One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[nik87]

It's too bad that Smoker became such a non-threat in post-skip era with CoA present.
I always liked his character and he is probably the Marine character with most screen time and encounters with Strawhats.
From great Marine captain with logia advantage to a hype tool for Vergo with a disadvantage...
It's a shame Smoker's growth is not like Coby's, he deserves it. He had the chance to become what Garp was for Roger.
I hope Oda gives him a chance to make up for the bad performance against Vergo.

 

[hokageji]

@nik87
I 100% agree..... But i think we will see a new and improved Smoker.... While Coby is likely going to become Garp like, Smoker might become Sengoku like atleast.

 

[M3J]

i just find it uninteresting because they are the only characters like that. We saw that White Beard could be hurt by fucking Squadro, lol. I prefer protagonists and enemies who are a little more vulnerable. Blackbeard is a great example. He not only gets hurt, he gets hurt more than a normal person! Now that is interesting. Or Shanks, who is regular human size, and lost an arm! And he's still a Yonko! That is interesting. But Big Mom and Kaido? "Giant and iron like skin, cannot be hurt unless x, y and z conditions are met". That to me, at least for now, is boring.

To be fair, Big Mom got hurt by the ground (twice apparently), and Kaidou did feel some blows from Luffy. Marco has said that if Whitebeard wasn't sick, he'd have dodged the attack from Squard even with the trust he has in him.

Don't forget Blackbeard's arrogance. It's part of what got him hurt on more than one occasion, because he thought he was untouchable.

Nah its just the Yonkousystem dude.

Whitebeard/Blackbeard = strongest DF user
Kaido = strongest attack
Big Mom = strongest Def
Shanks = strongest Haki

Kaidou did get hurt by Luffy, but it wasnt nearly enough. So his Def is under BM.
BM did punch Luffy, which he blocked... but with Kaidou... instant KO.

Whitebeard seems to be more than just his devil fruit though. I've yet to read anyone say Whitebeard is nothing without his devil fruit whereas he criticized Blackbeard for depending on his fruit too much.

We do know the three things Whitebeard, Kaidou, and Big Mom have in common: insane defense/durability. Whitebeard and Shanks also have immense CoC as well, to the point that they cracked ships with it. Blackbeard's advantages are in his two devil fruits and powerful crew members.

It's too bad that Smoker became such a non-threat in post-skip era with CoA present.
I always liked his character and he is probably the Marine character with most screen time and encounters with Strawhats.
From great Marine captain with logia advantage to a hype tool for Vergo with a disadvantage...
It's a shame Smoker's growth is not like Coby's, he deserves it. He had the chance to become what Garp was for Roger.
I hope Oda gives him a chance to make up for the bad performance against Vergo.

What confuses me is that I thought Smoker let himself get beaten so Law could take his heart back from Vergo.

 

[Admiral Teach]

It would please me to know end if Zoro and Sanji were actually weaker than we perceive them, being around weaker Flying Fighter level, and then progressively grew stronger battling respective opponents until they could roughly equal a Commander in battle.

I'm talking Namek style growth, where the saiyens were weakened but grew after each defeat or tough battle where they sustained sufficient damage. It could happen. Wano has a long time table and we could see both Zoro and Sanji increasing their strength incrementally as they go as they are challenged and learn new techniques to adapt and such. Zoro could learn a few things maybe from samurai.

Alas. I honestly believe Oda has decided to put Zoro on level roughly with his master, and that he will effortless overpower enemies or more or less overwhelm them despite a few cuts until Mihawk or an Admiral. Not sure why, but I just feel like he's chilling out not bothering. It is boring as heck. So far, nothing has been done to alleviate this problem.

