One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[nik87]

I think Emma is definitely a power up. The first time he used it, his output was boosted in a way that was akin to someone not knowing their own strength, like when you try to hug someone and ends up squashing them because your strength have been multiplied.

Enma does what no other sword can do as far as we know. No sword in the entire Onepiece universe can suck someone’s haki to the point that even their physical body suffers and shrivels up. To cut a cliff with any other sword, Zoro will exert more energy to do so, but with Enma, it's all automatic, all it takes is an effortless swipe and the cliff will be cut, so how the hell is the sword not a power up?

For starters, it saves Zoro stamina, which means Zoro can last longer in battle as long as he defends properly and attacks with precision, as in, not waste haki unnecessarily by attacking often, rather, attacking only when there's an opening. That's one.

Secondly. The fact that Zoro learns to stop Enma from sucking too much haki so that his hands doesn’t shrivel up anymore, doesn’t mean the sword still isn’t sucking more than necessary, it just means that it have been reduced to the point that Zoro’s hands doesn’t shrink anymore. In other words, Zoro have stopped the physical toll it takes on his body by stopping it from sucking everything at a go, or in one full sweep, now it isn't instantaneous. And after Zoro understood it's mechanics, why else would he think the sword would make him stronger? Having the character tell us himself, isn't that the same thing as being spoon-fed? Why do people prefer going against the author with their mental gymnastics? Like for example, someone saying Zoro is stronger than Luffy when the Vivre card have already told us otherwise?

Back to the sword. The way I see it... Reduce Enma's rampage, your hand won't shrink and you still get to send out stronger attacks. Allow enma to rampage and go all out... and you might even end up defeating someone on a higher tier than you are. It's a perfect power up for our sword boy.

Boy oh boy... I started reading and already in the first paragraph I was like "You cant be serious..." and I wanted to stop reading the entire thing but I forced myself to read further, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and chance to explain your reasoning but then I saw this:

it saves Zoro stamina, which means Zoro can last longer in battle

I dont understand how we can read the same manga and get to two completely different results when it is so clear...

You do realize that anyone could have had that buff of cutting the cliff while wanting to cut the tree? And that nobody, literally nobody wants it?
Zoro can last longer because it saves him stamina? Did you read the part where he was exhausted after a single slash? Does that look like he can last longer?
The buff doesnt come free of charge and nobody wants it because it spends your haki IF you cant prevent it from draining it.

Did you not see him cut the bamboo trees on literally second use of the sword and did you not see him cut up a beast pirates member and did you notice no drain is happening whatsoever? Nobody wants their haki drained because they cant get enough of haki even without a vampire sword.
Yes, Zoro said he will have to get stronger and you will have to wait and see how he got stronger. No one has any proof of what is different about Zoro.

 

[kcd]

I dont understand how we can read the same manga and get to two completely different results when it is so clear...

You do realize that anyone could have had that buff of cutting the cliff while wanting to cut the tree? And that nobody, literally nobody wants it?
Zoro can last longer because it saves him stamina? Did you read the part where he was exhausted after a single slash? Does that look like he can last longer?
The buff doesnt come free of charge and nobody wants it because it spends your haki IF you cant prevent it from draining it.

Did you not see him cut the bamboo trees on literally second use of the sword and did you not see him cut up a beast pirates member and did you notice no drain is happening whatsoever? Nobody wants their haki drained because they cant get enough of haki even without a vampire sword.
Yes, Zoro said he will have to get stronger and you will have to wait and see how he got stronger. No one has any proof of what is different about Zoro.

Yea I'm not really looking to argue with you, and I'll have to reread to be sure, but I'm under the impression haki and stamina are two different things.
If enma sucks haki as well as stamina, then that's very bad.
My other points still stand though.

 

[nik87]

Yea I'm not really looking to argue with you, and I'll have to reread to be sure, but I'm under the impression haki and stamina are two different things.
If enma sucks haki as well as stamina, then that's very bad.
My other points still stand though.

You saw with your eyes what Luffy looks like when he runs out of Haki due to G4 and you want the same effect on Zoro? I am sure that's not a recipe for lasting longer in a battle. Zoro cannot allow himself to enter a high-quality fight without Hardening on his sword and despite his fights ending with one clean slice, he spends good amount of time working up to that opening and certainly having your haki wasted on the unsuccessful exchange is not a good thing.

I never said it drains his stamina, haki drain is plenty of a burden but it is all good since he can completely neutralize that effect.
Which other points?

 

[kcd]

Hardening on his sword and despite his fights ending with one clean slice, he spends good amount of time working up to that opening and certainly having your haki wasted on the unsuccessful exchange is not a good thing.

