Discussion Official Zeref Thread

[Kiki]

Isn't Hades the same person as Precht?...

I guess Hades must have told Ultear (who was possessed by Zeref) about the Fairy Heart. Or that suspicious guy from the last chapter of FT Zero told Zeref about Fairy Heart...

Yes, Hades is the same person as Precht. I think Ultear was not possessed by Zeref. All of her crimes were done by Ultear herself.

I guess Zeref knows about Fairy Heart from little strange creature that was always seen being on Obra's shoulder (one of Ivan's guard)

 

[Nemispelled]

Hades wouldn't leak any information out. I don't think Ivan learned it from Hades either. They have like no relations. Hades told Makarov and somehow Ivan found it out by Makarov.

I think this question is a tough. We know a lot about Fairy Tail, but we know nothing about Zeref. Zeref was on Tenrou when we first saw him. Coincidentally, so was Mavis. The only thing that I can think of was that Mavis told Zeref.

On Tenrou, Mavis looked at Zeref as a boyfriend. After all, they had a relationship before Mavis had supposedly died and had not seen each other since. Mavis probably told Zeref the secret and after Tenrou, Zeref turned against her. Mavis always seems to miscalculate and have people betray her, I guess she has bad luck???

 

[Holt]

Well Mavis cannot interact with Zeref. That was already confirmed. When they had their 'discussion' after the GMG, he couldn't actually see or hear her. He could only feel her presence somewhat and it wasn't like something he was feing through magic, it's like an instinct thing. Considering that, there's no way Mavis could have told him.

 

[Nemispelled]

Maybe he can't hear her physically through sound waves and such, but there is no way he heard Mavis' questions by pure guessing. He was spot on in rephrasing and answering Mavis' questions, almost hitting the exact same structures of the sentences that Mavis had used.

Only way he could do so is if he were a god like Ankhseram, which I highly doubt, so he couldnt have predicted everything Mavis said exactly. Out of a million chances of answering that question, Zeref was able to direct every single question back towards Mavis..

If I had to guess, he could somehow communicate with her through his senses or mentally. Either way, if it is not by speech, it is some form of communication. Whatever that communication is beats me, but Mavis likely has the capability to get her message to Zeref and Zeref has the capability to comprehend what Mavis wants him to know. If not, he could somehow sense Fairy Heart either through the magical energy that it gives off or his connection with Mavis.

 

[Holt]

No he actually can't do neither. He wasn't hearing her through any other means as he said so himself. It's just him knowing what Mavis would have said if she were indeed there hence why he could answer like that and even if he could, Mavis would not tell him about FH. Even though he answered as if he could hear her, he wouldn't actually know what she was saying. He was answering what he assumed she would say which she really happened to be saying but he couldn't hear her and then Mashima obviously twists it so it does sound like random stuff. Think of it like someone going to a grave and taking as though the person was there listening. You'd even hear people say that they can feel that the person is indeed there listening to them and taking. However, what they say is based on what they think would be a conversation if the other person is there (which is usually very accurate since such people are close). What we then have is giving us the chance to see said spirit (Mavis in this case) who actually happens to be having the conversation the same way the other person thought it would go.

 

[Nemispelled]

I agree that Mashima did this a twist and it was supposed to have more of a literary effect than anything else. It's just for the hype. But realistically, you can't deny what happened was sensed instead of going by a person's personal emotion. There was still no way Zeref could have predicted that. He'd have to be a god in order to do that.

Even if Zeref couldn't hear Mavis physically, he could hear Mavis figuratively or mentally. The fact is that he somehow got the information that Mavis was saying. How he does it has not been revealed yet, but characters like Zeref and Mavis have a sixth sense you could say.

My prediction isn't likely, but it certainly hasn't been deemed invalid yet either. At least, not yet.

If you refuse to believe what I say, by all means go ahead, I have no control on what you think and I'm not trying to impress anybody either. Nothing is certain, so as I said, if it isn't by some sort of way of hearing, it could be the magic energy that FH gives off that Zeref can sense or it could be Zeref's romantic affiliation with Mavis.

Knowing Mashima's style of writing, it is likely Zeref's romantic connection with Mavis that allows him to find out about FH.

 

[Kiki]

this is just my opinion. If Zeref had known FH from Mavis, he could have seized FH. He should not have waited for 1 year

 

[Nemispelled]

He didn't wait. Prior to the timeskip ( 10 years before Tartaros or 11 years from current events), Alvarez attempted a full-scale invasion of Ishgar. It was classified information by the magic council and the council countered the invasion with a threat to use a combined force of Etherion Blast and Face.