And that goes for Sanji too, tbh. No steady improvement. Then again, Luffy is getting VERY good power-ups and steady improvement. he's going through basic (or not so basic given seastone) physical training to overall increase his stats. And before that he had a desperate CoO enhancing training with Katakuri and before that an assisted stamina match with Cracker. (Which he wouldn't have won without Nami making the crackers edible. Serously, that dude can just make an army by clapping his hands. How is that not stronger than sticky goo? Ok, maybe not, since we all know the only thing stopping Kata from suffocating everyone is the same reason Robin is not snapping every non-Logia upper cervical vertebrae. Plot and censorship. But still...)

Anyway, Luffy's fights have thus far impressed me greatly. The match with Doffy was awesome, the match with Cracker had me cheering and I loved how Nami helped along.

Katakuri fight was unecessary and I still don't get why Oda did not just change the plot so Luffy was forced to fight him. But it was still cool. Kaido went worse for Luffy than expected, but still good.

It is Zoro and Sanji that now are in trouble simply because they have been out of the spotlight. And the rest of the SH are worse, bar maybe Ussop, who got his golden moment saving everyone from the horror child. Oda had better keep that damn Mugiwara in jail! He's been hogging too much time. I want to see Zoro gasping in desperation! Sanji sweating in near panic! And then see them overcome their foes!

Who else wants a Daz Bones 2.0 style match? Or a Pearl 2.0 (I can't recall Sanji ever having a drawn out struggle. He either curb-stomps his foes or fails to win.)

 

[Kato756]

There isn´t much else to say. We saw his old-age feats.
And I know that the top tier power discussion is a hot one in one piece, but amongst all the Admiral/Yonkou discussion, I never see anyone talking about Prime Rayleigh.
Sure, as of now we have no sure way to know it, but its always fun to speculate.

 

[thedude]

To be fair, Big Mom got hurt by the ground (twice apparently), and Kaidou did feel some blows from Luffy. Marco has said that if Whitebeard wasn't sick, he'd have dodged the attack from Squard even with the trust he has in him.

Don't forget Blackbeard's arrogance. It's part of what got him hurt on more than one occasion, because he thought he was untouchable.

Whitebeard seems to be more than just his devil fruit though. I've yet to read anyone say Whitebeard is nothing without his devil fruit whereas he criticized Blackbeard for depending on his fruit too much.

We do know the three things Whitebeard, Kaidou, and Big Mom have in common: insane defense/durability. Whitebeard and Shanks also have immense CoC as well, to the point that they cracked ships with it. Blackbeard's advantages are in his two devil fruits and powerful crew members.


What confuses me is that I thought Smoker let himself get beaten so Law could take his heart back from Vergo.

I also think Blackbeard is far more than his devil fruit. Yes he is arrogant, but he did fight and scar Shanks BEFORE he had a DF. That shows that on his own, he is a beast.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 11, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 11, 2019 ---

It is Zoro and Sanji that now are in trouble simply because they have been out of the spotlight. And the rest of the SH are worse, bar maybe Ussop, who got his golden moment saving everyone from the horror child. Oda had better keep that damn Mugiwara in jail! He's been hogging too much time. I want to see Zoro gasping in desperation! Sanji sweating in near panic! And then see them overcome their foes!

Who else wants a Daz Bones 2.0 style match? Or a Pearl 2.0 (I can't recall Sanji ever having a drawn out struggle. He either curb-stomps his foes or fails to win.)

Absolutely agree with this. I don't mind Sanji wrecking Page One, but when it comes to their final battles, I want far less "Zoro vs Pica" where he was never hurt or challenged at all, and far more Zoro vs Daz Bones, or Sanji vs Jabra. Fights where they take damage and have to overcome their limits. And lets be honest, Zoro laughing off Hyouzou might be great fan service for message board discussion, but it was in no way even remotely as cool as Zoro climbing out of the rubble, slicing the leaf but not cutting it, and then using his one sword style to finally cut Bones. You can't even compare how badass those fights are.

I want that again, it's been nearly a decade since we've gotten a good Zoro or Sanji fight (some may think I'm exaggerating...but the time skip was 2010! 9 years ago, and we are still waiting on that type of fight for anyone not named Luffy. This arc should be the one.

