Discussion Official Rachel Discussion Thread

[kkck]

Perhaps. But as has been said in manga before, a skilled person with a knife can easily kill a novice with a sword. Perhaps Rachel has some abilities up her sleeve but so far we haven't seen anything worth much.

Errhh, I am not sure this has anything to do with what I wrote.

 

[Ripcord]

Just because Rachel gets a powerful weapon (thorn) doesn't mean she would have any skill to use it.

 

[kkck]

Just because Rachel gets a powerful weapon (thorn) doesn't mean she would have any skill to use it.

That also doesn't have much to do with the post you quoted before. My post was about rachel hate and why she doesn't want to climb with baam because it is his destiny that she wants.

 

[Ripcord]

Yes it is. Dude you arent even familiar with what you wrote....

My point is that Rachel wouldn't be able to kill Baam with the thorn (the end of your post). IMO she barely had the conviction to kill Akaraptor and I don't think she has the skills to use it against him properly.

The thorn isn't some magical item that would make anyone, for example Parqueel, the God of the Tower. Perhaps Rachel is hiding some abilities as an irregular but she hasn't given any indication she's even close to Baam's fighting strength.

--- Double Post Merged, May 30, 2017, Original Post Date: May 30, 2017 ---

I also want to add that in my life I've judged people as many judge Rachel. Meaning that it doesn't matter what's underneath. And there is some truth to that as she's done some horrible things.

Still, I feel that SIU is writing her as a gray character, particularly with the recent developments. I think the path she's on does speak to her character (she would have accepted the help of The Power like Zahard did and unlike Baam). However, I think it also speaks to her youth. Rachel thinks she's in control of her destiny but along the way I see many who have been influencing her and she hasn't had the strength to say "no."

Many times people who have no confidence of their own get colored by those around them and once you start making bad choices it's often easier to just make another bad choice rather than admit you're wrong and change to do the right thing.

Last point, I don't think Rachel ever wants to actually kill Baam. Whatever the connection is between them and with Arlen she doesn't want to completely violate that. She does want to be the savior instead of him for whatever reason. Perhaps I'm reading too much into their interaction around Gran De Jah.

 

[kkck]

Yes it is. Dude you arent even familiar with what you wrote....

My point is that Rachel wouldn't be able to kill Baam with the thorn (the end of your post). IMO she barely had the conviction to kill Akaraptor and I don't think she has the skills to use it against him properly.

The thorn isn't some magical item that would make anyone, for example Parqueel, the God of the Tower. Perhaps Rachel is hiding some abilities as an irregular but she hasn't given any indication she's even close to Baam's fighting strength.

--- Double Post Merged, May 30, 2017, Original Post Date: May 30, 2017 ---

I also want to add that in my life I've judged people as many judge Rachel. Meaning that it doesn't matter what's underneath. And there is some truth to that as she's done some horrible things.

Still, I feel that SIU is writing her as a gray character, particularly with the recent developments. I think the path she's on does speak to her character (she would have accepted the help of The Power like Zahard did and unlike Baam). However, I think it also speaks to her youth. Rachel thinks she's in control of her destiny but along the way I see many who have been influencing her and she hasn't had the strength to say "no."

Many times people who have no confidence of their own get colored by those around them.

Last point, I don't think Rachel ever wants to actually kill Baam. Whatever the connection is between them and with Arlen she doesn't want to completely violate that. She does want to be the savior instead of him for whatever reason. Perhaps I'm reading too much into their interaction around Gran De Jah.

Ok, i get what you mean now. In my post i didn't actually mean to talk about baams overall power. That would be but a factor here. I mention that Rachel would lose to baam but i didn't mean only in terms of shinsoo because the situation actually goes further than that. It's not merely that baam has all his talent, the issue is that there is a very realistic chance that actual fate, and perhaps a god that lives up to the title, are playing favorites with baam. It's not merely rachel loosing in a contest of skill, this is a far more unfair situation which she happens to be familiar with.

As for Rachel killing.... Well, it is clear she doesn't want to do it herself but even if she hesitated with akaraptor she is still did kill him in cold blood. And perhaps more importantly there is the reason for which she killed him. He was killed because rachel didn't need two hostages. Basically because he was otherwise an annoyance who posed minimal threat. If rachel wants baams destiny for herself then i would think she has already shown enough to suggest she would be willing to kill baam. He is not an annoyance like akaraptor was, he is her single biggest threat by far. Not to mention that she in theory she already tried to kill him via an abyss.

