One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[albertwv]

So what is a sky splitting attack?
At first I thought it was a clash of CoA, as we saw that it looks like to be 2 invisible attacks clash and create a fissure in the air. Later we found out that was Advanced Color of Armament (ACoA). As we've seen, the 3 admirals, Sentamaru, Rayleigh, and Hyogoro were able to use ACoA by creating an invisible barrier emission attack. So can they also create sky splitting attacks? Or is a sky splitting attack a mix of CoC with ACoC, which means Rayleigh should be able to do it since he has CoC. Also remember Oden had CoC and most likely ACoC, though we didnt see him use the invisible barrier emission attack.

Here are some examples:

 

[HereNThere]

The Strawhats have always grown ridiculously fast though it’s nothing new

It's not, but in this case, we could've used a but more on screen development for this particular confrontation. It's a Yonkou crew, so it'd have been nice if we came into it with a clear idea of where they stood before things went down.

So what is a sky splitting attack?

Probably just a clash between two highly/fully developed forms of AdCoC. It's likely dependant on one's level of CoC, which would explain why Yamato couldn't split the Sky/Heaven's against his pops while using it, but Luffy could.

 

[Dabanagaga]

the sky splitting technique is a clear sign of hiearchy. Pirate King, strongest pirate, strongest creature, the matriach of the strongest family and now, the golden boy to become pirate king, all of them have shown this technique, when clashing with each other....

ANd its not just a symbol of will. Its a symbol of materializing the will in a clash. CoC extends beyond physical, and using CoC in form of a physical attack is what is the advanced form. The clash and thereby splitting of heavens is a result of that, you cannot ignore that as a power level

Will in OP is related to strenght due to the Haki system (both mean the same but you get the point), just that each other isn't entirely dependant on each other (strenght and haki). Greatly influences each other, but doesn't go 1=1.

Secondly,
It is both physical and metaphysical, why haki can hurt the "essence", and it is the metaphysical aspect that splits the heavens.

Thirdly,
It is refered as "heaven split" in the manga, corrected from "sky splitting" by Jozu himself, therefore this phenom is due to metaphysical aspects.
If you do not know what it means - in summary, that their will bends the realm of the Gods, that god hood is in their hands, that they are in divine realm.
If it was just "strenght", "sky splitting" should be possible by brute strenght alone, which will never be the case.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 29, 2021, Original Post Date: Sep 29, 2021 ---

So what is a sky splitting attack?
At first I thought it was a clash of CoA, as we saw that it looks like to be 2 invisible attacks clash and create a fissure in the air. Later we found out that was Advanced Color of Armament (ACoA). As we've seen, the 3 admirals, Sentamaru, Rayleigh, and Hyogoro were able to use ACoA by creating an invisible barrier emission attack. So can they also create sky splitting attacks? Or is a sky splitting attack a mix of CoC with ACoC, which means Rayleigh should be able to do it since he has CoC. Also remember Oden had CoC and most likely ACoC, though we didnt see him use the invisible barrier emission attack.

Here are some examples:

I mean it is quite obvious, that it is due to CoC, as it only happened with Emperors and due to the very first description of how, if I am right, Jozu describded it as "The sky has...no..the heaven has been divided" or something lile that, which implies that the clash went into the divine realm.

I mean, Shanks and Whitebeard clashed without any real effort, just that their wills were flexed, otherwise there is no way that Moby Dick would still be standing.
WB and Roger weaponized their CoC, there was no clouds to begin with, and those shroomy clouds present got blasted away, alongside with the entire island being blasted with force from their clash, but their CoC was weaponized, so no wonder it happened as it did.

The same, effortless, flexed clash happened with BM and Kaido.

Now with Luffy and Kaido.

What seperates people "strenght" wise is Haki, which is just spirit, will, and the most prominent being the CoC, as it is feared by EVERYONE.
CoC will pretty much have divine properties, as even though only now in the story we see how weaponizing it has taken Luffy abnormaly higher strenght wise, and from what we've seen, CoC will not only affect the physical, but metaphysical/dimensional/untangable aspects like conjouring, time, diviness and etc.

