Laxus vs Gray


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Sinister Spirit

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Gray did stalemate END Natsu though. During their fight he went toe-to-toe with Natsu in striking strength. He was able to knock Natsu down. and pushed him back. Vice-versa happened to him. If you want to use Pokémon-theory, then fire is super effective against ice. In FT, it is actually canon that ice's weakness is fire too. Chelia, despite being a God Slayer, couldn't compete against Dimaria's powers when the latter was in her god soul Chronos' takeover. It was only after she activated third origin release with Ultear's assistance to access her peak potential magic power from the future, did she manage to defeat Dimaria. She also required Ultear's help to be able to move in Dimaria's Age Seal too, a spell stated to be taught to her from Chronos. So being a god slayer didn't grant her the strength to resist "gods" powers either.

The same reasoning is applicable to why Gray, despite being an ice devil slayer was outclassed by Invel, a regular ice mage, at the beginning of their fight. Invel could parry Gray's attacks with bare hands, toss him around with his own attacks, and affect Gray with his cold/freezing capability. It was only until he was resuscitated, that Gray could beat Invel into a pulp. Similar to Chelia, he became more powerful during his fight. Rather than third origin release though, the source of Gray's newfound strength came from his power of feelings. The dragon slayers could hardly damage the dragons when F.Rogue summoned them in the GMG arc too.

There are quite a number of examples showing us that slayer advantage isn't everything. Magic power and physical attributes should both be bigger factors to determine the relative strength between characters. Gray should be in the same tier as END Natsu in those aspects to be competing with him on equal footing. The difference between them were portrayed in their fight to be imperceptible. It was certainly closer than Laxus vs Erza, or Natsu vs Gajeel in the 100yq. Re. Laxus vs Gray, present day Laxus has mastered red lightning. For Gray, he has stagnated in terms of feats. Though I believe he has grown more powerful but simply hadn't display them yet. Until that is proven, it remains a speculation. Laxus should beat Gray without much difficulty.
When I said "pokemon type advantage", I wasn't talking of elements, I just meant "damage dealt multiplied, damage taken divided". And I guess Fairy Tail's elements logic changed since Silver said Ice Devil Slaying magic was THE best to counter a fire demon (don't ask why he didn't pick FIRE to eat END's flames, if plot wants ice to be more effective, so be it).

Chelia wasn't on Gray's level, and Gray didn't only have the Slayer advantage but also the element advantage (according to Silver) against END, so we can tell what made the difference. As for the dragons in GMG, I'm pretty sure dragons are stronger than gods (in general) in the Fairy Tail universe, and the Dragon Slayers weren't as powerful in GMG as they were in Alvalez (in Alvalez they could even take down the dragon KING by combining their powers, so you can see the progress they made).

But still, in Tartaros, we saw how Gray's Slaying advantage can make a HUGE difference: He was pretty even to Natsu in terms of raw power, yet Mard could tank DF Natsu's attacks until the later was completely exhausted, and Mard was fine. Gray on the other hand only needed 1 attack to bring Mard down, so his Slayer advantage should make his attacks at least 3 times stronger than DF Natsu's, and Natsu already stated DF tripled his power. So I don't know for Dragon Slaying or God Slaying advantages, but Devil Slaying's deals like 9 TIMES the caster's normal power against regular demons (without even needing an emotion boost), and I'm not even talking of its defensive aspect (absorbing demonic curses) or the extra elemental advantage Gray apparently had on END. So if he only stalemated END with such broken advantages, I can't imagine how END would've hardstomped him if he wasn't a demon.
 

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Silver's legacy is not only ice properties. Gray inherit huge power boost in magic, to the point he amazed Gajeel who was previously aroud his level. And Gajeel only saw Gray with his new born hability, without being marked by demon's darkness on his body, revealed vs Mard Geer. More Demon Slayer consumed Gray's humanity, more he gained power boost. So Devil Slayer is not only giving fatal blow on demons.

Seeying Devil Slayer Gray more powerful than Dragon Force Natsu vs Mard Geer is revelant. This arc was about his new extreme hability.

You have to think that Natsu trained harder than Gray during the gap between Tartaros and Arbaless, to only match his strength. Natsu said he trained 10 month to gain FDK and residual inhérit, Gray only trained 6 month to take control on it and was in mission for 6 month in Avatar.

We saw them equal when they were both moral off and in position to kill each other, with the unleashed power of their feelings : Gray vs END.
 

Biri Biri

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When I said "pokemon type advantage", I wasn't talking of elements, I just meant "damage dealt multiplied, damage taken divided". And I guess Fairy Tail's elements logic changed since Silver said Ice Devil Slaying magic was THE best to counter a fire demon (don't ask why he didn't pick FIRE to eat END's flames, if plot wants ice to be more effective, so be it).

Chelia wasn't on Gray's level, and Gray didn't only have the Slayer advantage but also the element advantage (according to Silver) against END, so we can tell what made the difference. As for the dragons in GMG, I'm pretty sure dragons are stronger than gods (in general) in the Fairy Tail universe, and the Dragon Slayers weren't as powerful in GMG as they were in Alvalez (in Alvalez they could even take down the dragon KING by combining their powers, so you can see the progress they made).

