Shoujo Nana by Ai Yazawa

baboysai

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

well sleepycat, here's what i think.

all this time I really thought that Takumi's feelings for Reira are more of a brotherly, possessive type. like he has to be responsible for her, if something goes wrong it's gonna be his fault, etc. etc. because he took her, showed her the possibilities, showed her the dream that she's living now, and he can't leave her because of that. However, Takumi doesn't see Reira as a woman, but as a child that he has reared, or a sister, or a doll that he has created to perfection. That was why, when he decided to "take her sadness away" and volunteered himself to ease her loneliness, he seemed like he was committing something incestuous.

From there it's really clear how different he looks at Reira vs Hachi. On the other hand, he views Hachi as a woman with a strong sense of beliefs, and believes in herself (as opposed to Reira who is constantly insecure). There are qualities of Hachi that Takumi has gone to admire over time, like Hachi taking responsibility of her baby and not blaming him about it, again, as opposed to the time when he impregnated someone for the first time, and he was asked to take responsibility for everything. (see my post above)

I think that Takumi cannot leave Trapnest, or that business, that's why we see the future shots and he's still in London, and can't stop working. And this is because it's his life, all along, and it's his passion, that he cannot trade for the comforts of a stable family life, no matter how much he loves his children. He has put way too much burden on his shoulders that to put it down would no longer be comfortable for him. Or so he thinks. We'll see if he's able to do that in the epilogue.

RE: 2nd child,

good point, lil Ren hasn't been shown to communicate with Hachi yet, and it does leave the suspense. I open my mind on that, but it will most probably be Hachi's son that she was carrying during the time of Ren's death. It is also the reason why Reira wants to hate the kid and "destroy him" for being Hachi and Takumi's child. Remember when she said she wanted to destroy everything dear to Takumi? Most likely she said that out of bitterness, because she could never be loved by Takumi the way he loves Hachi or his kids. Sure, Reira may be no. 1, most important figure in his heart, but he doesn't see her as a woman the way he loves Hachi.
 

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

Hi everyone:D Really enjoyed hearing all the different views!!

Hi Duchess :) You made some great points. When you talk about when there is lust, can love be between them. I am sure that is a very important theme. In defense of Takumi & Hachi, I think love did develop. . When he said to Hachi, you are the one I truly love, do you think that was a lie?

Takumi is definately a self-centered man. Above everyone else his music is his escape, his passion, his life, his escape. He wants to protect Reira and she is very important to him BUT he does not love her as a woman. Don’t you agree? Did you ever feel the author was showing he was attracted to her when she was practically throwing herself at him throughout (in clear signals). Chemistry/lust/attraction is seen from early on and Takumi was never attracted to Reira in that way. Ai Yazawa could have hinted on Takumi being double-minded but not once, in my opinion, did he show that Takumi was tempted.

When you quoted Takumi saying "Reira was more important than anyone", at that page and the one before Ai Yawaza does write Takumi’s feelings which do suggest he made a on the spur of the moment lie. When you mentioned him being depressed because Reira said that she will not sing just for him. I agree it had an impact on him. But that very night, before that Ren had also told him he wants to quit.

My dilemma is this “angel” that Takumi wanted to protect is a brotherly love (in my eyes). A brother who treasures his sister, whose voice gave him solitude and peace. So he will never stop caring for her but he will not make her his woman because he cannot love her in that way. He cannot bring himself to do that. That is the clear proof that he does not have those feelings for her.

Hi Sleepycat. In response to your question, WHY does Nana and Takumi has a second child? That is a good question (I wonder it myself). But Ren is older than Satsuki. So he has not called Hachi “mom” but he is the first child to be born and only Hachi is pregnant right now. He also looks like a complete copy of Hachi! So I am very certain that Hachi and Takumi are both Ren & Satsuki’s biological parents.

And thanks to Crab Battle for giving the early heads up for chapter 82, Appreciate it. Please continue to let us know, if you find out before us, coz I just can’t wait to know what is happening next.

Hi baboysai:) Thanks for your regular responses. I just wanted to say that I dont think that trapnest still exists in the future when he is in London. Reasons (i) His clothes suggest a different kind of work (ii) he suggested once when meetign with Hachi's parents he wanted to shift his role/work to a different area(though he still seems to be prioritising work up til that point) (iii) judging fromt he conversation Naoki has with Takumi it seemed as if trapnest had disbanded (iv) Reira didnt sing unless Ren played the guitar
Thanks everyone.
 
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baboysai

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

goal, i agree Trapnest doesn't exist in the future. what I meant was, his work in the music industry.