Ending point ia that, from what I've seen, from the story being told, charcters who had done it, for me, it is clear that it is caused by CoC, and therefore, the Will's of the Gods, if one can say so.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 29, 2021 ---

It's not, but in this case, we could've used a but more on screen development for this particular confrontation. It's a Yonkou crew, so it'd have been nice if we came into it with a clear idea of where they stood before things went down.



Probably just a clash between two highly/fully developed forms of AdCoC. It's likely dependant on one's level of CoC, which would explain why Yamato couldn't split the Sky/Heaven's against his pops while using it, but Luffy could.

BM flex off with Kaido and Shanks flexx off with WB says that it is purely by the bulk of CoC in general.
One can argue that Oda hasn't planned about Haki at that time yet (WB f/off Shanks), pre timeskip in general, but from how OP is being told, I'd say that it's Oda's way of easying in the story and the plot, same with "power in OP".

 

[M3J]

The second we got the objective feat of Luffy splitting the sky, it stopped being illogical. Only 4 Yonko and 1 Pirate King have ever split the sky.. Now Luffy has.

That still means nothing if Luffy's still getting his ass handed to him. He may have the strength of an emperor, but he needs durability/ability to take hits and keep on fighting. Big Mom took a G3 and kick without injury, and then she took a G4 attack without flinching. Kaidou took hits after hits and still keeps coming back and fighting. Whitebeard got stabbed, shot at, and whatnot so many times and even had half his face burned off and still kept fighting.

 

[hokageji]

It is refered as "heaven split" in the manga, corrected from "sky splitting" by Jozu himself, therefore this phenom is due to metaphysical aspects.
If you do not know what it means - in summary, that their will bends the realm of the Gods, that god hood is in their hands, that they are in divine realm.
If it was just "strenght", "sky splitting" should be possible by brute strenght alone, which will never be the case.

you are trying to be way too technical just for the sake of your argument cos you know that OP doesn't explicitly state things technically.... If you are saying sky splitting can happen by brute force and that alone shouldn't be proof, i can accept your argument although it seems like an unnecessary one to make.. SUre, Mihawk could split it with his blade just by himself... but we aren't referring to such instances. We are referring to the instance of two advanced CoC clashes so strong that it splits the heavens or clouds as a result of that clash. Whether brute force can make it possible is irrelevant.. The point is only the strongest have shown to cause this canonically in the manga, and Luffy just did it... And we have a confirmation taht he used advanced CoC, which Kaido confirmed onlt a handful people in the world can use...
The fact that happened has to be used as a power level pointer

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 30, 2021, Original Post Date: Sep 30, 2021 ---

That still means nothing if Luffy's still getting his ass handed to him. He may have the strength of an emperor, but he needs durability/ability to take hits and keep on fighting. Big Mom took a G3 and kick without injury, and then she took a G4 attack without flinching. Kaidou took hits after hits and still keeps coming back and fighting. Whitebeard got stabbed, shot at, and whatnot so many times and even had half his face burned off and still kept fighting.

But the point is Luffy wont get his ass kicked in the same manner.. The clash has always been portrayed as two near equal rivals facing each other. When Luffy used advanced CoC on Kaido before, it didn't have the same effect. But this time, the split indicates these two as near equals. And the split causing the moon to come out of the clouds is symbolic that Luffy will win the fight.

 

[XXGenesis]

With latest pushback of..Luffy isn’t Yonko lv because he hasn’t defeated a Yonkou.

Despite Heaven splitting clash with Kaido; Which has only been done by a Yonkou vs Yonkou CoC clash..

Oda has complicated things. But from what I can understand there’s 2 levels before Yonkou…Yc1 & Yc1+……Both can be beaten down easy by a Yonkou & both can manage to hurt a Yonkou. But they’ll never win

 

[M3J]

But the point is Luffy wont get his ass kicked in the same manner.. The clash has always been portrayed as two near equal rivals facing each other. When Luffy used advanced CoC on Kaido before, it didn't have the same effect. But this time, the split indicates these two as near equals. And the split causing the moon to come out of the clouds is symbolic that Luffy will win the fight.

It is way too early to tell though, especially if Luffy does need significant amount of help beating Kaidou.

 

[Pirate Queen]

It is way too early to tell though, especially if Luffy does need significant amount of help beating Kaidou.

Okay, who do you think is capable of helping Luffy now?