But still, in Tartaros, we saw how Gray's Slaying advantage can make a HUGE difference: He was pretty even to Natsu in terms of raw power, yet Mard could tank DF Natsu's attacks until the later was completely exhausted, and Mard was fine. Gray on the other hand only needed 1 attack to bring Mard down, so his Slayer advantage should make his attacks at least 3 times stronger than DF Natsu's, and Natsu already stated DF tripled his power. So I don't know for Dragon Slaying or God Slaying advantages, but Devil Slaying's deals like 9 TIMES the caster's normal power against regular demons (without even needing an emotion boost), and I'm not even talking of its defensive aspect (absorbing demonic curses) or the extra elemental advantage Gray apparently had on END. So if he only stalemated END with such broken advantages, I can't imagine how END would've hardstomped him if he wasn't a demon.
Given your Pokémon analogy, fire attacks are super effective against ice-type. All fire-type attacks used against an ice-type, gets the damage multiplied by two. Fire-type are resistant to ice-type attacks. So an ice-type attack used against a fire-type Pokémon gets the damage halved. IIRC, that's how the damage gets calculated in Pokémon. Silver said that he learnt ice devil slayer magic because END was a fire demon. He didn't make any point that ice was strong or effective against fire. For all you know, the emphasis was on learning devil slayer magic since END was a demon, and Silver has a grudge against Etherious as his family was presumed to be killed by one in Deliora. Ice happens to the opposite element to fire.

Devil slayer magic is undoubtedly efficient against Etherious, therefore Gray has an advantage over Etherious. Whether it is twice as powerful like in Pokémon, or more like you suggested, honestly it's hard for me to pin point. However, it is important to note that Natsu was never a full fledged Etherious. He was revived by Zeref to live again as a human, he has a demon seed inside of him. Learning dragon slayer magic meant he also had a dragon seed inside of him that without the proper antibodies in place will eventually transform him into a dragon. Both the seeds was fighting inside of him which was what led to his coma. He was a unique specimen of part-human, part-demon, part-dragon hybrid. Other shounen MC also tend to be such hybrids (e.g. Ichigo, part-human, part-Quincy, part-Shinigami hybrid).

From what we have seen, dragons are indeed stronger than gods. The difference in strength between a dragon and a dragon slayer tends to be greater than the difference between a god and a god slayer. Precisely because the gap in power is too huge, unless the dragon slayer is within touching distance to the strength of the dragon in question, being a dragon slayer hardly matters. By the time Alvarez rolled around, all the dragon slayers have became more powerful during the war. It let them close the gap between Acno and them. However, Acno then consumed the ravines of time which meant he himself grew in power too. Eventually, what defeated Acno wasn't the slayers' abilities. Rather, it was due to a continental effort from Ishgar and power of feelings that they managed to trap Acno and dealt the vital blow. Meredy's sensory link from maguilty sense also played a crucial role in enhancing the magic power. So magic power is the biggest factor that affects a fights' outcome more so than any slayer or type advantage.

If Gray wasn't on the same tier as Natsu, it didn't make sense for him to match Natsu blow for blow. He shouldn't be able to smack him down or toss him back. As for curse absorption that you mentioned, we didn't see Gray absorbing any of Natsu's attacks at any point of their fight that led to an advantage. What we saw was Gray being pushed back by Natsu's roar. So the attack has to have worked on Gray effectively. At the end of their fight, Gray also seemingly dealt equal damage to Erza's hands as Natsu did.

Erza isn't an Etherious at all. If Gray was weaker than Natsu then, she shouldn't the sustain same amount of damage from Gray's attack as she did. Unless the arm she used to block Gray's attack is weaker than her other arm used to block Natsu's attack. But that's a reach as it was never implied Erza is suffering from unbalance of strength between her arms.
 

Sinister Spirit

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Given your Pokémon analogy, fire attacks are super effective against ice-type. All fire-type attacks used against an ice-type, gets the damage multiplied by two. Fire-type are resistant to ice-type attacks. So an ice-type attack used against a fire-type Pokémon gets the damage halved. IIRC, that's how the damage gets calculated in Pokémon. Silver said that he learnt ice devil slayer magic because END was a fire demon. He didn't make any point that ice was strong or effective against fire. For all you know, the emphasis was on learning devil slayer magic since END was a demon, and Silver has a grudge against Etherious as his family was presumed to be killed by one in Deliora. Ice happens to the opposite element to fire.

Devil slayer magic is undoubtedly efficient against Etherious, therefore Gray has an advantage over Etherious. Whether it is twice as powerful like in Pokémon, or more like you suggested, honestly it's hard for me to pin point. However, it is important to note that Natsu was never a full fledged Etherious. He was revived by Zeref to live again as a human, he has a demon seed inside of him. Learning dragon slayer magic meant he also had a dragon seed inside of him that without the proper antibodies in place will eventually transform him into a dragon. Both the seeds was fighting inside of him which was what led to his coma. He was a unique specimen of part-human, part-demon, part-dragon hybrid. Other shounen MC also tend to be such hybrids (e.g. Ichigo, part-human, part-Quincy, part-Shinigami hybrid).

