Discussion New Roles and New Rules Suggestion Thread

[GrySun]

Submissions for new roles need to follow the next format in order to be considered:

I. [Place Holder Name]

II. [Affiliation]

III. [Short Description]

IV. [Long Description/Idea/Premise/Scope]

V. [Priority/RoleType/Interactions/other Specifics]

Spoiler: Examples of Approved roles

I. Troublemaker

II. Town

III. Can once per game make a Day phase lynch be the top 2 voted people instead of regular 1 top voted person. Every player has 2 votes but cannot vote the same player twice.

IV. PMs the host on the night before the day he wishes to use his power on. Host announces at start of day that the 2 top voted players will be lynched.
Everyone gets 2 votes that they can use on 2 individual players. Both can be moved once like usual. Example:
!votekill1 PlayerX
!votekill2 PlayerY
!votelock2 (locks on PlayerY).

Any other format is also fine as long as players specify who they are voting and if it's a new vote or they are changing their first one.

V. Doesn't have a Priority, happens at the end of night after all other actions. Doesn't target another player. Primary role.

Since it happens at the end of a phase, the player can be both blocked and killed to prevent it happening.

I. Psychiatrist

II. Townie

III. The Psychiatrist investigates one person per night phase to see if the player has a Secondary Role. They get a "Your target has a secondary role" if that is the case, and a "Your target does not have a secondary role" if it's not. The Psychiatrist does not find out the allegiance of the target.

IV. It's a counter for scum secondaries without outright revealing them, leaving room for guess work and player reading.

V. Priority 2, Primary Role.

Current roles Approved for testing here

Rules on including those in a game:

• A host can take any of these roles and test them in their game. Depending on results from testing the role it will either be included into the Role list or need more changes/testing.
• A host at the very least has to announce in the opening post of the game that new roles are being tested, or alternatively even more specifically reveal the roles that are being tested.

Link to the last update post with the roles that are either close to approval or were not approved: here.

 

[GrySun]

Speaking of a niche for roles to fill. I feel there should be better roles for the third party. A serial killer being basically a lone mafia member without a team..... I think a lone janitor or a lone assassin would work better than that ..... Especially an assassin. More effective for a third party to have daykills/day actions. Both townies and mafia have day roles. Third parties don't.

So suggest:

Desperado (3rd Party) - A reckless, furious ruffian who kills during the day not the night similar to the mafia's assassin. Would send targets via PM to the Host. Objective is similar to the serial killer.

^Not adding anything new to this role as if it becomes too OP then it will never get approved.

Idk, someone smarter than me might take this and make it better.....

I would rather see some simpler roles, most of these ones look way too "game-changing".
This translates in high difficulty to give them its proper use when hosting.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 8, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 8, 2018 ---

Yep the SK killing at day only would be lit, but it could also make him quite op since there's no real conexion between him and other players (where townies catch the mafias).
Also making him an Assassin would make him untraceable, only a det would be able to catch him with its role... and that SK could just kill the det before he brings any results first thing in the day.

But I like the idea, sounds cool for a high-scale game in which the regular SK is just doomed to lose, it would also bring caution for the common "role talk" we usually have on early days.

Nah, that‘s just pointless.
If you want an SK with some special powers, then just put a solo assassin instead of an SK. Or a solo Janitor. Some hosts did that, like Panda in Bleach game.

 

[Crescent Jinx]

Nah, that‘s just pointless.
If you want an SK with some special powers, then just put a solo assassin instead of an SK. Or a solo Janitor. Some hosts did that, like Panda in Bleach game.

@Emperor Spriggan see I told as a host this could be done.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 8, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 8, 2018 ---

But really, @GrySun, I did say

Idk, someone smarter than me might take this and make it better.....

^Because with the third party I feel
you can make it more op as they already an underdog

 

[GrySun]

@Emperor Spriggan see I told as a host this could be done.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 8, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 8, 2018 ---

But really, @GrySun, I did say



^Because with the third party I feel
you can make it more op as they already an underdog

Not quite sure what you mean? You want stronger TPs? The term of „third party“ is broad, a 2nd mafia is technically also a third party. It‘s up to a host whether he wants a simple sk, mentor or w/e in the game apart from just town and one mafia group.