 

[Jammin]

I think it's probably fair to look at see Rachel in a variety of ways.

If your willing to believe the best about her. You could say that she see's the big picture and is determined to create a better outcome whatever the cost. Because we don't actually know why she is so hell bent on taking Baam's place. It's possible she has a "good" reason for all the bad she's done.

If you willing to believe the worst about her. You could say that she's a twisted narcissist who believes that the world revolves around her; and who is willing to do just about any horrible thing in order to get what she wants.

Both of those are plausible interpretations of her, as is pretty much anything in between, give what what know about her right now. She's a done a lot of really bad stuff. I don't think anybody can dispute that part. But the vague nature as to "why" she did them makes her a bit of a puzzle and one where the nuance that we don't know is going to make a world of difference.

 

[kkck]

I think it's probably fair to look at see Rachel in a variety of ways.

If your willing to believe the best about her. You could say that she see's the big picture and is determined to create a better outcome whatever the cost. Because we don't actually know why she is so hell bent on taking Baam's place. It's possible she has a "good" reason for all the bad she's done.

If you willing to believe the worst about her. You could say that she's a twisted narcissist who believes that the world revolves around her; and who is willing to do just about any horrible thing in order to get what she wants.

Both of those are plausible interpretations of her, as is pretty much anything in between, give what what know about her right now. She's a done a lot of really bad stuff. I don't think anybody can dispute that part. But the vague nature as to "why" she did them makes her a bit of a puzzle and one where the nuance that we don't know is going to make a world of difference.

I agree in that it is fair to look at rachel in a number of ways but i disagree with how you view her here.

Rachel isn't looking at the big picture here. She isn't doing what she is doing out of some sense of moral obligation. She is doing it because she wants to be the savior and whatnot. It is her own dream she is following through, nothing else. At the very least her thoughts we have seen do not evidence some sort of moral high ground.

Now, she is a narcissist but from what i can tell she is well aware that the world does not revolve around her. She actually knows the world revolves around baam and it is that precisely that she is desperately fighting. Since she seems to want baams fate odds are she wants the world to orbit around her.

 

[Jammin]

I agree in that it is fair to look at rachel in a number of ways but i disagree with how you view her here.

Rachel isn't looking at the big picture here. She isn't doing what she is doing out of some sense of moral obligation. She is doing it because she wants to be the savior and whatnot. It is her own dream she is following through, nothing else. At the very least her thoughts we have seen do not evidence some sort of moral high ground.

Now, she is a narcissist but from what i can tell she is well aware that the world does not revolve around her. She actually knows the world revolves around baam and it is that precisely that she is desperately fighting. Since she seems to want baams fate odds are she wants the world to orbit around her.

Well why I say it can be viewed either way is that, even with her wanting to be the Savior and all, we don't know why she wants that. There could be a non-selfish reason for her to want that.

She seems to know the story with Baam and Arlene as well anybody. So isn't it possible that she could think that if she takes on that role she may be able to prevent something bad that will happen if Baam is in that role. It could even be that something bad will happen to Baam if he follows through on it.

I don't necessarily think that's true, but it is plausible.

 

[Ripcord]

Well we do know she's aware of the "prophecy" whatever that is and yeah it seems pretty selfish for Rachel to try and inject herself in Baam's place.

Some things I always wondered about the cave, why could Rachel visit Baam? Did she cut his hair and give him clothes as a "parting gift" or something? I'm inclined to think she knew who Baam was when she climbed down there and wanted to see for herself.

If you look at it from that perspective then she may have told herself the lie that she's doing this for Arlen but it is really for herself. Still it's not hard to imagine if she served her whole life to a cause and was pushed aside that she'd feel this way. Doesn't mean her actions are justified, but I don't think she's evil either, she just has a weak character (can't resist temptation).

--- Double Post Merged, May 30, 2017, Original Post Date: May 30, 2017 ---

Well why I say it can be viewed either way is that, even with her wanting to be the Savior and all, we don't know why she wants that. There could be a non-selfish reason for her to want that.

She seems to know the story with Baam and Arlene as well anybody. So isn't it possible that she could think that if she takes on that role she may be able to prevent something bad that will happen if Baam is in that role. It could even be that something bad will happen to Baam if he follows through on it.