From what we have seen, dragons are indeed stronger than gods. The difference in strength between a dragon and a dragon slayer tends to be greater than the difference between a god and a god slayer. Precisely because the gap in power is too huge, unless the dragon slayer is within touching distance to the strength of the dragon in question, being a dragon slayer hardly matters. By the time Alvarez rolled around, all the dragon slayers have became more powerful during the war. It let them close the gap between Acno and them. However, Acno then consumed the ravines of time which meant he himself grew in power too. Eventually, what defeated Acno wasn't the slayers' abilities. Rather, it was due to a continental effort from Ishgar and power of feelings that they managed to trap Acno and dealt the vital blow. Meredy's sensory link from maguilty sense also played a crucial role in enhancing the magic power. So magic power is the biggest factor that affects a fights' outcome more so than any slayer or type advantage.

If Gray wasn't on the same tier as Natsu, it didn't make sense for him to match Natsu blow for blow. He shouldn't be able to smack him down or toss him back. As for curse absorption that you mentioned, we didn't see Gray absorbing any of Natsu's attacks at any point of their fight that led to an advantage. What we saw was Gray being pushed back by Natsu's roar. So the attack has to have worked on Gray effectively. At the end of their fight, Gray also seemingly dealt equal damage to Erza's hands as Natsu did.

Erza isn't an Etherious at all. If Gray was weaker than Natsu then, she shouldn't the sustain same amount of damage from Gray's attack as she did. Unless the arm she used to block Gray's attack is weaker than her other arm used to block Natsu's attack. But that's a reach as it was never implied Erza is suffering from unbalance of strength between her arms.
It seems we have different visions of things. There's no-proof on whether or not Silver specifically chose the element of ice because it was the best or he randomly picked it (if it was random, I doubt he would've even mentioned the words "ice" and "fire" when talking about his magic and END, also it'd make him THE unluckiest guy ever since ice is weak to fire), there's no-proof on whether or not Natsu's END "mode" counted as a full demon or a hybrid, there's no-proof that Gray had a certain RESISTANCE to curses even without absorbing them, and there's no-proof that Erza blocking them equally wasn't just a detail Mashima wrote to make the scene look more touching (I mean they both consider her a friend, yet they both hurt her equally)... I won't write all the details we mentioned, but these are all uncertainties, we just have different personal ideas about them. So I don't share your opinion but I respect it.
 

Ratrace

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That S12 while enhanced was oneshotted by Natsu's basic Iron Fist. He isn't S12 level in terms of actual firepower or stats. His only redeeming quality is his Historia and his Magical Power. Jellal one shotting Neinhart is hardly a feat. That fight was actually bad because Jellal got oneshotted by a guy who had weaker stats then Bakel lol.

Jellal's goal will never be achieved so there's no point in hyping him up to that level. Even if he had Third Origin he would stand no chance at beating August let alone Zeref so there's no point in hyping his training up when his feats are crap. How is going to even withstand a fodder blast from Zeref when a fodder blast from Neinheart oneshotted him?

Laxus lost because he used Fairy Law which drains a tremendous amount of magic. Not only that but he used had brief battle with Mystogan before the battle with Natsu and Gajeel.

He need Sema and Grand Chariot at the same time to take out Oracion Seis...There's no way Sema alone is taking out Jura lol. We saw that all Jellal's previous attacks had no affect on Jura too so what make you think Sema could oneshot Jura?

Jura was shocked at Minerva's spell doesn't mean he couldn't tank it. Facial expressions mean nothing when at the end of the day he needed Sema on top of Grand Chariot just to take out Oracion Sies. Those were x784 enemies and he had difficulty taking on three at once in a physical battle.... Laxus would have oneshotted Fodder Sies like did with Raven Tail.

Wahl >>>>>>>>>>>>> Neinhart. Mid tier S12 can take more than two punches from Base Natsu.

Laxus is on a different caliber since x791 and he's proven it.

Also Laxus surpassing Jura in three months compared Jellal not even actually having concrete feats to suggest he's stronger than Jura in the past six years he had to train shows the growth rate between Laxus and Jellal.
Personally I believe Natsu would have been able to oneshot most of the Spriggans at that time
 

grey matter

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Laxus defeats Regular DeS Gray, at most by mid diff
Darkness Gray high diffs Laxus
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Also Laxus surpassing Jura in three months compared Jellal not even actually having concrete feats to suggest he's stronger than Jura in the past six years he had to train shows the growth rate between Laxus and Jellal.
This is not an valid argument. Characters get powerup or stagnate depending on Mashima's will. Mashima don't care about training or powerups, he cares about portrayal. If we wants certain characters at a level, he will have them at that level irrespective of timeskip or training or logic.

Also, even by that logic, it can be used in reverse as well. Jellol was Laxus level in x784, in spite of him being only 19 in beginning of series while Laxus was 24. So, he reached a level where Laxus reached, faster.

But, in 7 year timeskip, the dude basically stagnated and grew LESS than Jura (Jura got closer in PL to Jellol in the timeskip). And then, Jellol skyrocketed to high Spriggan tier in one year, while Jura showed no such improvement. See the problem here?

