Conditional Mirajane vs Ajeel

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

I mean it's not all about magic power though, Nakagami armor literally counters magic that she slices with her sword. I believe Mira and Erza are rather equal, i have stated that Satan Soul : Alegria was somewhat equivalent to Nakagami armor. So i believe they are even, and despite her being able to use Alegria infinitely, i still don't think there is anything to suggest she has an answer for Sand World. I mean Erza did not, why should she?

The only real benefit with using Nakagami Armor was that it slices through space which would counter Ajeel's Sand Body. Nakagami Starlight is still a physical attack after all. As for the power, it didn't really change.

Sand World? Mirajane has more of an answer to that than Erza. In fact, Erza already had an answer for that.

Spoiler

Keep in mind that one of Erza's disadvantages in his fight was that her opponent has such a high AoE. But because Mirajane's AoE (which is far superior to Erza) would cancel out Ajeel's sandstorm, she would arguably have less difficulty against him.

As for damaging him? Ajeel was shown to only render physical objects useless. In terms of magic, he is quite vulnerable whether he is using Sand Body or not. Again, Erza was at a disadvantage because her attacks are dealt by slashes from her sword (physical object). Mirajane's nuke (magic) would easily bypass that restriction as shown with Team Natsu and Laxus' encounter against him.

Now if you're talking about Sands of Death, Ant Lion's Pit, or other attacks that Ajeel didn't use against Erza, I would admit the dynamics of the fight would change. But here is the difference between Erza and Mirajane. Erza wouldn't fare to well as she can't fly. Meanwhile, Mirajane could easily fly and evade them due to the fact that those attacks are all ground-based. Another advantage for Mirajane, yet another disadvantage for Erza.

 

[Aizen]

The only real benefit with using Nakagami Armor was that it slices through space which would counter Ajeel's Sand Body. Nakagami Starlight is still a physical attack after all. As for the power, it didn't really change.

Sand World? Mirajane has more of an answer to that than Erza. In fact, Erza already had an answer for that.

Spoiler

Keep in mind that one of Erza's disadvantages in his fight was that her opponent has such a high AoE. But because Mirajane's AoE (which is far superior to Erza) would cancel out Ajeel's sandstorm, she would arguably have less difficulty against him.

As for damaging him? Ajeel was shown to only render physical objects useless. In terms of magic, he is quite vulnerable whether he is using Sand Body or not. Again, Erza was at a disadvantage because her attacks are dealt by slashes from her sword (physical object). Mirajane's nuke (magic) would easily bypass that restriction as shown with Team Natsu and Laxus' encounter against him.

Now if you're talking about Sands of Death, Ant Lion's Pit, or other attacks that Ajeel didn't use against Erza, I would admit the dynamics of the fight would change. But here is the difference between Erza and Mirajane. Erza wouldn't fare to well as she can't fly. Meanwhile, Mirajane could easily fly and evade them due to the fact that those attacks are all ground-based. Another advantage for Mirajane, yet another disadvantage for Erza.

Yeah matchup wise Mira fares a bit better i suppose, but still i don't see her aoe being strong enough to cancel out Sand World. Erza was also able to cut through the storm, albeit with far less powerful aoe like you said, only for it to reform once again. My point is Sand World is too big to be dissipated by Mira's aoe imo. I still believe Erza and Mira to be equals, mostly because while Mira might have more raw power, Erza has more versatility in her various armors. I do agree with you about Nakagami armor not being able to counter Sand World since it does only cut space. Which is why Erza would lose to Ajeel if not for the Jupiter Cannon as well imo.

 

[Brandish μ]

Alegria may be her most powerful Take-Over Soul, but it doesn't have any feats at all. As for Seilah Soul, Macro is capable of simply slaying everyone who doesn't have something to counter it.

Fair enough, but Mira called Alegria a trump card, so I take it that Macro is inferior.

Not sure if you're taking the conditions into account but you do know that Mirajane spamming nukes repeatedly (in Alegria Form) would overpower one slash from Nakagami Starlight, right? We're talking about Mirajane's strongest form here. Equivalent to Erza going full-power (Nakagami Armor). Not only is it stronger, but it has more AoE. Mirajane would surely have more of an advantage against Ajeel than Erza, who has no attacks capable of dispersing his spells.

The only reason I view Nakagami and Alegria are similar is because of the MP drainage. But right now Starlight is definitely the better attack on feats. Miralegria would need a named attack to get close to Starlight.

Alegria didn't use a nuke. It was physical strength at a very high level. The AoE Mira has in this form is at CQC level. Ajeel is very capable in terms of movement, it's not a given that Mira can land many attacks on him. She'll land some, but not enough to dominate. He can defensively assimilate with the sand, and of course use Sandworld.

Mirajane is definitely underrated, considering many people say that she would fare better than Erza (yet lose to Ajeel). I'm more interested in the difficulty you guys place for Erza's fight against Ajeel now. It seems many think it wasn't a draw or that Ajeel beat her with less than high difficulty.

What has Mira done to say she'd fare better than Erza? Imo many people are overrating Mirajane. With hype I'd say she's close to Erza's level without being on par with Erza. To be above Erza, Mira would need to prove herself against better opposition than Irene's subordinates who lacked physically and offensively.

In this scenario where Mira is basically given more MP. But it doesn't change Mira's physical endurance, which is certainly not in Erza's class. The form probably gives her better durability, but we haven't seen that yet. Erza would likely take out Miralegria with Starlight.

Ajeel is certainly a better fighter than Erza. To me there is no question that Ajeel would win the battle without the intervention of Jupiter. Erza won with very high difficulty after Jupiter gave her the opportunity to use Starlight. If Miralegria pushed Ajeel to Sandworld it's pretty much over... Erza had wind swords which magically are effective at blowing away sand, and that didn't come close to stopping Sandworld. Mira has no such counter.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Yeah matchup wise Mira fares a bit better i suppose, but still i don't see her aoe being strong enough to cancel out Sand World. Erza was also able to cut through the storm, albeit with far less powerful aoe like you said, only for it to reform once again. My point is Sand World is too big to be dissipated by Mira's aoe imo. I still believe Erza and Mira to be equals, mostly because while Mira might have more raw power, Erza has more versatility in her various armors. I do agree with you about Nakagami armor not being able to counter Sand World since it does only cut space. Which is why Erza would lose to Ajeel if not for the Jupiter Cannon as well imo.

Fair enough. We'll just disagree here.

To be honest though, I think you're overhyping Sand World. It's true that it's AoE is on city level, but if someone with Mirajane's AoE is not enough, who is? Unless you're telling me that only Jellal's Sema is big enough to scatter the sand? Laxus' nuke has only proven to scatter Ajeel's Sands of Death, so I guess he wouldn't be able to do anything against Sand World. Even Natsu's AoE isn't large enough.

My point here is that size isn't necessarily a good indication of persistence.

The only reason I view Nakagami and Alegria are similar is because of the MP drainage. But right now Starlight is definitely the better attack on feats. Miralegria would need a named attack to get close to Starlight.

The assumption that a named attack is better than an unnamed attack is problematic because that isn't always the case. I fail to see how Nakagami Starlight has better feats because all it did was take out an already critically injured Ajeel.

Alegria didn't use a nuke. It was physical strength at a very high level. The AoE Mira has in this form is at CQC level. Ajeel is very capable in terms of movement, it's not a given that Mira can land many attacks on him. She'll land some, but not enough to dominate. He can defensively assimilate with the sand, and of course use Sandworld.

You're technically correct here. I assumed that Mirajane could keep her attacks (nukes) in Alegria form but it hasn't been proven so I won't speculate. As for Mirajane defeating Juliet + Hynhe, I know it was pure physical strength. It is true Ajeel is very good at evading, but Mirajane is better than Erza in that aspect. So if Erza can perform such a feat, so can Mirajane. Assimilating with the sand won't work on Mirajane as she can use nukes in her Sitri Form. And Sand World? Once again, overhyped.

What has Mira done to say she'd fare better than Erza? Imo many people are overrating Mirajane. With hype I'd say she's close to Erza's level without being on par with Erza. To be above Erza, Mira would need to prove herself against better opposition than Irene's subordinates who lacked physically and offensively.

In this scenario where Mira is basically given more MP. But it doesn't change Mira's physical endurance, which is certainly not in Erza's class. The form probably gives her better durability, but we haven't seen that yet. Erza would likely take out Miralegria with Starlight.

Ajeel is certainly a better fighter than Erza. To me there is no question that Ajeel would win the battle without the intervention of Jupiter. Erza won with very high difficulty after Jupiter gave her the opportunity to use Starlight. If Miralegria pushed Ajeel to Sandworld it's pretty much over... Erza had wind swords which magically are effective at blowing away sand, and that didn't come close to stopping Sandworld. Mira has no such counter.

You completely missed the point. Mirajane would fare better than Erza against Ajeel because she is a better match-up. Mirajane overrated? More like underrated. Even without hype, Mirajane is very well on Erza's level. Erza was sort of a disappointment in this arc. With feats I'd say she barely improved. Again, based on what can you say Juliet + Hynhe lacked in power? Because they were one-shotted by Mirajane?

No, Mirajane was not just given more MP. She clearly had enhanced attack and speed. Physical endurance didn't change? Mirajane took out Eileen's subordinates with pure CQC. That is a prime example of excellent physical endurance, especially since the rules state that Mirajane can use Alegria Soul for an unlimited amount of time. The only way you can downplay this feat is if you considered Juliet + Hynhe fodders. Then that would be a circular argument on your part. You can't say Eileen's subordinates are fodders because they were taken out by Mirajane but them claim that Mirajane is weak for taking out fodders.

Like I said, I acknowledge that Erza was saved by Jupiter Cannon. But you also have to take into account that she was magically weakened after enduring Ajeel's attacks because she couldn't use magic. Mirajane has no counter to Sand World? That is absolutely absurd. If anything, Mirajane's MP pushing away water is more effective against sand than wind-powered swords that proved to be useless...

 

[The President]

To be honest though, I think you're overhyping Sand World. It's true that it's AoE is on city level, but if someone with Mirajane's AoE is not enough, who is? Unless you're telling me that only Jellal's Sema is big enough to scatter the sand? Laxus' nuke has only proven to scatter Ajeel's Sands of Death, so I guess he wouldn't be able to do anything against Sand World. Even Natsu's AoE isn't large enough.

I doubt even Jellal's nukes would be able to encompass the entirety of Sand World. Nothing in Fairy Tail has that level of AoE, not even Igneel/Acnologia roars.

The assumption that a named attack is better than an unnamed attack is problematic. I don't see how Nakagami Starlight has better feats because all it did was take out an already critically injured Ajeel.

Ajeel wasn't critically injured, he could clearly still fight with the wounds he had before Jupiter and Jupiter only gave him mild burns in his arm and shoulder.

You completely missed the point. Mirajane would fare better than Erza against Ajeel because she is a better match-up. Mirajane overrated? More like underrated. Even without hype, Mirajane is very well on Erza's level. Erza was sort of a disappointment in this arc. With feats I'd say she barely improved. Again, based on what can you say Juliet + Hynhe lacked in power? Because they were one-shotted by Mirajane?

