KingOfNight

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How would you know they were veterans? Please provide a single panel showing them as powerful commanders/high ranking pirates of WB's crew yourself. You won't find a single one, I can assure you of that.

How about Newgate talking with Shanks and praising his duells with Mihawk as legendary?
Being members of the WB pirates is a clear freaking proof that they are veterans. They were always by his side, every time we see them. You think that at-that-time the man who tied with Roger will keep mere fodders on his side? Please, be my guest and provide a page that shows them being apprentices. Even if they were mere Pirates, still not cabin boys.

Are you joking around? For one, this mistranslation doesn't even talk about their duel when he said "many considered it a legend." The original translation says something along the lines of "Very few have become legends since then." Try again.

"It is." is your argument? Ahahaha, wow. So you got nothing, nothing at all to show me how and why Marco would be treated differently than the rest of Red hairs crew.
It is, due to how obvious it is. They were working under the Strongest Man in the World, the leader of the past era, with the Legendary WB Pirates, the crew who rivaled the Roger Pirates.

Just like Shanks is the ruler of his seas? Just like Big Mam and Kaido are emperors of their seas? Yeah, that's one hell of a strong argument you made.
Keep evading it. There's no two ways about it, he was called the King of the Sea( Umi no O). You asked for it, you have it.

It was said the he had the epitaph "The Strongest Man in the World" because at his prime, he was clearly the strongest person on earth after Roger [was executed]. That was twenty years ago, two years ago he shared the title of emperor of the pirate with three others. He had the strongest paramecia fruit, likely even the strongest known earth besides the very usefull darkness fruit, which Teach has sough for two decades. The last page of their clash in 434 shows them being quiet equal in form of the sky splitting in half.
Oh now, you want to give your opinion? Little late for that. I don't want it. He's the strongest, period.

It is wrong, because it's clearly wrong. Shanks was a member of Gol's crew, Jozu and Marco were likely members of Edward's crew. That's all we know about them, aside from Shanks and Buggy being one fo the youngest members of the crew, young, but strong enough to sail with the Pirate Kings crew, strong enough to survive the Grandline. What do we know about Jozu and Marco from that time? Absolutely nothing, so I ask you again, where you got the idea that they were above Shanks, or worse, how those couple years they were sailing through the New World have any influence to the current Emeperor Shanks? Please be my guest and explain this to me.
Bring me one page saying they were apprentices like Shanks. Strong to be on it, but still too inexperienced, hence, apprentice. They were by WB's side, always. They were the ones who freed Fishman Island with him. A clear indication of their status. They were never apprentices. As for the bold part, never claimed that they do.

You talk about crushing argument when you can't even provide a locgical and on the manga based reasoning...
So says you, who ignores everything he can't answer to and merely bashes other people when he has nothing else to say.

What proof do you have? Shanks is not only a Yonkou, but no other Yonkou went after him because they feared losing their strength IF they won. Shanks was on the same pedestal as the Whitebeard pirates, otherwise he'd never become a Yonkou in the first place or even fight Kaidou and make it out alive.
Okay, what is this bold part? What proof do I have? Well, all Pirates don't mind messing with the other three Yonkou, yet, no one dares touch the name WB. That, and we have Law, who implied that the Yonkou are amazing because they dared to challenged WB.
 
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Mohsen

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Is there a chapter this week? Or is it a holiday week in Japan?
 

vagabond87

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Is there a chapter this week? Or is it a holiday week in Japan?
Check chapter discussion thread in case you are curious. If there is a break most of us whine there about it and title of thread is changed :p
There is no break this week.
 
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Schabrak

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Being members of the WB pirates is a clear freaking proof that they are veterans. They were always by his side, every time we see them.

You think that at-that-time the man who tied with Roger will keep mere fodders on his side? Please, be my guest and provide a page that shows them being apprentices. Even if they were mere Pirates, still not cabin boys.

Are you joking around? For one, this mistranslation doesn't even talk about their duel when he said "many considered it a legend." The original translation says something along the lines of "Very few have become legends since then." Try again.
Being a member of the Roger pirates is a clear freaking proof that he is veterans.

