Discussion Official Zeref Thread

Nemispelled · Sep 19, 2015

Re: How does Zeref know about the Fairy Heart?

Holt said:
I didn't say Zeref didn't fear face/etherion. I said it was fear of those that made him call off the war

You're not getting it. Zeref is the one in charge here. The spriggans aren't his troops, they're his pawns, and they even acknowledge that. Zeref's thoughts are a contradiction and his actions as well. There's no logic there. Go back and read his discussion with Mavis in the flashback to understand him better.
Zeref wants to eradicate humanity but at the same time he wants to die. He wants to kill Natsu but then he wants to spend time with him. Just invading Ishgar isn't enough. Zeref wants to recreate the dragon king festival. It's meaningless if acnologia isn't involved. He wants to win and kill them both but at the same time, he wants Natsu to kill him. Remember he was crying because on tenrou, he saw that Natsu wasn't strong enough to kill him. The timing is Zeref's to call. This is a game to him after all and yet it's also very important to him. That's the whole thing behind everything Zeref. There are two opposites to practically everything he does.

If Zeref feared face and etherion enough to call off a battle, then he wouldn't wage war against acnologia and FH fully expecting to win.

Your first two sentences basically contradicted yourself. That's my original point in the other thread. Zeref's fear of Face and Etherion is what made him call off the war. Idk why we are even arguing about this if we agree. Unless you did not mean what you said..

Omg, you want to get technical? Fine, pawns not troops. They literally mean the same thing and I said it in an earlier post, you should be able to understand me. In chess, your pawns are your troops, but I'm not even gonna argue about that.

So his thoughts and actions are always contradicting? If Mashima wanted you to know that, he would show you that. How do you know what is contradicting and what is not?

Is Zeref wanting to obtain FH a contradiction? Does he actually not really want FH? How about his declaration of war against Acnologia and Ishgar? Has he actually fallen in love with Acnologia and Ishgar?

I only go by his words and what he tells us.

Ok seriously, your last statement was basically exactly what I've been trying to say the entire time.

Your statement " If Zeref feared face and etherion enough to call off a battle, then he wouldnt wage war against Acnologia and FH (FT?) fully expecting to win"

The fact was that he didn't. Not when Face and Etherion was in operation.

Now that Face and Etherion are history, Zeref invades Ishgar. My whole point the entire time. We've basically just gone full circle.

Back then, without Face and Etherion, Zeref would have a better chance to obtain Fairy Heart

Holt · Sep 19, 2015

Typographical error, I meant to say that it wasn't the fear of those that made him call of the war.

As for the rest, there's really no point continuing this. Matter of opinion and interpretation so let's leave it at that.

AlphaIkaros · Sep 20, 2015

Wait, what was the reason again why Makarov disbanded FT and went to Alvarez?... (Did I miss something?)
I highly doubt Mavis would ever leaked such classified thing to Zeref now that she sees her as an enemy. I think it was that first time Alvarez tried to conquer Ishgar when Zeref discovered FH. He's the greatest wizard afterall, but maybe during one of his research that to fully seize Ishgar, he would've need tremendous amount of magical power, and that's when he found out about Mavis' power and FH

Nemispelled · Sep 20, 2015

AlphaIkaros said:
Wait, what was the reason again why Makarov disbanded FT and went to Alvarez?... (Did I miss something?)
I highly doubt Mavis would ever leaked such classified thing to Zeref now that she sees her as an enemy. I think it was that first time Alvarez tried to conquer Ishgar when Zeref discovered FH. He's the greatest wizard afterall, but maybe during one of his research that to fully seize Ishgar, he would've need tremendous amount of magical power, and that's when he found out about Mavis' power and FH

Makarov disbanded FT and went to Alvarez to negotiate with Emperor Spriggan aka Zeref to keep the tension between Alvarez and Ishgar from escalating. While FT and majority of Ishgar were unaware of the sudden development, Alvarez was planning to start a second invasion, hence why the tension along the borders started escalating.

E.g. Brandish and her forces taking over Caracol Island.

That was why Makarov went to Alvarez.