The thing is, without any new armours the only way Erza can show that she improved is by how well she does against the opponents she is facing, since she doesn't have nukes or anything of the like. The fact that Erza faired better against Ajeel then Makarov deemed himself on top of Tartarus Erza and the gang would be able too speaks volumes about how much she improved.

Like I said, I acknowledge that Erza was saved by Jupiter Cannon. But you also have to take into account that she was magically weakened after enduring Ajeel's attacks because she couldn't use magic. Mirajane has no counter to Sand World? That is absolutely absurd. If anything, Mirajane's MP pushing away water is more effective against sand than magic wind-powered swords...

See no. Mirajane wasn't evaporating the regular sand below her feet with her MP so she most certainly ain't doing that to magic enhanced sand. Sand =/= Water.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

I doubt even Jellal's nukes would be able to encompass the entirety of Sand World. Nothing in Fairy Tail has that level of AoE, not even Igneel/Acnologia roars.

Exactly, so I don't see the point of discussing Ajeel's Sand World in this battle. It can obviously be dispersed. Unless you tell me it can't? I assure you if Mirajane isn't able to disperse it, nobody will.

Ajeel wasn't critically injured, he could clearly still fight with the wounds he had before Jupiter and Jupiter only gave him mild burns in his arm and shoulder.

Before the Jupiter Cannon hit? No. After? Yes.

Ajeel was completely defenseless against Nakagami Starlight as a result of being damaged by the Jupiter Cannon. You really can't get anymore injured than that...

Spoiler

The thing is, without any new armours the only way Erza can show that she improved is by how well she does against the opponents she is facing, since she doesn't have nukes or anything of the like. The fact that Erza faired better against Ajeel then Makarov deemed himself on top of Tartarus Erza and the gang would be able too speaks volumes about how much she improved.

I'm not saying she has to gain new attacks to show improvement. In fact, a better measurement of improvement is the outcome of a fight. Erza obviously had the most difficulty when defeating a Spriggsn compared to Laxus, TO Chelia, Jellal, Natsu, and arguably Gajeel. It was so close to the point that some may even consider it as a loss had the dynamics of the fight been different. Makarov deems everyone more powerful because he himself hasn't changed. I don't deny that Erza improved. What I deny is that Erza has improved a lot.

See no. Mirajane wasn't evaporating the regular sand below her feet with her MP so she most certainly ain't doing that to magic enhanced sand. Sand =/= Water.

Being able to evaporate/push the volume of water she showed against Juliet + Hynhe is definitely harder than scattering sand. Let me ask you a question. Would Erza be able to perform the same feat as Mirajane if she used her Wind God Sword or Water Sword on it? If your answer is no, then that just proves my point that Mirajane would fare better than Erza in that aspect.

**SIDENOTE: The distance between the two of them is 5m when they first start. Mirajane and Ajeel are practically standing right in front of each other. Because Mirajane is better than Ajeel at CQC, I don't see how she loses this.

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Honestly not trying to start a war here. But I now understand the users on this forum who complain Mirajane is underrated. It may be for different reasons, but I completely agree. It doesn't matter the amount of feats that Hiro Mashima gives her as he has given her many incredible feats already. It doesn't even matter what kind of conditions/rules are set in place, given that the ones here are definitely in favor of Mirajane. The fact is people will always have a perceived opinion about her without even considering the context of the match. I don't even think we're understanding just how overpowered Mirajane would be with unlimited Alegria Soul...

 

[The President]

Exactly, so I don't see the point of discussing Ajeel's Sand World in this battle. It can obviously be dispersed. Unless you tell me it can't? I assure you if Mirajane isn't able to disperse it, nobody will.

It can be temporarily dispersed but it reforms itself right after, Erzas futile attempt showed that. You are acting like Mira is the strongest character in the manga, why cant nobody disperse it if Mira can't? Not that anyone can disperse it for good, its only gone if Ajeel is defeated or runs out of stamina (ie defeated).

Before the Jupiter Cannon hit? No. After? Yes.

No, the dry blood on his stomach/lower chest area is from Erzas previous attack, not Jupiter. The blood around his face is also from Erzas attack, not Jupiter. The only damage that is a cause of Jupiter on his person is the burn on his arm and shoulders, and frankly its not that bad.

Spoiler

This was Ajeel before the Jupiter. It has no focus on his face though so he lacks the blood there in this specific panel (its there afterwards though).

I'm not saying she has to gain new attacks to show improvement. In fact, a better measurement of improvement is the outcome of a fight. Erza obviously had the most difficulty when defeating a Spriggsn compared to Laxus, TO Chelia, Jellal, Natsu, and arguably Gajeel. It was so close to the point that some may even consider it as a loss had the dynamics of the fight been different. Makarov deems everyone more powerful because he himself hasn't changed. I don't deny that Erza improved. What I deny is that Erza has improved a lot.

Yes to Laxus, Jellal and Natsu but no to TO Chelia and Gajeel. TO Chelia needed two sources of outside help (Ultear and Wendy) on top of having super effective magic against DiMaria. Gajeel would have received a horrible defeat had it not been for DF.

Depends on your definition of a lot. She has certainly gotten multiple times stronger as she is now arguably stronger then:

Makarov + Tartarus Erza + Tartarus Natsu + Tartarus Lucy + Tartarus Gray + Tartarus Wedy + Mest combined. That was a force that Makarov deemed stood no chance against someone of Ajeels caliber. Erza put up somewhat of a fight. Her power inflation is not as great as Laxuses or Natsus or even Mirajanes (who used to be far weaker then Erza back on Tartarus) per say, but its not as low as characters like Juvia or Lucy either.

Being able to evaporate/push the volume of water she showed against Juliet + Hynhe is definitely harder than scattering sand. Let me ask you a question. Would Erza be able to perform the same feat as Mirajane if she used her Wind God Sword or Water Sword on it? If your answer is no, then that just proves my point that Mirajane would fare better than Erza in that aspect.

The two are incomparable. Unless her MP can also evaporate sand this comparison is nonsensical. Her MP wouldn't simply perma push the sand around her, thats ridiculous. The sand around her was doing just fine in her battle with Juliet and Heine, they were fighting on a beach.

 

[Brandish μ]

The assumption that a named attack is better than an unnamed attack is problematic because that isn't always the case. I fail to see how Nakagami Starlight has better feats because all it did was take out an already critically injured Ajeel.

Okay put it this way... do named attacks generally outrank non-named attacks? Miralegria face-slammed the sword girls. I am sure if Mira actually has a named attack in this form it will be much stronger.

Starlight has the feat of finishing Ajeel, who is many leagues above someone like Juliet.

Assimilating with the sand won't work on Mirajane as she can use nukes in her Sitri Form.

So Sitri nukes all of the ground without knowing where Ajeel is? Ajeel probably won't ever do this, but he could hide within the sand should an opponent be so powerful. This is obviously not Mirajane.

You completely missed the point. Mirajane would fare better than Erza against Ajeel because she is a better match-up

Why is Mira a better match-up? I will say if we consider most of Erza's armours as cancelled by Ajeel's hax as a poor match-up I will agree with you. But as soon as Erza figured out Ajeel's sand she then was not a bad match up. When it comes to dispersing Ajeel's attacks, wind magic is the best counter. Mirajane has no wind magic. She's got AoE with nukes, albeit quite small ones in this arc.

Mirajane overrated? More like underrated. Even without hype, Mirajane is very well on Erza's level. Erza was sort of a disappointment in this arc. With feats I'd say she barely improved. Again, based on what can you say Juliet + Hynhe lacked in power? Because they were one-shotted by Mirajane?

How strong do you think someone like Ajeel is compared to like GMG Kagura/Minerva? Erza's magic she doesn't have the AoE to give a guide to how much she's grown. So you compare her against her opponent. Finishing Ajeel with Starlight is easily a better feat than defeating GMG Minerva. Unless you want to claim Erza's got Spriggan wrecking power in the GMG, which makes her the very strongest in the guild pre-skip by a good way.

No, Mirajane was not just given more MP

Miralegria's stats don't go up at all. Only the duration of the form. The only way the duration could possibly be extended is to give her more MP. So this scenario is effectively giving Mira more MP. Actually a better way to say it is Mira's MP container is fixed at full.

Physical endurance didn't change? Mirajane took out Eileen's subordinates with pure CQC. That is a prime example of excellent physical endurance, especially since the rules state that Mirajane can use Alegria Soul for an unlimited amount of time. The only way you can downplay this feat is if you considered Juliet + Hynhe fodders. Then that would be a circular argument on your part. You can't say Eileen's subordinates are fodders because they were taken out by Mirajane but them claim that Mirajane is weak for taking out fodders.

No that's physical strength. Physical endurance would be to continue with damage and fatigue. This is something Mirajane has always been behind Erza in. For Mira to get to Erza level in this, she would need the feats. I say this because Erza's endurance is among the best in the series.

I'm not downplaying Juliet or Hynhe. They're good enough to give SS Mira a run for her money. When Mira got serious it was over. Natsu did the same with Bakel; and he only used a punch to end it in Base. I think it's possibly for Bakel to be stronger than Juliet, feats wise there isn't much difference. But I'm not going to speculate as there isn't enough feats from both.

Like I said, I acknowledge that Erza was saved by Jupiter Cannon. But you also have to take into account that she was magically weakened after enduring Ajeel's attacks because she couldn't use magic. Mirajane has no counter to Sand World? That is absolutely absurd. If anything, Mirajane's MP pushing away water is more effective against sand than wind-powered swords that proved to be useless...

I do agree Ajeel also got help from Marin. But that doesn't change the fact that when Sandworld was used, it was over.

Mira doesn't have a counter at all. Suggesting she does is absurd. Sandworld is Magnolia+ in size, and it's Ajeel's best spell. Stopping it would require an equally powerful spell (might not need the full AoE, but will require enough power to stop it). What can Mira do here? Ie what spell does Mira have that rivals the power of Sandworld? She can probably nuke some of it, but the sand would immediately blow right back again. That happened to Erza and she was using wind magic.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

It can be temporarily dispersed but it reforms itself right after, Erzas futile attempt showed that. You are acting like Mira is the strongest character in the manga, why cant nobody disperse it if Mira can't? Not that anyone can disperse it for good, its only gone if Ajeel is defeated or runs out of stamina (ie defeated).

Like I said, the only reason Erza failed was because her AoE is very poor. It doesn't matter what attacks or armor she uses. She has one of the lowest AoE and Destructive Capacity in the series. Her attack potency makes up for it though.

In no way am I saying Mirajane is the strongest. What I said is that Mirajane has AoE comparable to that of high-tier characters like Laxus, Natsu, and Jellal. Her attacks may not match theirs but it's the closest thing you'll get. So my point still stands. If you're telling me Mirajane's AoE won't scatter the majority of the sand, then I don't see anybody else achieving such a feat.

In other words, Ajeel has hax magic and... Ajeel > All Characters (I do not stand by this).

No, the dry blood on his stomach/lower chest area is from Erzas previous attack, not Jupiter. The blood around his face is also from Erzas attack, not Jupiter. The only damage that is a cause of Jupiter on his person is the burn on his arm and shoulders, and frankly its not that bad.

Spoiler

This was Ajeel before the Jupiter. It has no focus on his face though so he lacks the blood there in this specific panel (its there afterwards though).

