One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[kkck]

You have no evidence or credence to this claim. Jozu’s DF ability has been up for debate for years with how it interacts with Haki.

Welp, there is some wiggle room but I think @Fox666 has a good case there. We never actually see jozu move freely when in his diamond form. In the image he posted jozu keeps his arm in thee exact same position is was when he hit kizaru after having hit him. He never transforms his entire face into diamind, just half. And it's just altogether weird that he wouldn't just stay transformed into diamond the entire time if there is no downside to it. Gonna have to read up on that but I am almost sure every instance we saw of jozu is actually consistent with him being unable to move freely when transformed into diamond.

 

[goldb]

Did you delete my post?

No. But you do have a deleted post in the art contest thread. Maybe it's that. PM next time you have an issue you want to address.

 

[Prxnce]

You serious? One Piece Visual Dictionary, 2018.

Guys, this was my mistake, I meant One Piece Novel A vol. 2., please mind that little Freudian slip and I'll explain:

Mihawk was not a Shichibukai 6 years ago. When Ace was offered the 7th vacant spot (4/5 years ago) he was not not one of the existing 7. At that time only 2 warlords were not confirmed as members, Mihawk and Kuma.

This is easily confirmed. 12 years ago during Grey Terminal immolation, only the WG and Marines knew the relationship between Luffy and Dragon (via Grap). Even Ivankov, Dragaon's 2nd at the time didn't know yet somehow, Kuma did.

We can guess that either Dragon told hold in spite of not telling Ivankov (which I don't believe) or he learned from the WG and Marines (which is most likely) but it is not relevant, because we know Kuma was in service of both organizations up until 1 years ago.

We know that Kuma got his final cybernetic enhancements at most 3 years ago (including the current year), 3 years following Shanks becoming an emperor. this tells us his campaign with the WG was instigated before. I am not making theories here I am referring to the timeline (which is why I created the timeline thread.)

That is a period of 9 years working with the WG which predates both Shanks becoming an emperor and Mihawk becoming a warlord. That is the relevance of Kuma to the points I made. I am showing you Mihawk assumed the warlord spot Ace declined.

4/5 years ago is when Ace was offered the 7th warlord spot, Mihawk was not a warlord and before that, Shanks would seek out Mihawk to challenge him and gained his fame from those duels until Mihawk lost interest. It is also mentioned here that Shanks never had interest in being PK or OP like Roger but to be different and have a bigger impact.

On the contrary, in One Piece Visual Dictionary, 2018; Mihawk's vivre card it s states that he was famous before the Great Pirate Era even started, that he became a warlord despite having no crew simply to travel freely through this Great Pirate Age which is credited to the death of Gol D. Roger. That he is waiting for someone even stronger than Shanks.

PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF I SHOULD SPOILER MARK THIS AS DETAILS ARE FROM OFFICIAL SOURCE, I'M UNSURE HOW THIS THREAD DIFFERENTIATES.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Mihawk was not a Shichibukai 6 years ago.

You know this how? Through the relationship between Dragon and Luffy? Lol, what are you on mate?

 

[Ellenate]

Has there ever been any tier list made for the sh crew (people throwing around concepts like "the monster trio" makes me think there hasn't).

for s&g i'm throwing in; grandfleet captains, temp members, and characters people thought were going to join

Strawhat ranking (order from top-to-bottom)

Broken
Nami (if naval battles were a thing)
Zoro (no plot)
Luffy
---

THREAT
Franky(with general/mechs)
Jinbe
Carrot (sulong)
Sanji (raid suit/no plot)
Franky
bartolomeo (even if the battles with any of the people below would be stalemates- i see him coming out on top eventually.)
Hajrudin
Sai (ehh...)
---

ANNOYANCE (strong but...)
cavendish (other personality)
leo (no plot)
Carrot
zoro (as shown in the story)
chopper (i feel he can close the distance on usopp)
leo
usopp
---

Weaker than Usopp
sanji (no raid suit)
ideo (one trick pony?)
cavendish
robin (on paper)
brook
orlumbus (???)
rebecca
---

Support (great aid but aren't doing much solo / without plot)
nami (no environmental advantage)
vivi
robin (she's done little to nothing)

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Kinemon is a hard ball since he didnt really show much feats besides fighting Kaido. I think Kinemon is VA Vergo level, and all the 9RS were somehow able to get power up by using Ryo haki to damage Kaido but only for a little bit. Kinemon was shocked that Zolo cut Pica in half, but who wouldnt be. Kinemon had a brief clashed with Doffy and lost but I wouldnt count it agaisnt, even though imo Doffy > Kinemon. He also seems to be the defacto leader of 9RS and maybe the strongest among them, debateble though. Kinemon lost to Law but thats mostly because had no idea of Laws powers, though that shouldnt make it an excuse.