Makarov disbanded FT because he felt that if his negotiations in Alvarez failed and Makarov died there, FT would be next on Alvarez's list to go after since FT has FH

Makarov disbanded in the hopes that his children would go elsewhere and not be in the sights of Alvarez, although if Alvarez used the same tactic as Tartaros had on the former magic council, then the member would have been screwed anyways.

Either way, nobody knows for sure how Zeref got news of FH. It could be through Hades, Ivan, Makarov, or Mavis.

I doubt the first 3 though because:

Ivan has no relations with Zeref and has an arrogant attitude. Think about it, Ivan wants Fairy Heart. Telling Zeref would be handing it over to him. It would greatly lower Ivan's chance to get his hands on it if Zeref found out because, let's be honest, Zeref is way superior.

Hades wouldn't slip it out and he was trying to find Zeref on Tenrou meaning that he had no communications prior.

Makarov negotiated with Alvarez and tried to keep Zeref from taking FH. Also, Makarov has always kept FH private. He even told Gildartz that when he showed him.

The last one is Mavis:

They had a romantic bond before Mavis died. But maybe Zeref found out on his own at some point in time.....

EmperorSpriggan · Dec 12, 2015

Zeref isn't the bad guy in this story tbh

The bad guy in this story is humanity itself, lets go back to when the people refused to heal natsu from the illness he died from (which is the reason that zeref was pushed into trying to find a way to bring him back cuz he couldnt stand losing his brother and got himself cursed).

I feel bad for him he just wanted his brother back which that couldve been saved if the people acually helped him(if you go back in the manga you will understand if u check the pages were zeref tells the story).

Sure he has killed alot of people, but this is not cuz he wanted is cuz of the curse he is understand and i know its not an excuse to kill people, but you have to understand also that he cant love anyone cuz they will die if he do.

Thats all im gonna say, he is not the bad guy... humanity is (selfish greedy and ugly both inside and out).

Makes me sick even in our world there is people like this...

MangerDan · Dec 12, 2015

Re: Zeref isn't the bad guy in this story tbh

Sure he might have not been a bad guy at first but he certainly made himself one. Humanity doesn't have anything to do with what happened to zeref that's all on him. Even if the people in the academy helped him he would have still been cursed for messing with the balance of life and death.

XXEliteXXAceXX · Dec 12, 2015

Re: Zeref isn't the bad guy in this story tbh

EmperorSpriggan said:
The bad guy in this story is humanity itself, lets go back to when the people refused to heal natsu from the illness he died from (which is the reason that zeref was pushed into trying to find a way to bring him back cuz he couldnt stand losing his brother and got himself cursed).

I feel bad for him he just wanted his brother back which that couldve been saved if the people acually helped him(if you go back in the manga you will understand if u check the pages were zeref tells the story).

Sure he has killed alot of people, but this is not cuz he wanted is cuz of the curse he is understand and i know its not an excuse to kill people, but you have to understand also that he cant love anyone cuz they will die if he do.

Thats all im gonna say, he is not the bad guy... humanity is (selfish greedy and ugly both inside and out).

Makes me sick even in our world there is people like this...

Okay well, first of all, I can understand what you're saying and I agree. Thank you for bringing this point up again. I understand that it is very controversial but I think if you really analyze it, the truth should be fairly simple. However, I see this as a real life concept. I am in full support that humanity is evil itself. Seeing how mean and screwed up humans are makes me disgusted. Anyways, I don't want to derail your thread so I'll move on to my point.

We had this discussion in a prediction/discussion thread and I'd say the sides were split in half. Like I said earlier, I am glad you brought this point up in a separate thread because I think people will really understand my point of view after reading this entire discussion. I took the position that Zeref was evil but if you read my post, you'll know why. Basically, I agree with you that Zeref's curse prevented him from loving anyone which in fact made me have sympathy for him. Sadly, that was a long time ago. Currently in the manga, Zeref himself made it clear that he wants total destruction and annihilation. If that is not evil, then I guess you could say I don't know what evilness is anymore.

Vasgoko · Dec 12, 2015

Re: Zeref isn't the bad guy in this story tbh

EmperorSpriggan said:
The bad guy in this story is humanity itself, lets go back to when the people refused to heal natsu from the illness he died from (which is the reason that zeref was pushed into trying to find a way to bring him back cuz he couldnt stand losing his brother and got himself cursed).