I never said it drains his stamina, haki drain is plenty of a burden but it is all good since he can completely neutralize that effect.
Which other points?

But did you even read with understanding what I wrote?
Here:

For starters, it saves Zoro stamina, which means Zoro can last longer in battle as long as he defends properly and attacks with precision, as in, not waste haki unnecessarily by attacking often, rather, attacking only when there's an opening. That's one.

If he effortlessly achieves the same damage, it means it saves him energy and I even went to give a condition which is : He shouldn't waste haki unnecessarily by attacking often, rather, he should attack only when there's an opening. Saving stamina and not attacking unnecessarily (saving haki) is a recipe for lasting long, or longer. Anyways, don't wanna argue, just stating my opinion. If you don't agree, just move on. I prefer Oda's spoon-fed information instead of unnecessary mental gymnastics.

 

[roggie]

If it saves or sap away his stamina, either way it's a power up.
To be constantly drained of your energy is basically the formula to become stronger, faster, etc
Enma is his personal gym.

 

[afromarco005]

But did you even read with understanding what I wrote?
Here:

If he effortlessly achieves the same damage, it means it saves him energy and I even went to give a condition which is : He shouldn't waste haki unnecessarily by attacking often, rather, he should attack only when there's an opening. Saving stamina and not attacking unnecessarily (saving haki) is a recipe for lasting long, or longer. Anyways, don't wanna argue, just stating my opinion. If you don't agree, just move on. I prefer Oda's spoon-fed information instead of unnecessary mental gymnastics.

I agree lasting long is important in one piece just like irl.

 

[kcd]

I agree lasting long is important in one piece just like irl.

Yes, but the lasting long part I meant is about the manga, not the other lasting long in real life.
Hopefully Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji learns to keep up with Jimbei in how long they can fight.

 

[nik87]

If it saves or sap away his stamina, either way it's a power up.
To be constantly drained of your energy is basically the formula to become stronger, faster, etc
Enma is his personal gym.

If he effortlessly achieves the same damage, it means it saves him energy and I even went to give a condition which is : He shouldn't waste haki unnecessarily by attacking often, rather, he should attack only when there's an opening. Saving stamina and not attacking unnecessarily (saving haki) is a recipe for lasting long, or longer. Anyways, don't wanna argue, just stating my opinion. If you don't agree, just move on. I prefer Oda's spoon-fed information instead of unnecessary mental gymnastics.

I feel like I am talking to walls... There is no constant drain.
He cannot effortlessly reach the same damage, it doesnt pop up out of nowhere, it is on the expense of Haki and that is more precious resource than stamina.
THE OTHER TWO SWORDS DONT HAVE THE SAME EFFECT THAT ENMA DOES, so he still has to do the same effort.

If you think Zoro will spend the entire fight just defending hoping for an opening to show up, you haven't been following Zoro's character so far.
Oda did spoon feed us and I am not the one who is using mental gymnastics. You will have to wait for proof if you want to claim that Zoro is stronger because so far post-Enma Zoro is featless and the little action that we did see doesnt support your claims.

 

[XXGenesis]

Enma is a magic sword.
It does drain or uses it's users Haki in a higher potency.

Ex. The Cliff...Zoro can achieve the same effect of cutting that cliff. But he wouldn't be using as much haki as Enma allowed him to at that time..or I'm pretty sure use that much haki period in attack..

So Enma is a sword that constantly draws out max Haki..Zoro mastering this Sword or even taming it a little bit is going to drastically increase his haki output & control.

 

[nik87]

It does drain or uses it's users Haki in a higher potency.

Enma is a sword that constantly draws out max Haki

Seems like manga disagrees with your claims. No drain whatsoever.

 

[kcd]

I feel like I am talking to walls... There is no constant drain.
He cannot effortlessly reach the same damage, it doesnt pop up out of nowhere, it is on the expense of Haki and that is more precious resource than stamina.
THE OTHER TWO SWORDS DONT HAVE THE SAME EFFECT THAT ENMA DOES, so he still has to do the same effort.

If you think Zoro will spend the entire fight just defending hoping for an opening to show up, you haven't been following Zoro's character so far.
Oda did spoon feed us and I am not the one who is using mental gymnastics. You will have to wait for proof if you want to claim that Zoro is stronger because so far post-Enma Zoro is featless and the little action that we did see doesnt support your claims.

You can argue all you want. The proof I have enma's a power-up is Zoro's words, a character in the Manga by the way. What proof do you have? Your mental gymnastics to counter Zoro's words. Sure bud, you definitely aren't the wall here.

