I probably didn't come across clearly on this point. I don't think that DF power alone is character strength. I'm just saying that DF power is still part of a character's strength. In my example Sugar can be considered strong due to her DF ability being so hax, but that doesn't mean Sugar without the fruit is strong. If a person has no idea about her power she is likely to win, but if a person knows they can exploit her being weak physically and win. So I think we have to take a balanced approach when describing how strong a character is overall. What I personally didn't agree with you on was defining character strength on physical aspects and leaving out powers that a character can use like the fire and lighting etc. So I don't have any problems with the highlighted portion that ability [assuming DF ability, correct me if I'm missing something] is not a characters strength since we have to take into account the base character strength w/out the ability, their intelligence/strategy et cetera. I think our disagreement here is how we are defining character strength with you going the route of the base character themselves and me going the route of the base character + DF ability Correct me if I'm wrong and we can hash this out more?
More or less. I can understand determining or judging a character as strong, but the base is what makes a character exceptional. Anyone can be powerful with an ability, but to be purely power isn't. Take Cracker for example, his ability allows him to:
- Create clones that only Gear 4th can destroy.
- Multiple clones at that.
- They don't require his stamina, but a mere clap to summon.
- They fight without his input.
While this can be considered as him being strong, anyone would be considered strong if they could replicate such a feat. Of course, he's strong, but I think his strength lies in his ability.
- Strength is based on innate strength without ability; take Blackbeard, yes, he may have the Yami Yami no Mi, but if he weren't strong, all those attacks from Whitebeard and Sengoku would have defeated him; this tells us he's innately strong and more so since the Yami Yami no Mi increases the damage from attacks.
To me Luffy's stretching amplifies his base physical power. If Luffy can punch with some "X" force without stretching, I argue that stretching will result in the force of that punch being some multiple of that "X". In a fight since he is stretching I argue that Luffy is getting a power up. You argued that his ability to stretch further back is a result of his base strength and that is true, but to me that doesn't take away from the multiplier in force from stretching. Where I can agree with you here is only if Luffy has to first get his base strength to a certain level before he can actually stretch in a meaningful way to attack, which may be true.
Other abilities for the most part work this way as well. They may be easier to make quicker use out of depending on the fruit but I don't think people like Doflamingo can just use their ability in a meaningful way from the get go. For example when Tashigi and Smoker switched bodies, Tashigi was never able to make effective use of the Smoke Smoke fruit
http://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/670/3 having problems just stretching out the arm reminiscent of Luffy when he was training with the Gomu Gomu powers as a kid.
It is the result of his base strength.
The ability to stretch isn't a substantial strength.
Of course, it has benefits, but we can't dismiss the reliance on Luffy's base strength to be remotely useful. This is why when Luffy got stronger, Gear 3rd no longer shrinks his body; Gear 2nd is no longer as difficult to maintain.
Abilities like Joker's are no different to Luffy's in term of being able to use, everything requires practice. The thing however is Joker's ability still offers a great advantage. Strings that allow to attack multiple opponents, create a clone, and a birdcage which remains as long as he's not unconscious; there's no dependency on stamina or strength.
Smoker's ability stretching isn't the same as Luffy's stretching. They may be the same, but the mechanism isn't.
However, in general what makes Luffy's fruit a double edge sword that is different from any other fruit? There is no inherent weakness aside from regular DF weakness that Luffy has to deal with just by having the Gomu Gomu powers. The double edge parts all come from his Gears, which is from how he is using the fruit. Sure he has to be strong on his own to make any good use of the Gears but why is him choosing to use his DF powers in this way irrelevant?
To me this boils down to: Can any person with a DF use their power in a way that makes them stronger but acts as a double edge sword? Chopper for me is a perfect example of this, since his Monster Point is a double edge sword as well, but is not an inherent weakness of his fruit since he has to choose to use the fruit in that way for it to be a problem. Something to look out for is if other people also use their DF power in a way that can be harmful to them.
This point might also be a matter of perspective. I view a fruit power as a double edge sword if it inherently comes with a weakness that is always active like Black Beard and Law, whose fruits have a price for just using the power in any form. Others have to use their power in a specific way to have the drawbacks. If you view this in a different way, which it seems you do, I'm curious as to why you define the choice of how the power is used as not really relevant?
It is a double edged sword. Luffy's ability requires his strength in all areas, even the length at which he can stretch and control. Other abilities just require control. There's no stress on their stamina, their base strength, or their durability or pain threshold. There's a reason that when Luffy uses Gear 4th, Rayleigh says its too hard on his body.