@crab, there's already chapter 82? where? :wtf
 
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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

Hey baboysai ;)

I want to rewind a bit to an exchange of views we had earlier. You say that Takumi liked the fact that Hachi did not blame him(when she got pregnant). I agree with you(good point!). But I wanted to point out, before Hachi decided she was going to keep the baby and raise him, Takumi volunteered (while he was on the phone with Nobu and Hachi overheard) to support the kid, pay for it, and ALSO raise him as his own if hachi decided to keep the baby. Now that also allowed Hachi to become strong. He had not shown this sort of support earlier.

Also I would like your opinion on the following:
In chapter 57 pg 46, when Takumi looks at Hachi and Hachi looks back, what feelings between them was the author trying to show through their expression?
 

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

I would interpret it as a sign of relief, for the both of them, that finally they're there, whatever that point in life is. Hachi perfectly understands Takumi and because of that she doesn't nag or complain much, but she becomes the wife and mother that is not totally submissive to her husband but accepts him wholeheartedly, despite his shortcomings. Here i see Takumi as slightly ashamed perhaps? for being absent too long? it's an awkward situation for him of sorts, coming home after a very long time. And Hachi knows this that's why she only smiles so he wouldn't feel bad about it. Knowing Takumi, it might have really cost him a lot of courage to do that.
 

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

I have come across this wonderful site which a lot of raws and many shoujo manga. You can go to this site for a quick summary of chapter 82 of Nana (scroll 1/4th of the page and you should see it):D

http://tatsukida.pitas.com/
 

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

My thoughts on 82....I'm not really sure on the rules on cursing in this forum, so be warned there's a tiny bit of language, but nothing that wouldn't be heard on network tv.

The biggest surprise for me in this chapter is that I have a new least favorite character. Congratulations Reira! You're off my hate list. I actually had sympathy for you. I almost actually kind of like you, now that I know your extreme self-centredness is due to mental illness and not just...bitchery. This makes you a real character! Yay Reira!

So, Yuri, welcome to the top of my hate list. I hate you more than I ever hated Reira, who at least can be cute sometimes, and is adorable with Shin. You, Yuri, take selfish and bitchy to new levels. You even make me kind of hate Nobu for being involved with you. And I love Nobu.

Takumi, oh Takumi. I really hate you, but you're such a well-developed bastard that I kind of love you. The little "I'll be there" moment with Reira...aw. The only time he's ever human is around her. Occasionally. Rarely. It's a shame his childhood psychological damage has made him such a bastard that he can't express affection or even, you know, call his pregnant wife whose best friend's fiance (right? did they ever file their paperwork? i can't even remember) has just died. Bastard. How do I combine Takumi and bastard...Tastard? Baskumi? Bastami? Takutard? Takustard? Bastumi? Ooh. Bastumi. I think that's it.

Shin! I missed you. And I still miss you, because I saw you for, like, two seconds.

Nana! Poor Nana! You know what, I do still hate Reira. Poor Nana is suffering and everyone is running off to see Reira and leaving Nana alone (*cough* Yasu! *cough* You're lucky I love you so much!). Even after Nana's fiance/husband? dies, you have to hog all the attention spotlight for yourself, don't you Reira? Even your mental breakdown has to be more dramatic than Nana's, doesn't it? Reira. Attention whore. Attenore. Reittenore. Shin is my new favorite character because he stayed with Nana and didn't go running after Reira. I love you, Shin.

Hachi/Nobu....waaaah. Yazawa-sensei, why do you tease me? We already kind of know Hachi will continue her Adventures in Self-Loathing with Bastumi....whyyyyyyyy. I can't even talk about it.

Ren. Ren. You've become my favorite of the boys, next to Shin, but only after you died. Sorry. Oh my god! The conversation about Satsuki! The adorableness...I was never that crazy about Ren when he was just the Sid to Nana's Nancy, but this whole adorable protective childlike-ly-paternal Ren...I love this Ren.

Great chapter. Loved the Hachi/Nobu Takumi/Reira paralleling. I wonder who was narrating at the end....I'm looking back over it, there was not a single pronoun used, so I can't narrow down from the ore/atashi or anything. So it literally could be anyone. I think it's Takumi or Ren. Usually when Hachi narrates, she uses her own voice. I can't see her being that vague.
 

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

Haha, that was fun to read xD

Reira's breakdown was kind of to be expected, I guess. The relationship between Takumi and Hachi is just ridiculous. It's more depressing than all, to see such a lovely person like Hachi being treated this badly, or married to HIM. Anyway.. in the future-forward-flashes (omg I don't know the word for this.. ) I really love Takumi. Being a family guy doesn't necessarily suit him but nevertheless I was pleased by him.