The first time we see Jozu stand near WB is when Shiki visits WB, shown here. I asked for some panel showing them besides Edward, when Roger and WB were still clashing, you fail to do so, you can't provide evidence, you have no argument based on the manga. You evade to provide anything and instead create another set of claims.

Read 434, there are a lot of fodder pirates beside Newgate on the Moby Dick. And before you open your mouth again, I never mentioned Jozu or Shanks to be weaklings, just showing you the contrary of your claim.

Please provide a scan of those words you are saying he said. Unless you can't, which means you have nothing again.

It is, due to how obvious it is. They were working under the Strongest Man in the World, the leader of the past era, with the Legendary WB Pirates, the crew who rivaled the Roger Pirates.
It is, due to how obvious it is. He was working under the Strongest Man in the World, the Pirate King, with the legendary Roger Pirates, the crew which was rivaled the WB and Golden Lion Pirates and won that battle for the top.

You fail to realize that WB only became the #1 once Gol stopped being a pirate.

Keep evading it. There's no two ways about it, he was called the King of the Sea( Umi no O). You asked for it, you have it.
Keep evading logic? oO The sea has lot's of kings and has/had four Emperors. My point still stands just as firm as before. And again, even if it was meant that he rules over a larger part then the rest, which is again, based on him having so many subordinates and allied pirate crews, it's just a title, not an official position.

Oh now, you want to give your opinion? Little late for that. I don't want it. He's the strongest, period..
You obviously did read, but can't comment on it as it shows that I'm right.

Bring me one page saying they were apprentices like Shanks. Strong to be on it, but still too inexperienced, hence, apprentice. They were by WB's side, always. They were the ones who freed Fishman Island with him. A clear indication of their status. They were never apprentices. As for the bold part, never claimed that they do.
The burden of proof is on you, do you get that? You are the one failing to provide substantional evidence for your point/argument, not me.

Yeah because he took the Moby Dick and his sons with him, of course they would be with him, what's the point here? Your sentence doesn't strengthen your argument and we can't even see them in these panels, which means that they might or might not have been with him at that time. Again provide some evidence that they were, if you are so sure of it, the anime is filler of course.

Just as Shanks was besides Roger when he reached Raftel, won over every single other pirate[including WB and his crew] and marine and became Pirate King!

So says you, who ignores everything he can't answer to and merely bashes other people when he has nothing else to say.
Point me out to what I'm not answering to. Make a list if there if you feel there is a need for that, but before you do so, provide evidence for your claims please. If you can't, you confirm that you are stating your theories as facts.

I have no interest in this discussion which has gone silly anyway.
One sentence would be enough, only about the point of WB pirates being such veterans, that it would be a disgrace to be Shanks crew.
 
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KingOfNight

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Being a member of the Roger pirates is a clear freaking proof that he is veterans.

The first time we see Jozu stand near WB is when Shiki visits WB, shown here. I asked for some panel showing them besides Edward, when Roger and WB were still clashing, you fail to do so, you can't provide evidence, you have no argument based on the manga. You evade to provide anything and instead create another set of claims.

Read 434, there are a lot of fodder pirates beside Newgate on the Moby Dick. And before you open your mouth again, I never mentioned Jozu or Shanks to be weaklings, just showing you the contrary of your claim.

Please provide a scan of those words you are saying he said. Unless you can't, which means you have nothing again.
An apprentice.

You NEVER asked for that specifically. I can't fail at providing something you didn't ask for. You told me to prove whether or not they were different from Shanks back then, they were. He was an apprentice, they were not.

Those fodders beside WB were not specifically shown at the meeting with Shiki, the freeing of Fishman Island, the introduction of WB and every time WB was shown.

How about you check out the original translation? Provide, you say. Check the dialogue in the anime, or any other translation. Don't try to justify using a translation that you yourself can't make sense of.

You fail to realize that WB only became the #1 once Gol stopped being a pirate.
Try and change the topic. That doesn't matter, not even ONE bit.

Keep evading logic? oO The sea has lot's of kings and has/had four Emperors. My point still stands just as firm as before. And again, even if it was meant that he rules over a larger part then the rest, which is again, based on him having so many subordinates and allied pirate crews, it's just a title, not an official position.
You said he was never called the King of the Sea. He was. The sea doesn't have many Kings, only he has that(and before him, Roger). Your opinion is not needed.