 

[Crescent Jinx]

Not quite sure what you mean? You want stronger TPs? The term of „third party“ is broad, a 2nd mafia is technically also a third party. It‘s up to a host whether he wants a simple sk, mentor or w/e in the game apart from just town and one mafia group.

In my mind/opinion, I prefer new townie and mafia roles to be simpler as not to play havoc on the balance of a game, but I feel third party can really push uniqueness because they are an individual vs the mass.

Third parties are such underdogs on here, sure we have had a few people close to winning, but after so many games, the closest people to win with those roles have been really good players who would normally make it to the end (or close to the end) no matter their role.

While we may have problems with new roles suggestions overlapping already established townie or mafia roles, that almost is nonexistent for third party suggestions.

We have SK which is based on mafia member — one of the weaker mafia roles; and as SK you are telling them to win without a team + be the last person standing..... So any extra flavor added to this role would help the the third party, which is the direction I was going with Desperado.

Santa is a good role (I think) but we rarely have it in the games, I have never seen this role used in any game I have been in. And I know I am not the only one. Never even see a present be used.

Mentor is common and potentially a good role but they are extremely likely to get blocked the first night when recruiting or recruit a mafia early which hurts them in the long run. Plus I have never see a mentee actually play like they are suppose by sacrificing themselves to save their mentor.

SS is still not approved.

And lovers has its own issues that already discussed.

So the roles we do have seem like they are there more to cause confusion in the game — to help the mafia — as oppose to actually letting a third party win. Also some of the winning conditions for the third party seem pretty impossible under normal game circumstances.

 

[GrySun]

In my mind/opinion, I prefer new townie and mafia roles to be simpler as not to play havoc on the balance of a game, but I feel third party can really push uniqueness because they are an individual vs the mass.

Third parties are such underdogs on here, sure we have had a few people close to winning, but after so many games, the closest people to win with those roles have been really good players who would normally make it to the end (or close to the end) no matter their role.

While we may have problems with new roles suggestions overlapping already established townie or mafia roles, that almost is nonexistent for third party suggestions.

We have SK which is based on mafia member — one of the weaker mafia roles; and as SK you are telling them to win without a team + be the last person standing..... So any extra flavor added to this role would help the the third party, which is the direction I was going with Desperado.

Santa is a good role (I think) but we rarely have it in the games, I have never seen this role used in any game I have been in. And I know I am not the only one. Never even see a present be used.

Mentor is common and potentially a good role but they are extremely likely to get blocked the first night when recruiting or recruit a mafia early which hurts them in the long run. Plus I have never see a mentee actually play like they are suppose by sacrificing themselves to save their mentor.

SS is still not approved.

And lovers has its own issues that already discussed.

So the roles we do have seem like they are there more to cause confusion in the game — to help the mafia — as oppose to actually letting a third party win. Also some of the winning conditions for the third party seem pretty impossible under normal game circumstances.

I‘m afraid I still don‘t get what you mean. Your suggestion doesn‘t change any of the problems you mentioned for TPs...?

The real reason why winning with third party is hard and they’re underdogs is because you only have 1 life - your own. There‘s a lot of misfortune that can happen for you to die and it‘s game over. Random townie daykill, getting suspected and lynched, nightkilled by the mafia...
No matter what fluff you add to them that won‘t change. All it does is giving a host more options to make a role list with, and there‘s already a whole lot one can do with third party. So adding a whole bunch of special TP roles, which are just a mafia role, while many games don‘t even have a TP to begin with is quite pointless, and even misses your initial idea behind doing that.

Mentor is extremely likely to get blocked the first night when recruiting or recruit a mafia early which hurts them in the long run.

You mean his recruitment failing? No that‘s not true, most games I remember the recruitment happened N1. He can hit and kill mafias, but that‘s not bad for him necessarily. His problem is him dying to something.