Ren's death is just even more depressing than all. But of course, I knew it would happen. The fact that Nana can't speak or just doesn't want to, is kind of bittersweet. I'm glad she's missing him. Is she? I don't know.
If they would have broken up, she'd have been okay. But death is so absolute, and they wanted to return to their hometown and die together.. depressing. The whole series is depressing. But, that as it was always, so no complains.

btw, I'm definitely for "Takustard" XD.
 

baboysai

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

well the first 10 pages are out over at CD's. the translation's available here thanks to Himemo. ^^

and I haven't read it yet :p
 

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

Hey everybody. In chapter 82, the final words of the chapter. Do you think those are Takumi's thoughts?
Hey Ren,
Judge my honesty and mistakes,
This pain is my own fault,
Forgive my crime,
Dont punish me this way,
It seems that these hands have let go of all things that were valuable,
All that remains is my beloved

Is beloved referring to Hachi?
 

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

My thoughts on 82....I'm not really sure on the rules on cursing in this forum, so be warned there's a tiny bit of language, but nothing that wouldn't be heard on network tv.

The biggest surprise for me in this chapter is that I have a new least favorite character. Congratulations Reira! You're off my hate list. I actually had sympathy for you. I almost actually kind of like you, now that I know your extreme self-centredness is due to mental illness and not just...bitchery. This makes you a real character! Yay Reira!

So, Yuri, welcome to the top of my hate list. I hate you more than I ever hated Reira, who at least can be cute sometimes, and is adorable with Shin. You, Yuri, take selfish and bitchy to new levels. You even make me kind of hate Nobu for being involved with you. And I love Nobu.

Takumi, oh Takumi. I really hate you, but you're such a well-developed bastard that I kind of love you. The little "I'll be there" moment with Reira...aw. The only time he's ever human is around her. Occasionally. Rarely. It's a shame his childhood psychological damage has made him such a bastard that he can't express affection or even, you know, call his pregnant wife whose best friend's fiance (right? did they ever file their paperwork? i can't even remember) has just died. Bastard. How do I combine Takumi and bastard...Tastard? Baskumi? Bastami? Takutard? Takustard? Bastumi? Ooh. Bastumi. I think that's it.

Shin! I missed you. And I still miss you, because I saw you for, like, two seconds.

Nana! Poor Nana! You know what, I do still hate Reira. Poor Nana is suffering and everyone is running off to see Reira and leaving Nana alone (*cough* Yasu! *cough* You're lucky I love you so much!). Even after Nana's fiance/husband? dies, you have to hog all the attention spotlight for yourself, don't you Reira? Even your mental breakdown has to be more dramatic than Nana's, doesn't it? Reira. Attention whore. Attenore. Reittenore. Shin is my new favorite character because he stayed with Nana and didn't go running after Reira. I love you, Shin.

Hachi/Nobu....waaaah. Yazawa-sensei, why do you tease me? We already kind of know Hachi will continue her Adventures in Self-Loathing with Bastumi....whyyyyyyyy. I can't even talk about it.

Ren. Ren. You've become my favorite of the boys, next to Shin, but only after you died. Sorry. Oh my god! The conversation about Satsuki! The adorableness...I was never that crazy about Ren when he was just the Sid to Nana's Nancy, but this whole adorable protective childlike-ly-paternal Ren...I love this Ren.

Great chapter. Loved the Hachi/Nobu Takumi/Reira paralleling. I wonder who was narrating at the end....I'm looking back over it, there was not a single pronoun used, so I can't narrow down from the ore/atashi or anything. So it literally could be anyone. I think it's Takumi or Ren. Usually when Hachi narrates, she uses her own voice. I can't see her being that vague.
:S

I left some thoughts about your translation there. There's some definite rough spots.

Frankly I can actually understand what Yuri's going through. I mean, I myself would not be reacting like that (Trust until proven guilty is my motto-- also I am a guy), but I can imagine most normal girls being a lot more screwed up by having her boyfriend's-ex-who-he-may-still-love-and-who-may-be-pregnant-with-his-child living in the same small barracks. Actually, I think it would take super-human patience to tolerate that situation.

She may be flirty (slutty?) and attention seeking (like every other girl in this series?), but she actually has a very deep understanding and sensitivity for the workings between people. I thought she was quite cool at Reira's party when she said, "Why do all men snap back to reality when they put on a tie." She's also proven her empathy time and again with her insights about Miyu. Also the way she exploded in this episode (and the way she explodes in general) lets us know that she is aware she is being selfish, but she's saying things from her heart.

It's because of her empathy that she is so agitated, because she's attune to feelings Nobu has for Hachi that even he himself isn't fully aware of (or pretends not to be aware of). Not to mention that she knows that Nobu is the kind of guy who needs to be made to feel special, and does everything in her power to feed that need. Making her man feel special is something Hachi has never really excelled at (flat out failed at it with Shouji, though I still hate Shouji). If anything, that tells me that Yuri knows Nobu very well, which is very admirable-- even if she ought to trust him more knowing what a great guy he is. Though based on this chapter, maybe her level of suspicion is justified . . .