Alvarez knew they were beat and called it off, drawing a fine line between the two nations, in which neither side crossed. After Tartaros, Etherion and Face became out of operation.

Now, Alvarez is planning another invasion which is Makarov's reason for disbanding and going over to Alvarez for negotiations.

According to the timeline, Zeref knew about FH long before Alvarez's first full-scale invasion against Ishgar.

We're not talking about GMG or Tenrou arc here. The first invasion already was attempted 2-3 years before the beginning of the series when Lucy joined FT. It's not even on the timeline that we've seen so far. It slightly before what we've seen at the beginning of the series, but happened way after Fairy Tail Zero.

Again, the reason we never heard about it when the first season of Fairy Tail started was because the magic council at the time chose to keep the attempted invasion against Ishgar disclosed to the people of Ishgar...

I'm not arguing against anybody here. To be fair, everybody has an equal chance of being right. I give all credit to the original poster, Skywvrd, for thinking about this and asking this question. It is a good question that could be answered soon. If you closely analyze the timeline, it is in the unknown gap from FTZ and when we first saw FT.

 

[Kiki]

yeah, you are right. and then, suddenly a thought is coming to my head. a new question comes up like this: "How does Ivan know about the Fairy Heart?"

considering Precht Gaebolg never leaked the information out and Zeref himself knew it from Mavis directly. I hope there will be more explanation in manga

 

[Holt]

Re: How does Zeref know about the Fairy Heart?

He didn't wait. Prior to the timeskip ( 10 years before Tartaros or 11 years from current events), Alvarez attempted a full-scale invasion of Ishgar. It was classified information by the magic council and the council countered the invasion with a threat to use a combined force of Etherion Blast and Face.

Alvarez knew they were beat and called it off, drawing a fine line between the two nations, in which neither side crossed. After Tartaros, Etherion and Face became out of operation.

Now, Alvarez is planning another invasion which is Makarov's reason for disbanding and going over to Alvarez for negotiations.

According to the timeline, Zeref knew about FH long before Alvarez's first full-scale invasion against Ishgar.

We're not talking about GMG or Tenrou arc here. The first invasion already was attempted 2-3 years before the beginning of the series when Lucy joined FT. It's not even on the timeline that we've seen so far. It slightly before what we've seen at the beginning of the series, but happened way after Fairy Tail Zero.

Again, the reason we never heard about it when the first season of Fairy Tail started was because the magic council at the time chose to keep the attempted invasion against Ishgar disclosed to the people of Ishgar...

I'm not arguing against anybody here. To be fair, everybody has an equal chance of being right. I give all credit to the original poster, Skywvrd, for thinking about this and asking this question. It is a good question that could be answered soon. If you closely analyze the timeline, it is in the unknown gap from FTZ and when we first saw FT.

Actually, Alvarez didn't retreat because they were going to be defeated. Zeref stopped the attack because he hadn't sanctioned it in the first place. The spriggan had acted of their own volition at the time and Zeref felt it wasn't time to invade ishgar yet. He did admit that a
Face and Etherion would have dealt damage but that wasn't why the previous invasion was called off.

 

[Nemispelled]

Re: How does Zeref know about the Fairy Heart?

Actually, Alvarez didn't retreat because they were going to be defeated. Zeref stopped the attack because he hadn't sanctioned it in the first place. The spriggan had acted of their own volition at the time and Zeref felt it wasn't time to invade ishgar yet. He did admit that a
Face and Etherion would have dealt damage but that wasn't why the previous invasion was called off.

Actually it was both. The Spriggans started the invasion without Zeref's permission, which caused Zeref to stop it. However, Zeref admitted that Face and Etherion was also another reason that Alvarez couldn't go through with the invasion. Since Alvarez also relies on magic, the combination of Face and Etherion would destroy the entire military branch of that nation.

It was a mixture of both reasons. Zeref didn't think it was time to invade Ishgar because he knew the magnitude of the magic council's power. If Etherion and Face ceased to exist, Zeref wouldn't care if the Spriggans acted of their own accord. The Spriggans have no idea how strong Face and Etherion are, so Zeref ordered them to stand down.