I would put Jozu higher or equal to Vista, but def higher than Ace. Ace doesnt seem that strong in NW veteran terms, he had the potential to be stronger but didnt.

ace tied with jinbei and was a 500m man, he was pretty strong
he just just faced 2 dudes who were terrible matchups for him in akainu and blackbeard

also kinda disappointing that all kidd is doing is suplexes and slams

 

[kkck]

To me kinemon isn't that high in the pecking order. The difference between him and zoro is and has been substantial since they met. The issue to consider here is that kinemon was, until recently, a more skilled haki user than zoro. Hence why he could cut kaido. But even then, zoro was ultimately the stronger one. We know having a more advanced form of haki doesn't mean you are necessarily stronger than someone specifically.

 

[LadyVados]

I think it's almost certain Jozu is more durable than Kaido. Big Mom couldn't do any damage to her seastone cuffs. Seastone is hyped up as being as hard as diamond.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 24, 2021, Original Post Date: Feb 24, 2021 ---

I don't think that's anywhere on the Visual Dictionary. Shanks definitely became more famous after becoming Yonkou than after clashing Mihawk.

1- Yonkou have more notoriety than Mihawk.
2- Shanks didn't defeat Mihawk anyway.

Notoriety has nothing to do with individual strength and it's a very different topic. Yonkous make more noise as they conquer the New World and build gigantic and powerful crews, making a name for themselves as "the most powerful pirates". The quotation marks are not to say they are not powerful, but it's the opposite of Mihawk acts. He didn't build anything other than a title. He just went about challenging strong people and only those he has fought seriously can know exactly what kind of power he has. Everyone else can just make assumptions based on him being a Shichibukai and not a Yonkou, like some readers do, ignoring context and characterisation.

I wonder... Rayleigh is the most notorious character in the verse... does that mean he's the strongest ?

 

[Nie Li]

I wonder... Rayleigh is the most notorious character in the verse... does that mean he's the strongest ?

He's definitely among the strongest, but he's not the strongest. As I say in that post: Notoriety has nothing to do with individual strength and it's a very different topic.

 

[LadyVados]

Spoiler: 1005

The monster trio is Luffy, Zoro and Robin. Take your L Sanji and Jinbei fans

 

[albertwv]

So it seems like its gonna be Sanji vs Jack

 

[Knight of Stalwart Heart]

Sanji is just the strongest out of the rest of the crew excluding Luffy and Zoro, and he will always try to look cool in front of Nami and Robin, that's why when they attack Surume he wanted Nami to look at him, when it came to the Pacifista he just didn't want to be outdone by Zoro, the reasons for Sanji fighting are always pretty obvious if you read back, Sanji never fights because he wants a fight he always fights in order to look cool in front of women, when he doesn't want Zoro to mook him or when he needs to fight to protect Nami and Robin (and by extension the crew), Sanji would never go out of his way to look for a fight something which is not the case for Luffy and Zoro as the 2 of them are always the 2 starting fights and actively looking for them,

Sanji has had the same number of fights as Franky even though he joined the crew far earlier than him, if Sanji was as relevant to fights as Luffy and Zoro shouldn't he also have had over 10 fights like them?

this is the number of fights all individually have:

Luffy - 12
Zoro - 11
Sanji - 4
Jinbe - 0*
Robin - 1
Franky - 4
Brook - 2
Chopper - 5
Usopp - 4
Nami - 3

If Sanji was a frontline fighter like Luffy and Zoro he would have had more fights just like them, Sanji is just the strongest after Luffy and Zoro that's it, he has never been a frontline fighter from day 1.

This information seems biased because it seems you have counted every battle (short and long drawn out fights) Zoro has had with enemies as a "fight" while in Sanji's case you haven't. Simply saying the numbers is not enough and since you are the one who's claiming that they have had this particular number of fights you should be backing them up by listing out who exactly Luffy, Zoro and Sanji have fought too besides just listing the numbers, IMHO.

 

[Shasha23]

This information seems biased because it seems you have counted every battle (short and long drawn out fights) Zoro has had with enemies as a "fight" while in Sanji's case you haven't. Simply saying the numbers is not enough and since you are the one who's claiming that they have had this particular number of fights you should be backing them up by listing out who exactly Luffy, Zoro and Sanji have fought too besides just listing the numbers, IMHO.

