is realistic? Don't you think that this whole "human self" being strong is just romanticizing the notion or uniqueness of being human? Do you really think that biologically-chemically, it's possible for chopped human brain cells are able to be so strong as to affect and create a self to the otherwise selfless ants?

You see, you can make any questions on the realism of many aspects Togashi (and any writer to fiction in general) create or incorporates, and it's fine to acknowledge them, but if you see these as a weak point and keep criticizing them outside the context of the story then you're missing the point. Just take them as a given, in the same way that you take superman's and spiderman's abilities as a given regardless of whether or not their feats are even physically possible or not, and then enjoy the rest of the ride.

 

[kkck]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

Will end? no more hunter x hunter? i didnt get....

Normally after a hiatus only one volume will be released before the next hiatus. 2 more chapters make a volume. Nothing has been confirmed yet but given the pattern it is very possible another hiatus will start within the next two chapters. I really hope not though, the last chapters have been awesome.

 

[Goral]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

It's not guessing. Not even remotely close to guessing. You are not simply predicting, you are inducing your opponent to do something.
In fencing the accuracy of your "prediction" simply depends on the difference between your strategy level and your opponent's. An olympic fencer should get close to 100% on someone on my level, for example.

No shit Sherlock. Inducing someone to do sth and predicting sth are two completely different things. Of course that action results in reaction from the opponent. That applies to many things. If someone attacks you with a left hook boxer goes to his left and tries to dodge/block it. If I use your reasoning every one of us is predicting, lol.
The area where fencers fight in competitions is very limited and the rules limit also the moves you can make. So of course you will roughly know which body parts you have to defend. And if someone attacks you below you try parrying it by making similar move. But there is no prediction in here. Like I said, it's rock, papers, scissors, i.e. guessing with a bit of thinking and reflexes. Also, in real fight once you stab someone you've practically won because there is no second chance or stopping further attacks and the injured person becomes weaker with every second. And please, give me examples of chess-masters that had noticeable successes in fencing.
And of course that fencers would prefer to think that fencing is a complicated discipline where you have to think a lot. As do boxers and other sportsman. But just because they say so doesn't mean that it is so. Feints are common in many martial arts but what does it have to do with predicting? Or strategy? These are schematic and limited moves which are very limited but it suffices to win since you can't always guess right or react in time. In the end the fastest and strongest one wins and strategy is only on a basic level.

@chikkychappy
I was perfectly aware of the things you've said. I know we have many unrealistic laws in HxH. I just don't like this particular explanation. You've asked why I think that this was the most ridiculous idea Togashi ever came up with and I answered. He tried to make king's ability believable by referring to real life (in this case - strategic game as a simulation of a fight) and that's what I didn't like. HxH is better without stupid explanations. The same goes for Star Wars, where the "physics" of force was explained. Such stories don't need it and unless it's really reasonable and consistent with the world the author created it only makes things worse.
The appearance of the ants was not consistent with the Togashi's world. They've emerged out of the blue and became the strongest beings in seconds. That's what I call bad writing.

Don't get me wrong, I still love Hunter X Hunter and even the bug arc isn't that bad compared to other shounens. But Togashi can do much better than that.

 

[Tombadgerlock]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

And of course that fencers would prefer to think that fencing is a complicated discipline where you have to think a lot. As do boxers and other sportsman. But just because they say so doesn't mean that it is so. Feints are common in many martial arts but what does it have to do with predicting? Or strategy? These are schematic and limited moves which are very limited but it suffices to win since you can't always guess right or react in time. In the end the fastest and strongest one wins and strategy is only on a basic level.

the problem is that in most sports, "the fastest" is like, 1% faster. So if he begins his movement in the wrogn direction?

It's over.

That's why you have to predict, and you have to 'force' your opponents into a pattern.

That's what the king did.

He got slapped aside a thousand time in the last chapter, but he managed to wait and provoke a "almost-pattern" where he could slip by.

That makes sense.

What you are saying? it doesn't.

And, once again: it's not 100% prediction rated, as he did get slapped around a thousand times in the last chapter alone just to hit netero once.

 

[chikkychappy]

Re: Hunter x Hunter by Togashi Yoshihiro

@chikkychappy
I was perfectly aware of the things you've said. I know we have many unrealistic laws in HxH. I just don't like this particular explanation. You've asked why I think that this was the most ridiculous idea Togashi ever came up with and I answered.

By your own admission, it is subjective. For some reason it bothers you, but 95%+ of fans are fine with it. Now let's leave it at that and not act like this opinion is objective.

He tried to make king's ability believable by referring to real life (in this case - strategic game as a simulation of a fight) and that's what I didn't like. HxH is better without stupid explanations. The same goes for Star Wars, where the "physics" of force was explained. Such stories don't need it and unless it's really reasonable and consistent with the world the author created it only makes things worse.

Again, this is your opinion and is obviously not an objective shortcoming on the part of HxH (or Star Wars for that matter). Personally, I do not mind. As long as the author is not making any explicit claim that what he's saying is consistent with reality, then I'll take it. After all, what we know about "reality" is ever so contingent and ever-changing. I won't hold it against the author if he wants to enrich his work using explanations that, while not consistent with this ever-changing reality as we know it, nevertheless was written well and makes sense within the context of the story. And since I have long accepted superhuman feats in HxH, this whole idea of finding the "flow" and the like feels like a natural extension.

This is why, when I tried to explain why I like Togashi's explanation, I was referring to the context of the story and made no references to reality, while your explanation mostly consist of things that lie outside the context of the work. And it's fine, really, that's what you want to do, there's no problem with that. Just acknowledge that, chances are, it's just you.

The appearance of the ants was not consistent with the Togashi's world. They've emerged out of the blue and became the strongest beings in seconds. That's what I call bad writing.

I don't like this arc as well, it's my least favorite arc along with GI, and I also think that this arc came out of nowhere. But I've gotten over this for the most part; while it bugs me from time to time I try to just enjoy the other things Togashi laid in store.