Discussion Official Rachel Discussion Thread

[kkck]

I'm going from "Trash human" to "Not all bad." That's as far as I'm willing to bump her up.

Her rejection of fate is something I can't not like. The problem is the rest of her and everything she's done is still pretty awful. So I'd still never characterize her as good.

For me that is basically what would make her a trash person. Her objectives are hard to not sympathize with however over the course of the series she has shown she is willing to do anything and everything to get it done. And in this case this specifically implies presumably keeping bam prisoner at the cave, throwing him literally to fug, killing two of aguero's companions (she didn't do it herself though) and stabbing dan in the knees (which she did because of how petty and small she is along with perhaps not having it in her to personally kill someone at the time). Then of course there is the bit with her murdering akaraptor and taking part in freeing hoaquin. Which is perhaps the worst thing she has done considering that next to hoaquin hitler is an adorable little puppy that couldn't harm anything with it's baby teeth. While I can't hate her goal of rejecting fate, she is an awful human being who is well on her way to being abject evil.

 

[Charlie]

I left her on the poll as evil incarnate; Lets not forget that despite knowing who Bam really is she tried to kill him and take up the spot light.
Dis bish need to die and die in screaming pain and horror.

 

[shaheer]

I'm going from "Trash human" to "Not all bad." That's as far as I'm willing to bump her up.

Her rejection of fate is something I can't not like. The problem is the rest of her and everything she's done is still pretty awful. So I'd still never characterize her as good.

That might work for you and say folks with the belief system outside tower or sth. But if the towers internal belief system is fate is absolute then rejecting it is causing more harm than otherwise. Hwya ryun said once that the guides know where they die and hell joe killed one without giving any concern to that. Not to mention so far the prophecy was working smoothly with Enryu coming in giving the thorn to the people of the tower and Baam getting the first fragment without any one telling baam that its his fate.
also she killed akraptor i cant imagine her to be ' not bad' just because of a glorified speech of fate rejection when her actions for that fate rejections were more horrible than otherwise. Seriously you think killing prince akraptor attempted murder of baam is worthwile for a fate rejection when her fate or whatever that is is not like you ll die a horrible death etc etc rather its Baam will get the thorn and defeat zahard (if the prophecy is true)?

 

[Jammin]

That might work for you and say folks with the belief system outside tower or sth. But if the towers internal belief system is fate is absolute then rejecting it is causing more harm than otherwise. Hwya ryun said once that the guides know where they die and hell joe killed one without giving any concern to that. Not to mention so far the prophecy was working smoothly with Enryu coming in giving the thorn to the people of the tower and Baam getting the first fragment without any one telling baam that its his fate.
also she killed akraptor i cant imagine her to be ' not bad' just because of a glorified speech of fate rejection when her actions for that fate rejections were more horrible than otherwise. Seriously you think killing prince akraptor attempted murder of baam is worthwile for a fate rejection when her fate or whatever that is is not like you ll die a horrible death etc etc rather its Baam will get the thorn and defeat zahard (if the prophecy is true)?

I think it's important to highlight "Not all bad". So she's still bad just not entirely bad. Like going from pure black to kind of a very dark grey. She's still a terrible person but there are aspects of her I grudgingly respect a little now.

A character who is just accepting an outcome they don't want as fate because of a prophesy is weak in my book. One who sees the flow of events leading to something they don't want and says "Hell no!" that I can respect.

Which is basically what Gurren Lagann was about,.

Not saying that justifies what Rachel has done. Just that, for all the bad things that Rachel most certainly is, she's got a strength to her that zealots lack. That's an admirable trait. Even if it's her only one I have give her at least a little credit for it.

 

[Nii]

I still stick with trash human being because she's done way too much to respect her in any way. She could have went about this way differently, like actually together with Bam for example. And even if that isn't what she wanted bc of "opposing fate" there was no definite need to harm everyone she gets involved with in some way. Every person is just someone to use for her advantage, she's a petty person and a massive coward.
I can understand her reasons, but a somewhat decent human being definitely would've handled all this a bit differently. Maybe at some point, when we actually learn everything about Baam's and Rachel's past, I will feel differently, but I doubt that I will ever consider her more than a trash human being.