Hence the reason why Zeref is invading Ishgar as we speak. Zeref already knows his Spriggans aren't fond of being kept in line, so Zeref doesn't care what they do. Just like in the recent chapter, some of the Spriggans didn't attend the meeting. Zeref didn't care nor was he angry because to him, the Spriggans are just his pawns.

No matter how Zeref spins it, it all leads back to the main reason, Zeref knew his nation couldn't beat Face and Etherion. It wasn't a coincidence that Zeref decided to invade when Face and Etherion are not in operation.

Long story short, Zeref stopped the attack because of Face and Etherion not because he never gave the order. So yeah, Face and Etherion was why it was called off.


Specifically to quote Zeref:

Zeref- "I stopped the invasion because it wasn't the right time"

Makarov- "Wasn't it because of Face and Etherion?"

Zeref- "Of course that was a reason too.."

 

[Holt]

Re: How does Zeref know about the Fairy Heart?

He didn't give the order because he felt it wasn't the right time hence why he stopped them. That's why I said he stopped them because it wasn't a sanctioned attack to begin with. He didn't stop it because of Face and Etherion. He only admitted that it was a factor too but not the deciding factor. You're making it sound as though Zeref stopped it because he feared face and Etherion which isn't true. He mentions first that it wasn't the right time and then when Makarov mentions Face and Etherion, he says that was a reason too indicating it comes after. It's why Makarov poses the question like that. He says wasn't it.. because he understands that Zeref is saying that it wasn't the fear or face and Etherion that made him stop the attack like those in Ishgar believe.

Zeref isn't spinning anything. He says things as he believes they are. If he was scared of face and Etherion to the extent that he felt he would lose, he would admit it. We've seen him admit shortcomings numerous times. Also, face and Etherion pale in the face of Acnologia and FH which Zeref is well aware are possible obstacles going forward.

 

[Nemispelled]

Re: How does Zeref know about the Fairy Heart?

In the chapter, the direct translation literally confirmed that Zeref feared Etherion and Face. Makarov asked him "Didn't you fear Face and Etherion?" And Zeref replied "Of course that was a reason too".

Whether that decided his decision or whether it was a combination of both is still in the air, but Zeref admitted that he was scared of or feared Face and Etherion.

You're getting it backwards. The Spriggans attacked because they did not fear Etherion or Face since they don't know it's magnitude of destruction. Zeref is the one that fears Etherion Blast and Face because he knows what it is.

When Zeref said "it isn't the right time", he is referring to that Etherion and Face are still in operation. Whether he called the shot is irrelevant because he wants FH really badly. He isn't like the Spriggans.

He pretty much admitted he was scared and feared Etherion. That was his shortcoming. But I guess this is where we differ.....

 

[SirSamuel016]

Re: How does Zeref know about the Fairy Heart?

Zeref stopped the invasion 10 years ago mainly because he felt it wasn't the right time to invade. Face and Etherion were things he also considered. 10 years ago, Zeref didn't want to invade back then, it was a few of the spriggans that wanted to.

 

[Holt]

Re: How does Zeref know about the Fairy Heart?

In the chapter, the direct translation literally confirmed that Zeref feared Etherion and Face. Makarov asked him "Didn't you fear Face and Etherion?" And Zeref replied "Of course that was a reason too".

Whether that decided his decision or whether it was a combination of both is still in the air, but Zeref admitted that he was scared of or feared Face and Etherion.

You're getting it backwards. The Spriggans attacked because they did not fear Etherion or Face since they don't know it's magnitude of destruction. Zeref is the one that fears Etherion Blast and Face because he knows what it is.

When Zeref said "it isn't the right time", he is referring to that Etherion and Face are still in operation. Whether he called the shot is irrelevant because he wants FH really badly. He isn't like the Spriggans.

He pretty much admitted he was scared and feared Etherion. That was his shortcoming. But I guess this is where we differ.....

You're not getting the sentences. 'Of course, that was a reason too'. That's something one says when a factor was considered but was not the deciding factor. Zeref felt it wasn't the right time to invade Ishgar. If he though so because he was afraid of Face/Etherion, then he wouldn't have said that those were factors too. It's an afterthought. The change in sentence of Makarov is irrelevant here. We can already deduce that much from either translation. If those were the main factors, he wouldn't have said too. He would have just said, yes that was the reason. You're simply assuming and thinking in too simplistic terms. Not being the right term could refer to a number of things. Do remember that Zeref has clearly been interested in recreating the dragon King festival. He specifically mentioned the battle between an immortal, Dragon and Humans. If we're talking reason, I'm pretty sure Zeref would have been more worried about Acnologia than Ishgar. Be it ensuring that Acnologia participates or that they're strong enough to defeat Acnologia. It could simply be that he wasn't confident that Alvarez could beat both Acnologia and Ishgar at once (which was very likely the reason) so just saying Zeref stopped the attack because of face/Etherion when the manga clearly disputes the fact based on the conversation between Makarov and Zeref isn't accurate.