Nope I did not, I only counted fights that ended with wins, I did not count fights that ended in losses, draws or no outcome, also fights like Luffy and Nami vs Cracker i did not count or even OHKO like Luffy vs Bellamy since I do not view them as fights to begin with

Ok lets do this then to clarify:

Luffy : Alvida, Mohji and Richie, Kuro, Don Krieg, Arlong, Crocodile, Enel, Blueno, Lucci, Hody, CC, Don Chinjao, Doffy, Katakuri
Zoro : Cabaji, Buchi and Shan, Hachi, Mr.1, Braham, Orm, T-Bone, Kaku, Ryuma, Hyouzou, Pica, Killer
Sanji : Kurrobi, Mr.2, Wanze, Jabra

Where here am I wrong, please point it out so I can correct my way of thinking.

 

[Knight of Stalwart Heart]

Nope I did not, I only counted fights that ended with wins, I did not count fights that ended in losses, draws or no outcome, also fights like Luffy and Nami vs Cracker i did not count or even OHKO like Luffy vs Bellamy since I do not view them as fights to begin with

Ok lets do this then to clarify:

Luffy : Alvida, Mohji and Richie, Kuro, Don Krieg, Arlong, Crocodile, Enel, Blueno, Lucci, Hody, CC, Don Chinjao, Doffy, Katakuri
Zoro : Cabaji, Buchi and Shan, Hachi, Mr.1, Braham, Orm, T-Bone, Kaku, Ryuma, Hyouzou, Pica, Killer
Sanji : Kurrobi, Mr.2, Wanze, Jabra

Where here am I wrong, please point it out so I can correct my way of thinking.

Luffy pretty much OHKO Alvida and that doesn't really count as fight. Besides, more importantly, Sanji did not even join the crew when Luffy fought Alvida, Mohji and Richie and Kuro IIRC, so, this places Sanji at a disadvantage and this is biased since we're talking about win count here. That leaves us with 11 battles of Luffy.

In Zoro's case, him fighting Cabaji, and Buchi and Shan doesn't count since Sanji wasn't part of the crew yet when he fought them.

Zoro's fight with T-Bone, Hyouzou shouldn't count either since they were OHKO. And I'm not sure if the fight with Killer would count as a real fight as well.

If you want to count them then you should also count Sanji winning against Sheepshead, Absalom as well.

That leaves us with 10 or 7 battles of Zoro depending on whether you want to count the fights with T-Bone, Hyozou and Killer.

And Sanji has either 6 or 3 real fights depending on whether you count Wanze, Absalom and Sheepshead.

That means that the final count is either [Luffy - 11,Zoro - 10,Sanji - 6] or [11,7,3].

But then again, you cannot guage where Sanji stands based on how many wins he has had since it would tell us nothing about his power. If Sanji had more opportunities to fight opponents that match his power level and rack up more wins (and those wins are something you count as fights) than Luffy then that would mean he's strongest of the crew and that's wrong.

not sure if you watch basketball, but following your logic, Klay Thompson definitely is not one of the feature offensive weapon, because he shoots less than steph curry and Kevin Durant.

*mind blown*

I don't watch Basketball but if you're saying that the number of battles one has nothing to do with their actual power level then I agree with it.

 

[Shasha23]

Luffy pretty much OHKO Alvida and that doesn't really count as fight. Besides, more importantly, Sanji did not even join the crew when Luffy fought Alvida, Mohji and Richie and Kuro IIRC, so, this places Sanji at a disadvantage and this is biased since we're talking about win count here. That leaves us with 11 battles of Luffy.

In Zoro's case, him fighting Cabaji, and Buchi and Shan doesn't count since Sanji wasn't part of the crew yet when he fought them.

Zoro's fight with T-Bone, Hyouzou shouldn't count either since they were OHKO. And I'm not sure if the fight with Killer would count as a real fight as well.

If you want to count them then you should also count Sanji winning against Sheepshead, Absalom as well.

That leaves us with 10 or 7 battles of Zoro depending on whether you want to count the fights with T-Bone, Hyozou and Killer.

And Sanji has either 6 or 3 real fights depending on whether you count Wanze, Absalom and Sheepshead.

That means that the final count is either [Luffy - 11,Zoro - 10,Sanji - 6] or [11,7,3].

But then again, you cannot guage where Sanji stands based on how many wins he has had since it would tell us nothing about his power. If Sanji had more opportunities to fight opponents that match his power level and rack up more wins (and those wins are something you count as fights) than Luffy then that would mean he's strongest of the crew and that's wrong.

Franky joined long after Sanji was in the crew and has the same amount of fights, Chopper joined after Sanji and has more fights than him, so the order of when they joined doesn't matter, if the character was relevant enough Oda would give him a fight.
Luffy and Zoro get a fight each every arc and if one of them didn't have a solid 1 v 1 the previous arc, then Oda would give them 2 fights the following arc.

