One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[M3J]

Sanji isn't capable of fighting with his torso ripped open, he isn't capable of cutting steel, he can't lose dozens of litres of blood, he couldn't have destroyed the Giant Jack and cannot take his captain's damage from a Shishibukai fight on top of his own. He just can't and claiming that he can is stretching it.

Other than being capable of cutting steel, I don't see how he's incapable of other things. I can see him and Luffy doing most of that

I'm not entirely sure either. I may be wrong, but I always assumed his hybrid form was Brain Point. His Reindeer form is always referred to as Walk Point and his human form is Heavy Point.

I don't actually know or remember, mate, it's too complicated and been too long. I do know that he usually brings up using brain point, but I don't remember if he took a rumble ball for that.

 

[thedude]

But Mr 2 is leagues weaker than Mr. 1. Bounty isn't strenght but Mr. 1 is worth twice as much, that's too much to be neglectible.

Absalom and Zombie Ryuma were both low-diff for Zoro/Sanji. In the same arc, Zoro takes all of Luffy's pain on top of his own, while Sanji gets knocked out by a jab to the side with a swordhilt.

Their bounties have never been comparable up till now, where Zoro just could not get a bounty due to not being part of the incident. Zoro was always far ahead of Sanji up til recently and is also part of the Worst Generation, which Sanji isn't.

People like Pavlik have one-shot a Pacifista with a gun. It is pretty much worthless as soon as you are a Haki user. Just because Zoro and Sanji can low-diff something doesn't mean that they are equal.

Their rivalry is actually a Vicky the Viking reference, so even the source of it has nothing to with strenght.

Zoro frequently performs strenght related feats that Sanji just cannot perform. That creates the gap between them.

Sanji isn't capable of fighting with his torso ripped open, he isn't capable of cutting steel, he can't lose dozens of litres of blood, he couldn't have destroyed the Giant Jack and cannot take his captain's damage from a Shishibukai fight on top of his own. He just can't and claiming that he can is stretching it.

This does not make Sanji a worse character, quite the opposite.

Claiming Sanji can't do those things is your invention. Other than cutting steel (which he wouldn't do anyway, lol. You may as well say "Sanji can't use three sword style"). You are confusing slicing damage with overall damage, and that's really an invention of yours. Luffy can't slice a mountain in half...yet he could punch Doflamingo through meters of bedrock.

Honestly, you invent arbitrary feats of strength to support your case, so it's not even a real debate going on. I'm arguing manga, you are bringing in Viki the Viking and slicing steel.

 

[McNuss]

Other than being capable of cutting steel, I don't see how he's incapable of other things. I can see him and Luffy doing most of that

But Sanji never shows destructive capabilities on par with Luffy or Zoro. It is all just pinpoint damage.

He also never shows their astounding durability. If he would have it, Oda would show it but he doesn't. He frequently shows both Luffy and Zoro with it though.

Like this entire idea of Sanji miraculously having feats that he never shows on the sole basis that he has to be somewhat equal is just wrong.

Claiming Sanji can't do those things is your invention. Other than cutting steel (which he wouldn't do anyway, lol. You may as well say "Sanji can't use three sword style"). You are confusing slicing damage with overall damage, and that's really an invention of yours. Luffy can't slice a mountain in half...yet he could punch Doflamingo through meters of bedrock.

Honestly, you invent arbitrary feats of strength to support your case, so it's not even a real debate going on. I'm arguing manga, you are bringing in Viki the Viking and slicing steel.

Then show actual manga panels of Sanji feats that suggest he could do the same things that Zoro can do.

It is not just about cutting steel, Sanji would have been killed by Daz Bones. He can't loose that much blood, that's Zoro's feat, it is even in the databooks.

I am certainly not confusing slicing damage with overall damage, it is just that Sanji can't deal as much damage as Zoro. He never shows any capabilities like that.

The thing is, you ignore any Manga fact that I call upon. All your arguments are just "You made this up, they are clearly rivals so they must be on par". That's a very weak line of arguments, because there is no backup behind it. A rivalry alone doesn't make one equal. If you suggest I make things up, try tackling my arguments one by one instead of dodging all of them.

What about Thriller Bark? That is too much to ignore yet you dodge it all the time.