 

[Nemispelled]

Re: How does Zeref know about the Fairy Heart?

You're not getting the sentences. 'Of course, that was a reason too'. That's something one says when a factor was considered but was not the deciding factor. Zeref felt it wasn't the right time to invade Ishgar. If he though so because he was afraid of Face/Etherion, then he wouldn't have said that those were factors too. It's an afterthought. The change in sentence of Makarov is irrelevant here. We can already deduce that much from either translation. If those were the main factors, he wouldn't have said too. He would have just said, yes that was the reason. You're simply assuming and thinking in too simplistic terms. Not being the right term could refer to a number of things. Do remember that Zeref has clearly been interested in recreating the dragon King festival. He specifically mentioned the battle between an immortal, Dragon and Humans. If we're talking reason, I'm pretty sure Zeref would have been more worried about Acnologia than Ishgar. Be it ensuring that Acnologia participates or that they're strong enough to defeat Acnologia. It could simply be that he wasn't confident that Alvarez could beat both Acnologia and Ishgar at once (which was very likely the reason) so just saying Zeref stopped the attack because of face/Etherion when the manga clearly disputes the fact based on the conversation between Makarov and Zeref isn't accurate.

If you read my post at the very beginning I said:

It's a mixture of both.

You still haven't come to terms yet, so if anything, I'm not the slow one here, you are.

In your other post, you said Zeref doesn't fear Etherion and Face. That was where, I proved you wrong, because Zeref did fear those two weapons.

Although I said it was a mixture of both, I'm saying a mixture of: Zeref fearing Etherion-Face as well as another reason, not yours though.

When Zeref said it wasn't the right time, logically, he shouldn't wait until now to attack. If he couldn't beat Acnologia and Ishgar back then, what makes him think he can beat them now?

Has anything changed? No.

Actually if anything, it is even a worse time now to attack, Zeref has the odds against him even greater this time. Not only is Ishgar strong and trained now ( FT trained, TWS jumping in), but Acnologia is blood-thirsty as hell.

To prove that Zeref did not call it off because of Ishgar and Acnologia combined-

Zeref declared war against Acnologia

Zeref then declared war on Ishgar.

Zeref invaded Ishgar.

Where's the logic there? Back then Zeref had a better chance by just invading Ishgar. Back then, only the magic council knew.

Now, he declared war on Acnologia and at the same time openly declared war on Ishgar. FT and TWS are now preparing for their attack. He just multiplied his problems by 3 and this is all of Zeref's own doing.

What a hypocrite of a commander back then to call the battle off because it wasn't the right time and then doing the exact same thing but initiating an even greater battle expecting your troops to fight it.....

 

[SirSamuel016]

Re: How does Zeref know about the Fairy Heart?

If you read my post at the very beginning I said:

It's a mixture of both.

You still haven't come to terms yet, so if anything, I'm not the slow one here, you are.

In your other post, you said Zeref doesn't fear Etherion and Face. That was where, I proved you wrong, because Zeref did fear those two weapons.

Although I said it was a mixture of both, I'm saying a mixture of: Zeref fearing Etherion-Face as well as another reason, not yours though.

When Zeref said it wasn't the right time, logically, he shouldn't wait until now to attack. If he couldn't beat Acnologia and Ishgar back then, what makes him think he can beat them now?

Has anything changed? No.

Actually if anything, it is even a worse time now to attack, Zeref has the odds against him even greater this time. Not only is Ishgar strong and trained now ( FT trained, TWS jumping in), but Acnologia is blood-thirsty as hell.

To prove that Zeref did not call it off because of Ishgar and Acnologia combined-

Zeref declared war against Acnologia

Zeref then declared war on Ishgar.

Zeref invaded Ishgar.

Where's the logic there? Back then Zeref had a better chance by just invading Ishgar. Back then, only the magic council knew.