Santa is a good role (I think) but we rarely have it in the games, I have never seen this role used in any game I have been in. And I know I am not the only one. Never even see a present be used.

It‘s used by hosts that want to use one. Why didn‘t you have one in your game?

So the roles we do have seem like they are there more to cause confusion in the game — to help the mafia — as oppose to actually letting a third party win. Also some of the winning conditions for the third party seem pretty impossible under normal game circumstances.

No. The TP roles are just that. Solo-players with different goals/playstyle. What extra confusion do these roles do which normal town/mafia roles or player actions at day don‘t already do?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 8, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 8, 2018 ---

I think you‘re saying you don‘t like how hard TP roles have it to win, so you say we need even more TP roles with powers. How does that help?

 

[Lambu]

Nah, that‘s just pointless.
If you want an SK with some special powers, then just put a solo assassin instead of an SK. Or a solo Janitor. Some hosts did that, like Panda in Bleach game.

Right
Though what if there's two mafias and you want a daykilling serial ki... ok nevermind, that sounds bad.

Santa is a good role (I think) but we rarely have it in the games, I have never seen this role used in any game I have been in. And I know I am not the only one. Never even see a present be used.

Actually when I started playing it was a common role choice.
But people in this community hate christmas and they always kill Santa on Night 2 at the latest.


TPs are quite weak on paper yeah, their win depends highly on luck since they usually have to reach an hypothetical "empty endgame". Lovers case resonate a lot with this issue since its practically impossible they make it unless a threesome enters the fray.

Thats why the idea of the Shapeshifter sounds quite nice, but with the Ilussion thingy its also confusing <<< this being the reason for why its hard to approve.
Maybe a simpler version of it like the classic Flutist would be a better/less heavy option.

Flutist (Third Party)

Each Night Phase, the Flutist will choose a player to enchant with his music (be it Townie or Mafia, doesn't matter). The enchantment will only be noticed when the player dies.
If half of the living players are under the Flutist influence, he or she wins.

Kind of simple, but effective.

 

[Copy Panda]

Maybe add that they can pick between playing flute and redirecting the night action of one the afflicted?

 

[Hermit]

Right
Though what if there's two mafias and you want a daykilling serial ki... ok nevermind, that sounds bad.



Actually when I started playing it was a common role choice.
But people in this community hate christmas and they always kill Santa on Night 2 at the latest.


TPs are quite weak on paper yeah, their win depends highly on luck since they usually have to reach an hypothetical "empty endgame". Lovers case resonate a lot with this issue since its practically impossible they make it unless a threesome enters the fray.

Thats why the idea of the Shapeshifter sounds quite nice, but with the Ilussion thingy its also confusing <<< this being the reason for why its hard to approve.
Maybe a simpler version of it like the classic Flutist would be a better/less heavy option.

Flutist (Third Party)

Each Night Phase, the Flutist will choose a player to enchant with his music (be it Townie or Mafia, doesn't matter). The enchantment will only be noticed when the player dies.
If half of the living players are under the Flutist influence, he or she wins.

Kind of simple, but effective.

How are the Illusions confusing?
And having the Flutist redirect night actions doesn't make him another bar Keeper?

 

[GrySun]

Right
Though what if there's two mafias and you want a daykilling serial ki... ok nevermind, that sounds bad.



Actually when I started playing it was a common role choice.
But people in this community hate christmas and they always kill Santa on Night 2 at the latest.


TPs are quite weak on paper yeah, their win depends highly on luck since they usually have to reach an hypothetical "empty endgame". Lovers case resonate a lot with this issue since its practically impossible they make it unless a threesome enters the fray.

Thats why the idea of the Shapeshifter sounds quite nice, but with the Ilussion thingy its also confusing <<< this being the reason for why its hard to approve.
Maybe a simpler version of it like the classic Flutist would be a better/less heavy option.

Flutist (Third Party)

Each Night Phase, the Flutist will choose a player to enchant with his music (be it Townie or Mafia, doesn't matter). The enchantment will only be noticed when the player dies.
If half of the living players are under the Flutist influence, he or she wins.

