Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
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Idk I feel there is enough there in the manga and outside sources to place Ryume at Legendary level. I can certainly see where your coming from but my stance is that you don't just give the title of "GOD" without being able to back it up. In any manga ever, anything with the title of GOD is 100% able to be backed up....
Even if he was (I think this was wano based) but if Mihawk isn't Roger/WB tier then why should Ryuma be? Would a previous WSS really have lost to pre-TS zoro? Even nerfed? Sleeping WB was kicking Ace's ass. Easily. Old nerfed WB was pummeling Admiral tiers. When you reach a certain status, no matter how nerfed you are, you can't really be losing to someone like pre TS Zoro imo
WB was also injured when he went against Akainu, so if these injuries matter as much, then why have Akainu higher than the other admirals? An argument could be made that Akainu just happened to be the one who was with WB there. If Squard could injure WB, any one can do it provided they are close enough to him and he has his guard down (which was the case with Akainu).
Even if we go with that, if oldbeard is 1 tier belowe young WB and Shanks clashed with oldbeard with no issues, and then went on to stop Akainu who you place on same tier as old beard, then why is Shanks 2 tiers young WB/1 tier below Oldbeard? I haven't seen a single thing in the story that remotely suggests this
We have seen a lot more action from Whitebeard and Akainu. Until Shanks actually fights for longer than 1 panel, I don't see the point of putting him higher.
They are strong yes, but not crazy strong. DD manhandled Law. Even Luffy had a hard time beating Cracker initially. I don't see any of the other supernovas being able to keep up with Gear 4 Luffy or DD. Zoro is also firmly within that supernova bracket. Being so far beneath those you listed (3 full tiers) is a lot imo. He is on the same tier with them and they're under or barely equal to the Scabbards like Ashura/Denjiro and Jinbei, Jack, etc (for now). At SA we had the supernovas commenting on how much of a beast Zoro was and even surprised he was not a captain himself.
Well G4 Luffy is a beast indeed, and it's for that exact reason that G4 Luffy isn't on the same level as the other supernovas. Ashura expression looked more like he was seeing a crazy person and not like he was intimidated by Luffy's power at all. He wasn't surprised at all. He did get surprised to see Luffy could use CoC though. If Cracker is on the same tier with G4, why the Jack and the Scabbards be lower?
But he wasn't fainting at all, and yes he did say he was too old, but that's him simply referring to the fact that he is way past his prime and has been retired for quite some time. Even with that though, he was the one who drew blood from Kizaru. He was panting, which is to expected considering he was relaxing in a bar one minute and holding off an admiral. Kizaru himself commented on the fact that Rayleigh was stalemating him + Garp & Kizaru saying that the marines couldn't try to capture Rayleigh without making preparations. Both Kizaru and Rayleigh tried to negotiate their way out of a battle. Also consider that Rayleigh said he hadn't even held a sword in a while.
IMHO the whole scene implies Rayleigh would not be able to defeat Kizaru, and over time Kizaru would get the best of him.
Of course, he's still strong enough that even if Kizaru could defeat him, Kizaru could still get seriously injured, and the Marines couldn't allow that when they had to worry with Whitebeard.
Feels weird to have Im and Dragon ranked tbh. Dragon is a bit understandable, but there's no indication Im is even a fighter. I don't know who is on Aokiji's right. The top tiers are pretty cool (I still have no idea why Ryuma is there). I don't agree with King on Top Tier. There's pretty much nothing to indicate that. Rayleigh should be on top tier. He stalemated Kizaru afterall. Kidd is out of place in that top-tier. He really has no business there right now.
Mid-tier is pretty balanced, but two cluttered. The variation is too much. Zoro/Law/Drake/Ichiji imo shouldn't be there. Ace shouldn't really be a tier under Jozu and Vista
Im using shounen logic with Im, its just impossible to rule the world if you don't have the strength to back it up and since i belive Im to be the last boss who everyone (pirates, marines and revolutionaries) will have to work together to topple him/her.
Dragon is that high because he is an end game character who is directly challenging Im, and it would be weird if he wasn't capable of at least matching up in power.