I know the blood on his stomach is from Erza's attack.

Wait what? The injuries on his upper chest area, arms, and face were all caused by the Jupiter Cannon... Erza was being choked the whole time. How would Erza be able to damage him? Why would Ajeel suddenly have blood appear randomly on his face? Here is a reference. I'm not asking you to read all this. Just scroll through the pictures and tell me how Erza caused all the injuries that you previously named.

Spoiler

The "blood" you're referencing on his face in the next few panels are more like scratches than anything.

Yes to Laxus, Jellal and Natsu but no to TO Chelia and Gajeel. TO Chelia needed two sources of outside help (Ultear and Wendy) on top of having super effective magic against DiMaria. Gajeel would have received a horrible defeat had it not been for DF.

Depends on your definition of a lot. She has certainly gotten multiple times stronger as she is now arguably stronger then:

Makarov + Tartarus Erza + Tartarus Natsu + Tartarus Lucy + Tartarus Gray + Tartarus Wedy + Mest combined. That was a force that Makarov deemed stood no chance against someone of Ajeels caliber. Erza put up somewhat of a fight. Her power inflation is not as great as Laxuses or Natsus or even Mirajanes (who used to be far weaker then Erza back on Tartarus) per say, but its not as low as characters like Juvia or Lucy either.

Well obviously TO Chelia and Gajeel couldn't have beaten their opponents without an outside source. Erza got help from an external source too... But the fact is that they still trained. Gajeel went from struggling with Torafusa to being Spriggan level. As for Chelia, even if we exclude Third Origin, she still improved a lot considering she was only Base Wendy's level before the timeskip (weaker than Ezel).

Keep in mind Erza went from being Kyōka + Demon Minerva's level (way higher than Torafusa) to Spriggan level (same with Gajeel). This is me considering that Bradman and Ajeel are on the same tier too. Others think Bradman is stronger which would make Erza seem even more lacking in improvement.

I highly doubt Erza got that much stronger. All of those characters you mentioned combined is more like Natsu's improvement. If anything, Erza is only on Jura's level.

The two are incomparable. Unless her MP can also evaporate sand this comparison is nonsensical. Her MP wouldn't simply perma push the sand around her, thats ridiculous. The sand around her was doing just fine in her battle with Juliet and Heine, they were fighting on a beach.

Was it evaporation? Or was the water being pushed back? If it was indeed evaporation, it would only support my claim. Evaporating a substance takes more energy than dispersing it.

As for her MP pushing the sand around her... That is ridiculous. The panel literally shows water being scattered, not forming a whirlpool.

Spoiler

Well of course the sand on the ground was doing just fine. There is a difference between sand particles in the air and a pile of sand on the ground.

Spoiler

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Okay put it this way... do named attacks generally outrank non-named attacks? Miralegria face-slammed the sword girls. I am sure if Mira actually has a named attack in this form it will be much stronger.

Starlight has the feat of finishing Ajeel, who is many leagues above someone like Juliet.

If you're comparing the same character, then yes. If you're comparing two different characters, then no. For example, it is valid to say that Erza's Nakagami Starlight is stronger than her average slash. But can you say Natsu's unnamed roar against Bluenote is weaker than Gray's Ice Make: Silver?

How do we know if Mirajane has a named attack or if that was one of her strongest attacks? Maybe she doesn't name her attacks. Thinking back, I don't even remember the last time she used a named attack besides Macro. Her Souls/Forms are basically her attacks. Once she enters Satan Soul: Sitri, she only uses unnamed nukes.

But again, is finishing off an already injured opponent more impressive than one-shotting a healthy one (granted that they are still weaker)? It could go either way. They may very will be the same feat.

So Sitri nukes all of the ground without knowing where Ajeel is? Ajeel probably won't ever do this, but he could hide within the sand should an opponent be so powerful. This is obviously not Mirajane.

Mirajane's AoE is just so large that Ajeel would still get caught if he were hiding in his sandstorm.

Spoiler

Besides, can't Mirajane still hit her opponents in mid-air with energy blasts like she did in the past?

Why is Mira a better match-up? I will say if we consider most of Erza's armours as cancelled by Ajeel's hax as a poor match-up I will agree with you. But as soon as Erza figured out Ajeel's sand she then was not a bad match up. When it comes to dispersing Ajeel's attacks, wind magic is the best counter. Mirajane has no wind magic. She's got AoE with nukes, albeit quite small ones in this arc.

Simple.

• Ajeel heavily relies on his AoE. Something that Mirajane actually has compared to Erza.
• Ajeel's only means of defense is Sand Body. Mirajane has nukes and magic attacks unlike Erza who uses physical attacks with her sword.
• Ajeel is capable of fighting in the air. Mirajane can fly unlike Erza who can only attack from the ground.

I'm not saying Erza was a poor match-up for Ajeel only because of her attacks didn't work on Ajeel. The reasons above are more than enough to emphasize that.

No, wind magic is not the best counter for Ajeel's attacks. It is only Erza's best counter for Ajeel's attacks. Mirajane doesn't need wind magic. She can disperse it with her MP, nukes, or fly through/away from it. By that logic, everyone who doesn't have Wind Magic would struggle more than Erza. The only reason Erza needs it is because that is all she has. Not all characters are the same.

How strong do you think someone like Ajeel is compared to like GMG Kagura/Minerva? Erza's magic she doesn't have the AoE to give a guide to how much she's grown. So you compare her against her opponent. Finishing Ajeel with Starlight is easily a better feat than defeating GMG Minerva. Unless you want to claim Erza's got Spriggan wrecking power in the GMG, which makes her the very strongest in the guild pre-skip by a good way.

GMG Kagura and Minerva are fodders compared to Ajeel. The reason being the timeskip difference. Like I mentioned to others, improvement is not all about AoE. It's a combination of all your stats. In fact, the easiest way to tell if someone improved is by how they fare against their opponents. Erza struggled immensely with Ajeel while most of the other characters were able to beat their respective Spriggans with relative ease (not to mention that many consider the other Spriggans stronger).

I honestly wouldn't go as far as to say Juliet + Hynhe is on GMG Kagura/Minerva's level. We're talking about the strongest "lackeys" of the Spriggan 12 who were created by the strongest female...

Miralegria's stats don't go up at all. Only the duration of the form. The only way the duration could possibly be extended is to give her more MP. So this scenario is effectively giving Mira more MP. Actually a better way to say it is Mira's MP container is fixed at full.

I disagree. If we merely compare Mirajane's base form performance to her Alegria form, there is an obvious difference in stats. You're telling me that Base Mirajane would stomp Eileen's subordinates the same way as her Alegria form? Hiro Mashima even went out of his way to portray Mirajane's power increasing when he made her evaporate/push the water aside.

MP only determines how much more magic they can use. Basically, it is a measure of how long they can last whilst using magic.

No that's physical strength. Physical endurance would be to continue with damage and fatigue. This is something Mirajane has always been behind Erza in. For Mira to get to Erza level in this, she would need the feats. I say this because Erza's endurance is among the best in the series.

I'm not downplaying Juliet or Hynhe. They're good enough to give SS Mira a run for her money. When Mira got serious it was over. Natsu did the same with Bakel; and he only used a punch to end it in Base. I think it's possibly for Bakel to be stronger than Juliet, feats wise there isn't much difference. But I'm not going to speculate as there isn't enough feats from both.

I don't see your point... Based on what has Mirajane always been behind Erza in endurance? Mirajane was never shown to have poor endurance. So if anything, this would be inconclusive. The conditions placed in this match literally negates Mirajane's depletion of energy in Alegria form. So you won't see her tired the way she was after defeating Juliet + Hynhe.

If we don't consider Juliet + Hynhe fodders, than I don't see how any of this would go against Mirajane. I disagree with Bakel being stronger than Juliet. Bakel may look tougher but he solely relies on his brute strength. Juliet would melt him instantly. But I'll leave it as that.

I do agree Ajeel also got help from Marin. But that doesn't change the fact that when Sandworld was used, it was over.

Mira doesn't have a counter at all. Suggesting she does is absurd. Sandworld is Magnolia+ in size, and it's Ajeel's best spell. Stopping it would require an equally powerful spell (might not need the full AoE, but will require enough power to stop it). What can Mira do here? Ie what spell does Mira have that rivals the power of Sandworld? She can probably nuke some of it, but the sand would immediately blow right back again. That happened to Erza and she was using wind magic.

The reason why it was over when Sand World was used is because Erza doesn't have a counter for it. I don't want to repeat myself but we can't apply all of Erza's disadvantages to Mirajane. That is unfair and is exactly why I say Mirajane is a better match-up.

So if Mirajane's AoE is not "large" enough to scatter part of Sand World, who's is? This is what I'm talking about when I say this attack is constantly being overrated. Mirajane doesn't need to disperse the whole Sand World. That would technically mean she nullified it. All she needs to do is scatter the majority of it so she can either see Ajeel or prepare an attack.

Erza cannot nuke anything because she doesn't have any nukes. Her "sword slash" proved futile because her AoE is just so low. Mirajane is different.

 

[Kay3795]

Using that form for as long as she wants is a tremendous -- & unrealistic -- boost to her stamina/mana & power.

Still, Ajeel wins. Too versatile with his sand & difficult to approach due to his speed & near-intangible body.

 

[Brandish μ]

If you're comparing the same character, then yes. If you're comparing two different characters, then no. For example, it is valid to say that Erza's Nakagami Starlight is stronger than her average slash. But can you say Natsu's unnamed roar against Bluenote is weaker than Gray's Ice Make: Silver?

I agree with that. But for the example, Natsu's roar is a named attack. It's named Fire Dragon's roar. We know this, or was that not a roar? I think most attacks that have names will definitely be said by the character the first time. After that it's Hiro's choice.

But that isn't what I'm getting at. I'm using common sense here specifically between Mira and Erza. Miralegria and Nakagami both drain their respective users' MP quickly. I'm giving Mira the benefit of the doubt that her MP is comparable to Erza's. Knowing both those 2 circumstances, plus the high tendency of named attacks > non-named attacks; then you get Miralegria's possible named attack to perhaps rival Erza's Starlight. If Miralegria doesn't have a named attack and is just a physical strength booster, then Mira will need feats against better opposition before getting into Starlight territory - which has been tested against strong opposition. Especially when we're talking about doing damage to Ajeel, a top tier among humans in terms of physicals.

How do we know if Mirajane has a named attack or if that was one of her strongest attacks? Maybe she doesn't name her attacks. Thinking back, I don't even remember the last time she used a named attack besides Macro. Her Souls/Forms are basically her attacks. Once she enters Satan Soul: Sitri, she only uses unnamed nukes.

But again, is finishing off an already injured opponent more impressive than one-shotting a healthy one (granted that they are still weaker)? It could go either way. They may very will be the same feat.

I sort of answered this above. It's very possible Miralegria doesn't have a named attack. That doesn't make it weak.

Mirajane's AoE is just so large that Ajeel would still get caught if he were hiding in his sandstorm.

Spoiler

Besides, can't Mirajane still hit her opponents in mid-air with energy blasts like she did in the past?