While her behavior is undoubtedly selfish and self-centered, I find it to be so within reason. Let's just say she treats Nobu a lot better than Hachi treated Shouji.
When Nobu and Hachi embraced each other in the last panel, didn't you think "Poor Yuri, her selfish-behavior due to suspicions turned out to be justified."

On that note, regarding the Hachi-Nobu pairing, I don't think this is a teaser. Frankly, I saw this coming a mile off.

In all the future scenes thus far, the interactions between future Nobu and future Hachi seem to be quite intimate, with her filling his bath or leaning her head on his shoulder-- and furthermore they act as if that's natural. My guess is that the Nobu/Hachi pairing is going to re-emerge, especially since Yuri does not appear in any of the Future scenes-- which makes me think that she will break off from the group in the future. I actually feel quite bad for her.

I also think that Hachi should be stronger in her resolve to make things work with Takumi. She made her decision long ago, and I think Marriage is a sacred thing that should be better respected by those in it. As she says herself, she chose Takumi knowing he was that kind of man. Though I can't feel sorry for Takumi in terms of loyalty considering all his . . . erhm . . . outings.

@Reira-- Reira/Shin is actually my favorite pairing (on another note, my last girlfriend was 12 years older than me-- Reira and Shin are just fine, just fine). I really like Reira's flirty yet childish attitude. Like when she first met Nobu-- "This one is cute too! How much??" Honestly, this girl usually cracks me up so hard.

I just don't like melo-dramatic Reira that goes nutz on us when things start going even a little bad. While she was with Shin she was arguably my favorite of the female characters (Nana would be first if she wasn't such a kattena onna). I don't really like her though when she just turns into a sobbing pile of mush relying on Takumi. If she could find the resolve to wait for Shin to come back for her, she would redeem her position in my fandom.

I too am disgusted by her behavior since the point the two of them split up. Actually, I was disgusted when she cut it off between them. When a girl dumps a guy telling him "it's for his sake," things never go well, that's real life or manga. Never.

Also yes, Shin is the best male character. And then Ren, though I've always loved Ren. Also Ren + Shin is awesome. If I weren't a straight guy, I would totally dig the Ren + Shin. Yasu is cool too though.
What the fuck is he doing visiting Reira? Totally with you there.
I can hardly stand to see Shin helping out Nana though considering that not too long ago she called him a "stranger" who "is in no way a bandmember." :/

Speaking of Nana, while I really loved the self-confident, self-reliant, cool and mature Nana of the early series, and Drunk-Nana/Funny-Nana is undoubtedly the funniest shit ever (rivaled only by Yu-gi-oh abridged and hamster racing), it's just hard to feel any sympathy for her honestly.

Even though Ren was the one who left, he has tried so hard to be good to her since he came back, even offering to leave his precious Trapnest. Ren has always held their happiness together as the most dearest thing to his heart, but that kattena onna, even being fully aware of Ren's feelings, never once could just put her stupid pride aside.

It was killing him, it was killing him inside. No one would say, "It's Nana's fault Ren got in an accident," as that would be ridiculous-- but the fact is that Ren was already dying in his heart, up to the end. He was just so sad. The Ren that cared so much about family, about simple happiness, that Ren was beautiful. I admire that kind of person who appreciates the value of true shiawase. While some may say that Ren was the one to leave Nana for Tokyo, let me remind that even at the end, when Ren made love to Nana that final night, he was asking her from his heart to give up her pride so that the two of them could make a family.

"We have some money, a kid or two would be no prob."

"Even if it's no problem for you, it's a problem for me-- I want to sing."

Only did Ren, mournfully, give up on his small dream of happiness.

". . . Nana, I'm going to Tokyo, so you can live your life as you wish."

Ren is such a beautiful soul, and I think Yazawa has truly captured this, even in his death. Nana left that flower alone to die, caring only for her pride. I just can't feel sorry for her. She always, always had the choice to achieve happiness as a woman.

NANA has always had the underlying question: "Should a woman care more for dreams of success, or achieving happiness as a woman." While this decision certainly presents itself to men as well (and Ren's choice would be to work at a gas station for the rest of his life if it meant that he and Nana could be together), woman seem to obsess over this question much more strongly (reasonable seeing as they're the ones who have to go through pregnancy).

Nana was always denying that happiness, even as Ren suffered because of it. I can't feel sorry for her when that chance that she took for granted disappeared.

edit: Scrolling up, am I the only guy to post in this thread?????
 
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baboysai

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

chapter 82 Edited Manga is out at Mangatraders.