Mashima wants Laxus and Jellol to be around same level, and he will have them there irrespective of logic, or timeskip, or training. He does that with many characters whose portrayal he wants to maintain. It's a pattern with Mashima, we've discussed this before, I'll just quote it here:

I get where you're coming from, based on feats and portrayal (i.e, if Lucy has magic power comparable to Juvia, then Loke or Gemini would definitely solo Juvia). So logically, just one strong spirit (like Loke) would solo, 2 spirits (which Lucy can summon at this point) would mid diff, add in star dress or star dress mix and Juvia gets low diff'd

But, I don't know man. You know the game Mashima plays. He wants to keep certain portrayals, and no amount of powerups would change portrayal in his eyes. So, IF he sees Juvia in Lucy tier, Juvia will still end up in Lucy tier whether it's logical or not.
This is the same reason:
- Why Jellol stagnated for 7 years (if he grew for the 7 years like he grew in between x791 and x792, he would one shot August at this point lmao).
- Why Erza isn't one shotting Mira after being 3 years ahead of her (Erza was Mira tier when Mira stopped training 3 years back. Erza kept training, while Mira actually not just stagnated but regressed for 3 years)
-Why Gildarts reached only at a level where he could mid diff Bluenote in his 45 years. But in 1 year timeskip suddenly reached high Spriggan tier tho he barely trains, is past his peak, and just fools around.
There are more examples, but you get the point

It's all to protect portrayal. For Mashima, training means little. Powerups mean little and just serve to show something new (with few exceptions like DF, which is protected). Portrayal means pretty much everything. He sees certain characters relative to others, and that's how he writes.
Among the "relevant characters" (MCs, other FT powerhouses, Jellol, twin dragons), the only character whose portrayal significantly changed was Natsu's. Erza, Gray, Wendy and Lucy are rising up relative to others as well, but power dynamics haven't changed too much

Logically (and by feats), Lucy should stomp Juvia. But, knowing Mashima's portrayal, I highly doubt it. If that fight ever happened, he wouldn't make it a stomp, but would make a high diff battle
 

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Laxus defeats Regular DeS Gray, at most by mid diff
Darkness Gray high diffs Laxus
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



This is not an valid argument. Characters get powerup or stagnate depending on Mashima's will. Mashima don't care about training or powerups, he cares about portrayal. If we wants certain characters at a level, he will have them at that level irrespective of timeskip or training or logic.

Also, even by that logic, it can be used in reverse as well. Jellol was Laxus level in x784, in spite of him being only 19 in beginning of series while Laxus was 24. So, he reached a level where Laxus reached, faster.

But, in 7 year timeskip, the dude basically stagnated and grew LESS than Jura (Jura got closer in PL to Jellol in the timeskip). And then, Jellol skyrocketed to high Spriggan tier in one year, while Jura showed no such improvement. See the problem here?

Mashima wants Laxus and Jellol to be around same level, and he will have them there irrespective of logic, or timeskip, or training. He does that with many characters whose portrayal he wants to maintain. It's a pattern with Mashima, we've discussed this before, I'll just quote it here:
It is a valid argument. Feats = growth rate. Laxus feats >>> Jellal's feats and Jellal had eight years to train while Laxus had 1.

Bring up BoS is meaningless. Laxus was already stated to be a late bloomer while Jellal was trained by Brain since he was a kid.

Cool, when Mashima gives them feats to show they can give Lucy/Laxus diff then they will have feats to say such. As of now their feats are weak in comparison thus their growth rate is weak. Until Mashima gives them feats to prove otherwise then these hypothetical portrayals are nothing but speculation lol.

Also Jellal was never "high" spriggan tier lmfao. Dude only beat the weakest of the Spriggans with a butt load of help. Where did you get high tier S12 from those feats?

Saying Jellal skyrocketed is generous. He doesn't even have feats to say he can beat Base Natsu lol.

Personally I believe Natsu would have been able to oneshot most of the Spriggans at that time
Well he only oneshotted one S12 with Base level attacks while multiple others have shown to shrug off his Base level hits. He wasn't even doped up on PoF and straight up two shotted Neinheart like a scrub lol
--- Double Post Merged, ---

Also that post was from four years ago so I don't even remember the context of the whole growth rate discussion either lol.
 

Ramen

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Laxus still wins lmao.

There are many statements that show Laxus being in a different league that I don't have to bring up feats because Laxus was never two-shot in the series lol.
 

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Laxus defeats Regular DeS Gray, at most by mid diff
Darkness Gray high diffs Laxus
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Darkness Gray is still Gray. His attack was blocked by Alvarez-arc Erza. Her arm was visibly injured, but it wasn't serious enough to debilitate her fighting condition against Irene afterwards. Erza has grown more powerful since in the 100yq. Present-day Laxus beat 100yq Erza. So it's reasonable to think Laxus should defeat any version of Gray quite easily.
 

Ratrace

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It is a valid argument. Feats = growth rate. Laxus feats >>> Jellal's feats and Jellal had eight years to train while Laxus had 1.

Bring up BoS is meaningless. Laxus was already stated to be a late bloomer while Jellal was trained by Brain since he was a kid.

Cool, when Mashima gives them feats to show they can give Lucy/Laxus diff then they will have feats to say such. As of now their feats are weak in comparison thus their growth rate is weak. Until Mashima gives them feats to prove otherwise then these hypothetical portrayals are nothing but speculation lol.