I don't necessarily think that's true, but it is plausible.

Ah that's true I didn't think about that.

 

[kkck]

Well we do know she's aware of the "prophecy" whatever that is and yeah it seems pretty selfish for Rachel to try and inject herself in Baam's place.

Some things I always wondered about the cave, why could Rachel visit Baam? Did she cut his hair and give him clothes as a "parting gift" or something? I'm inclined to think she knew who Baam was when she climbed down there and wanted to see for herself.

If you look at it from that perspective then she may have told herself the lie that she's doing this for Arlen but it is really for herself. Still it's not hard to imagine if she served her whole life to a cause and was pushed aside that she'd feel this way. Doesn't mean her actions are justified, but I don't think she's evil either, she just has a weak character (can't resist temptation).

--- Double Post Merged, May 30, 2017, Original Post Date: May 30, 2017 ---

Ah that's true I didn't think about that.

Part of the issue here, I would argue, is that we don't particularly have much context regarding who to side with in regards to the prophecy. We see fate at work but we have no idea of who actually is behind this fate, his or her goals and we ultimately don't know whether this is a benevolent or malevolent force. In many manga we see prophecies at work but for the most part we side with the prophecy. But in TOG it is a tad different because the context is not entirely favorable to such a scenario. Just the fact that a human like phantaminum could somehow ascend to godhood to write a story is disturbing enough as it is. Then you also have spells which work under the authority of a higher being for reasons, administrators which rule as gods over the shinsoo which is the actual literal lifeline in the tower... Basically, gods in this series are not necessarily intrinsically benevolent beings looking out for human well being. Rather they could be regular beings with an actual shitton of power who rule over others simply because they happen to have said power.

As for the cave, I still believe that it is baam's tomb. Arlene got out of the tower and made the tomb for him. Baam woke up and rachel either placed him there again or simply never bothered to take him out. The cave being a tomb would also explain the drawings and the zahard symbol there. Arlene would have placed them there. And outside the tomb would have been where rachel and other people lived. Presumably where arlene spent her last days until she died of old age since the contract with the administrator wouldn't be valid outside the tower.

 

[Demonspeed]

If you did hate her, I don't see any reason to stop it. Sure, other people have done pretty bad things overall but that does not give rachel a pass. And it does not excuse all the awful things she has done. Realistically speaking her issues with fate make her a much better character and there is some context regarding as to why stuff is so damn difficult for her but it doesn't change the fact that she is twisted and has done awful things no half decent human should even vaguely consider (betrayed baam, killed aguero's team mates, released white and so on).

As for why she doesn't want to climb with baam... I would argue that is because baam is the actual source of her problems. Rachel's actual goal is to take baam's destiny from him. It is why she hoped to leave him behind at the cave all those years ago. Only one of them can achieve arlene's dream and be the savior and as long as baam is there rachel probably won't have many chances of winning. With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if eventually rachel's goal becomes literally murdering baam so as to secure him not achieving his goal so that rachel can. If we consider rachel might get a thorn soon it might not even be that far off.

Haha, it's not as if I thought "Oh, there are plenty fo selfish people so I should not hate Rachel". My hate for her just stopped naturally .

It doesn't mean that I am indfferent to what she did though.

 

[Ripcord]

Part of the issue here, I would argue, is that we don't particularly have much context regarding who to side with in regards to the prophecy. We see fate at work but we have no idea of who actually is behind this fate, his or her goals and we ultimately don't know whether this is a benevolent or malevolent force. In many manga we see prophecies at work but for the most part we side with the prophecy. But in TOG it is a tad different because the context is not entirely favorable to such a scenario. Just the fact that a human like phantaminum could somehow ascend to godhood to write a story is disturbing enough as it is. Then you also have spells which work under the authority of a higher being for reasons, administrators which rule as gods over the shinsoo which is the actual literal lifeline in the tower... Basically, gods in this series are not necessarily intrinsically benevolent beings looking out for human well being. Rather they could be regular beings with an actual shitton of power who rule over others simply because they happen to have said power.

As for the cave, I still believe that it is baam's tomb. Arlene got out of the tower and made the tomb for him. Baam woke up and rachel either placed him there again or simply never bothered to take him out. The cave being a tomb would also explain the drawings and the zahard symbol there. Arlene would have placed them there. And outside the tomb would have been where rachel and other people lived. Presumably where arlene spent her last days until she died of old age since the contract with the administrator wouldn't be valid outside the tower.

