I stand corrected, but nothing implies Roger fought her or was willing to fight her, nor does anything show he was a level above the Emperors. Big Mom's face does not look like she fought Roger and lost, just that she was unable to stop him from getting to her Poneglyph.
OUtnumbered and disadvantaged enough that his own crew thought they'd lose to Shiki's fleet. Hard to believe that he was the strongest, especially when it seems he and Whitebeard had a friendly rivalry, and Whitebeard had no desire to become the Pirate King or get to Raftel. Though, at least Roger was stronger than Shiki? Didn't Shiki give up when most of his fleet was wiped out?
Being able to defeat a country's army isn't that impressive, given that Roger and his crew weren't weak.
It's implied he did it alone because he let his friends flee. He was highly defensive of his comrades. Garp explained this.
Whitebeard is said to be the only Pirate that rivalled the strength of Roger, so he is factually the strongest. No Pirate was as strong as Roger besides Whitebeard.
Even Shiki acknowledged his strength. Not sure you recall the fact Shiki even told Whitebeard that he can become the Pirate King now that Roger was gone despite the fact Big Mom and Kaido were a thing. He was the strongest, he just didn't have a crew as huge as the Emperors, but individually, he was the strongest pirate.
You do know the scar that aches Whitebeard is the one he got from Roger. Scars ache when a character are reminded of a person that defeated or bested them.
Roger is also the pirate with the highest bounty, doesn't mean he's stronger, but he is the strongest Pirate.
And Chinjao also did suggest Roger was the strongest. The person with the strongest King's Haki is the Pirate King.
Impossible to tell that. We simply don't know what happened besides he read the Poneglyph and escaped. There's no information that details whether they fought or not.
Shiki was said to be the top 3 Pirates back in that era. Roger, Whitebeard and Shiki. They were superior to everyone else.
As for Shiki giving up, that's not true. We have no idea what he's doing. All we know is he escaped Impel Down and have no idea what plans Oda has for him.
Though it's not exactly related to my point that modern yonko crews are in fact stronger than roger's crew back in the day. Because they are structured differently and have a lot more members that cover a lot of strength tiers.
That is definitely not true. Roger was as strong as an Emperor, and even as strong as Whitebeard who was the only one to rival his strength. Roger and Whitebeard were more or less the strongest Pirates, and we can't forget Roger defeated Rocks.
Rayleigh in his prime mocked Kizaru saying he was far more capable in his younger days... yet he was able to fight evenly with Kizaru and prevent him from capturing Luffy or the SHs.
Lord knows how strong Scopper Gabban was, but he's depicted as of similar rank to Rayleigh.
Essentially, you have at least, 2 individuals in the same crew who essentially comprise the strength of 2 Emperors. It's no different to a crew simply comprising of Big Mom and Kaido alone and few other capable fighters. Don't think such a crew even with that size wouldn't be able to rival any Emperor's crew.
If Scopper Gabban was up there with Rayleigh, we're potentially talking about a crew with 3 people who had the strength of Emperors. That would essentially easily be the most powerful crew even if it were a relatively small one.
It's implied he did it alone because he let his friends flee. He was highly defensive of his comrades. Garp explained this.
Whitebeard is said to be the only Pirate that rivalled the strength of Roger, so he is factually the strongest. No Pirate was as strong as Roger besides Whitebeard.
Even Shiki acknowledged his strength. Not sure you recall the fact Shiki even told Whitebeard that he can become the Pirate King now that Roger was gone despite the fact Big Mom and Kaido were a thing. He was the strongest, he just didn't have a crew as huge as the Emperors, but individually, he was the strongest pirate.
You do know the scar that aches Whitebeard is the one he got from Roger. Scars ache when a character are reminded of a person that defeated or bested them.
Roger is also the pirate with the highest bounty, doesn't mean he's stronger, but he is the strongest Pirate.
And Chinjao also did suggest Roger was the strongest. The person with the strongest King's Haki is the Pirate King.