And yes, Vicky the Viking is important. Oda didn't think "Hey these guys are number two and three in the crew let's make them have a rivalry", instead he clearly wanted to have the Snorre/Tjure dynamic in the Strawhat crew, hence why their rivalry first features in an arc that has rivaling Vikings.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

EoS zoro should be at least as strong as prime rayleigh
Rayleigh should be yonko tier so mihawk should be at least as strong as shanks unless zoro had different EoS enemy

 

[Fox666]

But Sanji never shows destructive capabilities on par with Luffy or Zoro. It is all just pinpoint damage.

He also never shows their astounding durability. If he would have it, Oda would show it but he doesn't. He frequently shows both Luffy and Zoro with it though.

Like this entire idea of Sanji miraculously having feats that he never shows on the sole basis that he has to be somewhat equal is just wrong.

Sanji has enough feats before the time-skip. From kicking a gigantic sea monster to destroying several building while fighting Bentham.

After the time-skip he barely did anything. Even Zoro has like 1 serious fight?

I do agree that Sanji doesn't have the durability of Luffy or Zoro.

 

[M3J]

But Sanji never shows destructive capabilities on par with Luffy or Zoro. It is all just pinpoint damage.

He also never shows their astounding durability. If he would have it, Oda would show it but he doesn't. He frequently shows both Luffy and Zoro with it though.

Like this entire idea of Sanji miraculously having feats that he never shows on the sole basis that he has to be somewhat equal is just wrong.

That's because his fighting style is different, as you said it's more of a pinpoint damage whereas Zoro can do distanced and wide slashes while Luffy can expand his body parts. You can't really use destructive capabilities to show superiority or inferiority between characters with different fighting styles.

From what I recall, the only time he didn't was when Zoro knocked him out on Thriller Bark. Otherwise I can't remember when he didn't show astounding durability. But otherwise I'm assuming he doesn't really show how durable Sanji really is because unlike Zoro and Luffy, his other role is a cook. Can't cook food if you're too worn out or unconscious, yeah?

 

[thedude]

Thiss is why i struggle to even bother debating certain posters. "they aren't near equal because Viki the Viking and cutting and Oda let Zoro take Luffy's pain and therefore Sanji couldn't have..."

It's all either irrelevant (Viki the Viking), silly (Zoro can cut, Sanji can't), or speculative.

Zoro and Sanji fight second strongest each arc.
Zoro and Sanji have similar bounties.
Zoro and Sanji are relieved/confident others are safe because the other is with them (Wano when Zoro says Sanji won't let anything happen to them, Ennie Lobby when Kaku prevents Zoro from saving Usop and Nami)
Zoro and Sanji one shot a Pacifista together while arguing over who is stronger.


But....there's an anime Oda was influenced by, and you see, the two and three in that were just rivals, not equal in strength (who knows if this is even true lol), so you see...Zoro is much stronger!

 

[nik87]

Sanji is closer to Luffy than he is to Zoro, it has never been a contest...

 

[Pirate Queen]

*Combat Style

 

[Fox666]

From what I recall, the only time he didn't was when Zoro knocked him out on Thriller Bark. Otherwise I can't remember when he didn't show astounding durability. But otherwise I'm assuming he doesn't really show how durable Sanji really is because unlike Zoro and Luffy, his other role is a cook. Can't cook food if you're too worn out or unconscious, yeah?

Luffy and Zoro have super-Human durability, they have survived injuries that would be impossible in real life.

Sanji has been knocked out by stuff that would take down a regular person (at least in One Piece world).

--- Double Post Merged, May 20, 2020, Original Post Date: May 20, 2020 ---

That's because his fighting style is different, as you said it's more of a pinpoint damage whereas Zoro can do distanced and wide slashes while Luffy can expand his body parts. You can't really use destructive capabilities to show superiority or inferiority between characters with different fighting styles.

Sanji uses speed, while Zoro relies on power. Sanji can do things that Zoro can't, and vice-versa. And Luffy combines both speed and power.

Sanji style is to kick the opponent a thousand times. Even his Diable Jambe is triggered by speed.

 

[Aliocha]

Luffy and Zoro have super-Human durability, they have survived injuries that would be impossible in real life.

Sanji has been knocked out by stuff that would take down a regular person (at least in One Piece world).