Also Jellal was never "high" spriggan tier lmfao. Dude only beat the weakest of the Spriggans with a butt load of help. Where did you get high tier S12 from those feats?

Saying Jellal skyrocketed is generous. He doesn't even have feats to say he can beat Base Natsu lol.


Well he only oneshotted one S12 with Base level attacks while multiple others have shown to shrug off his Base level hits. He wasn't even doped up on PoF and straight up two shotted Neinheart like a scrub lol
--- Double Post Merged, ---

Also that post was from four years ago so I don't even remember the context of the whole growth rate discussion either lol.
One of the reasons why Natsu took Neinhart out so easily was to prove Brandish wrong
 

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One of the reasons why Natsu took Neinhart out so easily was to prove Brandish wrong
That's not PoF tho. He had zero trouble in KOing Neinheart and didn't even use something beyond normal attacks lol. Neinheart just has poor dura which is why he went down with two hits.
 

Ratrace

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That's not PoF tho. He had zero trouble in KOing Neinheart and didn't even use something beyond normal attacks lol. Neinheart just has poor dura which is why he went down with two hits.
Natsu and Brandish were having an argument about them being strong enough or not
Natsu taking Neinhart out was to prove a point
Now would Natsu need a stronger attack on the other ones most likely but the same thing would have happened
 

grey matter

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It is a valid argument. Feats = growth rate. Laxus feats >>> Jellal's feats and Jellal had eight years to train while Laxus had 1.

Bring up BoS is meaningless. Laxus was already stated to be a late bloomer while Jellal was trained by Brain since he was a kid.

Cool, when Mashima gives them feats to show they can give Lucy/Laxus diff then they will have feats to say such. As of now their feats are weak in comparison thus their growth rate is weak. Until Mashima gives them feats to prove otherwise then these hypothetical portrayals are nothing but speculation lol.

Also Jellal was never "high" spriggan tier lmfao. Dude only beat the weakest of the Spriggans with a butt load of help. Where did you get high tier S12 from those feats?

Saying Jellal skyrocketed is generous. He doesn't even have feats to say he can beat Base Natsu lol.


Well he only oneshotted one S12 with Base level attacks while multiple others have shown to shrug off his Base level hits. He wasn't even doped up on PoF and straight up two shotted Neinheart like a scrub lol
What Laxus's feats is >>> Jellol's?

In x791, they were both around Jura tier, feats suggest so.

In x792, they don't have feats which allow comparison. Because they both fought different opponents, who although had similar portrayal, had different stats.
Jellol received buttload of help to beat Neinhart? How? If anything, the presence of others hindered him than help him. Remove Kagura and he won't even be hit.
His magic power was something that far exceeded Neinhart's, since Neinhart appeared visibly worried when Jellol powered up. This shows us that Jellol is far above an average Spriggan in terms of MP. And unlike typical Spriggan, Jellol isn't all MP & fodder in stats, so stats scale as well.

Same with x793, their feats aren't something that allows comparison between two.
But Jellol did manage to immobilize Erza. If Jellol was below her tier, then Erza should be able to break free from his bind snake. Since, hax spells like these usually fail if casters are a tier below. This indicates that Jellol at least is in her tier.
He also tanked Kyria's roar without even a scratch. This shows he isn't some fodder like you claim he is.

If you wanna say Laxus' feats are more impressive, sure. If we discount Jellol's feat against Acno (which I also admittedly do, since we all know Acno can one shot anyone in the series except high tier dragons and full power DF Natsu), there isn't much feats where Jellol stands out. He doesn't get drawn out fights, his last 2 fights were very quick ones where he one shots with Grand Chariot
Laxus got more drawn out fights. But this doesn't mean Laxus is above Jellol, it just means he got more feats shown to us. Context here is, portrayal and understanding of the series. If Laxus and Jellol ever fought, even if Laxus would win (which I think he would), Jellol would give him a run for his money. Laxus himself has indicated it ("if we fight, it wouldn't end well for either of us")

Growth rate is completely in Mashima's hands, he makes characters grow however he wants to fit his portrayal. The growth Jellol got between x791 and x792 is >>>>>> the growth he got in 7 years - fact. This is completely un-fucking-deniable. You're the only one who'll deny this lol.
Why did Jura stagnate, while he had more growth than Jellol in the 7 years? Because, in x791 he wanted to build up Jura as a boss, but after x791, Mashima had no more use for Jura. He's not a relevant character like Laxus and Jellol.

Sure, the portrayal is hypothetical regarding Juvia and Lucy. I just considered them around same level, because some of their past feats were comparable. But there wasn't really any comparison between them that was made in the manga.
But portrayal regarding Laxus and Jellol is very much real. This has been clearly demonstrated multiple times, in main manga and even in the 100 YQ. In fact, it's the only portrayal that's still even remotely standing, while other old rivalries like Natsu/Gray, Natsu/Gajeel and Erza/Mira died out.