Impossible to tell that. We simply don't know what happened besides he read the Poneglyph and escaped. There's no information that details whether they fought or not.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Shiki was said to be the top 3 Pirates back in that era. Roger, Whitebeard and Shiki. They were superior to everyone else.
As for Shiki giving up, that's not true. We have no idea what he's doing. All we know is he escaped Impel Down and have no idea what plans Oda has for him.
Shiki was top pirate of his era but head flipside of whitebeard
Being the pirate king wasn’t enough
He wanted to rule the world
To my guess he probably has the best military force
shiki was clear more of Sengoku's rival, which in itself is a clear indication of his level
it was a draw when roger escaped and got lucky when shiki's fleet got half destroyed
just being able to fight quite that serious is something
hmm well there rayleigh oden and scopper, 3 hella strong dudes
can't also get a good gauge, old dudes are powerful, kizaru and rayleigh didn't fight long tho
Hmm.. topic shift to roger, wb, shiki etc..
The question how old roger when (with garp) defeat rock, and how old wb that time ?
The fact roger + garp defeat rock (including wb, kaido & bm ?)
Roger never defeat WB
The question how strong rock ?
It's look like England premier soccer liga... manchester united lose from manchester city, manchester city lose ftom arsenal, arsenal lose from manchester united..
Who's the strongest ?
Is still meaning talk about who strongest ?
That is definitely not true. Roger was as strong as an Emperor, and even as strong as Whitebeard who was the only one to rival his strength. Roger and Whitebeard were more or less the strongest Pirates, and we can't forget Roger defeated Rocks.
Rayleigh in his prime mocked Kizaru saying he was far more capable in his younger days... yet he was able to fight evenly with Kizaru and prevent him from capturing Luffy or the SHs.
Lord knows how strong Scopper Gabban was, but he's depicted as of similar rank to Rayleigh.
Essentially, you have at least, 2 individuals in the same crew who essentially comprise the strength of 2 Emperors. It's no different to a crew simply comprising of Big Mom and Kaido alone and few other capable fighters. Don't think such a crew even with that size wouldn't be able to rival any Emperor's crew.
If Scopper Gabban was up there with Rayleigh, we're potentially talking about a crew with 3 people who had the strength of Emperors. That would essentially easily be the most powerful crew even if it were a relatively small one.
I am not talking about roger or wb specifically. Their strength is obviously yonko level at least. My post is about crews and their strength. Roger's core crew was absurdly strong but he just didn't have or cared to have the sort of army modern yonko have. Roger's crew was comprised of himself and just about 2 dozen other people (based on what we have seen so far). Modern yonko crews have a leading yonko, 10-ish core crew members including their top 3s (sweet commanders, calamities...), dozens of allied or affiliated crews which includes captains that hold a candle to commanders in some cases and then thousands upon thousands of militias. Kaido's forces numbered at around 30k iirc. Big mom had affiliated pirate crews via marriages and on top of that had an efficient and extremely disposable hommie army made from the lifespan she collected monthly from the literal kingdom she runs. BB apparently took WB's territories so his crew is probably massive as well, even if still young. Shanks is the only outlier there since we don't know how his crew is structured or whether he even has affiliated crews. Though I would guess the most likely scenario is that he has substantial affiliated forces.
I think it's important to note that roger's crew was the mightiest of his time. But times changed and the new rising powers adapted via forming larger and stronger crews. It's extremely unlikely roger's crew had as much power as a modern yonko crew. They simply are structured differently.
On another note, for all the hype around raileigh and gaban the WB pirates still managed to hold their own against them. Even though there is no one in the roger pirates at the time that seemed to hold a candle to them. Even if we make the case of oden they would still need at least one more big name to fight either.
It's implied he did it alone because he let his friends flee. He was highly defensive of his comrades. Garp explained this.
Whitebeard is said to be the only Pirate that rivalled the strength of Roger, so he is factually the strongest. No Pirate was as strong as Roger besides Whitebeard.