First of all Ajeel can be anywhere within Sandworld - however I will say that I'd concede he'd be close to Mira so that he himself can do damage. But secondly, the damage rating of that nuke is weak. Just look at Juliet and Hynhe. Ajeel would laugh that nuke off.

Simple.

• Ajeel heavily relies on his AoE. Something that Mirajane actually has compared to Erza.
• Ajeel's only means of defense is Sand Body. Mirajane has nukes and magic attacks unlike Erza who uses physical attacks with her sword.
• Ajeel is capable of fighting in the air. Mirajane can fly unlike Erza who can only attack from the ground.

I'm not saying Erza was a poor match-up for Ajeel only because of her attacks didn't work on Ajeel. The reasons above are more than enough to emphasize that.

No, wind magic is not the best counter for Ajeel's attacks. It is only Erza's best counter for Ajeel's attacks. Mirajane doesn't need wind magic. She can disperse it with her MP, nukes, or fly through/away from it. By that logic, everyone who doesn't have Wind Magic would struggle more than Erza. The only reason Erza needs it is because that is all she has. Not all characters are the same.

The 2 general rules of thumb I use for judging if someone is going to win are...
1) Being able to endure your opponents offence
2) Being able to damage your opponent so that they cannot continue.
I use these because they are what I believe is consistent for the majority of fights. Mira fails both those, and I don't think she goes close in either one.

If comparing Mira and Erza in how they fight Ajeel, I'll definitely agree to Mira taking AoE. But is that AoE meaningful at all? The nuke actually needs to hurt Ajeel. So to be honest, Mira's effective AoE is at CQC level if we think Miralegria can do reasonable damage on Ajeel (bit of a reach personally). E.g Igneel's got a mountain sized roar, but in a fight against Acnologia his effective AoE was also at CQC level.

Mira flying out of Sandworld is the only way she gets out of it. Her nukes won't disperse Sandworld's sand for more than a few seconds. It is stated that Wind Magic has the advantage over Sand magic in that it can blow it away. I do believe it would be the best way to counter sand (to blow it away). It's not the only way, but the best. Water magic is the best way to quell Fire magic. Other magic can quell fire, but water would have greater efficiency.

GMG Kagura and Minerva are fodders compared to Ajeel. The reason being the timeskip difference. Like I mentioned to others, improvement is not all about AoE. It's a combination of all your stats. In fact, the easiest way to tell if someone improved is by how they fare against their opponents. Erza struggled immensely with Ajeel while most of the other characters were able to beat their respective Spriggans with relative ease (not to mention that many consider the other Spriggans stronger).

I honestly wouldn't go as far as to say Juliet + Hynhe is on GMG Kagura/Minerva's level. We're talking about the strongest "lackeys" of the Spriggan 12 who were created by the strongest female...

With that in mind, don't you think Erza improved a lot, like more than barely? This is why I brought the question up. X791 Erza is stronger than GMG Kagura, but it's not by much really. No one at Erza's level beat a Spriggan with ease. Natsu/Jellal are simply superior to Erza, that's all. Natsu had help, and Neinhart decided to create Simon against Jellal.

I disagree. If we merely compare Mirajane's base form performance to her Alegria form, there is an obvious difference in stats. You're telling me that Base Mirajane would stomp Eileen's subordinates the same way as her Alegria form? Hiro Mashima even went out of his way to portray Mirajane's power increasing when he made her evaporate/push the water aside.

MP only determines how much more magic they can use. Basically, it is a measure of how long they can last whilst using magic.

I think we're talking about different things. I'm talking about the scenario's Miralegria vs manga Miralegria. That's why I mentioned that Mira is inflated in terms of MP for this scenario.

Her takeover's definitely improve Mira's durability. It's like Erza using an armour.

I don't see your point... Based on what has Mirajane always been behind Erza in endurance? Mirajane was never shown to have poor endurance. So if anything, this would be inconclusive. The conditions placed in this match literally negates Mirajane's depletion of energy in Alegria form. So you won't see her tired the way she was after defeating Juliet + Hynhe.

If we don't consider Juliet + Hynhe fodders, than I don't see how any of this would go against Mirajane. I disagree with Bakel being stronger than Juliet. Bakel may look tougher but he solely relies on his brute strength. Juliet would melt him instantly. But I'll leave it as that.

Um, like the whole manga. When it comes to taking hits, and continuing, Erza's feats are definitely above Mira's. Erza's basically like Natsu in this regard.

Yes the scenario gives Mira more endurance magically, but her body can still be hurt. Someone getting KO'd is a physical thing usually, their magic could be at full.

The reason why it was over when Sand World was used is because Erza doesn't have a counter for it. I don't want to repeat myself but we can't apply all of Erza's disadvantages to Mirajane. That is unfair and is exactly why I say Mirajane is a better match-up.

So if Mirajane's AoE is not "large" enough to scatter part of Sand World, who's is? This is what I'm talking about when I say this attack is constantly being overrated. Mirajane doesn't need to disperse the whole Sand World. That would technically mean she nullified it. All she needs to do is scatter the majority of it so she can either see Ajeel or prepare an attack.

Erza cannot nuke anything because she doesn't have any nukes. Her "sword slash" proved futile because her AoE is just so low. Mirajane is different.

I'd agree to that if Mira had a logical counter. Flying out is actually the best suggestion. Ajeel can still hit her with sand bullets in the storm, which could knock her down.

Mira's AoE isn't a top tier. Than nuke of hers was not even on Laxus' level. The big difference is potency, Mira's aren't potent at all. Natsu's roar AoE is probably better. Jellal certainly has Mira beaten.

 

[The President]

Like I said, the only reason Erza failed was because her AoE is very poor. It doesn't matter what attacks or armor she uses. She has one of the lowest AoE and Destructive Capacity in the series. Her attack potency makes up for it though.

No, her AoE was just fine. The problem was in the fact that the sand instantly covered the area again after being dispersed aka its impossible to perminetaly disperse the sand.

In no way am I saying Mirajane is the strongest. What I said is that Mirajane has AoE comparable to that of high-tier characters like Laxus, Natsu, and Jellal. Her attacks may not match theirs but it's the closest thing you'll get. So my point still stands. If you're telling me Mirajane's AoE won't scatter the majority of the sand, then I don't see anybody else achieving such a feat.

Her Alegria form doesn't have any nukes to speak of, based on what is her AoE close to the likes of Laxus and Narsu? Her MP being hot is not any sort of proof of that.

In other words, Ajeel has hax magic and... Ajeel > All Characters (I do not stand by this).

No because you don't need to scatter the sand to defeat Ajeel.

Wait what? The injuries on his upper chest area, arms, and face were all caused by the Jupiter Cannon... Erza was being choked the whole time. How would Erza be able to damage him? Why would Ajeel suddenly have blood appear randomly on his face? Here is a reference. I'm not asking you to read all this. Just scroll through the pictures and tell me how Erza caused all the injuries that you previously named.

No, his upper chest is also covered in blood from before in the very scan that I showed you. Its not his upper chest that you mean its his shoulders. One of his arms is also burned but not the entierty of it, moreso in the bicep area. His face is completely fine, that one blood stain on his right lip is there before as well, its of him spitting out a lot of blood. If you were the erase that injury on his stomach/chest area then it really wouldn't look bad. Jupiter really didn't do that much damage to him, it woudnt even make sense for Erza to exhaust herself MID-AIR just to attack someone who is in critical condition.

Well obviously TO Chelia and Gajeel couldn't have beaten their opponents without an outside source. Erza got help from an external source too... But the fact is that they still trained. Gajeel went from struggling with Torafusa to being Spriggan level. As for Chelia, even if we exclude Third Origin, she still improved a lot considering she was only Base Wendy's level before the timeskip (weaker than Ezel).

Chelia hardly improved at all. She went from being as strong as base Wendy in GMG to as strong as current base Wendy, who is still basically fodder for Bluenote. Gajeels power inflation is roughly equal to Erzas.

Keep in mind Erza went from being Kyōka + Demon Minerva's level (way higher than Torafusa) to Spriggan level (same with Gajeel). This is me considering that Bradman and Ajeel are on the same tier too. Others think Bradman is stronger which would make Erza seem even more lacking in improvement.

+ Demon Minerva? No, she went from Kyouka level to Spriggan level, Torafusa is almost as strong as Kyouka. Her fighting Neo Minerva and then fighting Kyouka later down the line is not the same thing as her fighting the two at once.

I highly doubt Erza got that much stronger. All of those characters you mentioned combined is more like Natsu's improvement. If anything, Erza is only on Jura's level.

Natsu improved a lot more then that lol. He went from being Tartarus Natsu (obviously) to being able to one-shot all the characters I mentioned with one basic roar. Erza's improvement is also superior then that. Erza >>>> Makarov no matter how you put it, the latter outright claimed he didn't stand a chance even with those reinforcements while Erza put up a decent fight.

Was it evaporation? Or was the water being pushed back? If it was indeed evaporation, it would only support my claim. Evaporating a substance takes more energy than dispersing it.

Sure but she's not evaporating sand nor is she pushing it back.

Well of course the sand on the ground was doing just fine. There is a difference between sand particles in the air and a pile of sand on the ground.

Yeah the difference is that the sand particles in the air that we speak of is imbueded with magic, making it stronger.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

I agree with that. But for the example, Natsu's roar is a named attack. It's named Fire Dragon's roar. We know this, or was that not a roar? I think most attacks that have names will definitely be said by the character the first time. After that it's Hiro's choice.

But that isn't what I'm getting at. I'm using common sense here specifically between Mira and Erza. Miralegria and Nakagami both drain their respective users' MP quickly. I'm giving Mira the benefit of the doubt that her MP is comparable to Erza's. Knowing both those 2 circumstances, plus the high tendency of named attacks > non-named attacks; then you get Miralegria's possible named attack to perhaps rival Erza's Starlight. If Miralegria doesn't have a named attack and is just a physical strength booster, then Mira will need feats against better opposition before getting into Starlight territory - which has been tested against strong opposition. Especially when we're talking about doing damage to Ajeel, a top tier among humans in terms of physicals.

It was a roar. But was it Fire Dragon's roar? That was never stated and I won't assume. By that logic, can we say this is Fire Dragon's Iron Fist?

Spoiler

But since you claim it wasn't just a regular roar, there is nothing I can say that will change your mind.

Using common sense won't work here. Saying that Erza's named attack has to be stronger than a casual attack from Mirajane is quite baseless. How do we know that Mirajane's Alegria Form isn't actually stronger than Erza's Nakagami Armor? Hiro Mashima never made Erza evaporate/push things aside. He did it with Mirajane for a reason.

The only feat here is that Erza finished off an already injured Ajeel with Nakagami Starlight while Mirajane one-shotted two lackeys with a "casual" attack. This is pretty much all we have that is fact.

I sort of answered this above. It's very possible Miralegria doesn't have a named attack. That doesn't make it weak.

This is my point.

First of all Ajeel can be anywhere within Sandworld - however I will say that I'd concede he'd be close to Mira so that he himself can do damage. But secondly, the damage rating of that nuke is weak. Just look at Juliet and Hynhe. Ajeel would laugh that nuke off.

But was it a direct hit (bottom panel)?

