One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[M3J]

Which interactions?

 

[Dabanagaga]

When you think about it, if Jozu's DF ability can be passed by some novice who just so happens to use COA, that kinda sounds redundant.
So COA bypasses DF, then Chopper/Franky should be dead, he got hit by Luffy's Elephant Gun, regardless his Monster point, his DF was bypassed. Kinda seems redundant. COA just seems to be an ability to bypass CERTAIN characteristics, not base stat improovments.
And for Luffy, if you can to say that blunt force can not damage him, then I wonder what would happen if he got hit by Kings Punch point blank, as it seems to be completely brute strenght move, would he laugh it off or would he be knocked the fuck out.
But Oda does not completely go as it should be , as Enel v Luffy prooves that.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 28, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 28, 2018 ---

Also, if you think about it, someone who could clout themselves in haki, would completely ignore Barto's DF, as COA should bypass DF's abilities pretty much, as some say, and his DF is good against only those, who can not use haki. The more you think about it, the more you see how this "COA bypasses DF's abilities" is redundant.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Seriously I don't understand how some people comprehend their One Piece. It's as if they read/watch with their butts.

First @Shasha23, now @eefrit... Understanding how Haki works seems to be your biggest problem.
Going back to Luffy's training pre-time skip, Raleigh explained to him that with regard to COA, it:
1. Increases your attack power (with or without hardening) compared to one who lacks it. Hence, the demonstration with the huge elephant.

2. It takes away the advantage of logia/logia-like intangibility (again, with or without hardening)

3. When concentrated, it can be seen in the form of a black armour around the area it's used (hardening). For example; arm, leg, torso, head, full body, sword string, bisento, staff, mochi... you name it.
And like an armour it shields the object of use from damage – of which depends on the opponent's strength to bypass it or a superior COA.

With regard to (1), Luffy on his return to Sabaody demonstrated this when he took out the PX-0 (or was it PX-1) while in gear second with haki - without hardening causing the robot to explode.

(2) is self explanatory

And with (3), Oda demonstrates it a lot when it comes to – at the very least – non fodder characters.


So the deal with beating a diamond df user would first depend on if they were strong in the first place or not, and if they possess Haki (COA only) or not.
Now assuming the df user has both (strength of at least Katakuri level and COA as well), then the scenarios for our challenger (no df) plays out like this:

1) If our challenger is hakiless and has the strength of Bellamy, he'll be beaten easily by the diamond user without using haki nor his df.

2) If our challenger has haki and strength of Bellamy, he'll be beaten by the diamond user without needing to resort to Haki nor df.

3) If our challenger possess the strength and haki of Doffy, he'll be beaten by the df user requiring only his diamond df.

5) If our challenger possess the strength and haki of G4 Luffy, he'll most likely be beaten by the df user using his df and haki.

6) If our challenger also possess the strength and Haki of Katakuri he'll still be beaten by the df user requiring both his Haki and df.

7) Now if our challenger has the strength of big mom and haki of Katakuri, he'll probably be able to match – if not defeat – the diamond user's Katakuri level of strength and CoA.

8) But with our challenger having both Big Mom's strength and CoA, he'll definitely defeat the diamond user with strength and CoA of Katakuri.

Bottom line is it all depends on how much hardness the diamond df grants it's user without resorting to their individual strength.

If it already grants him the hardness of Doffy's Haki, then it'll take a Haki attack of at least above Doffy level to damage him (and that is without the diamond user's Haki).


Until we get more info and screentime regarding the fruit. All we can do is speculate

 

[King Moe]

I was not wrong because I never claimed that Zoro would defeat Hawkins with easy. I said if they were to fight to the death Zoro would definitely win.

What is blocking the possibility of Zoro fighting Kaido and injuring him eventually? I never said Zoro would beat Kaido in 1vs1. Luffy may be as well weaker than Zoro at this point.