Even Shiki acknowledged his strength. Not sure you recall the fact Shiki even told Whitebeard that he can become the Pirate King now that Roger was gone despite the fact Big Mom and Kaido were a thing. He was the strongest, he just didn't have a crew as huge as the Emperors, but individually, he was the strongest pirate.
You do know the scar that aches Whitebeard is the one he got from Roger. Scars ache when a character are reminded of a person that defeated or bested them.
Roger is also the pirate with the highest bounty, doesn't mean he's stronger, but he is the strongest Pirate.
And Chinjao also did suggest Roger was the strongest. The person with the strongest King's Haki is the Pirate King.
Impossible to tell that. We simply don't know what happened besides he read the Poneglyph and escaped. There's no information that details whether they fought or not.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Shiki was said to be the top 3 Pirates back in that era. Roger, Whitebeard and Shiki. They were superior to everyone else.
As for Shiki giving up, that's not true. We have no idea what he's doing. All we know is he escaped Impel Down and have no idea what plans Oda has for him.
--- Double Post Merged, ---
That is definitely not true. Roger was as strong as an Emperor, and even as strong as Whitebeard who was the only one to rival his strength. Roger and Whitebeard were more or less the strongest Pirates, and we can't forget Roger defeated Rocks.
Rayleigh in his prime mocked Kizaru saying he was far more capable in his younger days... yet he was able to fight evenly with Kizaru and prevent him from capturing Luffy or the SHs.
Lord knows how strong Scopper Gabban was, but he's depicted as of similar rank to Rayleigh.
Essentially, you have at least, 2 individuals in the same crew who essentially comprise the strength of 2 Emperors. It's no different to a crew simply comprising of Big Mom and Kaido alone and few other capable fighters. Don't think such a crew even with that size wouldn't be able to rival any Emperor's crew.
If Scopper Gabban was up there with Rayleigh, we're potentially talking about a crew with 3 people who had the strength of Emperors. That would essentially easily be the most powerful crew even if it were a relatively small one.
Whitebeard was said to be the only pirate, but it's not like characters are omnipresent or know everything. They know what Oda wants us to know or think, and he could easily mislead us or give us small information that he can change later. But I never said WHitebeard was weak, I'm not sure where you got that from. I even implied Whitebeard could be superior to Roger, given that as I said, Whitebeard's ambition wasn't to be the Pirate King or the strongest.
So, why is it that you say we have no idea what happened when Roger was on Big Mom's territory, but you're acting as if Roger bested or beat Whitebeard? As far as I recall, they never said who won the fights, and in Oden's flashback they partied together after fighting for a while.
Yes Chinjao did. Again, doesn't mean much other than Roger being the strongest in Chinjao's opinion, based on the people he's come across. Luffy on Water 7 would consider Crocodile the strongest person, but would that be true? Or would that be based on Luffy's experience, and what he thinks?
Shiki did give up against Roger when his fleet got wiped out, it was in a flashback somewhere. I read Chapter 0 for the first time just now, and it didn't mention that for some reason, so I guess ODa changed it?
I think it's been heavily implied throughout the manga that PK > Emperors. From Mihawk saying Luffy's goal is harder than Zoro's (I believe this happened?) to Jinbei calling Big Mom a "mere Yonko". What we know about Roger is that he repeatedly had run ins with Garp, who was strong enough to be an Admiral or Fleet Admiral of the whole Marine force. Seems like the only emperor who could have pushed Roger was likely to of been Whitebeard. I mean the guy's first mate (Rayleigh) was sparring with Kizaru while pushing 70, and they still failed to capture him.
If we're going off assumptions then Big Mom would have come across Roger at God Valley when he and Garp took out Rocks, and she would have either fought someone there, or turned tail and run from the situation. Either way it seems like she was on the losing side, and Roger was fighting her at-the-time-Captain.
That doesn't really mean a Pirate King is superior, just that they have a bigger target on their back and would have to fight more people that are at a high level. Zoro's goal is easier than Luffy's because Zoro's main opponents are swordsmen who want to be seen as the best swordsman, not pirates who want to be the King.