To Aokiji's right is Momousagi, she would have been an Admiral if Oda hadn't already planned on making Fujitora and Greenbul admirals from the beginning.
Ryuuma is that high up since he was responsible for forcing the WG and Pirates to give up on taking over Wano for its gold.
King is that high up since i belive every VC of a yonko are that strong, each one of them is capable of being a yonko themselves with the exception being Katakuri because of his bad showing vs Luffy.
Rayleigh is placed there because i believe his power is declining by the day.
Kidd is that high up because of hype and portrayal, i don't see Kid and Drake being that much weaker than Luffy going forward.
Zoro, Law and Drake are too strong for the people in the low tire and stronger than most of the people in the mid tire so i don't see the problem with it, Ichiji was shown to be the strongest of the 4 brothers and was actually able to stall Katakuri and only lost to him because he got distracted.
It was pretty apparent in the War that Marco, Jozu and Vista were a cut above the rest, those 3 were clearly stronger than Ace.
I don't disagree, but to be fair, Ryuma was more than nerfed, lol. He was dead for hundreds of years by that point. Not only that, he wasn't even using his actual technique. So basically Zoro was fighting what could barely be considered the shell of Ryuma's former self that wasn't even using his real fighting power.
Imagine if Mihawk had died centuries ago and someone like Tashigi's shadow was put in it. The body would be strong, but not nearly as strong as it was when it was alive and it'd just be using Tashigi's sword technique, which is good, but nowhere near Mihawk's style.
Idk I feel there is enough there in the manga and outside sources to place Ryume at Legendary level. I can certainly see where your coming from but my stance is that you don't just give the title of "GOD" without being able to back it up. In any manga ever, anything with the title of GOD is 100% able to be backed up....
god Enel was a thing too. I do understand these, but still tho. I mean, WB was beating Ace sleeping and presumably with just regular punches. I know Ryuma didn't have his own techniques but again. Regarding his body, was there anything indicating that had any serious effect on him? I guess I understand the pov but I don't fully agree. There's also the fact that the lists with Ryuma up there don't have Mihawk there either
I think you are going too hard over some vague statements.
Wasn't Whitebeard the one who attacked Akainu with his guard down?
We have seen a lot more action from Whitebeard and Akainu. Until Shanks actually fights for longer than 1 panel, I don't see the point of putting him higher.
That's because Doflamingo himself is super strong. I'm surprised how Law is underestimated, despite having so many feats.
They commented that Zoro is not the like of following orders, which speaks of his captain.
They could be, but so far I don't have any better point of reference.
IMHO the whole scene implies Rayleigh would not be able to defeat Kizaru, and over time Kizaru would get the best of him.
Of course, he's still strong enough that even if Kizaru could defeat him, Kizaru could still get seriously injured, and the Marines couldn't allow that when they had to worry with Whitebeard.
Fujitora did put some pressure on Sabo. And I think Fujitora wasn't using all of his strength, even Sabo questioned what he was up to.
Considering Akainu was in his prime and in way better shape than WB, it's more of a plus that WB could get behind and knock him down. When Akainu went to the ground, we saw WB simply standing there. Akainu charged while still backing WB, stood up and punched him (WB didn't even move the whole time) and WB could still knock him to the ground again despite that.
If there's no point in putting him higher, the same goes for putting him lower. I don't think there's a single reference point that would back that. Akainu stood down on seeing Shanks. This was someone that had no qualms going through everyone in an effort to get Luffy. This was someone who was going to kill Coby because he wasted time. Shanks blocked that attack and Akainu didn't even bother trying anything else asides gritting his teeth and cursing Shanks...
Law had decent feats yes, but he was vastly overwhelmed by DD.
RE: Rayleigh and Kizaru- imo it implies nothing except neither really wanting to duke it out. Kizaru was panting, but that was not affecting his battle with Kizaru in the slightest (as far as we know, only Rayleigh drew blood). If a fight is going to be that close, then they're definitely on the same tiers..