Sanji didn't beat Sheepshead, Brook and Sanji beat him, dude even if you try nd spin it to the point where we only count fights when Sanji joined the crew, Luffy and Zoro would still have far more fights than him.
Sanji didn't beat Absalom, the match ended in a no outcome with Absalom running away with Nami, it was more a failure on Sanji's part than a win since he failed to save Nami, he even said the same.

As I said, Sanji didn't beat Sheepshead and Absalom, the same way he didn't Px7, Orz, Satori, Pearl, Px4 or Big Mum

We are talking about relevance, not just power standings, and as I said Sanji sits at 3rd or 4th!
Wishful thinking on the part of the fanbase still doesn't change the fact that Oda views Luffy and Zoro in higher regard and thus gives them more fights unlike the rest of the crew, or are you still going to say I'm wrong even though Luffy and Zoro have more fights, are part of the worst generation and are about to beat 2 yonko?

Its ok to love Sanji just don't love him for the wrong reasons, Sanji is not a fighting force like Luffy and Zoro and that's OK, Sanji is a strong fighter like many other Strawhat Pirates and his abilities have shown him to be above the rest, trying to downplay Luffy and Zoro to make Sanji look good is a bit silly on your part!

 

[Knight of Stalwart Heart]

Franky joined long after Sanji was in the crew and has the same amount of fights, Chopper joined after Sanji and has more fights than him, so the order of when they joined doesn't matter, if the character was relevant enough Oda would give him a fight.
Luffy and Zoro get a fight each every arc and if one of them didn't have a solid 1 v 1 the previous arc, then Oda would give them 2 fights the following arc.

Sanji didn't beat Sheepshead, Brook and Sanji beat him, dude even if you try nd spin it to the point where we only count fights when Sanji joined the crew, Luffy and Zoro would still have far more fights than him.
Sanji didn't beat Absalom, the match ended in a no outcome with Absalom running away with Nami, it was more a failure on Sanji's part than a win since he failed to save Nami, he even said the same.

As I said, Sanji didn't beat Sheepshead and Absalom, the same way he didn't Px7, Orz, Satori, Pearl, Px4 or Big Mum

We are talking about relevance, not just power standings, and as I said Sanji sits at 3rd or 4th!
Wishful thinking on the part of the fanbase still doesn't change the fact that Oda views Luffy and Zoro in higher regard and thus gives them more fights unlike the rest of the crew, or are you still going to say I'm wrong even though Luffy and Zoro have more fights, are part of the worst generation and are about to beat 2 yonko?

Its ok to love Sanji just don't love him for the wrong reasons, Sanji is not a fighting force like Luffy and Zoro and that's OK, Sanji is a strong fighter like many other Strawhat Pirates and his abilities have shown him to be above the rest, trying to downplay Luffy and Zoro to make Sanji look good is a bit silly on your part!

There's no spinning happening here, it's just biased information. And I do not deny that Zoro and Luffy would have more fights than Sanji even in the case where the information isn't biased.

Spoiler: Chapter 464

Absalom was clearly overpowered by Sanji and was defeated. In a battle of strength, Sanji was the clear winner here. It was only due to Oars that Absalom ran away with Nami.

I don't remember about Sheepshead and it doesn't really matter.

A character getting more fights doesn't mean that Oda thinks they are in a league of their own in terms of power levels. Or else what does "view in high regard" here even mean? And as I said, a character having more fights or more wins doesn't say anything about their power level.

An example of that would be :

If Sanji had more opportunities to fight opponents that match his power level and rack up more wins (and those wins are something you count as fights) than Luffy then that would mean he's strongest of the crew and that's wrong.

I haven't downplayed Zoro and Luffy at all.

 

[Shasha23]

There's no spinning happening here, it's just biased information. And I do not deny that Zoro and Luffy would have more fights than Sanji even in the case where the information isn't biased.

Spoiler: Chapter 464

Absalom was clearly overpowered by Sanji and was defeated. In a battle of strength, Sanji was the clear winner here. It was only due to Oars that Absalom ran away with Nami.

I don't remember about Sheepshead and it doesn't really matter.

A character getting more fights doesn't mean that Oda thinks they are in a league of their own in terms of power levels. Or else what does "view in high regard" here even mean? And as I said, a character having more fights or more wins doesn't say anything about their power level.

An example of that would be :

If Sanji had more opportunities to fight opponents that match his power level and rack up more wins (and those wins are something you count as fights) than Luffy then that would mean he's strongest of the crew and that's wrong.