Yeah, Absalom pierced his lungs with a knife in TB

And his body withstood the pressure of 10 km of water in Fishman island

 

[Fox666]

Yeah, Absalom pierced his lungs with a knife in TB

Sanji got stabbed with a knife by someone who was weak (compared to him).

Compare it to Luffy getting beaten by Katakuri for 10 hours, or the injuries Zoro received from Daz Bones.

And his body withstood the pressure of 10 km of water in Fishman island

I don't think that can be used as a comparison. Sanji does have the durability of someone at his level (while Luffy and Zoro are anomalies). And I don't know if someone else would be affected or not for being out of the bubble for a few seconds...

 

[jaymizzo]

And we're back to Sanji and Zoro again. Man the weakling trio debate was fun to read while it lasted.

It's just circular arguments leading to more pointlessness as @thedude pointed out.

After reading what someone said earlier, I feel like we should really rethink our power level scaling as we seem to think Luffy and crew are going to be YC+ level by the end of the arc.

Its true that Marineford was a good example of how Oda world builds and structures power levels. Luffy will definitely get stronger but doubtful it will be to the point of manhandling everyone who isn't a Yonko. My hope is that since power levels aren't going to be absurd but follow the marineford style, then at least the bounties should make up for it.

 

[Fox666]

Personally I don't think the Strawhats will be Yonko crew level.

There are too many allies that are more fit to fight All-Stars or Sweet Commanders.

While we still have the Flying Six, Oniwabanshu and other children of Big Mom around, which IMHO are more fit for the Strawhats.

Besides this is not the end of the series, Luffy cannot be Yonko level or there won't be more challenges. He still has to climb his way to fight Blackbeard or Akainu...

 

[thedude]

Personally I don't think the Strawhats will be Yonko crew level.

There are too many allies that are more fit to fight All-Stars or Sweet Commanders.

While we still have the Flying Six, Oniwabanshu and other children of Big Mom around, which IMHO are more fit for the Strawhats.

Besides this is not the end of the series, Luffy cannot be Yonko level or there won't be more challenges. He still has to climb his way to fight Blackbeard or Akainu...

Luffy was at Schibukai level after fighting Crocodile. He still fought others after that, and even other non-Schibukai enemies. Just being at a level doesn't mean you have no more competition. He'll beat KaIdo this arc, but that doesn't mean he'll be able to crush BB lot Akainu. And since the manga is nearing the end according to Oda, he has to be at that level soon. Likewise with at his crew, who will likely fight their analogues in BBs crew. They will all have to beat a YC level person, unless Oda backs off of what he seemed to set up so early on with the crew similarities.

 

[M3J]

Luffy and Zoro have super-Human durability, they have survived injuries that would be impossible in real life.

Sanji has been knocked out by stuff that would take down a regular person (at least in One Piece world).

--- Double Post Merged, May 20, 2020, Original Post Date: May 20, 2020 ---

Sanji uses speed, while Zoro relies on power. Sanji can do things that Zoro can't, and vice-versa. And Luffy combines both speed and power.

Sanji style is to kick the opponent a thousand times. Even his Diable Jambe is triggered by speed.

He hasn't, he's usually been conscious despite most injuries. Sanji's taken beating upon beating during Thriller Bark but was still able to continue fighting Oz. He also likely took the most damage out of all the Straw Hats on Punk Hazard but was still moving like nothing happened. And where Zoro was knocked out by one lightning, Sanji woke up and managed to save Nami and survive another lightning attack or two from Enel.

 

[McNuss]

Sanji has enough feats before the time-skip. From kicking a gigantic sea monster to destroying several building while fighting Bentham.

After the time-skip he barely did anything. Even Zoro has like 1 serious fight?

I do agree that Sanji doesn't have the durability of Luffy or Zoro.

But both Luffy and Zoro can also defeat monsters and destroy several buildings.

They have Sanji's feats, but Sanji hasn't there's.

Sanji also likely couldn't have done what Zoro did to Pica.

--- Double Post Merged, May 21, 2020, Original Post Date: May 21, 2020 ---

It's just circular arguments leading to more pointlessness as @thedude pointed out.

I also wouldn't really be interested in this specific topic if I wouldn't be accused for making things up.