I think Whitebeard had the potential to beat Roger if their fights were serious and to the death. There's a good chance that Roger was lucky that Whitebeard wanted to have a family over getting to Raftel.
I am not talking about roger or wb specifically. Their strength is obviously yonko level at least. My post is about crews and their strength. Roger's core crew was absurdly strong but he just didn't have or cared to have the sort of army modern yonko have. Roger's crew was comprised of himself and just about 2 dozen other people (based on what we have seen so far). Modern yonko crews have a leading yonko, 10-ish core crew members including their top 3s (sweet commanders, calamities...), dozens of allied or affiliated crews which includes captains that hold a candle to commanders in some cases and then thousands upon thousands of militias. Kaido's forces numbered at around 30k iirc. Big mom had affiliated pirate crews via marriages and on top of that had an efficient and extremely disposable hommie army made from the lifespan she collected monthly from the literal kingdom she runs. BB apparently took WB's territories so his crew is probably massive as well, even if still young. Shanks is the only outlier there since we don't know how his crew is structured or whether he even has affiliated crews. Though I would guess the most likely scenario is that he has substantial affiliated forces.
I think it's important to note that roger's crew was the mightiest of his time. But times changed and the new rising powers adapted via forming larger and stronger crews. It's extremely unlikely roger's crew had as much power as a modern yonko crew. They simply are structured differently.
On another note, for all the hype around raileigh and gaban the WB pirates still managed to hold their own against them. Even though there is no one in the roger pirates at the time that seemed to hold a candle to them. Even if we make the case of oden they would still need at least one more big name to fight either.
That doesn't really mean a Pirate King is superior, just that they have a bigger target on their back and would have to fight more people that are at a high level. Zoro's goal is easier than Luffy's because Zoro's main opponents are swordsmen who want to be seen as the best swordsman, not pirates who want to be the King.
I think Whitebeard had the potential to beat Roger if their fights were serious and to the death. There's a good chance that Roger was lucky that Whitebeard wanted to have a family over getting to Raftel.
I think he was implied to be equal to Whitebeard, but Whitebeard was implied to be superior to everyone. So in that sense Whitebeard probably could have become Pirate King if he actually had the ambition to. Hard to say because we only know about current emperors, who Roger in his prime is pretty much objectively stronger than all of them.
Oda has been ambiguous on the emperors then and now thing. Like, Kaido's intro said he was captured or defeated by them, but he didn't ever specify who they were..
She didn't control the homies. They vivre card that Lola gave Nami was big moms. So the homies were scared to attack something that has a part of their creator’s soul in it.
She charmed Zeus by feeding it thunder balls lol were you not paying attention?
Well all though there were reasons behind it, she was able to instill fear into Zeus. And had control over Big Mom's soul fragments. Could be more to it that just Big Mom's Vivre Card. I'm just now heading of this Nami Big Mom theory though. But anyway, Nami and Pudding do have a bit of resemblance to me. Outside of Pudding's 3rd eye. And she sure looks like the older sister. She even has an attachment to Lola like Pudding. And Nami also has that scary personality turn like Pudding. She even has a particular food craving like:
Big Mom: Everything sweet
Katakuri: Donuts
Perospero: Candy lol at Nekomamushi's nickname for him.
Nami has her Tangerine's that she is overprotective of.
We don't know how big shank's crew is. To me it sounds pretty likely he has his own affiliated crews as well. The yonko were described early in the new world sage as massive crime syndicates with spheres of influence. Shanks probably wouldn't be able to pull that off if his crew has 20 people total.
I think he was implied to be equal to Whitebeard, but Whitebeard was implied to be superior to everyone. So in that sense Whitebeard probably could have become Pirate King if he actually had the ambition to. Hard to say because we only know about current emperors, who Roger in his prime is pretty much objectively stronger than all of them.
Oda has been ambiguous on the emperors then and now thing. Like, Kaido's intro said he was captured or defeated by them, but he didn't ever specify who they were..