It's not just Gear 4th, but all his Gears take a toll until he gets stronger physically to adapt like one does at a gym when their strength increases and adapts to the intensity at which they workout with weights and endurance. Luffy's ability is power that depends on his own strength and an increase at the cost of his own strength; almost all other abilities just offer up a straight up advantage or strength at no cost at all. Perona demoralising an opponent doesn't require her strength, stamina, or pain-threshold - simply fly into the opponent and they're done for.
Also, if one watches Luffy use his Gomu Gomu punches as a kid, starting out and now, Luffy used to have to hold his arms just to aim and was making a lot of blunders. Now, he can do a lot of things he couldn't do then without the aids he had to implement.
The things Luffy does could never have been done if he had the perfect control as a kid because he lacked the strength; the things other DF users do could be done without the strength, but with perfect control. Luffy's ability is not an ability for the weak.
I think I covered most of this in my first part of this reply. Since I view strength to be both body and ability together. The match up between Luffy and Enel to me is one where Luffy is physically stronger and Enel has an overall much more powerful DF. In this case, the powers did not match up well since Luffy had immunity to most of Enel's powers, making the fight a mostly physical one. Since Luffy is physically stronger than Enel I think the fight turning out the way it did makes a lot of sense.
I think where we may differ here is I would still say Enel is the stronger character overall while you would say it is Luffy (I may be mistaken in assuming this)? I think of it like if Enel were to face 100 random fighters of random varying strength and Luffy were to do the same, that Enel would have a better average than Luffy. In most fights Enel's lighting would play a huge factor and the fact he is a logia in itself would be too much for most people to handle while Luffy wouldn't be as difficult since they can hit him and well he can't shock them with millions of volts. To be clear this would have to be a random sample of opponents. If we chose strong people with haki from the New World, Luffy may due better than Enel even at that point since he is more physically durable.
Seems to be more of a case where Enel is just more advantaged.
You could fight someone physically weaker than you, but if they have a gun, are they necessarily stronger than you? Not at all, it's more like they're advantaged. DFs are in essence like weapons; for the most part, they're just pure advantage. That's why Monet could prove problematic to Luffy and Perona could be a handful despite her being relatively weak physically.
I think this is just the same as above. Distinguishing between pure DF power and the DF power + physical ability in our definitions of strength. Ace had physical ability, so he could fight without relying on just his DF power alone.
That's why Ace is strong as are all other exceptional character. Characters like Garp, Akainu, Aokiji would all be powerful regardless of ability. Akainu for example taking Whitebeard's attacks isn't because of his ability, but his innate durability and threshold for pain. These are things that DF do not really ascertain.
I can agree with that. You're essentially just saying that DF powers aren't all equal. Something like Mera Mera, Magu Magu, etc are just more powerful abilities than powers like Hanna Hanna, Gomu Gomu, etc. The user will obviously matter too but that is besides the point.
It is the point though. That's the only reason why character are suddenly fodder once ability is taken away. Only the truly strong are still a threat regardless of ability being taken away.
I understand that Luffy is strong on his own. Where I think you need to be more nuanced is where you say all rubber does is allow him to stretch. While that is technically true, it is too simplistic. By stretching Luffy can punch harder since the force of his base strength is multiplied by some factor. His stamina as in energy reserves is not related to him being rubber but his stamina as in how much physical damage he can take is. Since his power makes him immune/highly resistant to blunt damage he can tank more attacks thanks to his fruit. That should not take away from his own base stamina though since I'm sure he can take a lot of damage just his body like Zoro can. I'm just saying that his fruit allows him to take more than his base physical limit at any given point in time.
It isn't simplistic or requires nuance, it's just the honest fact of the matter.
Stretching is based on his innate strength,
- Gears depend on his pain-threshold, strength and durability.
- Every aspect of his power is reliant on his base.
Even if he can stretch, that's not the reason his attacks are powerful; he himself is still naturally powerful.
Even if he has high resistance, most of his fights are not entirely from blunt based attacking opponents. As we saw, when Luffy fought Moriah, Kuma brought out the pain that Luffy was fighting under. That had nothing to do with his ability, but his ability to endure and persevere and fight on regardless of the condition. Or, Luffy fighting Crocodile even though he should have been paralysed, it shows the fortitude Luffy has. His strength is not entirely DF based, and for the most part, it's a double edge-sword; he is innately strong.
The only thing Luffy is immune to is being crushed as rubber bounces back into original shape, but his pain and the pain he feels and takes is as great as any. Look how he still fought Magellen despite the excruciating pain? Or how he survived Ivankov's treatment? His strength is for the most part innate, and they're greatly highlighted by his ability. If any weakling had Luffy's ability, the ability would simply look like trash.