Now, he declared war on Acnologia and at the same time openly declared war on Ishgar. FT and TWS are now preparing for their attack. He just multiplied his problems by 3 and this is all of Zeref's own doing.

What a hypocrite of a commander back then to call the battle off because it wasn't the right time and then doing the exact same thing but initiating an even greater battle expecting your troops to fight it.....

Are you considering why Zeref is doing all of this?
Its not so much that he can eradicate the human race but rather have Natsu kill him. Zeref needed to wait for the right time to attack to complete his goal. The only one capable of killing him is Natsu as E.N.D, and Natsu 10 years ago was very immature, certainly not ready to complete Zeref's wish to die by his brother's hands.
Face and Etherion were only minor things to the Alvarez empire, but the real reason Zeref didn't advance was to let Natsu grow stronger and to have him learn the importance of friendship and bonds so that when Alvarez did attack, he'd then go berserk as his friends were killed around him and have no choice but to accept his etherious powers to kill Zeref. Thats what all of this has been building up to.

 

[kkck]

Originally I thought zeref might have just deduced fairy heart existing as a natural consequence of mavis' condition as a half dead cursed body. On the other hand there is real evidence that purehito did manage to have a hand in creating fairy heart.

Remember the grimmoire heart arc? Hades had the "grimmoire heart". We never saw it but it was the source of hades' longevity as well as an infinite source of magic for him. When it was destroyed, he lost both of those things. Anyways, in context right now it is pretty clear that the grimoir heart was replicating mavis herself. In a way he made a more functional ankseram curse so to speak.

As for how zeref found out... Who knows.. Maybe he ran into mavis' spirit form or was even told about it by hades. It's not impossible predtch ran into zeref again before he came up with his twisted objectives.

 

[Holt]

Re: How does Zeref know about the Fairy Heart?

If you read my post at the very beginning I said:

It's a mixture of both.

You still haven't come to terms yet, so if anything, I'm not the slow one here, you are.

In your other post, you said Zeref doesn't fear Etherion and Face. That was where, I proved you wrong, because Zeref did fear those two weapons.

Although I said it was a mixture of both, I'm saying a mixture of: Zeref fearing Etherion-Face as well as another reason, not yours though.

When Zeref said it wasn't the right time, logically, he shouldn't wait until now to attack. If he couldn't beat Acnologia and Ishgar back then, what makes him think he can beat them now?

Has anything changed? No.

Actually if anything, it is even a worse time now to attack, Zeref has the odds against him even greater this time. Not only is Ishgar strong and trained now ( FT trained, TWS jumping in), but Acnologia is blood-thirsty as hell.

To prove that Zeref did not call it off because of Ishgar and Acnologia combined-

Zeref declared war against Acnologia

Zeref then declared war on Ishgar.

Zeref invaded Ishgar.

Where's the logic there? Back then Zeref had a better chance by just invading Ishgar. Back then, only the magic council knew.

Now, he declared war on Acnologia and at the same time openly declared war on Ishgar. FT and TWS are now preparing for their attack. He just multiplied his problems by 3 and this is all of Zeref's own doing.

What a hypocrite of a commander back then to call the battle off because it wasn't the right time and then doing the exact same thing but initiating an even greater battle expecting your troops to fight it.....

I didn't say Zeref didn't fear face/etherion. I said it was fear of those that made him call off the war

You're not getting it. Zeref is the one in charge here. The spriggans aren't his troops, they're his pawns, and they even acknowledge that. Zeref's thoughts are a contradiction and his actions as well. There's no logic there. Go back and read his discussion with Mavis in the flashback to understand him better.
Zeref wants to eradicate humanity but at the same time he wants to die. He wants to kill Natsu but then he wants to spend time with him. Just invading Ishgar isn't enough. Zeref wants to recreate the dragon king festival. It's meaningless if acnologia isn't involved. He wants to win and kill them both but at the same time, he wants Natsu to kill him. Remember he was crying because on tenrou, he saw that Natsu wasn't strong enough to kill him. The timing is Zeref's to call. This is a game to him after all and yet it's also very important to him. That's the whole thing behind everything Zeref. There are two opposites to practically everything he does.

If Zeref feared face and etherion enough to call off a battle, then he wouldn't wage war against acnologia and FH fully expecting to win.

 

[Holt]

Moderator Notice:
Moved a few posts to the Zeref thread as they were off-topic. Further discussion may continue there~ Holt