You obviously did read, but can't comment on it as it shows that I'm right.
Assuming I can't, I still don't care. I have no obligation to answer to your opinion.

The burden of proof is on you, do you get that? You are the one failing to provide substantional evidence for your point/argument, not me.
Okay. He was an apprentice, they weren't. Done.

Just as Shanks was besides Roger when he reached Raftel, won over every single other pirate[including WB and his crew] and marine and became Pirate King!
As an apprentice.

Point me out to what I'm not answering to. Make a list if there if you feel there is a need to that, but before you do so, provide evidence for your claims please. If you can't, you confirm that you are stating your theories as facts.
This is an absolutely horrible thinking in my opinion. This is a crew that has followed him for probably 50+ year, and had already stopped doing "pirate stuff" years ago. They have immense pride in being part of the now-legendary WB Pirates; bearing a symbol they swore to carry for the rest of their lives(as demonstrated by Ace, who referred to that symbol as his "greatest pride and joy"). You really think they are so pathetic as to run for other crews for protection(or any other reason)? This is so un-Oda-like not to mention it will be like taking a dump on everything they stood for in the war. Just look at Rayleigh, his Captain died and he quit Piracy decades ago, he didn't run to WB even though he was a very close friend of both him and his Captain(shown when he cried at WB's death).

The Legendary crew that has equaled the Roger Pirates, one of the leading figures of the Roger Era, now servants for some greenhorn? They'd be a laughing stock, not only in the Manga, but also for some readers(including me). A character(s) humiliation on some Kishimoto status.
Aside from the bold part, you ignored everything else.
 

TheLuffySmile

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KingofNight In response to the spoiler at the bottom of the page:
The Whitebeard commanders hadn't even been born 50 + years ago. Maybe one or two. And at that time they were probably around the ages of 5-10. It's ridiculous how you can write things like that, and then claim that Marco & Co were experienced NW veterans compared to Shanks. As I stated before, Rayleigh calling Shanks and Buggy apprentices has nothing to do with Shanks' strength at the given time. Since you have no facts what so ever to go on regarding Marco's or Shanks' strength at the time, your argument has already lost it's point.

And how the **** do you phrase things? "You really think they are so pathetic as to run for other crews for protection(or any other reason)?" Why would it be pathetic to get help from someone whom you respect and are on good terms with? Even if they are proud to sail under the Whitebeard's flag (which they have all right to be) does in no way imply that they would find it pathetic to be aided by someone. Oh hey, they didn't get any help at all from like 40+ Allied crews at Marineford, right?

And with you just writing "Apprentice. Apprentice. Apprentice." It makes you look really pathetic. And, one does not take a person that expresses himself like that seriously.
 

KingOfNight

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KingofNight In response to the spoiler at the bottom of the page:
The Whitebeard commanders hadn't even been born 50 + years ago. Maybe one or two. And at that time they were probably around the ages of 5-10. It's ridiculous how you can write things like that, and then claim that Marco & Co were experienced NW veterans compared to Shanks. As I stated before, Rayleigh calling Shanks and Buggy apprentices has nothing to do with Shanks' strength at the given time. Since you have no facts what so ever to go on regarding Marco's or Shanks' strength at the time, your argument has already lost it's point.
How do you know that? We don't know their ages. Marco twenty years ago looked the exact same as he is now. And Jozu looked well into his twenties. Since you don't seem to understand that I don't give a fuck about how strong Shanks was, you shouldn't be even arguing.

And how the **** do you phrase things? "You really think they are so pathetic as to run for other crews for protection(or any other reason)?" Why would it be pathetic to get help from someone whom you respect and are on good terms with? Even if they are proud to sail under the Whitebeard's flag (which they have all right to be) does in no way imply that they would find it pathetic to be aided by someone. Oh hey, they didn't get any help at all from like 40+ Allied crews at Marineford, right?
It's pathetic because they were\are legends. Getting help and working under someone are too completely different things.

And with you just writing "Apprentice. Apprentice. Apprentice." It makes you look really pathetic. And, one does not take a person that expresses himself like that seriously.
Spare me. When you have no idea what the hell this discussion is about, you're in no position to call anyone pathetic. You jump out of nowhere and argue about things you that hardly tie into the main discussion, and you call others pathetic?
 