@fujihara, no, there was a guy I remember who posted here as well. :p and rest assured, I know guy members in this forum who read Nana. ^^;


well, quite a long post to read through, fuji, but I agree with most of the stuff you said.

geez, i don't even know if Reira's insanity was real or an act of cutesy escapism.

re: NobuxHachi, can't say anything regarding predictions on that yet. damn, it's too hard.

I had always supported the HachixTakumi pairing, and I always loved Hachi's subtly portrayed strong character... however, with Hachi seemingly too chummy and guilt-tripping with Nobu at this point, I'm kinda losing my respect for her so-called resolve. :notrust

as for the last few lines, I can't really say for sure if it's from Hachi or Takumi. Though I doubt if it's from Takumi because it'd be the first time for him to do so. It had always been Hachi/Nana who get those "final words" in the chapters, and I think it should stay that way for the sake of consistency.

and here we are again with the topic that apparently Takumi regards Reira higher than Hachi? He's there nursing her, not even calling his pregnant wife for any updates. -_-; if we don't see him as the doting father that he is in the future chapters, this simply means that he doesn't love hachi at all, but when his kid gets born he changes perspective.
 
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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

I like what Fujihara's perspective on Yuri & Ren. I only thought of her as a shrewd, canniving and selfish woman. But you have a point, she is fighting for her man and that man really does still love Hachi deep down, and she knows it. So we cannot expect her to be generous when Hachi (her threat) is lurking around. But you do however get a sense that Nobu x Yuri are doomed, sooner or later they will break it off. And the future scenes reflect that. I still cant seem to like Yuri much though.

What you have to say about Ren x Nana is right on the money. Definately, Ren has been portrayed as a beautiful soul, from start to end. Loving one woman, loyal, struggling, and the tragic end.

When it comes to Nana, I can related to why she holds on to her pride. Being a woman, I too believe pride is the one of the most important assets a woman has. And the compromise between career and happiness is a very real question/dilmena a lot of women do face. Its very challenging. But Nana definately neglected Ren and that is why I am not inspired by the Nana x Ren relationship. I dont feel they were that compatible.


As to the future flashes regarding Hachi x Nobu. I get quite the opposite impression. I sense that there is no (romantic) relationship between Hachi and Nobu. When they meet, it seems they are catching up. It is clear Nobu harbours feelings for Hachi and they dont change but it seems that they have decided to live by the choice Hachi made, which was to be Takumi's wife.
Personally, I do think that Hachi's relationship with Nobu is undeveloped. Its almost like what could have been...if it weren't for Takumi. Takumi interrupted their "love" so I always sense like something is incomplete between Nobu x Hachi.

Yes Hachi gets to me when she goes back and forth between her decisions. Now that she is so close to having her baby she thinks "I could have had an abortion for you Nobu". Haha very silly. Her strong resolve disappears just when I was admiring her for it. But I feel that strong resolve to commit to being Takumi's wife will stay with her.

I still believe Takumi loves her. And she loves him back. I also feel when Takumi was stepping out of the hospital is was to call Hachi. Takumi is definately neglecting his role as a husband, which he has always done. But he wont regret it till he loses Hachi, who he has taken for granted.
 

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

I do think that Takumi cares deeply for Hachi-- he just really sucks at showing it. Ok, not even that, because when they are together Takumi shows astounding empathy and caring for Hachi. He also is very good at making gestures that truly please Hachi, so it's not like he is incapable of knowing her needs. In fact both Hachi and Takumi have seemed to get progressively better and better at coping/dealing with each other.

I guess what I am saying is that for Takumi it's not that he doesn't know what Hachi needs or how to be a good husband-- he just can't live it. Sort of like what he said before, that he just can't take anything as seriously as work. This is not necessarily his desire, but almost like habit.

Aizawa has done a lot to make a theme of drawing parallels between Takumi and Nana, and indeed the two characters have a lot in common-- the most notable being an inability to do anything but look only ahead, walking the path before them. Both do this so stubbornly it causes pain to Hachi/Ren.

Despite the parallels though, the roots are different. For Nana it's about pride. For Takumi, it's not emotional so much as it is psychological, it's almost impulsive. That's just his nature, and he's aware of it as much as Nana is aware of her pride. Takumi has great control of his emotions, but has given up on trying to control his impulses. Nana pretty much sucks at controlling either. haha

I actually like Takumi, he's really cool-- just not as cool as Yasu. xD "Takumi is cool, but not as cool as Yasu," that's one of the greatest ongoing gags of Nana. :P
 

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

Ah, so much conversation, I don't even know where to begin! :)

Let's start with Yuri and Nobu - I do see your point. I think she knows that Nobu never really had a chance to get over Hachi. That's certainly not a great situation to be in. But one of her boyfriend's best friends just died, and everyone else around her is suffering. It's not about you. Be quiet, be supportive, and wait until some time has passed. It seems to be like she cares less about Nobu and his well-being than about her own insecurities and ego. Like being Nobu's girlfriend is way more important to her than Nobu. IMHO.