Spoiler

My answer is no. The purpose of that attack was to stall and get Lisanna out of harm's way. That doesn't even matter, to be honest. If Mirajane were to go against a Spriggan, she would repeatedly spam those nukes instead of just standing in place. And who said she couldn't charge it longer? Maybe she didn't feel the need to do so on Juliet + Hynhe. And yes, she has enough MP for such a feat. After all, she used Alegria Soul immediately after that.

The 2 general rules of thumb I use for judging if someone is going to win are...
1) Being able to endure your opponents offence
2) Being able to damage your opponent so that they cannot continue.
I use these because they are what I believe is consistent for the majority of fights. Mira fails both those, and I don't think she goes close in either one.

If comparing Mira and Erza in how they fight Ajeel, I'll definitely agree to Mira taking AoE. But is that AoE meaningful at all? The nuke actually needs to hurt Ajeel. So to be honest, Mira's effective AoE is at CQC level if we think Miralegria can do reasonable damage on Ajeel (bit of a reach personally). E.g Igneel's got a mountain sized roar, but in a fight against Acnologia his effective AoE was also at CQC level.

Mira flying out of Sandworld is the only way she gets out of it. Her nukes won't disperse Sandworld's sand for more than a few seconds. It is stated that Wind Magic has the advantage over Sand magic in that it can blow it away. I do believe it would be the best way to counter sand (to blow it away). It's not the only way, but the best. Water magic is the best way to quell Fire magic. Other magic can quell fire, but water would have greater efficiency.

You may see Mirajane failing both of your general rules but I don't. She has never shown inferior attack or durability/endurance when compared to Erza. In fact, Mirajane arguably had better feats than Erza in this arc. Don't get me wrong, Erza may prove otherwise but until she makes a comeback, her feats against Ajeel were somewhat lacking.

AoE is very meaningful. It is very hard for one to change the nature of their attacks. By this, I'm talking about AoE. But attack potency? Not that hard. The mage just needs to increase their MP or put more magic power into their attack. Remember...

• Size ≠ Power
• Power = MP

Sure it might wear them out faster but Mirajane doesn't need to worry about that when she uses Alegria Soul here because the rules state she can use it for as long as she wants.

With AoE like Mirajane she can gain enough time to prepare another attack with Ajeel visible. Every second counts in a fight. I still disagree with wind being the best way to counter sand. There are plenty of other ways that are just as good. As for what element would be best against fire, that is subjective especially when we're dealing with a manga. Wind may work just as well in the series. It is also widely known that sand is useful when putting out fires.

With that in mind, don't you think Erza improved a lot, like more than barely? This is why I brought the question up. X791 Erza is stronger than GMG Kagura, but it's not by much really. No one at Erza's level beat a Spriggan with ease. Natsu/Jellal are simply superior to Erza, that's all. Natsu had help, and Neinhart decided to create Simon against Jellal.

I wouldn't say she improved a lot. When I say how much a character improved, I compare it to everyone else. The power inflation is so high that even if you are stronger than your previous self, you still may not be on the level of your guildmates/enemies. As far as I'm concerned, Erza improved less than Natsu, Laxus, Jellal, Gajeel, and arguably Gray/Lucy. That doesn't mean that all these characters are stronger than her. It just means they trained more. Besides, Erza was stronger than the majority of these characters back in Tartaros.

I think we're talking about different things. I'm talking about the scenario's Miralegria vs manga Miralegria. That's why I mentioned that Mira is inflated in terms of MP for this scenario.

Her takeover's definitely improve Mira's durability. It's like Erza using an armour.

Oh, well my bad. Yeah, the rules help Mirajane in MP only. But her Alegria form boosts most of her stats.

Um, like the whole manga. When it comes to taking hits, and continuing, Erza's feats are definitely above Mira's. Erza's basically like Natsu in this regard.

Yes the scenario gives Mira more endurance magically, but her body can still be hurt. Someone getting KO'd is a physical thing usually, their magic could be at full.

But would you say Tartaros Natsu has more endurance than Tartaros Gray? I would disagree. Just because one has more plot armor (for obvious reasons), that doesn't mean they will always endure more in a fight. Gray has endured countless fights compared to Natsu even though he gets less screen time. Gray + Natsu is pretty much the equivalent of Erza + Mirajane.

I agree that Mirajane can still be hurt in this fight. My point was that the rules negate her endurance when dealing with fatigue (only in Alegria form). But as for how long she can stay in a fight whilst getting damaged, that depends on durability. Nothing so far has shown that she has poor durability.

I'd agree to that if Mira had a logical counter. Flying out is actually the best suggestion. Ajeel can still hit her with sand bullets in the storm, which could knock her down.

Mira's AoE isn't a top tier. Than nuke of hers was not even on Laxus' level. The big difference is potency, Mira's aren't potent at all. Natsu's roar AoE is probably better. Jellal certainly has Mira beaten.

Even if Mirajane loses to Laxus, Natsu, and Jellal, she still had shown one of the best besides those top-tier characters. It would be utterly ridiculous to say that only Laxus, Natsu, and Jellal can beat Ajeel. I disagree on Mirajane not having high attack potency, but its your opinion.

---

No, her AoE was just fine. The problem was in the fact that the sand instantly covered the area again after being dispersed aka its impossible to perminetaly disperse the sand.

You don't need to permanently scatter the sandstorm though. That is my point. Otherwise, I would say nullifying it. All she needs to do is have a clear shot at Ajeel and prepare another attack which she can clearly do.

Her Alegria form doesn't have any nukes to speak of, based on what is her AoE close to the likes of Laxus and Narsu? Her MP being hot is not any sort of proof of that.

When I say AoE, I'm talking her all together. She would use Satan Soul: Sitri for attack and Alegria Soul for visibility. It's very possible that Mirajane can change her forms just like Erza's requip.

No because you don't need to scatter the sand to defeat Ajeel.

Exactly my point. So why do we all keep bringing up Sand World like Mirajane is going to lose because of it?

No, his upper chest is also covered in blood from before in the very scan that I showed you. Its not his upper chest that you mean its his shoulders. One of his arms is also burned but not the entierty of it, moreso in the bicep area. His face is completely fine, that one blood stain on his right lip is there before as well, its of him spitting out a lot of blood. If you were the erase that injury on his stomach/chest area then it really wouldn't look bad. Jupiter really didn't do that much damage to him, it woudnt even make sense for Erza to exhaust herself MID-AIR just to attack someone who is in critical condition.

Since when was there the blood on his face before Jupiter Cannon hit? All he had was scratches. And they look totally different from the blood we saw after the Jupiter Cannon hit.

Erza used one of her strongest attacks to finish off someone in critical condition because she didn't want to risk losing. In actuality, she knew very well that if the fight lasted any longer, she would lose due to having inferior MP when compared to a Spriggan.

Chelia hardly improved at all. She went from being as strong as base Wendy in GMG to as strong as current base Wendy, who is still basically fodder for Bluenote. Gajeels power inflation is roughly equal to Erzas.

I disagree. Erza is the one who hasn't shown much improvement. Gajeel did. Never would have thought that he would defeat a Spriggan.

+ Demon Minerva? No, she went from Kyouka level to Spriggan level, Torafusa is almost as strong as Kyouka. Her fighting Neo Minerva and then fighting Kyouka later down the line is not the same thing as her fighting the two at once.

She used all her MP to defeat Demon Minerva and Kyōka without much time to rest. So why should I exclude Minerva? But fine, I will agree to say that Erza is on Kyōka's level. That is still pretty impressive considering Torafusa is 2x weaker than Kyōka. To put into perspective, that is almost the same difference between Mard Geer and Kyōka.

Natsu improved a lot more then that lol. He went from being Tartarus Natsu (obviously) to being able to one-shot all the characters I mentioned with one basic roar. Erza's improvement is also superior then that. Erza >>>> Makarov no matter how you put it, the latter outright claimed he didn't stand a chance even with those reinforcements while Erza put up a decent fight.

I don't think so. If you factor in the LFD/DF form of Natsu and DeS form of Gray, then Natsu didn't improve as much as you're thinking.

As for Erza, where do you put her? Jura's level? Hyberion's level? Higher than all 4 Gods of Ishgar combined? Jellal's level?

Sure but she's not evaporating sand nor is she pushing it back.

I don't see why not.

Yeah the difference is that the sand particles in the air that we speak of is imbueded with magic, making it stronger.

So? Mirajane can still disperse what Erza scattered. Actually, since Mirajane has more AoE than Erza, she would be able to move more sand than that. It may not be on the level of regular sand (as we saw with Juliet + Hynhe), but enough for her to attack/escape.

 

[The President]

You don't need to permanently scatter the sandstorm though. That is my point. Otherwise, I would say nullifying it. All she needs to do is have a clear shot at Ajeel and prepare another attack which she can clearly do.

You misunderstand how Ajeel utilizes Sand World. He doesn't just walk in Sand World, he assimilates with the sand and exposes himself only when he attacks. If she scatters it temporarily there won't be anything there for her to nuke.

When I say AoE, I'm talking her all together. She would use Satan Soul: Sitri for attack and Alegria Soul for visibility. It's very possible that Mirajane can change her forms just like Erza's requip.

She can't use her forms instantaneously.

Exactly my point. So why do we all keep bringing up Sand World like Mirajane is going to lose because of it?

Because Mira doesn't have what it takes to defeat him w/Sand World, or has not shown it yet at the very least.

Since when was there the blood on his face before Jupiter Cannon hit? All he had was scratches. And they look totally different from the blood we saw after the Jupiter Cannon hit.

I can't post pictures right now, re-read the chapter. I'll post it later if you really need me to do it. Either way though, why are we debating this? An extra stain of blood on his lip doesn't change much if at all. His shoulders, a part of his arm and his right lip (going with your take on the situation) were hurt, that's not much. You can rip someone's arm off entirely and they could still fight. Jupiter chipped away like a quarter of Ajeels HP at best.

Erza used one of her strongest attacks to finish off someone in critical condition because she didn't want to risk losing. In actuality, she knew very well that if the fight lasted any longer, she would lose due to having inferior MP when compared to a Spriggan.

If Ajeel was in critical condition the fight would have been over without her having to have used Nagakami Armour. If Ajeel could still fight then he wasnt in critical condition.

I disagree. Erza is the one who hasn't shown much improvement. Gajeel did. Never would have thought that he would defeat a Spriggan.

He defeated a Spriggan thanks to DF, which doesn't qualify as a part of his improvement because he can't use it by himself.

She used all her MP to defeat Demon Minerva and Kyōka without much time to rest. So why should I exclude Minerva? But fine, I will agree to say that Erza is on Kyōka's level. That is still pretty impressive considering Torafusa is 2x weaker than Kyōka. To put into perspective, that is almost the same difference between Mard Geer and Kyōka.

She had enough time of rest inbetween. Kyouka was also tortured by Mard Geer, at the end of the day these things didn't really impact the battle (unless you care to prove otherwise). Absolutely not, I have no idea where you got the x2 from. Torafusa is nearly just as impressive as Kyouka was with a far superior defence and an arguably equally impressive curse in Tenchi Kaimei. Mard is far more then just x2 Kyoukas level. Even base Mard is superior to Kyouka, let alone a fully powered one.