He hasn't, he's usually been conscious despite most injuries. Sanji's taken beating upon beating during Thriller Bark but was still able to continue fighting Oz. He also likely took the most damage out of all the Straw Hats on Punk Hazard but was still moving like nothing happened. And where Zoro was knocked out by one lightning, Sanji woke up and managed to save Nami and survive another lightning attack or two from Enel.

Sanji was knocked out for a significant portion of Skypea Arc.

The damage Sanji took on Punk Hazard is insignificant compared to what Luffy or Zoro have taken before.

Sanji was knocked out during Drum Island, Skypea Arc, lost to Khalifa (not hurting women is one thing, letting yourself be defeated another), got knocked out by a jab to the side from Zoro during Thriller Bark... Would Luffy or Zoro lose against Judge, fighting dirty or not, would they go down?

Sanji isn't portrayed as as durable as them. It's just not what happens. Astounding durability is specifically mentioned as Zoro's feat in the first databook though.

Luffy was at Schibukai level after fighting Crocodile. He still fought others after that, and even other non-Schibukai enemies. Just being at a level doesn't mean you have no more competition. He'll beat KaIdo this arc, but that doesn't mean he'll be able to crush BB lot Akainu. And since the manga is nearing the end according to Oda, he has to be at that level soon. Likewise with at his crew, who will likely fight their analogues in BBs crew. They will all have to beat a YC level person, unless Oda backs off of what he seemed to set up so early on with the crew similarities.

Luffy was no way at Crocodile's level after beating him. He won just via circumstances, at the third attempt. Crocodile is an experienced veteran and Pre-skip Luffy can't shake off being a Rookie. Marineford shows that Luffy retains superiority over Crocodile but performs far worse vs anyone else than him.

Luffy would also have lost to Moria (or rather Oars) without Nightmare Luffy.

I don't think Luffy will ever be able to mid-diff Blackbeard either and the same should be true for Akainu unless he gets taken out in the epilogue.

The "YC" level is hardly a homogenous tier and the weaker officers of Blackbeard don't really have to be Sweet Commander/All-Star level.

Powerscaling in One Piece is a lot slower than in other Shonen but it is brilliant because there is no powerlevel inflation.

And that is also what I think is the problem with all the Zoro/Sanji debates. Sanji gets inflated to keep up, even there is nothing in text or artwork that suggest such an inflation.

There is no reason for it. Sanji isn't Yamcha. Sanji is and will forever be a super relevant fighter and super relevant character for the plot. But he is not Zoro. They have different roles and different purposes for the plot. Zoro would never perform secret agent stuff. Zoro also cannot make a cake that knocks out Big Mom. On the other hand Zoro can defeat foes that Sanji cannot defeat.

If Zoro and Sanji would actually be equal power-wise, One Piece would actually be a lot more boring. Accrediting Sanji with the same stuff that Zoro can do just leads to him being a better version of Zoro without swords. Smarter, more empathetic, can cook and can stealth. It doesn't really benefit the character of Sanji but it would greatly reduce the character of Zoro to basically being just a dumber version of Sanji.

-------


To end this Zoro/Sanji boring debate, these are my last words in it:


Zoro is the more powerful fighter. He is more powerful than Sanji and not just by nuances but clearly by a step.

 

[King Moe]

But both Luffy and Zoro can also defeat monsters and destroy several buildings.

They have Sanji's feats, but Sanji hasn't there's.

Sanji also likely couldn't have done what Zoro did to Pica.

--- Double Post Merged, May 21, 2020, Original Post Date: May 21, 2020 ---

I also wouldn't really be interested in this specific topic if I wouldn't be accused for making things up.


Sanji was knocked out for a significant portion of Skypea Arc.

The damage Sanji took on Punk Hazard is insignificant compared to what Luffy or Zoro have taken before.

Sanji was knocked out during Drum Island, Skypea Arc, lost to Khalifa (not hurting women is one thing, letting yourself be defeated another), got knocked out by a jab to the side from Zoro during Thriller Bark... Would Luffy or Zoro lose against Judge, fighting dirty or not, would they go down?

Sanji isn't portrayed as as durable as them. It's just not what happens. Astounding durability is specifically mentioned as Zoro's feat in the first databook though.


Luffy was no way at Crocodile's level after beating him. He won just via circumstances, at the third attempt. Crocodile is an experienced veteran and Pre-skip Luffy can't shake off being a Rookie. Marineford shows that Luffy retains superiority over Crocodile but performs far worse vs anyone else than him.