And while I'm sure I forgot some things, I've only read the series twice - did Hachi treat Shouji that badly? He's the one who cheated on her. I know she spent a lot of time with Nana and Blast, but Shouji's a big boy. She didn't have to be with him all the time. He was plenty busy with school, and work, and cheating on her.

I also, personally, don't see Hachi not trying hard enough with Takumi. The opposite, really. She continually chooses him over everything else in her life, like when she decided to stay with him instead of going to see Nana for her birthday. And he continually leaves her, doesn't even call her, and cheats on her. I think he does care about Hachi in his own twisted way, but that way is way too twisted to count as actual caring.

I really like Reira/Shin too. I know there's a lot of moral and possibly legal ambiguity there, but I don't care. That's a good point about Nana's reaction to Shin's legal trouble - I'd forgotten that. It just makes me like Shin more. And I'll say more about Nana later. I also like Reira when she is being cute and childish - she's just such a friggin' self-centered drama queen. Then again, everyone in this manga is kind of self-centered to a point. They all have their faults. It is what makes this manga so great.

And I totally agree about Shin, Ren, and Yasu. Although I love Nobu too. I just love all the Blast boys, even the former ones.

I think might be the only person who likes Nana better in the latter part of the series. Don't get me wrong, I loved her in the beginning. But somehow I love that her cool, confident demeanor is the result of gaping self-esteem issues and extreme neediness, yet at the same time a very real part of her. I don't think I'm explaining that well at all. I'll have to think it over and re-word it.

On whole career vs. happiness with Nana - Nana is happiest when she's singing. I don't think a woman should have to choose between career and love, and if a guy can't accept that, then that's not the guy for her. Not everyone is meant to, or wants to, have children. And if Ren really wanted children, he should have volunteered to quit Trapnest and raise them while Nana had her career. Or did he do that? I can't remember. It's the 21st century. Having a uterus does not mean having to devote your entire existence to raising children.

I think a lot of the issues in the Nana/Ren relationship were from Nana's self-esteem and abandonment issues. Although I don't think Ren was exempt from the problems in their relationship. Nana continually pushes everyone away because, somewhere inside her, she's convinced they are going to leave her, and because she's already so hurt, she doesn't think she can handle that pain. I think Ren had the same issues, to a certain extent, and that's why their relationship was so volatile. I think Ren had some serious escapism issues, culminating in his drug addiction.

I don't think it's going to be NobuxHachi, at least not any time soon. The foreshadowing, to me, clearly indicates that Hachi chooses Takumi, even over Nana. I think Hachi choosing Takumi in some context will be what finally sends Nana over the edge. And Satsuki is the spitting image of Takumi, and I don't think she's the child Hachi is carrying now. And I say all this as someone who prefers NobuxHachi and despises TakumixHachi. Or Nochi and Takuchi.
 
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Fujihara

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

Ah, so much conversation, I don't even know where to begin! :)

Let's start with Yuri and Nobu - I do see your point. I think she knows that Nobu never really had a chance to get over Hachi. That's certainly not a great situation to be in. But one of her boyfriend's best friends just died, and everyone else around her is suffering. It's not about you. Be quiet, be supportive, and wait until some time has passed. It seems to be like she cares less about Nobu and his well-being than about her own insecurities and ego. Like being Nobu's girlfriend is way more important to her than Nobu. IMHO.
Ok, I can see your point there. :S

Himemo-- I'm going to respond to your other comments in reverse order (for ease of remembering it all). Bear with me xD

First off: Ichinose Satsuki is the 2nd Child, Ichinose Ren is the 1st Child (the one Hachi is now carrying). Remember that Satsuki refers to Ren as Onii-chan in the future scenes, like all younger siblings in Japan.

*Culture Note: For those who only read the Edited Mangas, remeber that Satsuki refers to Ren as brother. While the word "Brother" does not have a direction in English, in Japanese we always use "Onii-chan/san" or "otouto" to mean older brother/younger brother respectively. Also in Japanese families, older siblings call younger singlings by name where as younger siblings generally call elder siblings by onii-san/onee-san (elder brother/sister) as part of the honorific structure of our language/culture.

