One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[thedude]

Yea, lets just talk haki instead of hardness.... on second reading, i am in the wrong bringing the scientific logic...
. I do agree with this statement, strongest haki will dominate.

Right. They explicitly say this in the manga, like when Zoro clashed with Pica. The stronger haki wins.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2020 ---

Its not only force, now you are making it completely scientific. Hardness is definition of tolerance of scratch, while toughness is the tolerance of strength/force.
So diamond can be broken with a hammer, like i have stated mutliple times before, but toughness would be resistance to force.
Also, in your example, what if the diamond is moving with the same force? Hardness would win and sword would break? Cos i thought we are assuming both Garp and Mihawk are swinging a punch and sword respectively.
So rephrasing your statement, a diamond sword is more effective in cutting a diamond shield than any other, because hardness is equal , toughness is equal and sharpness would be defining factor.
Sharpness also essentially means you are exerting more force in a smaller and concentrated plane.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2020 ---

@Lexusflame
Actually, this is getting too scientific and none of it applies to the OP world, in any case, we both agree that when it comes to Garp, its a different story.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2020 ---

I disagree with the scientifc logic, but she's not trolling. someone who blindly believes a swordsmen is strongest is either oblivious to another point of view or trolling...
Also, its very unfair to call her trolling, even nik for that matter...

I don't think it's unfair for the latter, dude tries to derail every conversation to say "Swords rule".

 

[AmitDS]

Since my logic is warped, I am sure you have evidence in 22 years of fight history that proves me wrong. Among countless battles we should have at least one example of combatants of comparable strength going at each other, sword vs hand, ON PANEL, and the barehanded one doing just fine. Give me just one proof so I can finally see how the hand equals a sword.

You don't have any examples of a swordsman beating someone equal to him who uses hand to hand because swords > hands, either so...

So somebody with their fists is automatically weaker than a swordsman who is equal to them power and skill wise because you think swordsmen are stronger than marital artists, marksmen, archers or people who used mixed styles.

Zoro fans are so odd. One panel of Roger using a sword like many characters who aren't known as swordsmen and suddenly he's a swordsman and is automatically stronger than Garp. All this to push some Zoro propaganda as if he isn't outclassed by non swordsmen right now (Luffy says hi).

So that's that. Bye.

 

[thedude]

The reason it's so hard to rate power is Oda doesn't make it easy! You have strong characters of all heights (Roger was 9 feet tall, Kaido and BM are about 28 feet. There are giants like Oars Jr who stand 196 feet. meanwhile, Luffy and the rest of the Straw Hats are all normal human size. The tallest is Brook who is about Rogers height, but the 3 strongest are all normal human height (Zoro and Sanji both 5'11). Yonko Shanks is 6'6", same as Mihawk.

Then you have all sorts of different powers that seem insanely strong (so much so that I wonder if Oda regrets making Luffy just a rubber man lol). You have magma powers, gravity powers, time slowing powers, earth quake and black hole and dragons. And you have all of this...and yet you have guys with no power like Roger or Shanks standing right there with those.

Then you have people who use guns, swords, staffs, clubs...and yet, you have your Garps and Luffy's who use their fists, and are not considered any weaker for it.

So the idea that there is 1 thing that stands above all others just flies in the face of this manga. Swords don't beat all. Just like a specific high powered Devil Fruit doesn't beat all. Just like the combination of amazing DF (fire breathing dragon), massive height (28 feet), a weapon (Club), and amazing Haki don't automatically make Kaido the pirate king, or even able to beat someone like Shanks, 20 feet smaller than him, no DF, missing an arm.

So...yeah, that's all i've got to say on that lol.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

You have yet to properly explain why your reasoning is any better than anyone else's. Don't make me out to be a troll when I have met everyone of your arguments with a valid counter point.

My reasoning is just what people call 'common sense'. And I'm absolutely not saying this in a arrogant way... But to say that the medium through which haki is used is completely out of the equation is disregarding what we already know from the manga.

To say "this is OP so real world physics don't apply" is just another way of saying "I just made these rules up".

Because sharp objects are still shown superior to flesh in OP, sometimes even without haki. Hody Jones vs Luffy is a very good example of this.

Because no matter how you want to twist it — it's logical to think that sharp/pointy objects that have better hardness than flesh will deal damage to said flesh.

To counter swords you need to have more than just equal level of haki.

I even provided a picture explaining why haki is hardness vs hardness.

What picture are you talking about? You mean the Zoro vs Pica panel?

Well, yeah, it's not contradictory to what I'm saying. Zoro didn't say as long your haki is equal to mine, did he? Pica needed to have stronger haki if he hoped to defend against Zoro's swords.

 

[Aliocha]

There has also never been an occasion when a swordsman defeated a hand to hand fighter with both on the same level

in the end all this discussion is useless

 

[Deleted member 169696]

There has also never been an occasion when a swordsman defeated a hand to hand fighter with both on the same level

in the end all this discussion is useless

There doesn't need to be such occasion, because it's common sense that swords > hands. That's why me and some other guys are saying — Oda tends to avoid drawing such fights.