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You NEVER asked for that specifically. I can't fail at providing something you didn't ask for. You told me to prove whether or not they were different from Shanks back then, they were. He was an apprentice, they were not.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat!?
How would you know they were veterans? Please provide a single panel showing them as powerful commanders/high ranking pirates of WB's crew yourself. You won't find a single one, I can assure you of that.
Please learn to read, please don't lie and please don't change my words, please.

And what about this:
I have to bring up Jinbei again. From taking care of helpless Luffy and saving his life, he's now willing to follow his orders as a part of his crew. There is no better example in entire manga.
Do you dare to argue against it?
 
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KingOfNight

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Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat!?

Please learn to read, please don't lie and please don't change my words, please.
And what did you say here?
I asked for some panel showing them besides Edward, when Roger and WB were still clashing, you fail to do so, you can't provide evidence, you have no argument based on the manga.
You seem rather specific.

Do you dare to argue against it?
I sure as hell dare.
 
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Schabrak

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Specific in which way? Showing that they were trusted and high ranked crew members while Roger was still alive. That isn't specfic, that's a time window of five to ten years. Which is exactly your reasoning to make them so much more veterans that Shanks is in your dillusional view of the manga.

Why are you so hung up on the world "legend"? What difference does it make, when Shanks is at the top of the pirate world as Newgate, Big Mam and Kaidou were/are? Guess what, Shanks is a living legend too.
 
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KingOfNight

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Specific in which way? Showing that they were trusted and high ranked crew members while Roger was still alive. That isn't specfic, that's a time window of five to ten years. Which is exactly your reasoning to make them so much more veterans that Shanks is in your dillusional view of the manga.
So they joined after Roger's death ? You know what, you're wasting my time. Even if I point out how ridiculous that sounds, you're just gonna run away from it(like you've done two or three times in this discussion alone).
 

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How do you know that? We don't know their ages. Marco twenty years ago looked the exact same as he is now. And Jozu looked well into his twenties. Since you don't seem to understand that I don't give a fuck about how strong Shanks was, you shouldn't be even arguing.



It's pathetic because they were\are legends. Getting help and working under someone are too completely different things.



Spare me. When you have no idea what the hell this discussion is about, you're in no position to call anyone pathetic. You jump out of nowhere and argue about things you that hardly tie into the main discussion, and you call others pathetic?
Could you please provide me with the panels where you've seen a close-up good enough to determine that they looked exactly the same 20 years ago? Because I sure can't find it. And Jozu, so what, Size equals well into his twenties? He is even bigger now. Which suggests that he has always been quite massive. And I already said that Marco and Jozu seem to be around 40+

The allied crews weren't working under WB, they were there because they felt the same as Marco & Co, just look at Squardo.

I've been following the discussion and I understand it quite well. What's pathetic is that you don't actually have any points or arguments in your favor but you still continue to write.
 
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KingOfNight

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Could you please provide me with the panels where you've seen a close-up good enough to determine that they looked exactly the same 20 years ago? Because I sure can't find it. And Jozu, so what, Size equals well into his twenties? He is even bigger now. Which suggests that he has always been quite massive.
Well, I just happen to see him clearly. A close up is not needed.

The allied crews weren't working under WB, they were there because they felt the same as Marco & Co, just look at Squardo.
*Sigh* I wasn't talking about the allies.

I've been following the discussion and I understand it quite well. What's pathetic is that you don't actually have any points or arguments in your favor but you still continue to write.
Then check your reading comprehension.
 

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So they joined after Roger's death ? You know what, you're wasting my time. Even if I point out how ridiculous that sounds, you're just gonna run away from it(like you've done two or three times in this discussion alone).
Oh man, do you even understand what everyone is pointing out to you? How does they being a couple years older turn them into legends/veterans, which could never follow him? How does them being pirates for a bit longer than Shanks has anything to do with the current situation? You are clearly obtuse if you still do not get the point of my argument.