And I want to stress that fighting two consecutive battles is not the same as fighting those two characters at the same time. Not even close. If two characters are capable of giving a single character a High-Diff battle each, then together they would stomp/easy-diff.

I don't think so. If you factor in the LFD/DF form of Natsu and DeS form of Gray, then Natsu didn't improve as much as you're thinking.

Why would we include DF?

As for Erza, where do you put her? Jura's level? Hyberion's level? Higher than all 4 Gods of Ishgar combined? Jellal's level?

Above Hyberion but below all the GoI combined.

I don't see why not.

Because sand doesn't evaporate mate, it gets hotter. She's probably just going to be making things worse for herself. The fact that nothing happened to the sand around her is proof that nothing is going to be happening to Sand World.

 

[Aizen]

Fair enough. We'll just disagree here.

To be honest though, I think you're overhyping Sand World. It's true that it's AoE is on city level, but if someone with Mirajane's AoE is not enough, who is? Unless you're telling me that only Jellal's Sema is big enough to scatter the sand? Laxus' nuke has only proven to scatter Ajeel's Sands of Death, so I guess he wouldn't be able to do anything against Sand World. Even Natsu's AoE isn't large enough.

My point here is that size isn't necessarily a good indication of persistence.



The assumption that a named attack is better than an unnamed attack is problematic because that isn't always the case. I fail to see how Nakagami Starlight has better feats because all it did was take out an already critically injured Ajeel.



You're technically correct here. I assumed that Mirajane could keep her attacks (nukes) in Alegria form but it hasn't been proven so I won't speculate. As for Mirajane defeating Juliet + Hynhe, I know it was pure physical strength. It is true Ajeel is very good at evading, but Mirajane is better than Erza in that aspect. So if Erza can perform such a feat, so can Mirajane. Assimilating with the sand won't work on Mirajane as she can use nukes in her Sitri Form. And Sand World? Once again, overhyped.



You completely missed the point. Mirajane would fare better than Erza against Ajeel because she is a better match-up. Mirajane overrated? More like underrated. Even without hype, Mirajane is very well on Erza's level. Erza was sort of a disappointment in this arc. With feats I'd say she barely improved. Again, based on what can you say Juliet + Hynhe lacked in power? Because they were one-shotted by Mirajane?

No, Mirajane was not just given more MP. She clearly had enhanced attack and speed. Physical endurance didn't change? Mirajane took out Eileen's subordinates with pure CQC. That is a prime example of excellent physical endurance, especially since the rules state that Mirajane can use Alegria Soul for an unlimited amount of time. The only way you can downplay this feat is if you considered Juliet + Hynhe fodders. Then that would be a circular argument on your part. You can't say Eileen's subordinates are fodders because they were taken out by Mirajane but them claim that Mirajane is weak for taking out fodders.

Like I said, I acknowledge that Erza was saved by Jupiter Cannon. But you also have to take into account that she was magically weakened after enduring Ajeel's attacks because she couldn't use magic. Mirajane has no counter to Sand World? That is absolutely absurd. If anything, Mirajane's MP pushing away water is more effective against sand than wind-powered swords that proved to be useless...

I honestly think there are several characters with better aoe feats than Mira. Laxus,Jellal,Natsu,and basically every dragon to name a few. Whether some of their aoe's would be enough to dissipate Sand World is hard to say. My point is Mira is strong and her aoe attacks do seem to be larger than Erza, that and her ability to fly i suppose make her a little better matchup against Ajeel. Still all we have seen of Alegria is that it gives her a magic power boost and a strength boost. Neither of which helps her that much against Sand World imo. I think people underrate Ajeel at times, this guy has combat skill,a hard to even damage Sand Body,and an insane aoe spell Sand World that blocks out all vision for opponents, while allowing him to merge with the storm and see them just fine. On top of that it's the size of Magnolia and reaches into the sky. Perhaps there are people who do underrate Mira, but i am not one of them, i rate her as close to or on par with Erza, a fair ranking for her considering her inferior feats to Erza. I give her a little bit of slack due to her not being one of the main characters like Erza here, plus her portrayal puts her right about on Erza's level as well imo. I agree it's fine to disagree here though.

 

[Brandish μ]

It was a roar. But was it Fire Dragon's roar? That was never stated and I won't assume. By that logic, can we say this is Fire Dragon's Iron Fist?

Spoiler

But since you claim it wasn't just a regular roar, there is nothing I can say that will change your mind.

Natsu uses Fire Dragon Slaying Magic. When he projects fire it generally imitates the action of a dragon, which is essentially the mechanics of DS magic. You don't need Hiro to hand feed you spell names when you've seen this magic for 400+ chapters. And that is not even the first time Hiro hasn't had Natsu yell out FD Roar when he's done a roar. His most used spell is probably FD Iron Fist, and he's used a few of those since the time skip but I only recall his saying the name once (against Arlock).

In the silent chapter I would say Natsu is either using FD Claw, or FD Crimson Lotus exploding flame.

Natsu has 2 roars right now. FDK and FD. I claim it's FD roar. You call it an unnamed roar, which is incorrect. It is a named attack/spell.

Using common sense won't work here. Saying that Erza's named attack has to be stronger than a casual attack from Mirajane is quite baseless. How do we know that Mirajane's Alegria Form isn't actually stronger than Erza's Nakagami Armor? Hiro Mashima never made Erza evaporate/push things aside. He did it with Mirajane for a reason.

The only feat here is that Erza finished off an already injured Ajeel with Nakagami Starlight while Mirajane one-shotted two lackeys with a "casual" attack. This is pretty much all we have that is fact.

The common sense I used falls in line with what we know about magic. I'm not saying I'm correct for sure, but to make an assumption using that logic it is fine, and certainly not baseless - it's based on what we've seen of their 2 forms, and what I believe about Mira and Erza in terms of MP.

Miralegria isn't casual at all. I don't think I've ever seen a casual trump card.

Hiro never gave Laxus an MP feat either. But on feats he'd easily account for Mirajane. Erza has better combat feats than Mirajane, so there's that, if you think that matters.

Yes that's correct, they are the only 2 feats that matter. Erza's are better currently. Mira's can get better by performing against a Spriggan, right now they're capped by Juliet's level.

But was it a direct hit (bottom panel)?

Yes.

Spoiler

My answer is no. The purpose of that attack was to stall and get Lisanna out of harm's way. That doesn't even matter, to be honest. If Mirajane were to go against a Spriggan, she would repeatedly spam those nukes instead of just standing in place. And who said she couldn't charge it longer? Maybe she didn't feel the need to do so on Juliet + Hynhe. And yes, she has enough MP for such a feat. After all, she used Alegria Soul immediately after that.

But how strong are these nukes? This is Ajeel here. If Mira could spam Jupiter then that would be different. But she's spamming attacks that Juliet and Hynhe can tank rather well.

You may see Mirajane failing both of your general rules but I don't. She has never shown inferior attack or durability/endurance when compared to Erza. In fact, Mirajane arguably had better feats than Erza in this arc. Don't get me wrong, Erza may prove otherwise but until she makes a comeback, her feats against Ajeel were somewhat lacking.

Erza's ahead based on feats, in all attack, durability and endurance. Durability isn't so much of an issue, Erza's isn't much above Mira's. But in the other 2 she's definitely ahead. As for Mira's feats, I'm not going to hype 2 subordinates to the point that it's arguably better to defeat them then beat Ajeel with help.

AoE is very meaningful. It is very hard for one to change the nature of their attacks. By this, I'm talking about AoE. But attack potency? Not that hard. The mage just needs to increase their MP or put more magic power into their attack. Remember...

• Size ≠ Power
• Power = MP

Sure it might wear them out faster but Mirajane doesn't need to worry about that when she uses Alegria Soul here because the rules state she can use it for as long as she wants.

With AoE like Mirajane she can gain enough time to prepare another attack with Ajeel visible. Every second counts in a fight. I still disagree with wind being the best way to counter sand. There are plenty of other ways that are just as good. As for what element would be best against fire, that is subjective especially when we're dealing with a manga. Wind may work just as well in the series. It is also widely known that sand is useful when putting out fires.

If Mira puts more MP in both the AoE and power would increase. But can she, or has she shown the ability to generate more power with the nukes? If she can, why didn't she drop a bigger one on Juliet/Hynhe? Maybe she just doesn't have strong nukes, I'd actually bet on that to be the case.

Miralegria doesn't have a nuke, yet.

Even if Ajeel doesn't use Sandworld the nukes still need to be strong enough to do damage. Wind is stated as a weakness to sand. There might be more weaknesses to sand, but to disperse sand I can't imagine anything being better than wind. Water was used against Wahl's weakbots, when Gray's ice was struggling. When AF was present at the GMG, Evergreen (IIRC) stated there was no water DS, implying the elemental advantage water has. These type of advantages aren't a big theme in the manga, but it's still stated that Water/Wind are effective against sand.

I wouldn't say she improved a lot. When I say how much a character improved, I compare it to everyone else. The power inflation is so high that even if you are stronger than your previous self, you still may not be on the level of your guildmates/enemies. As far as I'm concerned, Erza improved less than Natsu, Laxus, Jellal, Gajeel, and arguably Gray/Lucy. That doesn't mean that all these characters are stronger than her. It just means they trained more. Besides, Erza was stronger than the majority of these characters back in Tartaros.

Even if Erza's relative improvement is less than Natsu's it's still vast improvement. What defines improvement for Erza? How stronger she's got compared to X791 Erza, or how much gains she's made compared to other FT characters. I roll with the former, you're thinking more the latter I assume.

But would you say Tartaros Natsu has more endurance than Tartaros Gray? I would disagree. Just because one has more plot armor (for obvious reasons), that doesn't mean they will always endure more in a fight. Gray has endured countless fights compared to Natsu even though he gets less screen time. Gray + Natsu is pretty much the equivalent of Erza + Mirajane.

I agree that Mirajane can still be hurt in this fight. My point was that the rules negate her endurance when dealing with fatigue (only in Alegria form). But as for how long she can stay in a fight whilst getting damaged, that depends on durability. Nothing so far has shown that she has poor durability.

Natsu has greater endurance than Gray, always has and will. I never understand why plot armour is the go-to reason for someone enduring things. It just means Natsu (or whoever you want to assign the plot armour to) just has endurance at the level seen on panel.

If we allow Mira's durability to be equal to Erza's (and this is generous) then Ajeel can certainly damage Mirajane. I look at it differently, there's nothing so far to suggest Mira has great durability.

Even if Mirajane loses to Laxus, Natsu, and Jellal, she still had shown one of the best besides those top-tier characters. It would be utterly ridiculous to say that only Laxus, Natsu, and Jellal can beat Ajeel. I disagree on Mirajane not having high attack potency, but its your opinion.

Well I don't think having high AoE is all that matters to beating Ajeel and I've never said that. That's the angle you're using, to try and say Mira is better than Erza for this fight. Erza lacks AoE, but she still hurt Ajeel. Mira's got large AoE, but it's leaving scratches on Juliet tiers.

The only potent nukes so far are Natsu's. Laxus' and August' are probably potent if we accept hype.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

You misunderstand how Ajeel utilizes Sand World. He doesn't just walk in Sand World, he assimilates with the sand and exposes himself only when he attacks. If she scatters it temporarily there won't be anything there for her to nuke.