He went into pursuit after SHs and just lost one life so not only he failed to stop them from escaping but also lost another life in the process, his face shows that he is displeased and annoyed. Hawkins wanted to stop them, they wanted to escape. Who succeeded? Its a win for the escape team.

Zoro broke/lost swords before without losing, it may hurt his pride as swordsman but thats only thing that may be hurting. If you paid attention so far, plot was nerfing Zoro in every second arc since he was too strong. He may or may not get a new sword, its a possibility not a must scenario.

Hawkins in regards to Zoro is completely irrelevant at this point as they had just one clash. There first has to be a proper fight to judge how they compare and like i said, the hype has gone up since that moment as Zoro easily handled a Supernova captain with a broken ability and while using just 2 swords.

It's very possible that he currently is on top among all Supernovas, swordsmen are extremely dangerous. The only challenge may be Kidd since his magnetic abilities affect Zoro's swords but Zoro isnt stopped that easily. If you want to be realistic, the only Supernova that could defend against Zoro properly are Law and Killer since they use swords as well but their swordsmanship skills are surely not on Zoro's level.

@nik87, you did claim that, we can look back on the chapter before Hawkins fought them and you was spouting Zoro will beat him down easy. Idk about to the death anymore since Hawkins got more lives to spare and create than Zoro can damage him. he already damage him with one of his effortless moves and that wasn't his full power yet. You got to learn to stop underestimating others, dude.

Zero, if he one-shot Luffy, Zoro getting that one-shot bro. He was never stronger and by evidence by Oda lately, he not even at his lvl or have anything to match G4. Your trying to hard that doesn't exist right now, dude. Luffy is much stronger than him as he be taking more boss characters left and right unlike Zoro getting weaker ones like Hody, Monet, and Pica. No comparison to opponents, they aren't the same lvl to Luffy's opponents. Luffy is stronger than him end of the day.

By Cards, not by his own doing. He always do things by cards, not because he was trying hard. Look into the chapter and see how he was expressionless even when they escape which was because he let them due to cards again. Nah, it's not a win for Zoro in the fight, no difference dude.

Still counts as a lost and he will lose to have his sword broken which still hurts his pride especially he was trained by the WORLD'S GREATEST SWORDSMAN (Emphasizing, not yelling), Mihawk. If Mihawk was there, you think that be ok especially he taught him Haki to not let his blades be broken again? Sorry, but that be a lost badly on not only him, but his pride as a swordsman, like it or not. Nah, it was not nerfing him, that is just his power atm, bro. Your too delusional and trying to overhype that is underhype after what Hawkins did to him. We got more important stuff right now than Zoro.

Nah, everyone was making fun of him for the fight, so no the hype didn't gone up, just diverse especially on the bad side for Zoro especially Zoro fans were spouting "Watch Zoro fight someone higher up and defeat them with ease as well take names and cause havoc" which so far at the moment, been very lackluster than everyone predicted, sorry bro.

Nah, Luffy, Kidd, Law, even Urouge can decked him down as well Hawkins prove and we don't even know about Drake and Apoo, but already feeling they are stronger than they look like Hawkins. Your underestimating them and trying to make Zoro God compare to them when he isn't. Until he takes down someone notably and strong, we can talk, but until then he is not touching them. Also your facts make no sense as it won't take Law to cut him if he is in his room and Kidd take his swords and game over as the man never fight much bare-handed even with Haki by his side which Kidd probably has too. Lets not forget Luffy at full power and Hawkins too as well Urouge who at least defeated a Sweet Commander and the mysteries of Drake and Apoo.

Zoro right now is under them or at least equal to Drake and Apoo as we don't know what they could do again, but until more feats are shown instead of more excuses and ass-handed to him clearly by Oda, you can't put him on top.

 

[Blackjesusjrf]

Here's a new thought. Of the three types of haki, observation haki is the most valuable and powerful. Katakuri's ability to see the future is pretty much broken to the point where only people with the same ability can compete with him. But seeing what Oda did with katakuri makes me wonder what Coby could possibly do in the future and how strong he can become. Coby can literally hear people's thoughts, I feel he can train his observation haki to the point where he never gets hit, Similar to katakuri.