 

[nik87]

You can argue all you want. The proof I have enma's a power-up is Zoro's words, a character in the Manga by the way. What proof do you have? Your mental gymnastics to counter Zoro's words. Sure bud, you definitely aren't the wall here.

I have:
1. Common sense to ask for proof.
2. The realization that Zoro's words could be true and it can not be what you think it is.
3. The fact that things which manga characters say dont always end up true.
4. The fact that Zoro uses Enma and has no drain whatsoever.
5. The fact that he also uses 2 more swords which dont have Enma's gimmick.

 

[kcd]

Enma is a magic sword.
It does drain or uses it's users Haki in a higher potency.

Ex. The Cliff...Zoro can achieve the same effect of cutting that cliff. But he wouldn't be using as much haki as Enma allowed him to at that time..or I'm pretty sure use that much haki period in attack..

So Enma is a sword that constantly draws out max Haki..Zoro mastering this Sword or even taming it a little bit is going to drastically increase his haki output & control.

Exactly one of the reason why I'd prefer if Zoro turns another sword into a black blade. Enma steals haki and does what no other sword can do. If it gets turned to a black blade, the feat won't seat well with me because it would feel like enma did all the hard work.

--- Double Post Merged, May 17, 2020, Original Post Date: May 17, 2020 ---

I have:
1. Common sense to ask for proof.
2. The realization that Zoro's words could be true and it can not be what you think it is.
3. The fact that things which manga characters say dont always end up true.
4. The fact that Zoro uses Enma and has no drain whatsoever.
5. The fact that he also uses 2 more swords which dont have Enma's gimmick.

1) I have common sense to see that enma is extraordinary, that it is not like other swords.
2) I have common sense to also note that Zoro made his comment after learning/maybe seeing what enma can do.
3)On your third point, they don't always end up true, correct, but we've seen that the sword is not normal, and common sense should tell us that Zoro is more likely to be correct because he specializes in armament.
4)I thought the shriveling up only happens when he uses haki. I haven't checked yet so I can't say for sure.
5)Still doesn't mean enma haven't enabled him to gain higher insight and mastery over haki. What is even your point here?

--- Double Post Merged, May 17, 2020 ---

You will have to wait for proof if you want to claim that Zoro is stronger because so far post-Enma Zoro is featless and the little action that we did see doesnt support your claims.

You've gone to reread the chapter that's probably why you haven't replied yet. So after you come back to continue your mental gymnastics, you have to remember that those claims aren't mine, they're Zoro's, a character in the manga who specializes in haki and obviously learnt from one of the best.
Unless you know how to use haki too then maybe I'll take your arguments seriously.

 

[XXGenesis]

Seems like manga disagrees with your claims. No drain whatsoever.

Huh, what?
Latest chapters with Zoro using Enma not sapping..him??

Face palm. You read the same chapters previous before I did. That's what the argument is centered around. Stop grabbing for thin air points, just to be correct about something. Makes you look crazy..

Enma is a cursed sword. It sucks Haki out to the max, if you dont have high haki control to regulate/tame the sword. You'll probably die with a few swings. I.e Shriveled Zoro arm after cutting cliff....

Zoro has obviously tamed this Sword to some extent. When it comes down to Enma technique's he's going to he dishing out all nee lv of power.

 

[Aliocha]

5)Still doesn't mean enma haven't enabled him to gain higher insight and mastery over haki. What is even your point here?

--- Double Post Merged, May 17, 2020 ---

I think you're right here:

Enma just drains his haki when he uses it to cut

 

[Pirate Queen]

Zoro having Enma is like what happened in Bleach manga.

Ichigo Kurosaki have a massive amount of spiritual pressure and constantly releasing large amounts of Spiritual power. Once Ichigo REFINED that Spiritual power he reached a new level of strength even when he had the basis of that strength prior. And in refining that power his spiritual pool grew as well.

Enma is Zoro's way to refined/ control his already powerful haki, thus making him much stronger.

Enma or even the process of wielding Enma is a power up, it can't be that had to understand. It will make his stronger, per his own words. What he learns from it...

Or it can be the complete opposite where Enma teaches Zoro how to release a massive amount haki without shriveling up so he could "get used" to such haki drainage

 

[kcd]

I think you're right here:

Enma just drains his haki when he uses it to cut

That was back then. Now, he's probably learnt to stop enma from sucking him dry, sucking everything per se, that's why his hands won't shrink anymore.

The only situation I see his hands shriveling up again is when he allows enma to suck everything, so that he might maybe hurt someone he would've been otherwise unable to hurt without the sword. He could allow it if he sees he's unable to cut someone like Kaido.