That's not PoF tho. He had zero trouble in KOing Neinheart and didn't even use something beyond normal attacks lol. Neinheart just has poor dura which is why he went down with two hits.
The same attacks would've KO'd Bandish too, who you think of very highly. After Neinhart went down, Brandish was in a state of utter shock, wondering how strong Natsu really was.
Those 2 attacks would've KO'd the typical Spriggan, who's high MP, hax and mediocre stats. Like Ratrace said, Natsu wanted to prove a point right there.

Darkness Gray is still Gray. His attack was blocked by Alvarez-arc Erza. Her arm was visibly injured, but it wasn't serious enough to debilitate her fighting condition against Irene afterwards. Erza has grown more powerful since in the 100yq. Present-day Laxus beat 100yq Erza. So it's reasonable to think Laxus should defeat any version of Gray quite easily.
Yea, her arm was visibly injured from that attack. While they were trading countless blows between each other without such injuries each time they crossed blows.
Which means, partial END and darkness Gray were significantly above Erza.
Even from a narrative point, it makes sense. Partial END, by narrative, has to be stronger than regular Natsu (i.e non DF Natsu) at least. Regular Natsu is on or above Erza. A less demonized END, than who fought Gray, overpowered Dimaria's timestop and rofl stomped her. Traumatised her to the point where she gave up fighting and became a farmer lol.

Saying Darkness Gray is still Gray, is like saying DF Natsu is still Natsu. Non DF Natsu would be around Laxus level, while DF Natsu would one shot Laxus. Not saying darkness is that much of a boost for Natsu, but I hope you get the point I'm making. Only difference being, we don't know if Gray can call upon that power again, willingly.
 

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Yea, her arm was visibly injured from that attack. While they were trading countless blows between each other without such injuries each time they crossed blows.
Which means, partial END and darkness Gray were significantly above Erza.
Lol what? She let herself take those blows. The same Erza who one-shot a meteor with one arm is vastly superior to END and Gray.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Only people that think PoF Gray is above Laxus is Gray fans.

Laxus had the better arc lol
 
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Biri Biri

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Yea, her arm was visibly injured from that attack. While they were trading countless blows between each other without such injuries each time they crossed blows.
Which means, partial END and darkness Gray were significantly above Erza.
Even from a narrative point, it makes sense. Partial END, by narrative, has to be stronger than regular Natsu (i.e non DF Natsu) at least. Regular Natsu is on or above Erza. A less demonized END, than who fought Gray, overpowered Dimaria's timestop and rofl stomped her. Traumatised her to the point where she gave up fighting and became a farmer lol.

Saying Darkness Gray is still Gray, is like saying DF Natsu is still Natsu. Non DF Natsu would be around Laxus level, while DF Natsu would one shot Laxus. Not saying darkness is that much of a boost for Natsu, but I hope you get the point I'm making. Only difference being, we don't know if Gray can call upon that power again, willingly.
Like I said earlier, her arm was visibly injured but Erza was still in top fighting condition against Irene. There was not one mention or hint that the damage she sustained blocking Natsu and Gray's attack affected her in the fight with Irene. Visible injury does not equate serious injury. And non-visible injury/wound does not equate non-serious injury. Someone could have a cardiac arrest and you wouldn't be able to see the heart stopping since it is an inner organ concealed within the body. Without medical equipment, you would only be able to guess base on the person's reaction. I know Natsu stomped Dimaria with little difficulty. However, Laxus had two clear handicaps in his fight with Wall. The moment the handicaps were lifted, Laxus literally killed Wall with a single blow. Wall's death was swift and faster than Invel/Dimaria's loss. And Laxus has since mastered red lightning and able to employ it in a variety of ways. The odds don't bode well for Gray.

'Darkness' is simply a fanciful way for saying PoF. It is nothing unique to Gray. When Gray thought Juvia was dead, he was fueled by feelings of anger and sadness. It then elevated him to a new level of strength, that allowed him to overwhelm Invel and fought on par with Natsu. Anger and sadness are feelings. We feel them. In FT, that makes them PoF. Gray with peak PoF might push Laxus to a greater difficulty, but his feats are lacking to put someone of Laxus' calibre down and out. We have to remember that the strongest foe Gray has defeated remains Invel. While Erza with her newly developed powers has defeated Kyria in their rematch, and pushed Laxus to a high-extreme difficulty fight. Gray has yet to show the readers any newly acquired strength in the 100yq. Gray has absolutely nothing in his arsenal that can overpower Laxus. He can't outlast him either, since Laxus has even greater stamina/endurance than Gray.

Gray is strong and tough, but let's not get overboard here.
 

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Like I said earlier, her arm was visibly injured but Erza was still in top fighting condition against Irene. There was not one mention or hint that the damage she sustained blocking Natsu and Gray's attack affected her in the fight with Irene. Visible injury does not equate serious injury. And non-visible injury/wound does not equate non-serious injury. Someone could have a cardiac arrest and you wouldn't be able to see the heart stopping since it is an inner organ concealed within the body. Without medical equipment, you would only be able to guess base on the person's reaction. I know Natsu stomped Dimaria with little difficulty. However, Laxus had two clear handicaps in his fight with Wall. The moment the handicaps were lifted, Laxus literally killed Wall with a single blow. Wall's death was swift and faster than Invel/Dimaria's loss. And Laxus has since mastered red lightning and able to employ it in a variety of ways. The odds don't bode well for Gray.