Though to clarify my thoughts, I don't hate her at this point. With all the recent reveals her behaviour became somewhat understandable in a twisted kind of way, but that won't change that I consider her a trash human being.

 

[Ripcord]

I still stick with trash human being because she's done way too much to respect her in any way. She could have went about this way differently, like actually together with Bam for example. And even if that isn't what she wanted bc of "opposing fate" there was no definite need to harm everyone she gets involved with in some way. Every person is just someone to use for her advantage, she's a petty person and a massive coward.
I can understand her reasons, but a somewhat decent human being definitely would've handled all this a bit differently. Maybe at some point, when we actually learn everything about Baam's and Rachel's past, I will feel differently, but I doubt that I will ever consider her more than a trash human being.

Though to clarify my thoughts, I don't hate her at this point. With all the recent reveals her behaviour became somewhat understandable in a twisted kind of way, but that won't change that I consider her a trash human being.

Perhaps she could have changed from the path Headon set her on, but she didn't. She wanted to go up the tower but was only given one path to walk: that of FUG. I suppose she could have rejected it, but I feel a small amount of sympathy for her because she was manipulated from the start.

So many people say she tried to kill Baam.... but she did not. This is the perspective of Baam's companions. She was following Hwayrun's path (to separate Baam from his companions, not a whole lot better) and for all we know she still is, even though she thinks she's in control. I think that will be the biggest shock to her psyche.

I don't think Rachel is worthy of redemption but I still hold out there is more to her story we aren't seeing.

 

[kkck]

Perhaps she could have changed from the path Headon set her on, but she didn't. She wanted to go up the tower but was only given one path to walk: that of FUG. I suppose she could have rejected it, but I feel a small amount of sympathy for her because she was manipulated from the start.

So many people say she tried to kill Baam.... but she did not. This is the perspective of Baam's companions. She was following Hwayrun's path (to separate Baam from his companions, not a whole lot better) and for all we know she still is, even though she thinks she's in control. I think that will be the biggest shock to her psyche.

I don't think Rachel is worthy of redemption but I still hold out there is more to her story we aren't seeing.

I am still not entirely sure of how rachel is connected to fug honestly. Seeing how things played out it is kinda weird that even now fug is still banking on baam and rachel seems to have been sidelined by them. I mean, fug did try to give baam the thorn and there has never been any indication they care to give one to rachel.

As for her trying to kill baam, from what I get she absolutely did try to do that. She even said "sorry bam, you have to die here" or something to that effect. However baam lived because fug wanted him. I don't recall rachel even being surprised at baam being alive though. Still, seeing how things have played out it doesn't seem like fug is fully invested in rachel overall. She isn't an actual slayer candidate, hwa ryun is ultimately assigned to baam and he calls him her god. Even jinsung calls baam his god. And when it came to giving someone a thorn they gave it to baam, not rachel. Giving is to rachel was not even an option. Of course, baam doesn't have unanimous support from fug but rachel doesn't have any support at all. Otherwise she would at least be considered for a slayer candidate.

 

[Ripcord]

Not implying FUG plans on using Rachel with the thorn or as a slayer because she's an irregular, but they had been using her, in the abusive sense of the word.

And you're right, perhaps she was told she had to kill Baam by pushing him off and she thought she was doing just that.... or that's what Hwaryun told Rachel to say. We may never know but given the lack of surprise by Rachel it may be what she said was just to influence Baam into abandoning his companions or at least into abandoning Rachel.