Kind of simple, but effective.

What‘s confusing about Shapeshifter? Only you and Panda are confused by him iirc. A lot of text, but it‘s simple. A more „tanky“ TP due to hiding while killing, and keeping players alive until something else is used on them.

This reminds me how SS and a few others are basically already approved to be tested, but they‘re still somehow procedurally stuck

 

[Copy Panda]

Any in particular to be tested?

 

[Crescent Jinx]

What‘s confusing about Shapeshifter? Only you and Panda are confused by him iirc. A lot of text, but it‘s simple. A more „tanky“ TP due to hiding while killing, and keeping players alive until something else is used on them.

This reminds me how SS and a few others are basically already approved to be tested, but they‘re still somehow procedurally stuck

Like substitute teacher?

Right
Though what if there's two mafias and you want a daykilling serial ki... ok nevermind, that sounds bad.



Actually when I started playing it was a common role choice.
But people in this community hate christmas and they always kill Santa on Night 2 at the latest.


TPs are quite weak on paper yeah, their win depends highly on luck since they usually have to reach an hypothetical "empty endgame". Lovers case resonate a lot with this issue since its practically impossible they make it unless a threesome enters the fray.

Thats why the idea of the Shapeshifter sounds quite nice, but with the Ilussion thingy its also confusing <<< this being the reason for why its hard to approve.
Maybe a simpler version of it like the classic Flutist would be a better/less heavy option.

Flutist (Third Party)

Each Night Phase, the Flutist will choose a player to enchant with his music (be it Townie or Mafia, doesn't matter). The enchantment will only be noticed when the player dies.
If half of the living players are under the Flutist influence, he or she wins.

Kind of simple, but effective.

The role is interesting and sounds fun to play yet... This seems extremely hard because there is no added benefit like there is with SS who gets to kill the player and leave an illusion that breaks when an action is used against them.

But at the end of the day, I think a TP role should have some form of killing power. Like how most mafia can kill.

I‘m afraid I still don‘t get what you mean. Your suggestion doesn‘t change any of the problems you mentioned for TPs...?
The real reason why winning with third party is hard and they’re underdogs is because you only have 1 life - your own. There‘s a lot of misfortune that can happen for you to die and it‘s game over. Random townie daykill, getting suspected and lynched, nightkilled by the mafia...
No matter what fluff you add to them that won‘t change. All it does is giving a host more options to make a role list with, and there‘s already a whole lot one can do with third party. So adding a whole bunch of special TP roles, which are just a mafia role, while many games don‘t even have a TP to begin with is quite pointless, and even misses your initial idea behind doing that.

Well the lone Assassin is - in theory - a more improved SK with a day action since we have no TP roles with day actions. Plus during the day his victims wouldn’t have protection like they would at night. Sure it’s very simple and someone could make a lone mafia assassin, but we never treat the second mafia group as TP. We treat them as mafia. Like when my RWBY oranges won, it was a mafia win — not a TP win. Also I am not trying to solve the problems. I am just saying the TP issues and there should be more choice for a host to choose from when wanting to add a TP.

You mean his recruitment failing? No that‘s not true, most games I remember the recruitment happened N1. He can hit and kill mafias, but that‘s not bad for him necessarily. His problem is him dying to something.



It‘s used by hosts that want to use one. Why didn‘t you have one in your game?

Well there is three problems with mentor that I have seen arise. Not that it is bad but that 2 of the problems involve recruiting on that first night.

Because it wasn’t Chridtnas? I can’t be the only one who thought a Santa is only used at Christmas?? Lol.

No. The TP roles are just that. Solo-players with different goals/playstyle. What extra confusion do these roles do which normal town/mafia roles or player actions at day don‘t already do?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 8, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 8, 2018 ---

I think you‘re saying you don‘t like how hard TP roles have it to win, so you say we need even more TP roles with powers. How does that help?