 

[nik87]

What confuses me is that I thought Smoker let himself get beaten so Law could take his heart back from Vergo.

The way I see it is that Smoker wasnt strong enough to beat Vergo(-san). He was of comparable strength but since Vergo(-san) was slightly ahead in CoA Smoker wasnt up to the task and thus willingly sacrificed himself towards the end of their battle in order to get Law his heart back.
However, I am open to the possibility that it was a plot element and I would like that to be true. Plot element which used Smoker as hype tool for Vergo(-san) and at the same time using Vergo(-san) as hype tool for Law. On the other hand, Smoker was short against Law as well who easily defeated him but it was fitting for the story and didnt lead to one of arc's major fights and Law's powers are hax so...

I honestly believe Oda has decided to put Zoro on level roughly with his master, and that he will effortless overpower enemies or more or less overwhelm them despite a few cuts until Mihawk or an Admiral. Not sure why, but I just feel like he's chilling out not bothering. It is boring as heck. So far, nothing has been done to alleviate this problem.

I am getting the same feeling, it's been way too long since Zoro reached his limits and there are so many unanswered questions about him. If Oda doesn't put him against Kaido, even for a single clash, I'll be kinda disappointed. I want to see him struggle against the strongest creature, even if he gets one-shotted too, it's necessary imo.

He indeed is bored.

 

[nik87]

Well, tbh I don't think his prime strength is significantly greater than it is now. It just makes no sense, in his old age he clashed evenly with an admiral.
I am guessing that due to his age he would lose the battle eventually due to lack of stamina but in his prime, he would eventually win it.
That's my take on his power level, slightly above an admiral but not high enough to make him a different tier.

 

[Fox666]

I agree with nik87. Unlike Whitebeard, Rayleigh has not shown any sign of sickness, and in One Piece world someone doesn't become weaker with age. Rayleigh would have been as strong as he's now: He can wipe the floor with any Yonko commander and can hold his own against an Admiral. However I would add that Kizaru appeared to be sweating a bit against Kizaru.

 

[M3J]

The way I see it is that Smoker wasnt strong enough to beat Vergo(-san). He was of comparable strength but since Vergo(-san) was slightly ahead in CoA Smoker wasnt up to the task and thus willingly sacrificed himself towards the end of their battle in order to get Law his heart back.
However, I am open to the possibility that it was a plot element and I would like that to be true. Plot element which used Smoker as hype tool for Vergo(-san) and at the same time using Vergo(-san) as hype tool for Law. On the other hand, Smoker was short against Law as well who easily defeated him but it was fitting for the story and didnt lead to one of arc's major fights and Law's powers are hax so...

if true, then I never saw Vergo losing to Law as an indication of Law's strength, but how good his devil fruit is. Same with Law vs. Smoker. Willing to bet Law would not have been able to hurt Vergo, much less beat him, without the ability his devil fruit gives him.

 

[nik87]

if true, then I never saw Vergo losing to Law as an indication of Law's strength, but how good his devil fruit is. Same with Law vs. Smoker. Willing to bet Law would not have been able to hurt Vergo, much less beat him, without the ability his devil fruit gives him.

Well true but not sure why would we exclude Law's DF, that's his major strength.

 

[M3J]

Just saying that I don't see Vergo weaker than Law at all, just at a disadvantage.

 

[afromarco005]

Rayleight in his prime should be slightly above admiral tier so above yonko commander tier and able to hold his own against the likes of yonko and the world strongest swordsman.

 

[afromarco005]

So the databook said that Big mom had the strongest followers/family/crew in the world what should we deduce from this info?

 

[thedude]

So the databook said that Big mom had the strongest followers/family/crew in the world what should we deduce from this info?

I wonder about that. I figured each Yonko and their crew is equivalent. If that is true, does that mean each has something that puts them on par with the other? Like Big Mom has the strongest crew, Kaido is the strongest individually, White Beard had the most allies (just a guess given his Marine Ford army), Black Beard has the strongest DF. Shanks has...something?