Was there any indication Sabo was using his full strength though?
god Enel was a thing too. I do understand these, but still tho. I mean, WB was beating Ace sleeping and presumably with just regular punches. I know Ryuma didn't have his own techniques but again. Regarding his body, was there anything indicating that had any serious effect on him? I guess I understand the pov but I don't fully agree. There's also the fact that the lists with Ryuma up there don't have Mihawk there either
I think you are ignoring the fact that he was dead.
People i place in legendary status is because they are legends not because they are stronger than the people i place a tire lower, if Ryuuma, Roger, Whitebeard where alive and along with Garp still being in their prime they would be ranked along with Kaido and the rest.
god Enel was a thing too. I do understand these, but still tho. I mean, WB was beating Ace sleeping and presumably with just regular punches. I know Ryuma didn't have his own techniques but again. Regarding his body, was there anything indicating that had any serious effect on him? I guess I understand the pov but I don't fully agree. There's also the fact that the lists with Ryuma up there don't have Mihawk there either
I simply don't think Mihawk is as strong as Ryuma was in his prime. Mihawk is the WSS not the Strongest Swordaman who has ever lived, unless their is proof im placing Ruuma>Mihawk... but like i said before, all debateable.
Only reason I placed him him at all is because of the Wano thing. I didnt place Dragon or I'lm because I'm an in the dark as to their abilities.
Im using shounen logic with Im, its just impossible to rule the world if you don't have the strength to back it up and since i belive Im to be the last boss who everyone (pirates, marines and revolutionaries) will have to work together to topple him/her.
Dragon is that high because he is an end game character who is directly challenging Im, and it would be weird if he wasn't capable of at least matching up in power.
To Aokiji's right is Momousagi, she would have been an Admiral if Oda hadn't already planned on making Fujitora and Greenbul admirals from the beginning.
Ryuuma is that high up since he was responsible for forcing the WG and Pirates to give up on taking over Wano for its gold.
King is that high up since i belive every VC of a yonko are that strong, each one of them is capable of being a yonko themselves with the exception being Katakuri because of his bad showing vs Luffy.
Rayleigh is placed there because i believe his power is declining by the day.
Kidd is that high up because of hype and portrayal, i don't see Kid and Drake being that much weaker than Luffy going forward.
Zoro, Law and Drake are too strong for the people in the low tire and stronger than most of the people in the mid tire so i don't see the problem with it, Ichiji was shown to be the strongest of the 4 brothers and was actually able to stall Katakuri and only lost to him because he got distracted.
It was pretty apparent in the War that Marco, Jozu and Vista were a cut above the rest, those 3 were clearly stronger than Ace.
The Tenryubito rule just fine despite being fodders tho. A couple of the kings rule their respective countries even without being the strongest. The chair Im sat on was for the king of all the kings..
Katakuri had a bad showing against Luffy? He was miles ahead of Luffy at the start of the fight. He only gave him room to grow to the point where Luffy was as strong as him. How is that a stain on Katakuri's name?
On Kidd, I suppose that's speculation but he is, imo, definitely not that high. Luffy is easily above all the other supernovas and it's not really close tbh.
How were Marco, Jozu and Vista stronger than Ace? Ace's fight was against Akainu who, in addition to being an absolute beast also had DF advantage. Didn't Jozu get tied up by DD?
How were Marco, Jozu and Vista stronger than Ace? Ace's fight was against Akainu who, in addition to being an absolute beast also had DF advantage. Didn't Jozu get tied up by DD?
Ace wasnt so strong. He had two "fights" on screen, he lost both VERY clearly. Marco, Jozu and Vista did hold their ground against similar foes and had a better showing then Ace just making a fireball.
Jozu getting tied up, is true but at that point doffy wasnt his opponent, so he was catched by surprise.
A strong case be made for Mihawk being on a yonkou level and I'd definitely support it. I think one of the few reasons he's not considered as such in the OP world is because he's an individual with no territorial influence or crew/organisation under him. But until it's proven to me beyond doubt that Shanks is weaker than Mihawk, I'll place him where I feel at the very least he deserves to be. I still think there's not much difference in their swordsmanship and the difference could be their haki. I doubt we'll see them clash but we will see individual fights that'll prove me wrong hopefully.