'Darkness' is simply a fanciful way for saying PoF. It is nothing unique to Gray. When Gray thought Juvia was dead, he was fueled by feelings of anger and sadness. It then elevated him to a new level of strength, that allowed him to overwhelm Invel and fought on par with Natsu. Anger and sadness are feelings. We feel them. In FT, that makes them PoF. Gray with peak PoF might push Laxus to a greater difficulty, but his feats are lacking to put someone of Laxus' calibre down and out. We have to remember that the strongest foe Gray has defeated remains Invel. While Erza with her newly developed powers has defeated Kyria in their rematch, and pushed Laxus to a high-extreme difficulty fight. Gray has yet to show the readers any newly acquired strength in the 100yq. Gray has absolutely nothing in his arsenal that can overpower Laxus. He can't outlast him either, since Laxus has even greater stamina/endurance than Gray.

Gray is strong and tough, but let's not get overboard here.
Music to my eyes.
 

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Gray isn't on the same level as Natsu with his own powers. He's on the same level as END's power. Erza was able to stop both END and Gray's attacks pretty easily, and then still go on to do everything she did to Irene. You have to scale to a version of Natsu that is above Erza in order to beat Laxus, and I don't consider END to be stronger than Erza.

You have to think that Natsu trained harder than Gray during the gap between Tartaros and Arbaless, to only match his strength. Natsu said he trained 10 month to gain FDK and residual inhérit, Gray only trained 6 month to take control on it and was in mission for 6 month in Avatar.

We saw them equal when they were both moral off and in position to kill each other, with the unleashed power of their feelings : Gray vs END.
Natsu had to train 10 months in order to release Igneel's magic power. Igneel is God Dragon level, so his magic power required you to be at a certain level in order to handle. Silver's power had no such requirement, because Silver doesn't have god-dragon levels of magical power. You don't have to be super strong just to use Silver's magic. You do with Igneel. They weren't equals either after the training either. Natsu was far stronger. Igneel's power was strong enough to kill Zeref, and FDK is proving to be superior to Devil Slaying at pretty much every turn.

What made Natsu and Gray equal during Alvarez was END. END's power is fueled by Natsu's rage and grief over Lucy's death. Natsu can't use his usual POF fueled by friendship when he's under END's influence. The emotions are incompatible. When Erza gave her speech and made Natsu remember his childhood friendship with Erza and Gray, this caused END's power to dissipate. That same speech was what triggered Natsu's POF later when he beat Zeref. Since these emotions for the guild is by Natsu's own words his greatest strength, and produced one of the strongest feats in the series to back it up, END can be argued to pretty much be a nerf.
 
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Jko

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Natsu and Brandish were having an argument about them being strong enough or not
Natsu taking Neinhart out was to prove a point
Now would Natsu need a stronger attack on the other ones most likely but the same thing would have happened
That literally does not matter at all as only Neinheart went down to basic punches from Natsu. If Natsu was so clearly hyped on PoF sauce, he wouldn't have been insta KOed by Brandish two seconds afterwards. So the whole he was unbeatable in that moment argument is just false as Natsu was beaten two seconds later. Natsu just straight up wrecked Neinheart lol.

What Laxus's feats is >>> Jellol's?

In x791, they were both around Jura tier, feats suggest so.

In x792, they don't have feats which allow comparison. Because they both fought different opponents, who although had similar portrayal, had different stats.
Jellol received buttload of help to beat Neinhart? How? If anything, the presence of others hindered him than help him. Remove Kagura and he won't even be hit.
His magic power was something that far exceeded Neinhart's, since Neinhart appeared visibly worried when Jellol powered up. This shows us that Jellol is far above an average Spriggan in terms of MP. And unlike typical Spriggan, Jellol isn't all MP & fodder in stats, so stats scale as well.

Same with x793, their feats aren't something that allows comparison between two.
But Jellol did manage to immobilize Erza. If Jellol was below her tier, then Erza should be able to break free from his bind snake. Since, hax spells like these usually fail if casters are a tier below. This indicates that Jellol at least is in her tier.
He also tanked Kyria's roar without even a scratch. This shows he isn't some fodder like you claim he is.

If you wanna say Laxus' feats are more impressive, sure. If we discount Jellol's feat against Acno (which I also admittedly do, since we all know Acno can one shot anyone in the series except high tier dragons and full power DF Natsu), there isn't much feats where Jellol stands out. He doesn't get drawn out fights, his last 2 fights were very quick ones where he one shots with Grand Chariot
Laxus got more drawn out fights. But this doesn't mean Laxus is above Jellol, it just means he got more feats shown to us. Context here is, portrayal and understanding of the series. If Laxus and Jellol ever fought, even if Laxus would win (which I think he would), Jellol would give him a run for his money. Laxus himself has indicated it ("if we fight, it wouldn't end well for either of us")

Growth rate is completely in Mashima's hands, he makes characters grow however he wants to fit his portrayal. The growth Jellol got between x791 and x792 is >>>>>> the growth he got in 7 years - fact. This is completely un-fucking-deniable. You're the only one who'll deny this lol.
Why did Jura stagnate, while he had more growth than Jellol in the 7 years? Because, in x791 he wanted to build up Jura as a boss, but after x791, Mashima had no more use for Jura. He's not a relevant character like Laxus and Jellol.