 

[nik87]

@M3J @hokageji @Lexusflame
Regarding Luffy/Zoro/Mihawk vs Big Mom...
I think both Luffy and Zoro are unable to scratch Big Mom due to her incredible CoA, the gap with Kaido and Big Mom is just too big.
However, I do think that Zoro is closer to inflicting damage to BM than Luffy is, due to focused pressure on small area and the fact that its a sharp weapon compared to flat surface of Luffy's fist pressuring large area of BM's body.

If Zoro was able to cut Big Mom, which I think Mihawk is able to, then she would fight with her sword as well. All 4 original Yonko's use a weapon as well so they wont face weapons directly with their bodies.

If we think back of fight against zombie Oars, the only things that inflicted considerable damage were Brook piercing his shoulder, Zoro cutting his stomach and Luffy crushing his spine.
It also depends how deep the cut from a swordsman would be on BM, if its same as Shutenmaru's cut on Jack then it has no effect but same scenario would happen with a punch as well. I dont think there is a punch so strong in One Piece world to significantly injure a fresh Big Mom. On the other hand, i think Mihawk and Shanks would injure her with swords but she would counter it with sword as well.

 

[Pirate Queen]

@M3J @hokageji @Lexusflame
Regarding Luffy/Zoro/Mihawk vs Big Mom...
I think both Luffy and Zoro are unable to scratch Big Mom due to her incredible CoA, the gap with Kaido and Big Mom is just too big.
However, I do think that Zoro is closer to inflicting damage to BM than Luffy is, due to focused pressure on small area and the fact that its a sharp weapon compared to flat surface of Luffy's fist pressuring large area of BM's body.

If Zoro was able to cut Big Mom, which I think Mihawk is able to, then she would fight with her sword as well. All 4 original Yonko's use a weapon as well so they wont face weapons directly with their bodies.

If we think back of fight against zombie Oars, the only things that inflicted considerable damage were Brook piercing his shoulder, Zoro cutting his stomach and Luffy crushing his spine.
It also depends how deep the cut from a swordsman would be on BM, if its same as Shutenmaru's cut on Jack then it has no effect but same scenario would happen with a punch as well. I dont think there is a punch so strong in One Piece world to significantly injure a fresh Big Mom. On the other hand, i think Mihawk and Shanks would injure her with swords but she would counter it with sword as well.

Unless we understand the ROOT of her invulnerability, you cannot say ANY type of external damage can harm a fully healthy BM. You can't even debate this.

We know Poison MAY effect BM so internal damage is a possibility and between Blunt and Slashing damage, blunt force SHOULD be more effective.

You can say you think BM has CoA hard enough to mimicking invulnerability but something debunks that.

BM felt it was necessary to use Hardening Haki against G4 Luffy. Now... WHY would she do that? Clearly Gear 4 would have put out enough force for her to think that she had no choice but to defend with CoA Hardening Haki. 2 options, she would have been blown away or hurt.

So this is the thing. Do any of you think Zoro has an attack power equal to Gear 4th Luffy?

I personally do. So I can see BM blocking with haki against Zoro's strongest attack.

In a 1 v 1 slashing or blunt would have an equal damage output but distribution would be different. In terms of effectiveness, blunt over slashing.

 

[hokageji]

think both Luffy and Zoro are unable to scratch Big Mom due to her incredible CoA, the gap with Kaido and Big Mom is just too big.

Firstly, saying the gap between Kaido and Big Mom is too big is baseless. You would be right in assuming Kaido > Big Mom, purely with his epithet but not saying the gap between them is large.
So whatever technique Kaido used (i suspect conqueror's haki embedded on weapon / body) Mama is capable of using the same. Too big is just unfair...