Example:

Ren: Satsuki is so cute!! ~<3 <--Older Sibling
Satsuki: I love my Onii-chan!! ~<3 <-- Younger sibling
:3 (btw I'm affectionate to my younger sister to the point of annoying her)

Therefore Ren is the child whose fatherhood is ambiguous, and Aizawa has drawn him in a way that leaves it ambiguous. :S

So yeah, Satsuki's existance definitely means that Takumi and Hachi continued long enough to have a second child. Something obviously happened between them after that though . . . :S


I also like that Nana has shelled out to be a character that was just more that just cool and bad ass. Her inner conflicts makes her really funny, interesting, and a character I can relate to. I just really, really don't like her somewhat skewed view of her relationships with people.

Personally, I can't and won't ever acknowledge something like an "adrenaline high" like the one gotten from singing on stage as more important than having a family. That's just my opinion. Maybe I relate so much to Ren because he and I share similar values.

Career v. Happiness-- In real life scenarios I would agree with you. In Ye Olde Americana it might have been that the men worked and women cleaned house (hey, like Japan! lol), but in New America:

Men Work, Women Work, and Mexicans clean house.

Filipinos for those us Japanese who live in Hawaii. >.>

Why should I marry a chick who cooks and cleans, when I can marry a chick whose salary could pay for an army of housekeepers and nannies? That's just simple economic sense.

. . . then again, they are Ren and Nana live in Japan. They don't have any Mexicans. :( Maybe they should order out for Thai.

Racial Crassness aside, I don't think it was about whether Ren would be willing to be a Shufu-Dad or not. I honestly think he would. Can you imagine Ren NOT being willing to stay home and raise the kids? The guy was willing to not go to Tokyo and keep up his life doing odd jobs if Nana would raise kids with him. The guy offered to leave trapnest too for that.

"I'm thinking I have to leave Trapnest. Would that appease you? If Yasu stayed by your side your whole life, would that appease you? If Hachi lost the child and went back to Nobu, would that appease you? Now I am thinking that I need to leave Trapnest-- to hell with the pride of being a member!"

Nana even said it herself at one point-- "I knew Ren wanted children, I also knew having children wouldn't stop me from singing." While Aizawa never goes into detail about this, I'm guessing Nana just wouldn't want to take the 9 months out of her life to get pregnant and give birth. Also whether you're a husband or wife, raising kids is a serious obligation that makes one's life not about "me." There's someone more important to take care of.

I can't actually conceive of Nana accepting someone else as more important than herself. That's really different from Ren, who basically treated everyone like they were more important.

The distance that Ren puts between himself and Nana at times-- I don't think it's escapism. Almost every time Ren has distanced himself from Nana it has been:

a) Either for her sake-- trying to give her the room and freedom to do as she likes
b) to refuse to respond to her selfishness (like when he refused to take Shin's place on stage)

In the case of (b), even this could be for her sake, as Ren knows that Nana has a lot of inner conflicts and refuses to coddle the worst parts of her. Also remember that Ren is a self-made man and former Playboy. He's got confidence and experience with women. Even if he is now loyal to Nana, he knows what is and isn't acceptable behavior in a relationship.

"I'm tired of trying to coax her." It's natural that he would get tired if he's the one who is always having to make reparations with her, and he knows this is unfair. I don't think Ren was afraid of being abandoned like Nana, but I do think he fears her not being able to accept him. That fear and his own loneliness are things he was never good at dealing with (without drugs . . .).

Of course, this is over-reading a bit. As Nobu said once, Ren was never as strong as everyone else thought. He couldn't be the blazing hero young-Nobu envisioned, or the pillar of strength Nana needed. Only Yasu really understood Ren.

Wait, that's not true either. Even if Nana needed Ren to be strong, the fact is that she always knew his inner frailty, and always worried about him. Example, in the scene when when Ren and Nana met up in her room and he proposed to her, before that Nana looked at him and thought:

"He's gotten so thin-- I wonder if he's eating properly." You could see by her expression and seriousness that she really was worried about him, and I'm sure more than just about him losing a few pounds.

The sad thing is that Nana always knew about Ren's inner frailties and worried about him-- she just couldn't do anything for him, even though Ren always only asked for simple things like Shounen Jump or Miso soup.

One of my favorite lines from Nana was from that same morning scene before Ren left for the UK-- "Such a pathetic breakfast. If I could have prepared some eggs, I would have been happy."

While its rare, at times Aizawa clearly depicts the woman in Nana. Even if this is "the 21st century." Even if she's a crazy singer rock babe. Even if she's got her pride. At some level, doing things like cooking for Ren, caring for Ren, they have deep meaning for her. I think being with Hachi has made Nana think about the "woman" side of her more, and confused her more. I really like that line about the eggs.

. . . and if you over-analyze and read into everything like me, you interpret the line as "Ren, I also really wish that I could give you the child you desire." Because it's a line about her wishing she could have given him eggs. xD

Shin is the awesomeness!!!! The next Nana should movie (if they were to make one), should devote 90% of the time to following Shin, finally giving him the screen time he deserves!