Sure, the portrayal is hypothetical regarding Juvia and Lucy. I just considered them around same level, because some of their past feats were comparable. But there wasn't really any comparison between them that was made in the manga.
But portrayal regarding Laxus and Jellol is very much real. This has been clearly demonstrated multiple times, in main manga and even in the 100 YQ. In fact, it's the only portrayal that's still even remotely standing, while other old rivalries like Natsu/Gray, Natsu/Gajeel and Erza/Mira died out.



The same attacks would've KO'd Bandish too, who you think of very highly. After Neinhart went down, Brandish was in a state of utter shock, wondering how strong Natsu really was.
Those 2 attacks would've KO'd the typical Spriggan, who's high MP, hax and mediocre stats. Like Ratrace said, Natsu wanted to prove a point right there.

Yea, her arm was visibly injured from that attack. While they were trading countless blows between each other without such injuries each time they crossed blows.
Which means, partial END and darkness Gray were significantly above Erza.
Even from a narrative point, it makes sense. Partial END, by narrative, has to be stronger than regular Natsu (i.e non DF Natsu) at least. Regular Natsu is on or above Erza. A less demonized END, than who fought Gray, overpowered Dimaria's timestop and rofl stomped her. Traumatised her to the point where she gave up fighting and became a farmer lol.

Saying Darkness Gray is still Gray, is like saying DF Natsu is still Natsu. Non DF Natsu would be around Laxus level, while DF Natsu would one shot Laxus. Not saying darkness is that much of a boost for Natsu, but I hope you get the point I'm making. Only difference being, we don't know if Gray can call upon that power again, willingly.
Laxus solo entirity of Raven Tail with only a couple scratches, actual beat Jura, basically oneshotted a 9D, took down Wall while sick then KOed Hades while heavily injured and fought Erza to a stalemate.

Jellal on the other could have maybe beaten Jura with his strongest attack (needed his strongest attack to even significantly damage him). Then Jellal goes on to get beat up by OS, barely beat OS with his two strongest spells back to back, got oneshotted by Neinheart, needed a charged GC to beat Neinheart while he had no Historia to protect himself, got beat up by Gears (God Seeds bar Aldo have fodder level stats) and need Ultear's help to beat him.

Please tell me where their feats are even remotely comparable?

His magical power was never S12 level. Literally no character has commented to his MP being absurdly high lol. Neinheart was only surprised by the type of magic he had not his magic power lol.

Growth rate is judged by feats just like PL is judged by feats. The author ofc has free reign to make anyone as powerful as he wants by giving them feats. He hasn't done so for Jellal or Juvia in over a decade therefore their growth rate is garbage in comparison. It is a completely valid argument to be made.

There is no tangible portrayal that Laxus and Jellal are even remotely comparable. There was more evidence that Mira and Laxus were hype to be the same level based off "portrayal" this arc then Laxus and Jellal. What was this so called portrayal Jellal had this arc? Get dissed by Natsu then by Juvia and not being considered that weak by Laxus? A stare down is meaningless as shown when Sting stared down Natsu and then got utterly demolished by him with his boy, Rogue. Laxus and Jellal aren't portrayed at the same level and the characters themselves know this lol.

Brandish manhandle Base Natsu to the point he couldn't overpower her and when Base Natsu is overpowered in physicals that means his regular fire fist isn't going to cut it as shown in the Jacob fight lol. Only reason Neinheart went down bcs his physicals were trash. Even the knight dude that Lucy was capable of blowing back in Dragon Cry had better tank feats than Neinheart as he could actually withstand a blow from Base Natsu's FD level attack. Like I said above, Natsu wasn't in some hyped up unbeatable PoF mode. He lost two seconds afterwards to Brandish. So again the only won was bcs his FD level attacks were capable of oneshotting Neinheart. It had zero to do with PoF or hype.
 
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That literally does not matter at all as only Neinheart went down to ba from Natsu. If Natsu was so clearly hyped on PoF sauce, he wouldn't have been insta KOed by Brandish two seconds afterwards. So the whole he was unbeatable in that moment argument is just false as Natsu was beaten two seconds later. Natsu just straight up wrecked
Like I said Natsu vs. Neinhart was to prove Brandish wrong what happens afterwards had nothing to do with it even if was seconds away
Also Natsu only went down because Brandish made something bigger that was already giving problems before
 

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Like I said Natsu vs. Neinhart was to prove Brandish wrong what happens afterwards had nothing to do with it even if was seconds away
Also Natsu only went down because Brandish made something bigger that was already giving problems before
Since when does proving someone wrong mean anything? Natsu wanted to prove himself to Igneel by beating Mard Geer yet still got slapped around in the end. He only proved that he could oneshot Neinheart who has terrible durability showings lol. There was nothing indicating that he more powerful than before. Natsu vs Neinheart could be replicated by Alvarez or Current Natsu at any time lol.
She enlarged his tumour back to what it was. She could have enlarged his brain to bust. Either way he wasn't invincible nor boosted by PoF. If he wanted to prove her statement wrong then he would have beaten her right then and there.
 
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