I want more roles for the TP. And because I am biased to how hard a TP has to work to win that I am fine with done of the role options being potentially OP....... but they are alone so if they go down, they lose. I don’t see as much a problem as adding unique roles to the town or mafia which have a nice selection of good, bad, and strong roles already.

 

[Lambu]

Maybe add that they can pick between playing flute and redirecting the night action of one the afflicted?

Nah, redirecting actions is already covered with the BK, besides in that case the redirect would be assured = no more faith in your night actions = chaos

How are the Illusions confusing?

What‘s confusing about Shapeshifter? Only you and Panda are confused by him iirc. A lot of text, but it‘s simple. A more „tanky“ TP due to hiding while killing, and keeping players alive until something else is used on them.

This reminds me how SS and a few others are basically already approved to be tested, but they‘re still somehow procedurally stuck

How the shifter works isnt the issue, its basically a Hider that "kills" his target.

Whats the issue is that "not dead" target that remains in the game. The conditions for the Ilussion's second death are kind of hard to follow.
Wouldnt it be easier if the Shifter's victim just stays alive? Feels like overcomplicating the thing in an attempt to nerf the role when its really not that necessary if you think about it. The Shifters targets will most surely die some way or another in game (via lynches or night kills) so Idk why tripping your fingers with that.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 8, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 8, 2018 ---

The role is interesting and sounds fun to play yet... This seems extremely hard because there is no added benefit like there is with SS who gets to kill the player and leave an illusion that breaks when an action is used against them.

In the SS case killing his targets is a bad thing, since he wins if his "shadows" remain in the game. By making the ilussions so fragile we just make his win way more difficult.

 

[Hermit]

How the shifter works isnt the issue, its basically a Hider that "kills" his target.

Whats the issue is that "not dead" target that remains in the game. The conditions for the Ilussion's second death are kind of hard to follow.
Wouldnt it be easier if the Shifter's victim just stays alive? Feels like overcomplicating the thing in an attempt to nerf the role when its really not that necessary if you think about it. The Shifters targets will most surely die some way or another in game (via lynches or night kills) so Idk why tripping your fingers with that.

No, the Shifter's victim should still remain in the game. But all their actions from that point on should have no effect on the game. Night actions get no results, their vote kills wont count towards lynches, stuff like that?
About the shifter's targets dying in the end, why not just change the win condition of the Shifter then? Instead of half the remaining players make it 5, just like Santa's win condition.

 

[GrySun]

Nah, redirecting actions is already covered with the BK, besides in that case the redirect would be assured = no more faith in your night actions = chaos




How the shifter works isnt the issue, its basically a Hider that "kills" his target.

Whats the issue is that "not dead" target that remains in the game. The conditions for the Ilussion's second death are kind of hard to follow.
Wouldnt it be easier if the Shifter's victim just stays alive? Feels like overcomplicating the thing in an attempt to nerf the role when its really not that necessary if you think about it. The Shifters targets will most surely die some way or another in game (via lynches or night kills) so Idk why tripping your fingers with that.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 8, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 8, 2018 ---

In the SS case killing his targets is a bad thing, since he wins if his "shadows" remain in the game. By making the ilussions so fragile we just make his win way more difficult.

Me and Vand talked about it I think, and in the end we both understood well how Illusions shatter, and it’s easy to follow. Just an action used on them.
You mean you‘d like it more if they didn‘t shatter? Wouldn‘t that be too strong?

Certainly something you should‘ve brought up in the other thread, and ask the purebloods

 

[Vandred]

I think what would make the Desperado different from a lone mafia Assassin (they way it's written, at least) is that he can't choose to kill at night, but has to do it during the day? Which sounds like it would be an easy downside to live with, but if the Despy wants to lie low instead of alerting the mafia(s) to his presence right from the start, for instance, it's one less option to choose from for him. Which would also make it slightly less OP, I suppose.
But even if the Despy role were identical to Assassin, the same can be said about SK being a vanilla mafia who starts with no teammates

The point is in letting everyone know that they are TP, so the other players don't have to wonder if the lone Assassin/vanilla mafia in question had a bunch of mates or not when they nab him.