I'm not sure what you're implying there, you think his ranking should be higher than an admiral or...? But Ryuuma isn't the sole reason WG don't involve themselves with Wano, he's part of the strong "samurai reputation" the country has but I also think it works in the WG's favour to have the country remain closed and isolated; that way they can continue to carry their weapons dealings with Kaido and Orochi quietly. In that, I don't think even the Marines are aware; seen by how surprised Coby was when Drake mentioned seeing CP0 there.
He's at least at a YC level, I placed him that high because I think even those below him would have trouble defeating him.
Provided he's acquired and trained his haki over the timeskip, with his devil fruit I don't see a problem putting him there. He has an advantae in many match ups. I don't see many below him in that ranking being able to easily take him out.
Similar logic I used for many other characters, I don't see him winning against many of those in the NW Captain category, though he could be put there too. After this arc maybe I'll revise it, for now I'm comfortable putting him there.
He's strong enough to be trusted to go after Boa Hancock and be a member of a secret Marine taskforce but you don't think he could be consider AT LEAST a Supernova level? There's no way I'd have him winning against Hancock but he's a known marine officer.
Ace wasnt so strong. He had two "fights" on screen, he lost both VERY clearly. Marco, Jozu and Vista did hold their ground against similar foes and had a better showing then Ace just making a fireball.
Jozu getting tied up, is true but at that point doffy wasnt his opponent, so he was catched by surprise.
His first fight was against BBPs. BB has a hax fruit tbh. There are few that would have defeated him even pre-ts. His resilience and durability let him hold out long enough. Losing to BB isn't a stain on his name imo. I think Ace is being underestimated a lot. Ace cancelled out Aokiji's attack after he was freed (naturally, since fire and ice are opposites). Ace was also injured and weak for basically the entire marineford war. Akainu himself mentioned his DF is superior and Ace got careless. They didn't get to tango after that because Akainu went straight for Luffy and Ace could only jump in with his bare body to save him.
The Tenryubito rule just fine despite being fodders tho. A couple of the kings rule their respective countries even without being the strongest. The chair Im sat on was for the king of all the kings..
Katakuri had a bad showing against Luffy? He was miles ahead of Luffy at the start of the fight. He only gave him room to grow to the point where Luffy was as strong as him. How is that a stain on Katakuri's name?
On Kidd, I suppose that's speculation but he is, imo, definitely not that high. Luffy is easily above all the other supernovas and it's not really close tbh.
How were Marco, Jozu and Vista stronger than Ace? Ace's fight was against Akainu who, in addition to being an absolute beast also had DF advantage. Didn't Jozu get tied up by DD?
the kings who rule fine even though they are not strong are all good people and have strong subordinates, but the CD arent good people so we cant apply that logic here.
Katakuri wasn't miles ahead, he just had better CoO, his power and speed where not overwhelming Luffy and he couldn't even finish off Luffy even though he was out for blood at the beginning, the Big Mum pirates power structure is different than the other yonko crews, the Big Mum pirates are not top-heavy but have a large number of mid tire people while the majority of the yonko crew have 3 top tires and countless scrubs Big Mum has 3 almost top tires and countless mid tires.
Oda made it a point to inform us that out of all the worst gen Blackbeard, Kid and Drake are doing better than the rest and knowing Oda he didn't just say that without any future importance.
Jozu did get blindsided by Doffy but we have seen countless stronger people get blindsided before, e.g Luffy on Kaido.
Jozu, Vista and Marco where all capable of holding their on vs Aokiji, Mihawk and Kizaru while Ace was no match for Akainu and got defeated in 1 hit.
the kings who rule fine even though they are the strongest are all good people and have strong subordinates, but the CD arent good people so we cant apply that logic here.
Katakuri wasn't miles ahead, he just had better CoO, his power and speed where not overwhelming Luffy and he couldn't even finish off Luffy even though he was out for blood at the beginning, the Big Mum pirates power structure is different than the other yonko crews, the Big Mum pirates are not top-heavy but have a large number of mid tire people while the majority of the yonko crew have 3 top tires and countless scrubs Big Mum has 3 almost top tires and countless mid tires.