I feel bad for him he just wanted his brother back which that couldve been saved if the people acually helped him(if you go back in the manga you will understand if u check the pages were zeref tells the story).

Sure he has killed alot of people, but this is not cuz he wanted is cuz of the curse he is understand and i know its not an excuse to kill people, but you have to understand also that he cant love anyone cuz they will die if he do.

Thats all im gonna say, he is not the bad guy... humanity is (selfish greedy and ugly both inside and out).

Makes me sick even in our world there is people like this...

Wait did I miss something? I don't remember the part where humans refused to heal Natsu from his illness.

Yeah, Natsu died, but you can't save everybody from their illnesses. That's asking the impossible. Zeref's fault wasn't when he was devastated that Natsu died.

His fault lies in him trying to resurrect the dead even after his professors told him God Ankhseram would punish him for attempting to do so. His second fault lies when he created the Etherious demons to kill himself.

Every single demon from his books wrecked havoc across Earthland killing humans of unprecedented heights. It was all cuz of his selfishness of wanting to die. He had a choice to isolate himself and bear the consequences that was laid before him for his actions.

He had his opportunity to take Mavis route after they met each other. There is no reason why Zeref couldn't do the exact same thing as Mavis when they were at their last moments.

Not to mention, TWICE, he has spoken about a one sided annhilation. One to Acnologia and a reference again to Natsu. I have no sympathy.

Humans may be cruel but speaking of the two greater evil, Zeref definitely far surpasses that criteria. The amount of life that one man has taken cannot beat Zeref himself. If the population consisted of 1000 Zeref's, you may not even have a place to call civilization....

metsujin · Dec 12, 2015

Re: Zeref isn't the bad guy in this story tbh

Natsu didn't die of some ilness lol and humanity is cruel, sometimes... there are still good people out there, but the people weren't wrong when they said Zeref shouldn't mess with the natural balance of the world, with death, nothing good comes of it, Zeref as sad as his story is, it's his own fault.

Nizen · Dec 12, 2015

Re: Zeref isn't the bad guy in this story tbh

Is it his fate or does a superior being want him to be evil? It does feel like Zeref will go berserk and turn into a full psychopath in this arc. It's not totally his fault, you're right. But 400 years can change a person, y'know. There is this quote that echoes almost everywhere which says, "You either die a hero, or see yourself live long enough to become a villain".

Brandish μ · Dec 12, 2015

Re: Zeref isn't the bad guy in this story tbh

Doubt Zeref ever intended to be the bad guy but he is now. The Ankhseram curse has not only made Zeref do things that he might not have wanted to do (so that he could alleviate the burden of contradiction) but also being alive for so long makes him see things differently and has changed who he was - he has partly acknowledged this in the last chapter. He's either gotta be stopped or freed of the curse. If let to continue his current path he is an enemy of humanity just like Acnologia.

Humanity being the bad guy in the context of this manga is quite ridiculous to me. Just look at how much Mashima puts into concepts like Nakama and feelings for your comrades - a portrayal of the good in humans. There is evil and good within humanity and the individual, and it is no different in Earthland. Moreover when you call humanity 'evil' how comprehensive is the sample size you (as a reader) or Zeref dealing with? Just because there are a few awful people out there doesn't mean you can paint the whole species with the same brush, or consider the values of humanity to be evil at it's core.

EmperorSpriggan · Dec 12, 2015

Re: Zeref isn't the bad guy in this story tbh

metsujin said:
Natsu didn't die of some ilness lol and humanity is cruel, sometimes... there are still good people out there, but the people weren't wrong when they said Zeref shouldn't mess with the natural balance of the world, with death, nothing good comes of it, Zeref as sad as his story is, it's his own fault.

Acually Natsu died from a illness he got from the dragons fire or w/e

---------- Post added at 11:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 AM ----------

XXEliteXXAceXX said:
Okay well, first of all, I can understand what you're saying and I agree. Thank you for bringing this point up again. I understand that it is very controversial but I think if you really analyze it, the truth should be fairly simple. However, I see this as a real life concept. I am in full support that humanity is evil itself. Seeing how mean and screwed up humans are makes me disgusted. Anyways, I don't want to derail your thread so I'll move on to my point.