 

[Aki1991]

Why are we only talking about Zoro? It's getting boring imo.

I am rereading one piece again and for me it's more than clear that Zoro > Sanji. I love Sanji, but Zoro is stronger. This is a fact like it is also a matter of fact that Luffy > Zorro.

How would you rate the SH crew? I think it is difficult, since they are having different strength and weaknesses.

However, I will give it a try:

1. Luffy (clearly the strongest)
2. Jinbei
3. Zoro (maybe he will be second after Wano)
4. Sanji (can be third in the future)
5. Frankie
6. Brook
7. Robin (5 - 7 are close imo)
8. Lysop
9. Nami (because of Zeus)
10. Chopper (he was strong before time skip, but now he is only a sweet mascot unfortunately...)

Carrot would be mid tier, if she joins.

 

[nik87]

How would you rate the SH crew?

1. Zoro
2. Luffy
3. Jinbe
4. Franky
5. Sanji
6. Robin
7. Chopper/Brook
8. Chopper/Brook
9. Nami
10. Usopp

--- Double Post Merged, May 18, 2020, Original Post Date: May 18, 2020 ---

1) I have common sense to see that enma is extraordinary, that it is not like other swords.
2) I have common sense to also note that Zoro made his comment after learning/maybe seeing what enma can do.
3)On your third point, they don't always end up true, correct, but we've seen that the sword is not normal, and common sense should tell us that Zoro is more likely to be correct because he specializes in armament.
4)I thought the shriveling up only happens when he uses haki. I haven't checked yet so I can't say for sure.
5)Still doesn't mean enma haven't enabled him to gain higher insight and mastery over haki. What is even your point here?

1. Common sense that Enma is just a regular blade in hands of capable user. Oden has proved it, Zoro has proved it. They wear the pants in house, not Enma.
2. Again, Zoro's words can be true and still not be what you think it is. It could be a step towards the black blade and nothing else. Zoro's words are true and nothing changed about Zoro until he creates the black blade.
3. I like the double standard here that Plotcage bois are pushing:
Zoro says he can cut everything. - "Not true, he couldnt cut the Birdcage."
Zoro says he will get stronger. - "Why would you doubt his words???"
4. He wanted to cut the tree from point blank range, no haki was needed for it. He has cut several times on panel with Enma without any drain happening.
5. Higher insight and mastery translates into exactly what? Point out that power-up.
The point here is that he has 2 blades more which dont suck the haki out so he still has to release the same amount of haki when using those. Enma doesnt do anything for the other two swords. The power-up logic has been flawed from the very start and literally nobody has any proof of what is different about Zoro's slashes because they are not different at all.

You've gone to reread the chapter that's probably why you haven't replied yet. So after you come back to continue your mental gymnastics, you have to remember that those claims aren't mine, they're Zoro's, a character in the manga who specializes in haki and obviously learnt from one of the best.
Unless you know how to use haki too then maybe I'll take your arguments seriously.

As I said, Zoro's words can be true and nothing has changed. Yeah, Zoro is a character who actually thinks about haki, he isnt ink on paper...
Point a finger at what Zoro can do what he couldnt do before and use facts not mental gymnastics.

Huh, what?
Latest chapters with Zoro using Enma not sapping..him??
Face palm. You read the same chapters previous before I did. That's what the argument is centered around. Stop grabbing for thin air points, just to be correct about something. Makes you look crazy..

Enma is a cursed sword. It sucks Haki out to the max, if you dont have high haki control to regulate/tame the sword. You'll probably die with a few swings. I.e Shriveled Zoro arm after cutting cliff....
Zoro has obviously tamed this Sword to some extent. When it comes down to Enma technique's he's going to he dishing out all nee lv of power.

I am grabbing for thin air points? In case you didnt realize I just gave you manga panel facts which prove your claims wrong.
Enma is not a cursed sword, sorry to disappoint you again. It doesnt suck out any haki at all in hands of Zoro and Oden, see manga panels again.

"Zoro gonna be dishing out all new lvl of power"... Lmao, mental gymnastics over 9000! Zoro has been dishing out mountain buster levels of power long before Enma and unless he needs to split Onigashima or mt Fuji in half he wont need to dish out that much power, not even close since his targets are incomparably smaller than a mountain.

 

[Brandish μ]

1. Luffy
2. Zoro
3. Sanji
4. Jinbei
Franky, Robin, Brook
Chopper, Nami, Usopp

That's how I see it, even if Jinbei is currently 2 or 3, it won't matter in my view, he'll be 4th at the end of Wano.

2. Luffy

5. Sanji