You're right we have no idea about the prophesy... it could be similar to the Rinnegan and Juubi prophesy in Naruto that had things set up along the way to force a certain outcome (Madara was not the protagonist but he still followed a prophesy of sorts). It felt prophetic but it actually just had careful planning and someone nudging behind the scenes (Zetsu).

Still, my place in this story is not with the prophesy on its own. Rather I'm with it because that is where Baam is, because he chooses to be with his friends and climb with them rather than over them. I thought perhaps Baam and Rachel would be converging here now that they have had time to interact closely but now I wonder if they will actually diverge more and realize their goals are not the same.

 

[kkck]

You're right we have no idea about the prophesy... it could be similar to the Rinnegan and Juubi prophesy in Naruto that had things set up along the way to force a certain outcome (Madara was not the protagonist but he still followed a prophesy of sorts). It felt prophetic but it actually just had careful planning and someone nudging behind the scenes (Zetsu).

Still, my place in this story is not with the prophesy on its own. Rather I'm with it because that is where Baam is, because he chooses to be with his friends and climb with them rather than over them. I thought perhaps Baam and Rachel would be converging here now that they have had time to interact closely but now I wonder if they will actually diverge more and realize their goals are not the same.

Well, naruto was an actual child of prophecy. Him being a part of a prophecy was not ultimately related to the stuff the antagonist did. It's not like antagonist action somehow caused the naruto prophecy.

I guess that is a fair way to look at it. Right now you have baam aligning with the prophecy so it makes sense to support it. However I am still somewhat skeptical of the whole thing. Right now baam has his goals aligned with the prophecy however eventually I could see him give destiny a huge middle finger and simply do what he wants to do, specifically contrary to the prophecy.

 

[Ripcord]

I'm not talking about the Toad Sage prophecy. I'm taking about the dogma that Madara and Obito were following. They believed they could make dreams come true if they revived the Juubi, so much that they killed people and destroyed countries, and in the end the prophecy was just a ruse to get Kaguya revived. Just because there is a prophecy doesn't mean it will have a good end. Personally I believe in having good means because the ends aren't always so clear IMO, so I tend to align with those characters more.

And yeah, I think that Baam will strike his own path, because that's what he's already been doing.

 

[THM Nindo]

No. SIU has even gone out of his way to explain that bam and rachel are irregulars. However it is true that the definition of irregular is toyed with a bit since in some cases they are people "selected by the tower" and in others they are people who opened the door themselves. In all cases though, regulars are people chosen by headon which clearly does not apply for rachel or bam. I did suggest some time ago that the circumstances under which bam is an irregular and under which rachel is an irregular could be different given how headon treated them. So baam would be someone chosen by the tower who opened the door himself (by all means, a common irregular) and rachel would be someone who managed to kinda sneaked in via the door opened for baam (we saw her disappear into a golden door, my suggestion here would be that that was baam's door rather than rachel's). So rachel would be an irregular that wasn't chosen by the tower to enter.

Yeah, this is what makes Rachel so interesting to me!

She's neither a regular (chosen by Headon), or a typical irregular (chosen by the tower or able to open the doors by himself).
She's a stowaway that entered when Baam opened the door.

So, she's kind of unique in that way.

 

[Charlie]

Yeah, this is what makes Rachel so interesting to me!

She's neither a regular (chosen by Headon), or a typical irregular (chosen by the tower or able to open the doors by himself).
She's a stowaway that entered when Baam opened the door.

So, she's kind of unique in that way.

True - when you look at the story that way.
Also the fact of her wanting to change fate or destiny so hard and become the heroine.

 

[Connorm2]

Saying that Rachel is powerless is too close to call. Every comic series has that one person who gets some weird overpowered power up and causes grief for the main character and so far Rachel is just being a thorn in his side. I feel she uses others because using her true powers would reveal her identity. She is for sure some spawn of evil. Thats no doubt.