I haven't downplayed Zoro and Luffy at all.

You are clearly trying to downplay Luffy and Zoro to push your Sanji agender, it is pretty obvious at this point its useless to try and deny it.

Sanji didn't KO Absalom, he even ran away with Nami, so in that exchange, Sanji failed at the thing he set out to do, he didn't win, he even said so himself why are you now trying to change what Sanji himself said to push your misguided agenda?


Oda clearly thinks that since he portrays Luffy and Zoro in a higher light than everyone else by giving them more fights, more panel time and more infamy, having more fights is one of the parts to include in deducing power level, case and point Luffy and Zoro have more fights and are without question head and shoulders above the rest or am I wrong?

Saying "if" more "opportunities" doesn't change anything, its just your wishful thinking, the story Oda is telling us clearly doesn't support your wishful thinking now does it?
Oda has given Luffy more fight and guess what he is the strongest!
Guess what again Oda gave Zoro more fights and what do you know he is strong as well.

So Oda clearly thinks that the stronger characters will be given more fights to show their strength while the weaker character will only fight sometimes, clearly, the story agrees with me and not your hypothesis!

 

[XXGenesis]

I wish Sanji fans had more credibility to their argument.

Majority of Sanji nah-sayers; Don’t like How Sanji has been handled since PTS. It’s not a misplaced dislike.

Oda has handled Sanji as a crappy bechmark for villains or a gag character, where it highly displeases his casual fans or any Fan.

The argument for Sanji being as strong as Zoro is Done! It has been for quite some time, Oda is constantly giving Sanji crappy portrayals all around the board, it’s hard to even get into his character at this point. From PH, being put aside during Dressrosa, Oda punk’d him on Zou sheepshead wasn’t K.O, he left the crew with Bege, WCI for Sanji, Wano lost all Pride & Ego dons a RS, Calls out to Robin as HEAT mentioned. Pathetically. Now a washed up Jack vs Sanji...

Oda is trying to give us a hard sell on Sanji being above Jimbei, smh. Cause he ain’t touching Zoro

 

[Shasha23]

@XXGenesis unfortunately, people don't want to accept it, the Strawhats are growing by the day and it looks like Oda is planning to model the Strahats like the Red Hair Pirates where the captain and vice-captain are in their own league with the other commanding officers being above average commander class fighters.
Its a pitty hardcore Sanji fans don't want to accept it and are now trying to downplay Luffy and Zoro in order to make Sanji look good forgetting that Sanji was never meant to a monster to begin with, he was always meant to be a cook who would kick anyone's ass who didn't respect food or tried to get close to Nami and Robin.

 

[Knight of Stalwart Heart]

You are clearly trying to downplay Luffy and Zoro to push your Sanji agender, it is pretty obvious at this point its useless to try and deny it.

Sanji didn't KO Absalom, he even ran away with Nami, so in that exchange, Sanji failed at the thing he set out to do, he didn't win, he even said so himself why are you now trying to change what Sanji himself said to push your misguided agenda?


Oda clearly thinks that since he portrays Luffy and Zoro in a higher light than everyone else by giving them more fights, more panel time and more infamy, having more fights is one of the parts to include in deducing power level, case and point Luffy and Zoro have more fights and are without question head and shoulders above the rest or am I wrong?

Saying "if" more "opportunities" doesn't change anything, its just your wishful thinking, the story Oda is telling us clearly doesn't support your wishful thinking now does it?
Oda has given Luffy more fight and guess what he is the strongest!
Guess what again Oda gave Zoro more fights and what do you know he is strong as well.

So Oda clearly thinks that the stronger characters will be given more fights to show their strength while the weaker character will only fight sometimes, clearly, the story agrees with me and not your hypothesis!

That's just a baseless accusation.

Sanji might've failed when it came to Nami but that is irrelevent when taking into account the outcome of battle of strengths which is the relevant part for us.

How many "actual 1v1 fights" did Jinbei even have? As far as I know he didn't even have as many Franky did. Does that mean Jinbei is weaker than Franky? While Franky may have had more panel time, Jinbei is more known than Franky. Over all, Jinbei should be weaker than Franky since he didn't have as many fights and panel time but is that really the case though? Panel time doesn't say anything about actual powerlevels but I do not disagree that infamy potentially can. Characters having more fights helps us in deducing their power levels since we get to see more about their power but the number of fights (or wins) they've had itself doesn't say anything about their power levels.

Luffy and Zoro have had more opportunities to fight "an actual 1v1" since the story allowed for it and therefore could rack up more wins. The number of wins themselves don't mean a thing again anyway.