As I"ve said though, I don't 100% go by what characters say unless it's undisputable, especially in OP where Oda loves being unpredictable/weird. It's kind of hard to believe Roger was equal to Whitebeard, given what we've seen and heard about Whitebeard. I can believe Roger being superior to most others except for maybe Shiki though, especially Big Mom and Kaidou, if he took out Xebec on his own.
In any case, I still don't think a Pirate King has to be a level above the emperors, they just need to be able to defend themselves and/or survive. But I guess we'll know closer to or on Raftel.
Didn't Oda say the Marines captured and defeated Kaidou on multiple occasions?
It's been stated in the Vivre cards too, it's been stated in the Manga, it's been stated by Buggy, Ivankov, Joker, Crocodule and even Akainu. It's a Manga fact,
It's like the Manga telling us a character is an Admiral, and you say, well, it's not like characters are omniscient or present, the information is incorrect.
If there's no basis to question information, then there's really nothing to question. Why don't you question Oden's name? Or that Kid is a King's Haki user? It's because the Manga told us, so to now question things the Manga says is pretty hypocritical just because it's not information you like.
It's ridiculous that you even question Roger's strength when Buggy sailed with Roger, saw him fight the strongest Pirates, yet when he gives information, it's to be questioned.
Your argument in essence is a character can't know anything which basically is just nonsense. Characters can know things. Why don't you question Roger being a Pirate? Maybe it was all false? There's 0 reason to question anything.
There's no way for Oda to even give the reader information without telling us through the character. How do you know anything in this Manga without characters telling us?
Oda doesn't give false facts, otherwise, no one who reads this story can know anything. By your logic, Luffy's name my not be Luffy for no reason whatseover.
Can't claim something is false information unless there's reason to do so. No reason to question information that's not contradictory to anything.
It's convenient to claim it's misleading information when you can't really prove why, or explain why. It's rather arbitrary.
It's not rocket science, we weren't told. Why don't we know what Big Mom ate 5 weeks ago? We weren't told, so we can't know.
To say he didn't fight Big Mom or fought Big Mom as a fact.. would just lying or making up information. No one knows. Not knowing doesn't mean you can then make up information out of thin air.
Didn't have to and doesn't matter if they partied after. They tried to kill each other. They fought many times against the other if you're not aware.
And they were enemies, just enemies that still had respect for the other, and more so towards the end of Roger's life. Anyway, what's the excuse here? Not omnipresent or omniscient? Gabban doesn't know anything? Let's be real, they were enemies.
Even Garp was enemies of Roger, but he still respected him.
Nope, Chinjao encountered Garp and Roger, and was one of the great pirates in his era. He was familiar with Whitebeard and the Emperors. He also said Whitebeard was the strongest after Roger similarly to Shiki.
It's convenient for you to deny information you don't like simply because you dislike it.
Shiki did give up against Roger when his fleet got wiped out, it was in a flashback somewhere. I read Chapter 0 for the first time just now, and it didn't mention that for some reason, so I guess ODa changed it?
In fact, Shiki tried to fight Roger again which was why he went to Marineford. He never gave up.
Entire reason he fought against 2 Admirals is because he didn't believe Roger who was so strong could be captured by the Navy because of his strength.
All we know is after he got imprisoned and escaped, we've not heard or seen him. That's not the same thing as giving up.
All we know is he's MIA, we don't know if he's planning anything or scheming anything, or he's a farmer. It's still completely false to make up facts when you have 0 information. There's 0 information that tells us that he gave up, it's a baseless assumption.
Roger ruled the ocean, but I guess it's all a lie because Joker is also not omniscient or present, no character can know anything.