Oda made it a point to inform us that out of all the worst gen Blackbeard, Kid and Drake are doing better than the rest and knowing Oda he didn't just say that without any future importance.
Jozu did get blindsided by Doffy but we have seen countless stronger people get blindsided before, e.g Luffy on Kaido.
Jozu, Vista and Marco where all capable of holding their on vs Aokiji, Mihawk and Kizaru while Ace was no match for Akainu and got defeated in 1 hit.
I don't understand the first part. I still see no correlation between Im ruling the world and Im being a fighter, given what we know about OP politics..
But Katakuri was miles ahead. He was bodying Luffy and he literally did every move Luffy did better. Even with Katakuri lost his composure, he still took multiple G4 hits without going down. Katakuri beat Luffy down multiple times, Luffy just kept stubbornly getting back up. Eventually Katakuri got worried about his meal time and buried Luffy so he could eat.
The BMPs definitely have top heavy hitters. Those are the sweet commanders....
BB is a yonko, of course he is doing well. Drake got into Kaido's ranks as the top (as we now know) F6 while Kidd..lost an arm to Shanks and a fight against Kaido? Doing well doesn't necessarily equate to him them being as powerful and that statement was made in comparison to the other Supernovas and not to YCs..
Ace literally got no battles. No one at the war that wasn't WB or Shanks held their own to Akainu. Akainu was pummeling everyone. He got past Marco and Vista, burned Jinbei, got past Marco and Vista again, took down Ivankov and Inazuma, got past crocodle, burned Jinbei again and then the whole WBPs squared up to stop him before Shanks came in. Of all the admirals at the war, Akainu was clearly more bloodthirsty. Ace had two on panels against the admirals. The first was canceling out Aokiji's attack, the second was losing to Akainu's clash (DF disadvantage) and finally, simply throwing his body in to protect Luffy. Akainu took off half of WBs face and left scars on Jinbei and Luffy so obviously you can't tank an attack from him bare and that isn't a bad showing or anything from ACE
I don't understand the first part. I still see no correlation between Im ruling the world and Im being a fighter, given what we know about OP politics..
But Katakuri was miles ahead. He was bodying Luffy and he literally did every move Luffy did better. Even with Katakuri lost his composure, he still took multiple G4 hits without going down. Katakuri beat Luffy down multiple times, Luffy just kept stubbornly getting back up. Eventually Katakuri got worried about his meal time and buried Luffy so he could eat.
The BMPs definitely have top heavy hitters. Those are the sweet commanders....
BB is a yonko, of course he is doing well. Drake got into Kaido's ranks as the top (as we now know) F6 while Kidd..lost an arm to Shanks and a fight against Kaido? Doing well doesn't necessarily equate to him them being as powerful and that statement was made in comparison to the other Supernovas and not to YCs..
Ace literally got no battles. No one at the war that wasn't WB or Shanks held their own to Akainu. Akainu was pummeling everyone. He got past Marco and Vista, burned Jinbei, got past Marco and Vista again, took down Ivankov and Inazuma, got past crocodle, burned Jinbei again and then the whole WBPs squared up to stop him before Shanks came in. Of all the admirals at the war, Akainu was clearly more bloodthirsty. Ace had two on panels against the admirals. The first was canceling out Aokiji's attack, the second was losing to Akainu's clash (DF disadvantage) and finally, simply throwing his body in to protect Luffy. Akainu took off half of WBs face and left scars on Jinbei and Luffy so obviously you can't tank an attack from him bare and that isn't a bad showing or anything from ACE
In OP all horrible leaders/king have all been powerful, for me its obvious Im is extremely strong to be able to rule the World.
Katakuri was a step ahead but not miles ahead, if the gap between him and Luffy was that much he would have ended Luffy pretty easily but he couldn't because he wasn't that far ahead of Luffy, and at that point Luffy was nearly YC level, trade out Katakuri with Marco, Ben or King then Luffy would have been done in pretty easily.