See how Luffy deflates and loses energy in similar manner to when Kaido attacks, of course here Mama isnt attacking but blocking.

If Zoro was able to cut Big Mom, which I think Mihawk is able to, then she would fight with her sword as well. All 4 original Yonko's use a weapon as well so they wont face weapons directly with their bodies.

First of all, Big Mom's swordsmen ship is similar to the giants. So assuming that when Zoro or Mihawk slice her, she isnt going to stand around. Her sword clash is already deadlier than existing Zoros....

Second thing is understanding the difference between hardness and toughness..... Diamond is a brittle stone.... Dont believe me? Take a hammer and hit one on diamond, it will crumble like dust.... Its physical structure is similar to glass so the more hard a substance is, its likely to be brittle as well.

Of course, physics has never mattered in One Piece so we wont see Baby5 turning into a hammer and squashing Josu into bits, but i just wanted to mention this about hardness and the argument of the blade and cut.
Now speaking in One Piece terms, Big Mama's skin is extremely impenetrable. Using haki increases that. So for Zoro to be able scratch or even cut her, his blade has to be harder than her when she's using haki. So it all comes down to haki and at this point, there is no proof that Zoro's haki is more superior's to Luffy.

 

[nik87]

@Lexusflame I think source of her hardness is her CoA, she may be the best CoA user in entire OP world, would explain vulnerability when she loses it mentally.

@hokageji The gap is too big with Luffy/Zoro vs BM/Kaido, i didnt mean between Kaido and BM.
Also i agree about her not standing around if Zoro or Mihawk can cut her, that was my point as well. Her sword play may not be as good as Mihawk's but the force behind her slashes probably is above Mihawk's.

 

[Pirate Queen]

@Lexusflame I think source of her hardness is her CoA, she may be the best CoA user in entire OP world, would explain vulnerability when she loses it mentally.

@hokageji The gap is too big with Luffy/Zoro vs BM/Kaido, i didnt mean between Kaido and BM.
Also i agree about her not standing around if Zoro or Mihawk can cut her, that was my point as well. Her sword play may not be as good as Mihawk's but the force behind her slashes probably is above Mihawk's.

She was born with her invulnerability wasn't she? She killed those giant leads when she was a small child and without a scratch on her.

You cant be born with CoA Haki, or at least nothing implies it.

Unless you think BM developed Haki when she was a child and mastered it to a massive degree before she killed the Giants. She was pretty naive tho.

What do you think?

 

[nik87]

She was born with her invulnerability wasn't she? She killed those giant leads when she was a small child and without a scratch on her.

You cant be born with CoA Haki, or at least nothing implies it.

Unless you think BM developed Haki when she was a child and mastered it to a massive degree before she killed the Giants. She was pretty naive tho.

What do you think?

It's hard to tell and we gotta wait for more information about it.
Mental breakdown resulting in knees bleeding just from falling on her knees and her being tough at young age without CoA is just weird.
I can only guess that maybe she always had basic CoA since hardening wasnt shown at her young age but nothing implied that she used basic CoA even unconsciously...

 

[hokageji]

It's hard to tell and we gotta wait for more information about it.
Mental breakdown resulting in knees bleeding just from falling on her knees and her being tough at young age with CoA is just weird.
I can only guess that maybe she always had basic CoA since hardening wasnt shown at her young age but nothing implied that she used basic CoA even unconsciously...

Need to read some chapters for CoA, but maybe its not the case of CoA and just the case of her skin naturally being as hard as it is.

 

[M3J]

Here's a new thought. Of the three types of haki, observation haki is the most valuable and powerful. Katakuri's ability to see the future is pretty much broken to the point where only people with the same ability can compete with him. But seeing what Oda did with katakuri makes me wonder what Coby could possibly do in the future and how strong he can become. Coby can literally hear people's thoughts, I feel he can train his observation haki to the point where he never gets hit, Similar to katakuri.

It's not broken though, I think Armament can balance it out if the user's hardening gives him great enough defense to withstand Katakuri's attacks.