You keep moving the goal post, you move and move and never actually provide a single chapter, page or panel showing them being what you make them out to be. You never did, you can't and you know you can't and that's why you do move around and around and around. It's so highly annoying to have a discussion with someone who can't even substatiate what's he's writing. You've seen my picture from Sw, which shows Jozu two years after the execution, two years after Shanks was part of the mightiest crew, with the Pirate King, at the top of the world. If anything, Jozu and co were never on his level if we look at it this way. And please don't remind me of WB's choice to not find Raftel.

  • The Legendary crew that has equaled the Roger Pirates, one of the leading figures of the Roger Era, now servants for some greenhorn?
  • They'd be a laughing stock, not only in the Manga, but also for some readers(including me).
  • A character(s) humiliation on some Kishimoto status.
  • He is not a greenhorn! That's a fact, Shanks is one of the most renowned pirates of the world right now.
  • No they would not be such, there is absolutely nothing in the manga hinting to that. I wrote that in my first response and I do so again. Unless you can provide a panel hinting to that, but I asked you again and again to do so, but you did not and can not and therefore this is drivel by a fan of the crew, who can't accept the state of reality within the manga. Marco and Jozu would be accepted, as they are renowned pirates themself, they would not have to prove themself as Rockstar did, they would be equals in strength to Beckman and Lou. Not with those ranks obviously, as only two can have them, but they would still be at the top of the pirate world, right besides the other crew members.

    Who are those readers beside you?
  • The last sentence is a fabric of your fantasy and your fantasy alone. Putting Kishimoto into the discussion is an idiocy by itself.

You've talked about credibilty before, so I will remind you who has to prove his. Is it me who has build up his imagine as one of the most knowledgable OP fans in this forum over the last eight years or is it you who's visiting the OP forum from time to time?

Oh man, do you even remember the original point of this discussion? The WB pirates themselves are legend.
Who the cares about that and Shanks being young during his time on the Oro Jackson beside you? Nobody gives a fuck! I even mentioned them being allies as a better option some time ago, pointed out how both options were possible, before you started this whole bullshit.

It's definitely you who keeps running away from anything he can't answer to. I could care-less about your 8 years of believing you're one of the most knowledgeable OP fans.
Answering every question is not answering every question? You little troll.
 
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KingOfNight

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Oh man, do you even understand what everyone is pointing out to you? How does they being a couple years older turn them into legends/veterans, which could never follow him? How does them being pirates for a bit longer than Shanks has anything to do with the current situation? You are clearly obtuse if you still do not get the point of my argument.
Oh man, do you even remember the original point of this discussion? The WB pirates themselves are legend.

He is not a greenhorn! That's a fact, Shanks is one of the most renowned pirates of the world right now.
He is, compared to WB.

No they would not be such, there is absolutely nothing in the manga hinting to that. I wrote that in my first response and I do so again. Unless you can provide a panel hinting to that, but I asked you again and again to do so, but you did not and can not and therefore this is drivel by a fan of the crew, who can't accept the state of reality within the manga. Marco and Jozu would be accepted, as they are renowned pirates themself, they would not have to prove themself as Rockstar did, they would be equals in strength to Beckman and Lou. Not with those ranks obviously, as only two can have them, but they would still be at the top of the pirate world, right besides the other crew members.
I made it clear in my post at that time that I was talking about my opinion. At that time, YOU and everyone else were merely stating your opinions. You couldn't argue with logic, so you kept crying about evidence. You demand evidence to invalidate your opinion? Do you even comprehend how ridiculous that is? What state of reality? The one that you created out of your fantasy? If it's evidence of the "state of reality" you want, then Marco told him to go fuck himself with his invitation. Is that enough for you? Now bring me one evidence of them joining the RH Pirates. ONE. Don't even dare reply to me without one evidence of them joining Shanks. If you don't bring that, you're just a hypocrite.

The last sentence is a fabric of your fantasy and your fantasy alone. Putting Kishimoto into the discussion is an idiocy by itself.
That sentence is based on logic, and logic alone.

You've talked about credibilty before, so I will remind you who has to prove his. Is it me who has build up his imagine as one of the most knowledgable OP fans in this forum over the last eight years or is it you who's visiting the OP forum from time to time?
It's definitely you who keeps running away from anything he can't answer to. I could care-less about your 8 years of believing you're one of the most knowledgeable OP fans.