So is he invulnerable when he assimilates with the sand? You act like he cannot be damaged when he is in his sandstorm. Physical objects like Erza would fail but not Mirajane's magic attacks.

She can't use her forms instantaneously.

I never said she could. But she doesn't need to. Erza's requip is not instantaneous either.

Because Mira doesn't have what it takes to defeat him w/Sand World, or has not shown it yet at the very least.

In that case tell me what it takes to defeat Ajeel. Name a character or explain why Mirajane couldn't defeat him.

I can't post pictures right now, re-read the chapter. I'll post it later if you really need me to do it. Either way though, why are we debating this? An extra stain of blood on his lip doesn't change much if at all. His shoulders, a part of his arm and his right lip (going with your take on the situation) were hurt, that's not much. You can rip someone's arm off entirely and they could still fight. Jupiter chipped away like a quarter of Ajeels HP at best.

I already read the chapter. So when you have time, please post the scans and tell me which part you're referencing. We're debating this because I claim that Ajeel was in critical condition when Erza finished him off. You denied that and said Ajeel didn't have any severe injuries. The stain of blood isn't the focus of this debate. Ajeel's condition is. You say that the Jupiter Cannon took out a quarter of Ajeel's HP at best which is perfectly fine with me. Combine that with other injuries he received throughout the fight as well as fatigue. He is surely not in good shape.

If Ajeel was in critical condition the fight would have been over without her having to have used Nagakami Armour. If Ajeel could still fight then he wasnt in critical condition.

Critical condition does not mean one is immobilized or on the verge of death... Laxus was in critical condition after fighting Wahl, yet he was still able to move.

He defeated a Spriggan thanks to DF, which doesn't qualify as a part of his improvement because he can't use it by himself.

To be fair though, Gajeel couldn't do anything to Bradman because his body was made of Magic Barrier Particles. The moment he could hit Bradman, he was able to turn the tables around. Dragon Force may have increased his power but that just compensates for Gajeel's disadvantage in the beginning of the fight.

She had enough time of rest inbetween. Kyouka was also tortured by Mard Geer, at the end of the day these things didn't really impact the battle (unless you care to prove otherwise). Absolutely not, I have no idea where you got the x2 from. Torafusa is nearly just as impressive as Kyouka was with a far superior defence and an arguably equally impressive curse in Tenchi Kaimei. Mard is far more then just x2 Kyoukas level. Even base Mard is superior to Kyouka, let alone a fully powered one.

And I want to stress that fighting two consecutive battles is not the same as fighting those two characters at the same time. Not even close. If two characters are capable of giving a single character a High-Diff battle each, then together they would stomp/easy-diff.

I got the 2x from the Tartaros Character Cards created by Hiro Mashima. I'm pretty sure you disagree with it, but I don't see why Hiro Mashima would create false stats for a game. Otherwise, it would be meaningless to begin with. It's probably how he sees them anyways, so you can deny it all you want.

But my point is that Erza was not at full energy when she fought Kyōka. You can argue and say that they're not the same but you would still have to take into account that Erza is not fully recovered. If you choose to ignore this simple feat, then explain why Erza had trouble against Neinhart. So her battle with Ajeel didn't take a toll on her?

Why would we include DF?

Because that is Natsu at full power. Why would we take them when they're not at full power?

Because sand doesn't evaporate mate, it gets hotter. She's probably just going to be making things worse for herself. The fact that nothing happened to the sand around her is proof that nothing is going to be happening to Sand World.

What does heat have to do with this? Did it say that Mirajane's MP gives off heat? The sand around her proves nothing as I already explained in my other post.

---

I honestly think there are several characters with better aoe feats than Mira. Laxus,Jellal,Natsu,and basically every dragon to name a few. Whether some of their aoe's would be enough to dissipate Sand World is hard to say. My point is Mira is strong and her aoe attacks do seem to be larger than Erza, that and her ability to fly i suppose make her a little better matchup against Ajeel. Still all we have seen of Alegria is that it gives her a magic power boost and a strength boost. Neither of which helps her that much against Sand World imo. I think people underrate Ajeel at times, this guy has combat skill,a hard to even damage Sand Body,and an insane aoe spell Sand World that blocks out all vision for opponents, while allowing him to merge with the storm and see them just fine. On top of that it's the size of Magnolia and reaches into the sky. Perhaps there are people who do underrate Mira, but i am not one of them, i rate her as close to or on par with Erza, a fair ranking for her considering her inferior feats to Erza. I give her a little bit of slack due to her not being one of the main characters like Erza here, plus her portrayal puts her right about on Erza's level as well imo. I agree it's fine to disagree here though.

I know there are others with more AoE than Mirajane. I even listed their names.

Mirajane's Alegria Soul will be useful when she has a clear target on Ajeel. His defense is so low that he has to rely on Sand Body which Mirajane can counter.

As for Ajeel, he is not underrated at all. I put him on par with almost every Spriggan like Dimaria and Wahl. But because I believe Erza can beat any of those names I just listed, Mirajane can too (especially since the conditions give her an advantage here).

Ajeel doesn't have good combat skill. He solely relies on his magic. Additionally, his Sand Body and Sand World can easily be countered by Mirajane, so he is not going to have any sort of advantages here like he did with Erza.

But if Mirajane is somewhat on Erza's level, why would she lose here. Unless you claim Ajeel won with Medium Difficulty?

---

Natsu uses Fire Dragon Slaying Magic. When he projects fire it generally imitates the action of a dragon, which is essentially the mechanics of DS magic. You don't need Hiro to hand feed you spell names when you've seen this magic for 400+ chapters. And that is not even the first time Hiro hasn't had Natsu yell out FD Roar when he's done a roar. His most used spell is probably FD Iron Fist, and he's used a few of those since the time skip but I only recall his saying the name once (against Arlock).

In the silent chapter I would say Natsu is either using FD Claw, or FD Crimson Lotus exploding flame.

Natsu has 2 roars right now. FDK and FD. I claim it's FD roar. You call it an unnamed roar, which is incorrect. It is a named attack/spell.

I don't really care what the name is. The point is that it wasn't named. Calling it an unnamed roar is by no means incorrect. The roar was literally not named. What you call it is only speculation. That is proven by the fact that you can't even tell what Natsu used against Gildarts. Going by what was shown, I'd say that Natsu was just using a regular punch with flames imbued. That is as accurate as it gets.

The common sense I used falls in line with what we know about magic. I'm not saying I'm correct for sure, but to make an assumption using that logic it is fine, and certainly not baseless - it's based on what we've seen of their 2 forms, and what I believe about Mira and Erza in terms of MP.

Miralegria isn't casual at all. I don't think I've ever seen a casual trump card.

Hiro never gave Laxus an MP feat either. But on feats he'd easily account for Mirajane. Erza has better combat feats than Mirajane, so there's that, if you think that matters.

Yes that's correct, they are the only 2 feats that matter. Erza's are better currently. Mira's can get better by performing against a Spriggan, right now they're capped by Juliet's level.

But what someone believes can be baseless. Rather, we should be giving specific examples as to why Mirajane is inferior.

I put the word casual in quotations for a reason. I definitely wouldn't call it casual.

Laxus has had many MP feats... I don't see your point there.

But it's not like Erza one-shotted Ajeel which is the subject of discussion. If Erza did, she would clearly be above Mirajane. I really can't say much more.

Yes.

Spoiler

Seeing their figures through the attacks does not automatically mean they were directly hit by it...

But how strong are these nukes? This is Ajeel here. If Mira could spam Jupiter then that would be different. But she's spamming attacks that Juliet and Hynhe can tank rather well.

Mirajane shot the nuke with a second or two. If she charged it, the outcome would have been different. For your information, Ajeel's durability is among the lowest of the Spriggan 12. I don't need to repeat that he relies on his Sand Body. A basic punch from Natsu put visible injuries on him.

Erza's ahead based on feats, in all attack, durability and endurance. Durability isn't so much of an issue, Erza's isn't much above Mira's. But in the other 2 she's definitely ahead. As for Mira's feats, I'm not going to hype 2 subordinates to the point that it's arguably better to defeat them then beat Ajeel with help.

Of course Juliet + Hynhe wouldn't beat Ajeel. But he wouldn't win with ease either. Again, Mirajane defeated her opponents very easily compared to Erza. I don't see much of a point to argue about their stats when we obviously don't agree.

If Mira puts more MP in both the AoE and power would increase. But can she, or has she shown the ability to generate more power with the nukes? If she can, why didn't she drop a bigger one on Juliet/Hynhe? Maybe she just doesn't have strong nukes, I'd actually bet on that to be the case.

Miralegria doesn't have a nuke, yet.

Even if Ajeel doesn't use Sandworld the nukes still need to be strong enough to do damage. Wind is stated as a weakness to sand. There might be more weaknesses to sand, but to disperse sand I can't imagine anything being better than wind. Water was used against Wahl's weakbots, when Gray's ice was struggling. When AF was present at the GMG, Evergreen (IIRC) stated there was no water DS, implying the elemental advantage water has. These type of advantages aren't a big theme in the manga, but it's still stated that Water/Wind are effective against sand.

No, AoE wouldn't have to increase. That is why someone can have high attack potency but low AoE like Erza. As for the question about whether Mirajane can charge her nukes, I've seen many opinions about Laxus' nuke against Ajeel being charged, yet I don't see anyone questioning whether he could charge it or not. If you look at the pages again, you'll see Mirajane released her nuke fairly fast.

Mirajane's nukes doesn't need to do major damage to him. It should be enough to force him out of hiding which it certainly can do. Her Alegria form is the finishing move. There are plenty of other counters to sand though. I'm not denying that water/wind are effective against sand. All I'm saying is that one's counter may be different from another (while being just as effective).

Even if Erza's relative improvement is less than Natsu's it's still vast improvement. What defines improvement for Erza? How stronger she's got compared to X791 Erza, or how much gains she's made compared to other FT characters. I roll with the former, you're thinking more the latter I assume.

Yes, and the latter is what matters. We know the majority of FT characters cannot match a Spriggan one-on-one. And since Alvarez is so strong, Ishgar needs to be stronger to match them. From the events shown so far, many characters are now able to compete against a Spriggan. Erza too but she struggles a bit more which is what I'm trying to get at.

Natsu has greater endurance than Gray, always has and will. I never understand why plot armour is the go-to reason for someone enduring things. It just means Natsu (or whoever you want to assign the plot armour to) just has endurance at the level seen on panel.

If we allow Mira's durability to be equal to Erza's (and this is generous) then Ajeel can certainly damage Mirajane. I look at it differently, there's nothing so far to suggest Mira has great durability.

I don't see how Natsu has more endurance than Gray, but I'll just leave it as that. As for plot armor, it protects the person from losing. In other words, they will never get to the point of faltering from damage or feeling tired.

Well I don't think having high AoE is all that matters to beating Ajeel and I've never said that. That's the angle you're using, to try and say Mira is better than Erza for this fight. Erza lacks AoE, but she still hurt Ajeel. Mira's got large AoE, but it's leaving scratches on Juliet tiers.

The only potent nukes so far are Natsu's. Laxus' and August' are probably potent if we accept hype.