The sweet commanders are strong but are not comparable to their other counterparts, Shanks's commanders are said to be top tires and Ben is said to rival Shanks in terms of strength, Shiryu made even Blackbeard nervous, Marco had the potential to be a yonko and King was confident of stoping Big Mum and her kids solo, while Katakuri was afraid of rampaging Big Mum and count even beat Luffy who at the point was nowhere near YC1.
Oda never put statement like that for nothing, we learned Kid got to Big Mum territory and got away with no damage after getting what he wanted, he survived a clash with the Redhaired Pirates and Kaido and has CoC, BB became a yonko and Drake is someone who can replace a hight tire YC if he wanted. It isn't wise to just ignore a statement like that from Oda IMO.
I gave pretty solid proof as to why Ace wasnt as strong as Jozu, Vista and Marco, none of those 3 lost out in a clash with Aokiji, Mihawk and Kizaru, they were able to trade a few blows with Marco and Jozu even landing hits on Aokiji and Kizaru, while Ace tried to clash with Akainu and was defeated in 1 hit, i cant place someone like that with the top 3 since they did far better than him. Im not saying Ace is weak he is probably YC2 level while Jozu, Vista and Marco are YC1 level
They collided an attack each that's not a clash, Marco was capable of taking Kizarus attacks and even landing attacks on Aokiji and Kizaru, Vista was able to trade sword clashes with Mihawk and Jozu was able to hold of Aokiji for a period of time, none of them where defeated in a single trade like Ace!
Just because Ace is not as strong a Jozu, Marco and Vista doesn't mean he is weak, you guys seem to think just because someone is placed lower than others means they are weak for some reason.............
A strong case be made for Mihawk being on a yonkou level and I'd definitely support it. I think one of the few reasons he's not considered as such in the OP world is because he's an individual with no territorial influence or crew/organisation under him. But until it's proven to me beyond doubt that Shanks is weaker than Mihawk, I'll place him where I feel at the very least he deserves to be. I still think there's not much difference in their swordsmanship and the difference could be their haki. I doubt we'll see them clash but we will see individual fights that'll prove me wrong hopefully.
I'm not sure what you're implying there, you think his ranking should be higher than an admiral or...? But Ryuuma isn't the sole reason WG don't involve themselves with Wano, he's part of the strong "samurai reputation" the country has but I also think it works in the WG's favour to have the country remain closed and isolated; that way they can continue to carry their weapons dealings with Kaido and Orochi quietly. In that, I don't think even the Marines are aware; seen by how surprised Coby was when Drake mentioned seeing CP0 there.
He's at least at a YC level, I placed him that high because I think even those below him would have trouble defeating him.
Provided he's acquired and trained his haki over the timeskip, with his devil fruit I don't see a problem putting him there. He has an advantae in many match ups. I don't see many below him in that ranking being able to easily take him out.
Similar logic I used for many other characters, I don't see him winning against many of those in the NW Captain category, though he could be put there too. After this arc maybe I'll revise it, for now I'm comfortable putting him there.
He's strong enough to be trusted to go after Boa Hancock and be a member of a secret Marine taskforce but you don't think he could be consider AT LEAST a Supernova level? There's no way I'd have him winning against Hancock but he's a known marine officer.
Then shouldn't it be that until proven Shanks is stronger? its only natural to place the stronger character higher and not place him lower than another which is contradictory to the story
Ryuuma lead the samurai of Wano back then, so for me at the very least it proves he was truly a legend.
Even if he is, he is at the very bottom of the pecking order so his ranking should show it, he would be no match for any YC2 i even have doubts he would beat Jack or Cracker, but you place him as high as Katakuri who was fighting of G4 Luffy and even besting it, while Doffy was no match at all for G4
Until he shows he has progressed that much ill never place him over Smoker, let alone place him with YC2 people who would destroy him
Zoro didn't think Vergo was anything special but though Killer/Kamazo was strong yet you place Vergo over him?
Yes he is part of the party going after Boa and that chapter also implies Fujitora is on the ship, so that's not an up for him its just shows many marines are going after Boa. Koby has progressed but not to the point where he can be in the same level as KIller and Moria that's just impossible