Answering every question is not answering every question? You little troll.
There are arguments, no questions. You keep running away from them. 'Cause you can't answer them.
 
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M3J

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If Whitebeard was really that powerful, why didn't he go after the other Yonkou? Why not take them out and make sure his crew was kept safe? So far, I think only Drake was willing to take on Kaidou (at best a theory), while the Supernovas are planning on allying with each other to take out the Yonkou. I don't remember anyone else trying to go after the Yonkou or their territory.
 

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Well Ace was first trying to go after Yonkou territory then he was taken in on Whitebeard's ship.

Gekko became a shibukai to try and take down Kaido after he failed originally. Crocodile tried to take down Whitebeard but failed. Mihawk fought Shanks in the past. Of course when blackbeard was a shibukai he was aiming for Whitebeard's seat on the Yonkou. Jinbei seemed to not be able to stop Big Mom from taking control of fishman island (but this might just be my speculation.).

I think this kinda goes against what you said in your last sentence but supports your premise, all of the Yonkou are ridiculously strong. The Shibukai which strike fear in 99.999999% of pirates, crap their pants when they hear the name of any of the Yonkou.

Also sorry to ask this, but what is the argument going on this thread? I really don't understand what the points in question are, if someone could list them that would be extremely helpful, again sorry.
 

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Also sorry to ask this, but what is the argument going on this thread? I really don't understand what the points in question are, if someone could list them that would be extremely helpful, again sorry.
The original argument which most seem to be missing is, the probability and results of the WB Pirates working under Shanks and sailing under his name. However, because some people seem to have an exceptional comprehension and arguing methods, it somehow turned into a "Oh my god, bro! Shanks is so awesome, man! He's like...the best creature in the planet, dude! Everyone fears and respects him, dude! He's on a whole new level, man!" arguments.
 

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The original argument which most seem to be missing is, the probability and results of the WB Pirates working under Shanks and sailing under his name. However, because some people seem to have an exceptional comprehension and arguing methods, it somehow turned into a "Oh my god, bro! Shanks is so awesome, man! He's like...the best creature in the planet, dude! Everyone fears and respects him, dude! He's on a whole new level, man!" arguments.
You are bending words mate.

The point is that nobody said that WB pirates would be sailing under his name. Its your fantasy. Also to join someone or become ally isnt the same as erasing past and becomingo somebodys dog as you try to one time after another beat into other members mind. Its your overblowing WB-pirates-fanboy thinking.

And yes, everyone except you are missing your point.
Why dont you understand that majority of people didnt missed your point but simply thing so differently that they(and me) dont even consider your point of view as rational, logical and backed up with any argumentation that makes sense. Get over it already.


If Whitebeard was really that powerful, why didn't he go after the other Yonkou? Why not take them out and make sure his crew was kept safe? So far, I think only Drake was willing to take on Kaidou (at best a theory), while the Supernovas are planning on allying with each other to take out the Yonkou. I don't remember anyone else trying to go after the Yonkou or their territory.
Drake lines pointed towards him wanting Kaidos attention. Drake knew a lot as he was shown to recognize Pacifistas abilities and pointed towards Vegapunk making progress faster than he expected, Kizaru knew him also he is a Zoan and Kaido is as it seems known for having weak spot for zoans(his army of 500 zoan users somehow points to that). So In my opinion person with such knowledge as Drake had would not want to take on Kaido who was said by Law to be someone who cant be reasoned at all.
 
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KingOfNight

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You are bending words mate.

The point is that nobody said that WB pirates would be sailing under his name. Its your fantasy. Also to join someone or become ally isnt the same as erasing past and becomingo somebodys dog as you try to one time after another beat into other members mind. Its your overblowing WB-pirates-fanboy thinking.

And yes, everyone except you are missing your point.
Why dont you understand that majority of people didnt missed your point but simply thing so differently that they(and me) dont even consider your point of view as rational, logical and backed up with any argumentation that makes sense. Get over it already.
You specifically kept saying "join Shanks" not ally with him. Allying and joining are two different things, especially since you outright mentioned Shanks leading them. Dog, servant, subordinate, doesn't matter.

What exactly is backing your "they joined Shanks" argument aside from your faith and fanboyism? At least my argument is backed by many things, not just pure faith.
 
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