I know you never said that and that is mainly because you're refusing to accept Mirajane winning in this match. Erza lacks AoE, which is why she techinically lost to Ajeel.

 

[Aizen]

So is he invulnerable when he assimilates with the sand? You act like he cannot be damaged when he is in his sandstorm. Physical objects like Erza would fail but not Mirajane's magic attacks.



I never said she could. But she doesn't need to. Erza's requip is not instantaneous either.



In that case tell me what it takes to defeat Ajeel. Name a character or explain why Mirajane couldn't defeat him.



I already read the chapter. So when you have time, please post the scans and tell me which part you're referencing. We're debating this because I claim that Ajeel was in critical condition when Erza finished him off. You denied that and said Ajeel didn't have any severe injuries. The stain of blood isn't the focus of this debate. Ajeel's condition is. You say that the Jupiter Cannon took out a quarter of Ajeel's HP at best which is perfectly fine with me. Combine that with other injuries he received throughout the fight as well as fatigue. He is surely not in good shape.



Critical condition does not mean one is immobilized or on the verge of death... Laxus was in critical condition after fighting Wahl, yet he was still able to move.



To be fair though, Gajeel couldn't do anything to Bradman because his body was made of Magic Barrier Particles. The moment he could hit Bradman, he was able to turn the tables around. Dragon Force may have increased his power but that just compensates for Gajeel's disadvantage in the beginning of the fight.



I got the 2x from the Tartaros Character Carss created by Hiro Mashima. I'm pretty sure you disagree with it, but I don't see why Hiro Mashima would create false stats for a game. Otherwise, it would be meaningless to begin with. It's probably how he sees them anyways, so you can deny it all you want.

But my point is that Erza was not at full energy when she fought Kyōka. You can argue and say that they're not the same but you would still have to take into account that Erza is not fully recovered. If you choose to ignore this simple feat, then explain why Erza had trouble against Neinhart. So her battle with Ajeel didn't take a toll on her?



Because that is Natsu at full power. Why would we take them when they're not at full power?



What does heat have to do with this? Did it say that Mirajane's MP gives off heat? The sand around her proves nothing as I already explained in my other post.

---

I know there are others with more AoE than Mirajane. I even listed their names.

Mirajane's Alegria Soul will be useful when she has a clear target on Ajeel. His defense is so low that he has to rely on Sand Body which Mirajane can counter.

As for Ajeel, he is not underrated at all. I put him on par with almost every Spriggan like Dimaria and Wahl. But because I believe Erza can beat any of those names I just listed, Mirajane can too (especially since the conditions give her an advantage here).

Ajeel doesn't have good combat skill. He solely relies on his magic. Additionally, his Sand Body and Sand World can easily be countered by Mirajane, so he is not going to have any sort of advantages here like he did with Erza.

But if Mirajane is somewhat on Erza's level, why would she lose here. Unless you claim Ajeel won with Medium Difficulty?

---

I don't really care what the name is. The point is that it wasn't named. Calling it an unnamed roar is by no means incorrect. The roar was literally not named. What you call it is only speculation. That is proven by the fact that you can't even tell what Natsu used against Gildarts. Going by what was shown, I'd say that Natsu was just using a regular punch with flames imbued. That is as accurate as it gets.



But what someone believes can be baseless. Rather, we should be giving specific examples as to why Mirajane is inferior.

I put the word casual in quotations for a reason. I definitely wouldn't call it casual.

Laxus has had many MP feats... I don't see your point there.

But it's not like Erza one-shotted Ajeel which is the subject of discussion. If Erza did, she would clearly be above Mirajane. I really can't say much more.



Seeing their figures through the attacks does not automatically mean they were directly hit by it...




Mirajane shot the nuke with a second or two. If she charged it, the outcome would have been different. For your information, Ajeel's durability is among the lowest of the Spriggan 12. I don't need to repeat that he relies on his Sand Body. A basic punch from Natsu put visible injuries on him.



Of course Juliet + Hynhe wouldn't beat Ajeel. But he wouldn't win with ease either. Again, Mirajane defeated her opponents very easily compared to Erza. I don't see much of a point to argue about their stats when we obviously don't agree.



No, AoE wouldn't have to increase. That is why someone can have high attack potency but low AoE like Erza. As for the question about whether Mirajane can charge her nukes, I've seen many opinions about Laxus' nuke against Ajeel being charged, yet I don't see anyone questioning whether he could charge it or not. If you look at the pages again, you'll see Mirajane released her nuke fairly fast.

Mirajane's nukes doesn't need to do major damage to him. It should be enough to force him out of hiding which it certainly can do. Her Alegria form is the finishing move. There are plenty of other counters to sand though. I'm not denying that water/wind are effective against sand. All I'm saying is that one's counter may be different from another (while being just as effective).



Yes, and the latter is what matters. We know the majority of FT characters cannot match a Spriggan one-on-one. And since Alvarez is so strong, Ishgar needs to be stronger to match them. From the events shown so far, many characters are now able to compete against a Spriggan. Erza too but she struggles a bit more which is what I'm trying to get at.



I don't see how Natsu has more endurance than Gray, but I'll just leave it as that. As for plot armor, it protects the person from losing. In other words, they will never get to the point of faltering from damage or feeling tired.



I know you never said that and that is mainly because you're refusing to accept Mirajane winning in this match. Erza lacks AoE, which is why she techinically lost to Ajeel.

Well Ajeel was literally blocking every one of Erza's swords with his hands that were covered in sand, that shows some reflexes no doubt. He was pulling off acrobatic jumps when dodging as well, so like i said i would say he does have good combat skills.

 

[SirSamuel016]

I'd give this one to Ajeel maybe mid-diff. At the end of the day, to me this comes down to what Mira has shown thus far and what she has shown simply isn't enough to suggest she could take on a Spriggan and win. It'd be as good as over when Ajeel casts Sand World imo.

 

[Brandish μ]

I don't really care what the name is. The point is that it wasn't named. Calling it an unnamed roar is by no means incorrect. The roar was literally not named. What you call it is only speculation. That is proven by the fact that you can't even tell what Natsu used against Gildarts. Going by what was shown, I'd say that Natsu was just using a regular punch with flames imbued. That is as accurate as it gets.

The roar is named, it's named Fire Dragons Roar. That is the name of the spell. Calling it unnamed is incorrect. What do you think the spell is called that Natsu used there?

It was a silent chapter, so perhaps Natsu actually said the words... or maybe Gildarts and Natsu didn't even utter a word the whole time? But if you want to ignore the mechanics of DS magic and Hiro's selectivity when it comes to having the characters say the words of the spell at times, then I will concede Mirajane has no named tech in Alegria soul, just a physical blow.

But what someone believes can be baseless. Rather, we should be giving specific examples as to why Mirajane is inferior.

I put the word casual in quotations for a reason. I definitely wouldn't call it casual.

Laxus has had many MP feats... I don't see your point there.

But it's not like Erza one-shotted Ajeel which is the subject of discussion. If Erza did, she would clearly be above Mirajane. I really can't say much more.

Nakagami/Miralegria being exhaustive+short-term magic is not baseless. It's stated and shown.

Then why even say casual? It's not related to casual in any way.

Laxus doesn't have an MP feat to show his improvement where he's altered the environment in any way. His feats come directly from combat. These are both physical and magical feats. Erza is the same in this regard.

Miralegria didn't oneshot Juliet or Hynhe either, they were injured. Erza doing damage on Ajeel is simply a better feat.

Seeing their figures through the attacks does not automatically mean they were directly hit by it...

So you think that they weren't hit with that nuke, despite being only 5-10m away...

Mirajane shot the nuke with a second or two. If she charged it, the outcome would have been different. For your information, Ajeel's durability is among the lowest of the Spriggan 12. I don't need to repeat that he relies on his Sand Body. A basic punch from Natsu put visible injuries on him.

Has she charged it before though? If she's powerful, it won't need much of a charge, she should be able to dump the power quite quickly. Laxus and Natsu can. You're being quite liberal with how Mira's nukes work.

Ajeel's durability is not a top tier within the 12, but having Spriggan level durability is top tier among humans. Only Wahl, DiMaria(Chronos only), and God Serena are the ones I consider with better feats. Ajeel had a few scatches on his face from the punch, and I think that only lasted 1 panel? That wouldn't even qualify as minor injuries in my book.

Of course Juliet + Hynhe wouldn't beat Ajeel. But he wouldn't win with ease either. Again, Mirajane defeated her opponents very easily compared to Erza. I don't see much of a point to argue about their stats when we obviously don't agree.

Ajeel would no-low diff Juliet and Hynhe. Mira didn't look all that good at the end of her fight, on her knees and hoping that they didn't get up.

No, AoE wouldn't have to increase. That is why someone can have high attack potency but low AoE like Erza. As for the question about whether Mirajane can charge her nukes, I've seen many opinions about Laxus' nuke against Ajeel being charged, yet I don't see anyone questioning whether he could charge it or not. If you look at the pages again, you'll see Mirajane released her nuke fairly fast.

Mirajane's nukes doesn't need to do major damage to him. It should be enough to force him out of hiding which it certainly can do. Her Alegria form is the finishing move. There are plenty of other counters to sand though. I'm not denying that water/wind are effective against sand. All I'm saying is that one's counter may be different from another (while being just as effective).

Wouldn't have to is not what matters. What matters is if it will. You can't augment the nuke to suit your preferences. If more MP is put into a nuke, it does more damage (ie more power is in it) and it gets bigger (more AoE). Natsu's roars demonstrate this. Could Mira's nukes be different? Yes they could. But that's why I asked whether or not Mira's nukes have shown to become more potent without a change to AoE. But even so, the nuke she used against Juliet/Hynhe was unremarkable. The amount of power she's have to add to do more than tickle Ajeel is many times more.

Laxus raised his hand and a nuke dropped. That's what it looked like.

Mira's nukes don't need to do major damage. Let's call it moderate. Can she even achieve that? Miralegria is far more potent than the nukes, and even in this form it is questionable that she can achieve moderate damage. I really don't see how you can call Mira's nukes effective here, other than probably dispersing some sand.

Yes, and the latter is what matters. We know the majority of FT characters cannot match a Spriggan one-on-one. And since Alvarez is so strong, Ishgar needs to be stronger to match them. From the events shown so far, many characters are now able to compete against a Spriggan. Erza too but she struggles a bit more which is what I'm trying to get at.

So Erza struggles more than Laxus, Natsu and Jellal; and that makes her improvement classed as barely? The rest of FT characters haven't shown that they could fight a Spriggan evenly, nor do better than Erza. Gajeel was getting beaten badly with help, before he activated DF.

I don't see how Natsu has more endurance than Gray, but I'll just leave it as that. As for plot armor, it protects the person from losing. In other words, they will never get to the point of faltering from damage or feeling tired.

So how do you determine if it's plot armour or endurance? Only plot armour for Natsu right? And Gray's just toughing it out with no help from Hiro.

I know you never said that and that is mainly because you're refusing to accept Mirajane winning in this match. Erza lacks AoE, which is why she techinically lost to Ajeel.

Lol I'm not refusing it, like by choice. It's just that I don't view Mira's feats impressive enough that she can take down Ajeel.