I mean for a character thats been there since chapter one....seems sorr of weird for her to be weak right? Since when did that never happen....of course she has that protective item following her which will cause a whole lot of touble soon for sure. I know she uses others to do the hard work for her but still... I really doubt shes just...weak. Didnt it say somewhere that Bam was chosen for the tower and she wasn’t? Wouldnt that make her an irregular too? Bam’s power isn’t obviously overpowered until later. Because A. Anyone could of gotten the thorn and B. He only later learned he can copy skills by having them used on him. And honestly, is he that strong? I know he improved since then but his copy sort of sucked...almost died multiple times. Maybe stronger than the average joe but not like insanely powerful.

 

[Ripcord]

IMHO that would be impossible. Of course, that is not set in stone, there is a lot I don't know about this but the implications here would be kinda staggering. Shinso control is granted through contracts. Even irregulars work by that logic though they are automatically given permission to use it. It's not like they force control, they simply have the permission by default. So the way I see it for arlene to have done this she would have had to come up with a spell outside the tower that would have prevented rachel from properly using shinso in spite of having the authority to use it from the moment she stepped in. The key part here is the permission irregulars by default have to use shinsoo. who grants them that permission? Either the tower itself or the administrators would be the reasonable options given what we know. So arlene, from outside the tower, would have had to come up with a spell which overrode the authority and power of the administrators and plausibly even the tower itself just to nag rachel. The lore doesn't make your suggestion impossible but arlene overriding the authority of the guardians and perhaps even the tower seems.... well

I don't think your take on irregulars is correct. I believe that it's more that anyone born in the tower is restricted and anyone who is not born in the tower (or reborn in the case of Baam) is free from the tower's contracts. It's not that the irregulars have a contract from the start. They work outside all contracts.

Regarding the limits or lack of talent... it's a tough one. A spell by Arlene would be a bit outside the ToG we know so far but I have this theory that Wangnan's ring suppresses his power.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 13, 2017, Original Post Date: Oct 13, 2017 ---

I kind of like this theory.

Maybe I'm imagining it but don't Rachel and Wangan look a little similar? And in that brief glimpse we had of the back of Zahard's head in Garam's tale it looked to me like he had blonde hair too. Her twisted personality would make a lot more sense if she was raised by a mother who hated her. I mean, Baam would have been the important one in Arlen's eyes. Rachel would have been a living reminder of Zahard.

That would explain a whole lot about her and what she's trying to do.

Her supplanting Baam in the role Arlen had imagined for him would just be her trying to prove herself to a mother that never recognized or loved her. To prove to herself that she's more than that.

Yeah, I like that a lot.

I couldn't have put it better.

It would also explain Hwa Ryun's interest in Rachel. Her and FUG have exploited Rachel's feelings on the matter and probably promised her what she wants (which she won't get of course). It would also explain why Gustang bothered to help her.

 

[kkck]

I don't think your take on irregulars is correct. I believe that it's more that anyone born in the tower is restricted and anyone who is not born in the tower (or reborn in the case of Baam) is free from the tower's contracts. It's not that the irregulars have a contract from the start. They work outside all contracts.

Regarding the limits or lack of talent... it's a tough one. A spell by Arlene would be a bit outside the ToG we know so far but I have this theory that Wangnan's ring suppresses his power.

It can't be that simple considering that the red thrysa was able to take away mazino's shinsoo control. If it worked as you suggest then mazino would have maintained his shinsoo control even in spite of a lowly and miserable vermin like the red thrysa.

Well, not that outside because have have seen plenty of spells at work. The spell at the FOD, the ones used by hoaquin, sachi's techniques and so on. Still, arlen using a spell outside the tower that block's rachel's control of it would be kinda weird.

 

[Ripcord]

It can't be that simple considering that the red thrysa was able to take away mazino's shinsoo control. If it worked as you suggest then mazino would have maintained his shinsoo control even in spite of a lowly and miserable vermin like the red thrysa.

Well, not that outside because have have seen plenty of spells at work. The spell at the FOD, the ones used by hoaquin, sachi's techniques and so on. Still, arlen using a spell outside the tower that block's rachel's control of it would be kinda weird.

Mazino's inability to use shinsoo had nothing to do with contracts, but it had everything to do with him lacking a skill to counter the Red Thryssa placing all the shinsoo in some kind of container. Mazino could have used the shinsoo if it was available. Once Baam could make a crack in the "container" then Mazino was able to make a bang, it's not like Baam restored Mazino's ability to control shinsoo at that moment.

Baam has the thorn which allows him to counter the Admin power, which is in addition to his being outside of contracts like Mazino.