Luffy would also have lost to Moria (or rather Oars) without Nightmare Luffy.

I don't think Luffy will ever be able to mid-diff Blackbeard either and the same should be true for Akainu unless he gets taken out in the epilogue.

The "YC" level is hardly a homogenous tier and the weaker officers of Blackbeard don't really have to be Sweet Commander/All-Star level.

Powerscaling in One Piece is a lot slower than in other Shonen but it is brilliant because there is no powerlevel inflation.

And that is also what I think is the problem with all the Zoro/Sanji debates. Sanji gets inflated to keep up, even there is nothing in text or artwork that suggest such an inflation.

There is no reason for it. Sanji isn't Yamcha. Sanji is and will forever be a super relevant fighter and super relevant character for the plot. But he is not Zoro. They have different roles and different purposes for the plot. Zoro would never perform secret agent stuff. Zoro also cannot make a cake that knocks out Big Mom. On the other hand Zoro can defeat foes that Sanji cannot defeat.

If Zoro and Sanji would actually be equal power-wise, One Piece would actually be a lot more boring. Accrediting Sanji with the same stuff that Zoro can do just leads to him being a better version of Zoro without swords. Smarter, more empathetic, can cook and can stealth. It doesn't really benefit the character of Sanji but it would greatly reduce the character of Zoro to basically being just a dumber version of Sanji.

-------


To end this Zoro/Sanji boring debate, these are my last words in it:


Zoro is the more powerful fighter. He is more powerful than Sanji and not just by nuances but clearly by a step.

Looking thus far, nah Sanji is clear stronger one especially we are in same arc and Sanji gotten better spotlight who he defeated compare to Zoro being hype tool by his 4 opponents and fainted to one who was both nerf and pleasure. Zoro gets overhype when he even loses and that really gets inflated too much. Their rivalry is that Naruto and Sasuke to one up each other. No shame on Zoro coming up short especially given NW, Sanji had more dangerous enemies compare who Zoro face.

Idk what you talking about it's clear Sanji is as stronger and at times stronger than Zoro in the series. He is Left-Hand while Zoro is Right-Hand. Idea is to think Zoro is closer to Luffy which still Headcannon nonsense as neither are and Oda made it clear Luffy is top of them both while being his main forces under him in leading and fighting. It proven this point on positions and relationships, so denying it by Headcannon won't help you like that.

 

[M3J]

Sanji was knocked out for a significant portion of Skypea Arc.

The damage Sanji took on Punk Hazard is insignificant compared to what Luffy or Zoro have taken before.

Sanji was knocked out during Drum Island, Skypea Arc, lost to Khalifa (not hurting women is one thing, letting yourself be defeated another), got knocked out by a jab to the side from Zoro during Thriller Bark... Would Luffy or Zoro lose against Judge, fighting dirty or not, would they go down?

Sanji isn't portrayed as as durable as them. It's just not what happens. Astounding durability is specifically mentioned as Zoro's feat in the first databook though.

Was he? I don't remember him going down until he was electrified, and even then, I remember him going up on the Ark and saving Nami. Also not sure why this matters given almost everyone but Luffy was knocked out. Sanji wasn't knocked out for that long.

Based on what? Even Nami was surprised at how resilient Sanji's body is. I think Usopp was too, and they've both seen Sanji fight and take damage.

So was Luffy. Sanji was fighting and was overwhelmed by how many snow rabbits there were, while Luffy couldn't fight because of Nami. Sanji was likely caught off guard against Khalifa as he didn't know her power, but he bounced back quickly after being bathed in water and saved Usopp from Jabra and beat him. Yeah, after taking tons of damage, and I guess that elbow from Zoro was it. Not Luffy as he wouldn't care, while Zoro would have too much honor to hurt an innocent person, probably. I don't see how this indicates Sanji being inferior as it wasn't necessarily battle of power he lost.

He's portrayed as incredibly durable. Why not point out how Zoro fainted from a stab? How Caesar managed to knock Luffy out?

 

[Shasha23]

Enel knocked out Sanji and Usopp for majority of the arc with a casual nameless attack.
Zoro and Robin took named attacks and woke up faster than Sanji did.

There has never been any instance where Sanji has show equal or better durability than Zoro!