We had this discussion in a prediction/discussion thread and I'd say the sides were split in half. Like I said earlier, I am glad you brought this point up in a separate thread because I think people will really understand my point of view after reading this entire discussion. I took the position that Zeref was evil but if you read my post, you'll know why. Basically, I agree with you that Zeref's curse prevented him from loving anyone which in fact made me have sympathy for him. Sadly, that was a long time ago. Currently in the manga, Zeref himself made it clear that he wants total destruction and annihilation. If that is not evil, then I guess you could say I don't know what evilness is anymore.

But thats only cuz the curse has made gone insane and he wants to find a place to die and he has alot of people that has helped him -> Layla/anna/igneel etc

XXEliteXXAceXX · Dec 12, 2015

Re: Zeref isn't the bad guy in this story tbh

EmperorSpriggan said:
But thats only cuz the curse has made gone insane and he wants to find a place to die and he has alot of people that has helped him -> Layla/anna/igneel etc

Well, like I mentioned before, a curse has nothing to do with the mind psychologically. Therefore, going "insane" and being "cursed" are two different things. I don't mind Zeref isolating himself like he did on Tenrou Island which would be a solution to not being evil. Also, if he got rid of his thoughts about wanting to kill everyone, that would help too. Many say that Zeref only has evil thoughts or actions so that the contradictory curse can make have "good" thoughts and actions instead. Did that work? Nope. People are still dying by Zeref's own hands. So what can we conclude from it? The curse only works one way. Like I said already, isolation is one way to overcome the curse.

However, if Zeref were to do that, then there would be no plot. Hence, Zeref is the antagonist of the story. The protagonist, Natsu, is a morally good person. Consequently, it is likely Zeref is evil at least from this point and on, maybe not the past. This is what makes the storyline continue.

EmperorSpriggan · Dec 12, 2015

Re: Zeref isn't the bad guy in this story tbh

XXEliteXXAceXX said:
Well, like I mentioned before, a curse has nothing to do with the mind psychologically. Therefore, going "insane" and being "cursed" are two different things. I don't mind Zeref isolating himself like he did on Tenrou Island which would be a solution to not being evil. Also, if he got rid of his thoughts about wanting to kill everyone, that would help too. Many say that Zeref only has evil thoughts or actions so that the contradictory curse can make have "good" thoughts and actions instead. Did that work? Nope. People are still dying by Zeref's own hands. So what can we conclude from it? The curse only works one way. Like I said already, isolation is one way to overcome the curse.

However, if Zeref were to do that, then there would be no plot. Hence, Zeref is the antagonist of the story. The protagonist, Natsu, is a morally good person. Consequently, it is likely Zeref is evil at least from this point and on, maybe not the past. This is what makes the storyline continue.

Ok but lets say this .. it was humanity that drove him to become the way he is ... which is what i stated .. humanity is a vile thing (ive seen it in real life too)

Also we dont know if natsu will acually become the proganist in the end as END

XXEliteXXAceXX · Dec 12, 2015

Re: Zeref isn't the bad guy in this story tbh

EmperorSpriggan said:
Ok but lets say this .. it was humanity that drove him to become the way is ... which is what i stated .. humanity is a vile thing (ive seen it in real life too)

Also we dont know if natsu will acually become the proganist in the end as END

I see your point. I really do. But I don't see how humanity or society can affect someone in isolation. I know that being in isolation is a hard and lonely thing to do but that the best thing Zeref can do himself. The only person I see affecting him is God or Ankhseram in this case. The people in the present or the past, like the professors, just gave him a warning and nothing else. Therefore, it should have no effect on Zeref.

EmperorSpriggan · Dec 12, 2015

Re: Zeref isn't the bad guy in this story tbh

XXEliteXXAceXX said:
I see your point. I really do. But I don't see how humanity or society can affect someone in isolation. I know that being in isolation is a hard and lonely thing to do but that the best thing Zeref can do himself. The only person I see affecting him is God or Ankhseram in this case. The people in the present or the past, like the professors, just gave him a warning and nothing else. Therefore, it should have no effect on Zeref.