I am not talking about roger or wb specifically. Their strength is obviously yonko level at least. My post is about crews and their strength. Roger's core crew was absurdly strong but he just didn't have or cared to have the sort of army modern yonko have. Roger's crew was comprised of himself and just about 2 dozen other people (based on what we have seen so far). Modern yonko crews have a leading yonko, 10-ish core crew members including their top 3s (sweet commanders, calamities...), dozens of allied or affiliated crews which includes captains that hold a candle to commanders in some cases and then thousands upon thousands of militias. Kaido's forces numbered at around 30k iirc. Big mom had affiliated pirate crews via marriages and on top of that had an efficient and extremely disposable hommie army made from the lifespan she collected monthly from the literal kingdom she runs. BB apparently took WB's territories so his crew is probably massive as well, even if still young. Shanks is the only outlier there since we don't know how his crew is structured or whether he even has affiliated crews. Though I would guess the most likely scenario is that he has substantial affiliated forces.
I think it's important to note that roger's crew was the mightiest of his time. But times changed and the new rising powers adapted via forming larger and stronger crews. It's extremely unlikely roger's crew had as much power as a modern yonko crew. They simply are structured differently.
On another note, for all the hype around raileigh and gaban the WB pirates still managed to hold their own against them. Even though there is no one in the roger pirates at the time that seemed to hold a candle to them. Even if we make the case of oden they would still need at least one more big name to fight either.
Shiki was said to have a huge fleet. The concept of fleets was not a new thing.
Big Mom had a territory back in Roger's era meaning she also had a huge fleet.
Whitebeard probably also had his own allies since he has territory.
Roger was just unique, not that the Pirates between this age and that age were different. Wouldn't be surprised if he had some allies, but the story is the world hated him. Very few people were fans of Roger.
In a world where there have been Pirates for at least 400 years, I doubt that people just had this genius idea of having huge alliances? Unlikely, I doubt Pirates are as stupid to just figure out there's power in numbers recently.
We also didn't see the entirety of the fight. We don't know what happened. Either way, even if Rayleigh and co. wiped out the entire fleet, Whitebeard and Roger would have been left to continue their battle.
They knew Roger was itching to fight and more so given that he had little time left to live.
Editors of One Piece state that the series will end with 120th volume, marking final and completed half of series. Final story arc will focus primarily on the race for One Piece. Whoever acquires One Piece rules the seas. More characters with prominent roles will be introduced as well. Luffy's fate will be major surprise for all fans of series.
Editors of One Piece state that the series will end with 120th volume, marking final and completed half of series. Final story arc will focus primarily on the race for One Piece. Whoever acquires One Piece rules the seas. More characters with prominent roles will be introduced as well. Luffy's fate will be major surprise for all fans of series.
That's where I read it from and giving you the guy's twitter address, he may have more information. Just sharing someone's theory and it sounds plausible given the second half of the series is near its end. Plus I think, Oda wants to end the series with two even halves. Vols. 1-60 (part 1) and Vols. 61-120 (part 2).
sengoku is an outlier... one can make the argument that there are more marines who have it, but till we see proof, its just speculation... we havent even seen King have King's haki.
But nevertheless, Sanji's ambition has nothing to do with ruling which is why i find it unlikely, but Chinjao had it so lets see
King's Haki has nothing to do with ruling. Luffy doesn't want to rule. Katakuri doesn't want to rule. Rayleigh isn't a ruler. Ace too didn't want to rule.
Haki is something you're born with. As Garp and Ivankov said when Luffy showcased it, they said so he was born with it and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree which denotes it's genetic.
Why should the organisation determine whether or not you can have it when it's something that's been shown to express itself as a kid? Bare in mind you don't choose what organisation you're going to join, or your occupation before you're born or as a kid. Even so, what if Ace decided to join the Navy? He's not just going to lose it because of that.
Sengoku isn't an outlier, he's just born with. If Ace was a part of the Navy, he'd be a Naval officer with King's Haki.
If being a ruler or ambition is what determined King's Haki, Luffy shouldn't have it since he doesn't want to rule. No Kings have it because King's Haki has nothing to do with ruling or ambition, you're just born with it.
Genetics explains why one can't train to possess it. If you have blue eyes, you can't train yourself to have blue eyes if your eyes are brown. King's Haki is just something you have (born with) or not.