I thought Coby could only sense feelings?

@M3J @hokageji @Lexusflame
Regarding Luffy/Zoro/Mihawk vs Big Mom...
I think both Luffy and Zoro are unable to scratch Big Mom due to her incredible CoA, the gap with Kaido and Big Mom is just too big.
However, I do think that Zoro is closer to inflicting damage to BM than Luffy is, due to focused pressure on small area and the fact that its a sharp weapon compared to flat surface of Luffy's fist pressuring large area of BM's body.

If Zoro was able to cut Big Mom, which I think Mihawk is able to, then she would fight with her sword as well. All 4 original Yonko's use a weapon as well so they wont face weapons directly with their bodies.

If we think back of fight against zombie Oars, the only things that inflicted considerable damage were Brook piercing his shoulder, Zoro cutting his stomach and Luffy crushing his spine.
It also depends how deep the cut from a swordsman would be on BM, if its same as Shutenmaru's cut on Jack then it has no effect but same scenario would happen with a punch as well. I dont think there is a punch so strong in One Piece world to significantly injure a fresh Big Mom. On the other hand, i think Mihawk and Shanks would injure her with swords but she would counter it with sword as well.

Exactly, and the attacks work differently. Zoro being able to hurt Big Mom with a weapon doesn't automatically make him stronger than Luffy, it's only if he uses his fist and hurts her that'd determine it.

but again, all assumptions.

She was born with her invulnerability wasn't she? She killed those giant leads when she was a small child and without a scratch on her.

You cant be born with CoA Haki, or at least nothing implies it.

Unless you think BM developed Haki when she was a child and mastered it to a massive degree before she killed the Giants. She was pretty naive tho.

What do you think?

What if her knees/legs are her weak spots, and no one knew/realized this before? They could assume it's related to Carmel's picture because she was traumatized and hurt herself.

Of course, this theory is blown into waters if the others did go after her legs during the arc, and she felt nothing.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

how good do you think queens' assassins would be?
I think at best they would be something like germa tiers.

 

[Pirate Queen]

how good do you think queens' assassins would be?
I think at best they would be something like germa tiers.

What the heck is Germa Tier lol

The clone soldiers? Judge? Niji?

Personally I think they will be Queens personal Headliners. Not strong enough to cause Sanji too much trouble. mid-diff maybe?

A popular rumor is that Apoo is Queen's personal Headliner and that is a rumor I can get behind. If that's the case it will be a high diff fight for Sanji

Irony on assassins being called on a Germa Prince tho hahaha

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

What the heck is Germa Tier lol

The clone soldiers? Judge? Niji?

Personally I think they will be Queens personal Headliners. Not strong enough to cause Sanji too much trouble. mid-diff maybe?

A popular rumor is that Apoo is Queen's personal Headliner and that is a rumor I can get behind. If that's the case it will be a high diff fight for Sanji

Irony on assassins being called on a Germa Prince tho hahaha

i meant, something like ichiji and niji tier.

 

[Pirate Queen]

i meant, something like ichiji and niji tier.

I think it's too early for Raid Suit Sanji so if they are Ichiji or Niji equivalents I can he a very hard fought battle for Sanji.

Odds are better that Sanji will face Queen at some point. I'm thinking Raid Suit is reserved for that match up

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

I think it's too early for Raid Suit Sanji so if they are Ichiji or Niji equivalents I can he a very hard fought battle for Sanji.

Odds are better that Sanji will face Queen at some point. I'm thinking Raid Suit is reserved for that match up

which is why i said at best lol.

I was expecting the assassins to not just be another fodders though

 

[Pirate Queen]

which is why i said at best lol.

I was expecting the assassins to not just be another fodders though

Definitely not fodder if they are a Yonko Commanders Assassin. I agree

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Definitely not fodder if they are a Yonko Commanders Assassin. I agree

well most of the yonkou headliners got one-shotted