The guy characters in general are just awesome. Shin, Ren, Yasu, I even like Takumi and Nobu too for different reasons.

. . . hmm, I forgetting someone? Oh yeah, Kyousuke is also really cool. :P

@Shin-Reira-- It's so unfair. Women in Japan can get married at 16 with no legal issues (in Japan, the legal age is 16 for women and 18 for men). It's gender discrimination I tell you! :(

@Shouji-- if you go back and re-read the Shouji arc, I think you understand that her attitude towards the relationship was inherently flawed, and she made mistakes that were small but not trivial. It's not that Hachi did really badly with Shouji, it's just that she didn't really try to understand him-- where as Yuri is trying really hard imo.
 
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goal

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

Hey Fujihara, in the previous discussions in this board we discussed whether IS REN TUKUMI’S CHILD OR NOBU’S? and I am sure he is Takumi's child. I will re-paste why I think so.
The last time Nana had her period before her pregnancy was July 6(vol 8 ch 26, pg 6). So that is the next day after Trapnet's tour ended which was July 5 (Vol 5, ch 16, pg 3). She ofcourse slept with Tukumi that night. So she would be ovulating exactly 2 weeks from then, which is July 20. The next time she sees Tukumi is in exactly 2 weeks(vol 6 ch 20, pg 1). She mentions that she hasnt heard from him in 2 weeks and that night when Nobu walked her home, Tukumi showed up infront of her apartment. The next person she sleeps with after that is again Tukumi on July 29th, when Blast have their performance. Then 2 days after that is the first time she sleeps with Nobu. She has a relationship with Nobu till Aug 31 ( 9 days after the firewords which were on Aug 22(vol 7ch23 pg 12). On the night of Aug 31 Tukumi shows up at Hachi's door and finds she is pregnant.
So during the possible dates of ovulation/conception which are July 19-21, she only was with Tukumi. Another pointer ofcourse is the fact that Nobu used condoms each time. Anyway I am quite positive it is Tukumi's child because of the dates that I have calculated and I hope you are convinced too.
I will have to say that this manga really is about the two Nanas and it is they who deserve 90% of the screen time. Both women are complex characters, with strengths and weaknesses. Their flaws highlights the human element and so we can relate to that. And things dont always work out perfectly in the real world. We journey through their struggles and tests and choices and mistakes. It makes the manga very realistic and I find myself able to relate to many aspects of the manga.

It is a lot of fun breaking down the characters because every character has many shades. Ai Yazawa has given good screen time to the side characters and given them enough depth and personality to shine on their own.

I love the fact that this manga is 82 chapters and ongoing. That is what has allowed this read to be like a journey. Brilliant work by Ai Yazawa!
 
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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

I highly doubt Yazawa was thinking in depth about fertility cycles when she wrote the manga. :S

I think what events occur from here will be more dependent on the flow of the story rather than real-life science. The impossible happens in manga precisely because it's more dramatic than what happens in real life (usually). People write stories about the exceptional events, not the boring ones. David slew Goliath, but think of all the little guys Goliath killed off before that-- and no one remembers their stories. Anyway, my guess is that it will never be revealed in the manga whose child Ren really is. I just can't see Nobu Hachi and Takumi going together for a D.N.A. test. xD

Also, about the screen time, I said that in part because it annoyed me that Shin got like what, 2% of the screen time in the moveies? Reira even less? Neither were developed as characters, and needless to say, their relationship didn't get developed at all. You can call the Shin-Reira story a "side arc" if you wish, but the fact is that you flat-out can't tell the Nana story without talking about Shin and Reira, as all the recent tragedies--Blast stopping it's activities, Ren and Nana refusing to meet, Takumi and Reira sleeping together, Nana going solo, eventually leading to Ren going to go pick up Reira and DYING in the process-- it all started to fall apart from when Shin/Reira broke up, so their story is pretty important.

If you were to make a hypothetical 4th/5th movie, you'd pretty much need the whole movie or at least half of it to actually go back and develop them as characters since they didn't get any time int he first two movies, develop their relationship to all the other characters, show their relationship developing, etc. etc. before you could actually move the "main" plot along again. That's what I meant.

. . . plus, if you are Hawaii Japanese like me, you are necessarily a Yuna Ito fan. :P

Also I think it's pretty atari mae that what makes the series interesting is how much the reader can get caught up in/empathize with the characters, which of course means that they have to have flaws that make them human. That's completely basic to literature, especially a manga like Nana that's all about human relationships.
 
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baboysai

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Re: [Shoujo] Nana by Yazawa Ai

but I believe the movies were enough. I don't want a part 3 or 4. :s if they want to make a live-action that much, they should just turn it into a drama series instead of movie sequels.
 
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