 

[john ellis]

To be fair, luffy has been hit by how many of Kaido attacks now and still be left standing? He took on 100’s of Beast pirates who all probably range 80-200k bounties, took on ulti and page one briefly. It’s safe to say luffy has some pretty dumb durability even if he needed short rests between certain outcomes.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Okay, who do you think is capable of helping Luffy now?

If Oda wants help for Luffy, it's not the hardest thing to do.

Jinbe, Marco, Denjiro, Kawamatsu are all there without match ups.
Then there is the theory of Hawkins using his card on Luffy
X Drake is unaccounted for

Even a nearly dead Kinemon was able to stall Kaido briefly, stab him and give an window of opportunity to let Momo escape. So yes, these characters can do a lot more to help Luffy.

 

[Fox666]

He took on 100’s of Beast pirates who all probably range 80-200k bounties

?

I think you are vastly overestimating these fodder...

 

[M3J]

Yamato and Big Mom. But also, I'm not saying Luffy needing help means he's not there yet, it depends on a lot of things. If the help isn't that much, then yeah. I mean, the main reason why there are four emperors is because none of them were or are strong enough to beat each other without suffering heavy losses, and having help in winning wouldn't diminish their power.

 

[kkck]

I mean, logic flew out the window the moment the 5 Supernova clashed with Big Mom and Kaido and managed to hold their own despite nothing indicating that they'd be able too.

IMO, they had no business doing as well as they did and most should be dead. Especially when we consider the full repitoire of both Yonkou.

Yet, here we are.

They not only survived, but Luffy is now splitting the sky, which Oda has already shown is a feat that's only capable by those at the highest point of the world, the Yonkou and Roger. Can you say his growth is illogical? Sure. But it's hard to deny what Oda is alluding too with the scene.

It all comes down to the fact that when the arc started luffy lowered the manga's difficulty to easy. The war is still against a yonko so it's not exactly an easy fight but overall there has been little tension in the story and the battles fought seem mostly way easier than they had any right to be. Outside of luffy the only strawhat that has shown some manner of strength progression is zoro. And even then his only solo fight before king was a slightly nerfed killer and before that pica... And then thanks to haki plot magic he is duking it out evenly with king. Even what zoro has already shown puts him easily on the same tier as any current YC1 (or at least king and katakuri anyways) and he hasn't even won the fight. So zoro pretty much skiped the doflamingos, crackers and queens of the world tier wise.

And if that's not bad enough we have sanji's rather imminent powerup that via vinsmoke plot jutsu will take him from being actual trash to people weaker than queen to stronger than queen. And to make that straight up insulting this will probably happen within two chapters since oda is barely giving anyone any time in the story. And of course franky defeated sasaki because why not and with robin we got to see the results of her 2 year training some 420 chapters AFTER she got said results. Let alone the sheer absurdity of this being her... second-ish fight in the new world.

Honestly, I want a redo of the arc. This war should have been NG+ 7 amounts of difficulty and instead it was closer to... dunno, stuff that comes with easy mode. The arc should have been an utter nightmare for luffy and co, every step should have been painful given the scale of this war. The force the gang is up against is essentially comparable to the force whitebeard took to marineford to duke it out with the bulk of the marine's forces. Instead what we got is random powerups and kaido's weak ass subordinates.

 

[john ellis]

?

I think you are vastly overestimating these fodder...

Gifters are likely strong enough to captain pirate ships in paradise, sure there fodder to current luffy, but there by no means weak pirates in the grand scheme of things

 

[hokageji]

It is way too early to tell though, especially if Luffy does need significant amount of help beating Kaidou.

I think he doesn't need help beyond this point.... All of Luffy's battles have had assists and we've accepted the win and concluded his strength level above the fallen. Its no different in Kaido's case... Luffy got helps and assist to the point where he can level up to Kaido and now beat him.... Dont expect any from this point

 

[albertwv]

It all comes down to the fact that when the arc started luffy lowered the manga's difficulty to easy. The war is still against a yonko so it's not exactly an easy fight but overall there has been little tension in the story and the battles fought seem mostly way easier than they had any right to be. Outside of luffy the only strawhat that has shown some manner of strength progression is zoro. And even then his only solo fight before king was a slightly nerfed killer and before that pica... And then thanks to haki plot magic he is duking it out evenly with king. Even what zoro has already shown puts him easily on the same tier as any current YC1 (or at least king and katakuri anyways) and he hasn't even won the fight. So zoro pretty much skiped the doflamingos, crackers and queens of the world tier wise.