That said, I still believe the biggest hurdle in the way of a TP victory is having to avoid getting lynched and nightkilled until you're one of 3-5 people left. And as for every other role or faction, how you (and others) play during the day is the biggest factor for getting that far most of the time. No special role can help with that

 

[GrySun]

And as for every other role or faction, how you (and others) play during the day is the biggest factor for getting that far most of the time. No special role can help with that

@Holt

 

[Copy Panda]

Nah, redirecting actions is already covered with the BK, besides in that case the redirect would be assured = no more faith in your night actions = chaos.

Well yes but they don't get to mystify, they have to pick one or the other every night.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 8, 2018, Original Post Date: Aug 8, 2018 ---

I think what would make the Desperado different from a lone mafia Assassin (they way it's written, at least) is that he can't choose to kill at night, but has to do it during the day? Which sounds like it would be an easy downside to live with, but if the Despy wants to lie low instead of alerting the mafia(s) to his presence right from the start, for instance, it's one less option to choose from for him. Which would also make it slightly less OP, I suppose.
But even if the Despy role were identical to Assassin, the same can be said about SK being a vanilla mafia who starts with no teammates

The point is in letting everyone know that they are TP, so the other players don't have to wonder if the lone Assassin/vanilla mafia in question had a bunch of mates or not when they nab him.

That said, I still believe the biggest hurdle in the way of a TP victory is having to avoid getting lynched and nightkilled until you're one of 3-5 people left. And as for every other role or faction, how you (and others) play during the day is the biggest factor for getting that far most of the time. No special role can help with that

Yeah being TP is tough as nails, Im starting to think their win condition is unreasonable.. Like Belse couldn't really win in that situation; you get voted out too easily. Essentially, a TP like that is almost like a feature to add to the game, a highlight of sorts, but if the TP relies on both surviving and killin alone, compare to Santa who has to survive 5 nights or mentor and lover who have some kind of buffer in terms of nunbers, is too weak. Even lovers and mentor are on the weak side.

 

[GrySun]

Like Belse couldn't really win in that situation; you get voted out too easily.

She got voted out because she had 0 credibility She could've won it because she was lucky and never got targeted by the mafia, but didn't do enough at the day phases. Besides, letting you and Cres alive that game who are pretty much confirmed, and instead killing Gryff who could've been framed was a bad call...

So that's a bad example. SK may be the weakest, but only by little if at all, and he's also the simplest and most straight forward.
Santa can be blocked and need to survive even more nights, only 1 block is already huge detriment. Mentor and lovers are 2 people, but also die together, meaning twice as likely for them to die unlike the SK/Santa.

 

[Lambu]

No, the Shifter's victim should still remain in the game. But all their actions from that point on should have no effect on the game. Night actions get no results, their vote kills wont count towards lynches, stuff like that?
About the shifter's targets dying in the end, why not just change the win condition of the Shifter then? Instead of half the remaining players make it 5, just like Santa's win condition.

Well yeah b-but...but...

Shut up Empi

Me and Vand talked about it I think, and in the end we both understood well how Illusions shatter, and it’s easy to follow. Just an action used on them.
You mean you‘d like it more if they didn‘t shatter? Wouldn‘t that be too strong?

Certainly something you should‘ve brought up in the other thread, and ask the purebloods

Man I skipped all that convo, too heavy stuff Guess I'll have to then.

I dont think it would be too strong though, actually the fact that the SS ilussions shatter that easily only brings us to square one with "giving TPs the chance to win"
As it is SS has as much probability of succeding as a SK of getting to the end, the only difference is that he cannot be targetted by the mafia at night.

The purebloods are nice and elitists yeah, but we should ask the plebs from time to time dont you think Herr Gry?

Well yes but they don't get to mystify, they have to pick one or the other every night.

Uhm, if I knew there's a character that can redirect actions ingame I would get quite paranoid, maybe it sounds worse than it is in reality but...
In contrast making that Flutist capable of making his targets "sleep" in some way sounds appealing.