 

[shaheer]

well, the lack of surprise may be attributed to the fact that she was in fug she got to know who the new slayer candidate is. she is sharp and deduced it was baam. her expression when she met baam was 5-6 yrs after the act she did. Also killing Bam isn't the only bad thing she did she killed akraptor and prince and koons other teammates stabbed dan, partied with white knowing that he will most likely kill bam (since we are talking about expression her expression when she realized bam defeated hoaquin was enough to show what she wanted).
Suddenly she just jumped in to rant about how she is the savior and Destiny is BS.(when de shah didnt even name her the savior he said she had ominous aura around her, Bam is the one who requested on her behalf), She will not rest till folks dances around her and hail her as the savior and she gets to see what she wants to see and to do that she will manipulate destroy lives and use every vile way like killing a child who promised to be her legs and defend her.
Let's just revisit S1, Baam had 0 incentive to prat around saying I am irregular thus marking him decisively for FUG and the Zahard corps. None of the two options were good for him. He, of course, didn't know that his life is now marked for danger but he was keen and perceptive enough to realize being irregular will bring him unforeseen complications, yet he loudly declares he is irregular just so he and rachel can take the test and go up so that rachel can see the stars(whats in it for bam? nothing, yet he is selfless enough to do that). Then she just stands up because she calls BS to destiny and without any remorse or doubt push that boy into a chasm come out pretend she is down without shedding one single genuine tears at what she did.
Yep If that means to BS destiny I d rather embrace destiny

 

[Ripcord]

Yes all valid points. I don't dispute people's feelings for Rachel, I just think I see her closer to SIU's intent than some, particularly with the latest developments. I'm not suggesting she's gonna redeem herself but maybe she'll end up one hair's width short of tragic.

Small correction here to your statements, Yu Han Sung and FUG already knew Baam was an irregular. The entire "get Rachel injured" plot and getting Baam to announce his status was to force them all to take the administrator's test, probably as Hwaryun predicted they should do in order to hide Baam from Zahard. Crazy idea as I write this but maybe it was in Baam's benefit to be hidden since he wasn't strong yet and Zahard might have tried to take him out.

--- Double Post Merged, May 29, 2017, Original Post Date: May 29, 2017 ---

So maybe Rachel being the heroine was actually helping hide Baam and not killing him as it initially seemed.

 

[kkck]

Hide from what though? Until fug got involved it didn't seem like there was much need to hide bam to begin with. If anything baam went out of his way to hide from fug. And so far in the story we have not seen evidence that the actual zahard empire is taking any sort of action against baam.

 

[Charlie]

Wait - wait wait a sec. Wasn't it confirmed that Baam was a regular (chosen by the tower to enter) and Rachel was the irregular (entered only due to Baam being chosen and got in)?

 

[kkck]

Wait - wait wait a sec. Wasn't it confirmed that Baam was a regular (chosen by the tower to enter) and Rachel was the irregular (entered only due to Baam being chosen and got in)?

No. SIU has even gone out of his way to explain that bam and rachel are irregulars. However it is true that the definition of irregular is toyed with a bit since in some cases they are people "selected by the tower" and in others they are people who opened the door themselves. In all cases though, regulars are people chosen by headon which clearly does not apply for rachel or bam. I did suggest some time ago that the circumstances under which bam is an irregular and under which rachel is an irregular could be different given how headon treated them. So baam would be someone chosen by the tower who opened the door himself (by all means, a common irregular) and rachel would be someone who managed to kinda sneaked in via the door opened for baam (we saw her disappear into a golden door, my suggestion here would be that that was baam's door rather than rachel's). So rachel would be an irregular that wasn't chosen by the tower to enter.

 

[Charlie]

Guess my memory is bad, could have sworn I read a correction where it said Bam was chosen by the tower and thus not an irregular.

 

[Ripcord]

Hide from what though? Until fug got involved it didn't seem like there was much need to hide bam to begin with. If anything baam went out of his way to hide from fug. And so far in the story we have not seen evidence that the actual zahard empire is taking any sort of action against baam.

It's been stated that FUG wanted Zahard to think the irregular Baam was dead. It could be as simple as they didn't want Zahard to know they were training a weapon or perhaps Zahard would consider Baam a threat and try to take him out... but considering Ren was going to try and recruit him I'm not so sure about that.

--- Double Post Merged, May 29, 2017, Original Post Date: May 29, 2017 ---

Regardless of the motivation Headon, Yu Han Sung, and Hwaryun had been working together to hide Baam. If you look at the way Headon handled Rachel to the team that he put her on, not to mention all the conversations with Yu Han Sung and Hwaryun. Yu Han Sung kept saying to Lero Ro that he wanted to keep Baam from going up but that was a ruse.