And if that's not bad enough we have sanji's rather imminent powerup that via vinsmoke plot jutsu will take him from being actual trash to people weaker than queen to stronger than queen. And to make that straight up insulting this will probably happen within two chapters since oda is barely giving anyone any time in the story. And of course franky defeated sasaki because why not and with robin we got to see the results of her 2 year training some 420 chapters AFTER she got said results. Let alone the sheer absurdity of this being her... second-ish fight in the new world.

Honestly, I want a redo of the arc. This war should have been NG+ 7 amounts of difficulty and instead it was closer to... dunno, stuff that comes with easy mode. The arc should have been an utter nightmare for luffy and co, every step should have been painful given the scale of this war. The force the gang is up against is essentially comparable to the force whitebeard took to marineford to duke it out with the bulk of the marine's forces. Instead what we got is random powerups and kaido's weak ass subordinates.

Yes thank you! At least someone else agrees! It's like all the SHs got a magical power up with no steady power progession. This is why the New World has been less than entertaining for me. Yes, I love how Luffy got all the attention, he actually went through power levels, Doffy<Cracker<Kata and now a huge one Kaido. But no other SH outside of Zolo had any action or even was pushed to their limits and shown us what they were really capable of after their 2 year training. I let Fishman Island pass, since the Fishmen were weak, but Dressrosa should have the been the arc where the whole crew showed off their new skills and were pushed near their limits. Instead we got new characters.

 

[GL_Nova]

Yeah, and then to see Luffy get knocked off the floating land next chapter, although it's not like we saw what caused it. Might not have been Kaidou's superior power, but other things in mix as well, like Luffy being tricked.


Because people need logic, and claiming he's Yonkou level is illogical.

That sounds dumb. The only people who’ve been able to accomplish this are Yonko, and the literal pirate king. It’s been a sign of power literally every single time that it’s happened. Throughout the entire manga, over the last 20 years the 3 times we’ve seen this has been to signal a clash between the top powers in this world. The very pinnacle of OP. In fact, the new no touching aspect was introduced, BY THE FORMER PIRARE KING AND THE MAN WHO WAS HIS MAIN RIVAL at the PRIME of their power. So, logically speaking, the fact that a character is clashing with a Yonko and creating this same Yonko effect, this effect Oda has reserved for the very top, should automatically be an indicator that this character is on this level. Which is only logical based on what Oda has portrayed in his story these last 20 YEARS.

Now suddenly it’s no longer able to signal the same thing. Now that the main character is accomplishing this by clashing with a Yonko, during the war he picked to finally try and take a Yonko down. His goal through the last several arcs, it no longer shows this? What proof suggests that Oda has suddenly abandoned the power scaling he himself created? What other clue makes it more logical that this is a new development and his attempt to create a brand new power dynamic to contradict what he has taken 20 years to create. That seems like nothing more than moving the goal post because you don’t want Luffy to have leveled up. It seems like your own issue with accepting Oda has been quite clear in his opinion of how close to the end game we’ve reached and how much longer the manga has left. Your inability to accept that doesn’t make ignoring this natural progression or the literal name do the chapter being turning point logical.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

In regards to Yamato strength and people saying that they have an advantage cause of experience fighting kaido for 20 years
I get it but at the same time , kaido fighting style is very simple , hard hits and speed attacks
Yamato raw stats simply translate well
It’s simply trial by fire fighting and training by kaido

 

[Pirate Queen]

In regards to Yamato strength and people saying that they have an advantage cause of experience fighting kaido for 20 years
I get it but at the same time , kaido fighting style is very simple , hard hits and speed attacks
Yamato raw stats simply translate well
It’s simply trial by fire fighting and training by kaido

So you don't think she has ANY advantage having fought Kaido consistently over 2 decades?

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

So you don't think she has ANY advantage having fought Kaido consistently over 2 decades?

I mean somewhat but it’s a pretty simple style of fighting
Yamato’s style just translates well , she was casually tying with gear 2 and 3 luffy and has shown very advanced haki techniques
And ate a barrage of king haki coating attack from kaido