I did think her crew looked strongest, just comparing to Kaido's. Kaido has his 3 commanders, then the 6 flying six, then other headliners who have been mediocre (other than the super nova's who've joined). Big Mom had her 3 commanders who were all very strong, then all of those named children who each looked crazy strong. It seemed like her entire crew were her "flying 6" fighters. Daifuki, Perosporo, Brule (just for her power...), there were so many cool interesting fighters on that crew, which has made Kaido's crew seem lame so far (although 3 commanders + flying 6 gives him 9 potentially strong cool crew members before you get to the fodder).

 

[M3J]

So the databook said that Big mom had the strongest followers/family/crew in the world what should we deduce from this info?

Did it say that before we were introduced to Kaidou? Could it mean overall crew strength in Big Mom compared to the top three or four in Kaidou's? As in, all of Big Mom's forces are strong or strong enough while Kaidou's commanders are the only strong ones? I feel like this is still an open-ended statement.

 

[Admiral Teach]

It certainly seems like the BMP had diverse powers and significant individual strength. And there are so many of them. It really does look like she has the strongest crew. But that is probably by a small margin. Just because they are the strongest overall does not mean curb-stomp levels.

And there are a few other cool but powerful entities in the Beast Pirates, like Scotch. But they are on different islands. Big Mom appears to have a more concentrated territory where her children rule.

Shanks right now is looking more and more like a giant enigma. Even if he were so powerful that he equals or outright eclipses Whitebeard, he cannot be in every part of his territory at once. There must be something in his possession or his crew's that allows him the luxury of just sailing about the whole world unmolested. Granted, Big Mom just did this with Kaido, and right after her territory suffered from the Straw-Hat raid. So maybe I am reading too much into that there.

 

[Pirate Queen]

So the databook said that Big mom had the strongest followers/family/crew in the world what should we deduce from this info?

Did it say that before we were introduced to Kaidou? Could it mean overall crew strength in Big Mom compared to the top three or four in Kaidou's? As in, all of Big Mom's forces are strong or strong enough while Kaidou's commanders are the only strong ones? I feel like this is still an open-ended statement.

Very possible that it's just that Kaido is so powerful he makes up the difference between Bm's crew powerful crew and his own less powerful.

By percentage, let's just say BM is 50% of her crews strength and the rest of her crew is the other 50%

Whereas Kaido is 75% of his crews strength and the rest of his crew is the remaining 25%

It would make them equal but their power distribution is divided differently.

 

[nik87]

I think the real power of Big Mom Pirates, as the strongest crew, is the Biscuit-man himself.
All they need to do is focus their battle tactics around Cracker and let Katakuri protect him with his future sight or let Big Mom protect him while Katakuri does the offense part with Smoothie together.
A shielded Cracker, hiding behind indestructible Big Mom and producing biscuit doubles... It's a scary ability.

The Yonkos probably excel in different areas, as it was already mentioned.
Kaido has the strongest offense.
Big Mom has the strongest defense.
Whitebeard had the strongest DF, replaced by Blackbeard now.
Shanks has the strongest Haki mastery.

Luffy is the best Baka.
On a serious note, Luffy is trying to excel in each of those categories but is mediocre in them all for now.

 

[M3J]

Very possible that it's just that Kaido is so powerful he makes up the difference between Bm's crew powerful crew and his own less powerful.

By percentage, let's just say BM is 50% of her crews strength and the rest of her crew is the other 50%

Whereas Kaido is 75% of his crews strength and the rest of his crew is the remaining 25%

It would make them equal but their power distribution is divided differently.

If that's true then why did Big Mom try to ally with the giants and was upset at losing the alliance and thus their power to take down her enemies? If her crew is really that strong, then they should be able to whittle down Kaidou's crew, even if they can't beat Kaidou himself.