To put it bluntly somehow FUG had known how to be involved from the moment Baam entered the tower. Its not like they suddenly said "oh it's an irregular, we had better hide him!" Rather they had just been waiting for the next irregular to appear with this plan in place. Either they had prior knowledge of Baam entering (no idea how) or they are the most patient b4st4rds I've ever seen.

 

[Jammin]

I don't buy into the idea that Rachel turning over Baam to FUG was hiding him or in any way for his own good. That scene is exactly what it appears to be IMO. She sold him out. Plain and simple

The Zahard Empire "may" take action again and irregular. But they are "definitely" going to take action again a FUG slayer. So I don't think he gained much of anything by what Rachel did. Handing him over to FUG didn't hide him it just painted a even massive target on his back and made him a prisoner. She used him to get what she wanted. Just like she used Baam's friends by capitalizing on their attachment to him.

All things considered. Rachel is still a very evil and selfish person.

 

[Demonspeed]

She's not that bad for me.

I don't hate Rachel anymore. Probably because we have seen so many people doing selfish things for their goals. The fact that she refuses to climb with Baam so strongly still puzzles me though.

 

[Ripcord]

She's not that bad for me.

I don't hate Rachel anymore. Probably because we have seen so many people doing selfish things for their goals. The fact that she refuses to climb with Baam so strongly still puzzles me though.

My guess is that she's afraid that he will keep her from her goal. If they climbed together I bet she's afraid she couldn't keep the truth from Baam and pretend she's the real "savior." That's how it works in her mind so she has to push him away and do all her business secretly.

Sadly she doesn't really know Baam. He'd say if you can earn it, it's yours fair and square.

 

[kkck]

She's not that bad for me.

I don't hate Rachel anymore. Probably because we have seen so many people doing selfish things for their goals. The fact that she refuses to climb with Baam so strongly still puzzles me though.

If you did hate her, I don't see any reason to stop it. Sure, other people have done pretty bad things overall but that does not give rachel a pass. And it does not excuse all the awful things she has done. Realistically speaking her issues with fate make her a much better character and there is some context regarding as to why stuff is so damn difficult for her but it doesn't change the fact that she is twisted and has done awful things no half decent human should even vaguely consider (betrayed baam, killed aguero's team mates, released white and so on).

As for why she doesn't want to climb with baam... I would argue that is because baam is the actual source of her problems. Rachel's actual goal is to take baam's destiny from him. It is why she hoped to leave him behind at the cave all those years ago. Only one of them can achieve arlene's dream and be the savior and as long as baam is there rachel probably won't have many chances of winning. With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if eventually rachel's goal becomes literally murdering baam so as to secure him not achieving his goal so that rachel can. If we consider rachel might get a thorn soon it might not even be that far off.

 

[Ripcord]

If you did hate her, I don't see any reason to stop it. Sure, other people have done pretty bad things overall but that does not give rachel a pass. And it does not excuse all the awful things she has done. Realistically speaking her issues with fate make her a much better character and there is some context regarding as to why stuff is so damn difficult for her but it doesn't change the fact that she is twisted and has done awful things no half decent human should even vaguely consider (betrayed baam, killed aguero's team mates, released white and so on).

As for why she doesn't want to climb with baam... I would argue that is because baam is the actual source of her problems. Rachel's actual goal is to take baam's destiny from him. It is why she hoped to leave him behind at the cave all those years ago. Only one of them can achieve arlene's dream and be the savior and as long as baam is there rachel probably won't have many chances of winning. With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if eventually rachel's goal becomes literally murdering baam so as to secure him not achieving his goal so that rachel can. If we consider rachel might get a thorn soon it might not even be that far off.

Perhaps. But as has been said in manga before, a skilled person with a knife can easily kill a novice with a sword. Perhaps Rachel has some abilities up her sleeve but so far we haven't seen anything worth much.