Even if he was isolated like he was before they came to tenrou islands .... in some form or shape greedy and disgusting people will end up finding him and use his work for evil purposes.

Also these days i usally look at the world as gray not black and white..

There is one way to cure the curse ... if they used FACE but then everyone would lose their magic powers and natsu will die cuz of the tome is his hearth and its all about magic power(which is zerefs)

XXEliteXXAceXX · Dec 12, 2015

Re: Zeref isn't the bad guy in this story tbh

EmperorSpriggan said:
Even if he was isolated like he was before they came to tenrou islands .... in some form or shape greedy and disgusting people will end up finding him and use his work for evil purposes.

Also these days i usally look at the world as gray not black and white..

There is one way to cure the curse ... if they used FACE but then everyone would lose their magic powers and natsu will die cuz of the tome is his hearth and its all about magic power(which is zerefs)

Yeah, but considering that Zeref was in hiding for years, I'm pretty sure he can stay hidden. Even Grimoire Heart had a long and difficult time tracking him. Even Tarataros who never really met him couldn't really find him. In my opinion, it is possible. As for the world, being having gray areas where things are not always black and white, I can sorta agree on that.

I don't think it'd be wise to destroy Face because it should only be used as the last result. Imagine if they did destroy Face and everyone lost magic power. I'm not too sure if Acnologia would lose his dragon form... I always thought that once he was in his dragon form, he doesn't need to use magic from his human form to replenish his energy. I think that after one achieves full dragonification, you don't need magic to keep that form. Anyways, that is pure speculation and I may be wrong.

Even if Acnologia lost all his powers and became weak, there are still demons around that use "curses". When, I say "demons", I'm not just talking about "Tartaros Demons". For all we know, there may be more of them. So imagine they defeated Acnologia with ease... If that ever happened, I may just drop the entire FT series.

EmperorSpriggan · Dec 12, 2015

Re: Zeref isn't the bad guy in this story tbh

XXEliteXXAceXX said:
Yeah, but considering that Zeref was in hiding for years, I'm pretty sure he can stay hidden. Even Grimoire Heart had a long and difficult time tracking him. Even Tarataros who never really met him couldn't really find him. In my opinion, it is possible. As for the world, being having gray areas where things are not always black and white, I can sorta agree on that.

I don't think it'd be wise to destroy Face because it should only be used as the last result. Imagine if they did destroy Face and everyone lost magic power. I'm not too sure if Acnologia would lose his dragon form... I always thought that once he was in his dragon form, he doesn't need to use magic from his human form to replenish his energy. I think that after one achieves full dragonification, you don't need magic to keep that form. Anyways, that is pure speculation and I may be wrong.

Even if Acnologia lost all his powers and became weak, there are still demons around that use "curses". When, I say "demons", I'm not just talking about "Tartaros Demons". For all we know, there may be more of them. So imagine they defeated Acnologia with ease... If that ever happened, I may just drop the entire FT series.

Yes but those demons wouldve have had died cuz all of their hearts(tomes/book) are based on etharious and magical power.

Also acnologia would probly just return to his human form and become a human again or he would just become a regulur dragon(animal) and have no magic powers (since his magic powers are dragon slayer magic which he uses (just look at the roar he did vs igneel).

Zeref may stay hidden but still he could be used for evil purposes.

They shouldve have used FACE imo would be better for everyone tbh.

Also ive been thinking about this that wat if someone evil got his hand on the tome of END(natsus heart) and unseal and controls natsu?, what if that acually happens now in this arc ... wouldnt that be kinda cool at the same time?

Arjuna · Jan 13, 2016

I was Thinking about this and thought what if Obra told him about it.Obra was asscociated with Raven Tail.Ivan knew about LH.There is a chance Obra was the Spy of Zeref and he told Zeref about FH.We saw after the GMG Obra climbed in Zeref's shoulder as if it was his destination.In The Shiloutte of the Spriggan's Fake Wahl is carrying What it seems to be Obra.