That's the whole reason why this argument started.

 

[Ramen]

Zoro would get his ass kicked by Kaido with the latter only using his bare hands.

Swords and hands are meaningless.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2020 ---

It all depends on power level. Zoro wouldn't stand a chance against prime Garp.

 

[Shasha23]

Zoro would get his ass kicked by Kaido with the latter only using his bare hands.

Swords and hands are meaningless.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2020 ---

It all depends on power level. Zoro wouldn't stand a chance against prime Garp.

You clearly haven't been reading nor paying attention to what has been said, otherwise you wouldn't have made such a stupid statement!

So many pages into this discussion and the naysayers still cant disprove the notion of swords being stronger than bare flesh.

 

[M3J]

If that's what you think, what would happen in this situational clash

Prime Garp's CoA Haki clad Fist or Cracker's CoA Haki clad sword... what do u think would give way first?

Because if you think Cracker would be able to pierce through Garp's haki you seriously need to reevaluate your powerleveling.

Garp would probably break the sword and send Cracker flying for miles.

You see, it's a convoluted way of saying Zoro is > everyone. So it matters. To some, it matters more than anything. It's why you'll see resurgence in arguing over the title WSS "it must be the strongest because swords are stronger, ergo, Zoro will be strongest". If you can't argue he's strongest via feats, and he won't ever have greater feats than Luffy, you have to then switch tactics, and say "swords beat everything, therefore the strongest sword user is the strongest character".

If you understand that, you'll understand the obsession with arguing swords are stronger than anything else.

Learn to ignore posts, especially if you're just going to call them a troll.

 

[Ramen]

You clearly haven't been reading nor paying attention to what has been said, otherwise you wouldn't have made such a stupid statement!

So many pages into this discussion and the naysayers still cant disprove the notion of swords being stronger than bare flesh.

It's all based on power level. There are those that can break swords with their hands. You just can't accept that for whatever reason.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2020 ---

@thedude Summed it up perfectly. All equal in everything, Guns>swords>hands. Only when everything is equal. Too bad it's not. I guess Mihawk is the strongest character since he's the WSS.

 

[Aliocha]

There doesn't need to be such occasion, because it's common sense that swords > hands. That's why me and some other guys are saying — Oda tends to avoid drawing such fights.

That's the whole reason why this argument started.

Swords cut meat and bullets pierce it, is it also common sense that snipers> hand-to-hand combatants?

It's a fictional world, Bobby funk had a body so strong that even an ax with haki couldn't cut him

 

[nik87]

Can we please stop using mental gymnastics only to pat ourselves on the back to justify our individual PL lists about which Oda doesnt care at all?
Use common sense, if a hand was equal to a sword, the MC himself would be wrecking swordsmen left and right while the exact opposite is happening for 22 years and you are still not getting message the author is trying to get across...

You don't have any examples of a swordsman beating someone equal to him who uses hand to hand because swords > hands, either so...

So somebody with their fists is automatically weaker than a swordsman who is equal to them power and skill wise because you think swordsmen are stronger than marital artists, marksmen, archers or people who used mixed styles.

Zoro fans are so odd. One panel of Roger using a sword like many characters who aren't known as swordsmen and suddenly he's a swordsman and is automatically stronger than Garp. All this to push some Zoro propaganda as if he isn't outclassed by non swordsmen right now (Luffy says hi).

So that's that. Bye.

You wont see Oda draw a swordsman trashing a barehanded user because he gets nothing from it, just wastes a powerful character for one panel while he can use him for a chapter long fight against another barehanded combatant. Think as an author of the manga instead like a bad power scaler...

Roger fights with a sword and he isnt a swordsman? The logic of some OP fans...
You would be foolish to think that Luffy or any other barehanded combatant outclasses Zoro this late in the game.
Zoro is the main character alongside Luffy and his goal is to be the strongest ever. You will have to deal with Zoro becoming stronger than anyone else possibly, including Luffy.

Zoro would get his ass kicked by Kaido with the latter only using his bare hands.

Swords and hands are meaningless.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2020 ---

It all depends on power level. Zoro wouldn't stand a chance against prime Garp.

Kaido would lose his hands if he went vs Zoro barehanded.
Zoro would mince Garp as well.
The story isnt following Kaido's and Garp's path to the top, it follows Luffy and Zoro.

Swords cut meat and bullets pierce it, is it also common sense that snipers> hand-to-hand combatants?

It's a fictional world, Bobby funk had a body so strong that even an ax with haki couldn't

Oden's swords say hi to Kaido's body, the toughest in the verse.

 

[Ramen]

Can we please stop using mental gymnastics only to pat ourselves on the back to justify our individual PL lists about which Oda doesnt care at all?
Use common sense, if a hand was equal to a sword, the MC himself would be wrecking swordsmen left and right while the exact opposite is happening for 22 years and you are still not getting message the author is trying to get across...

You wont see Oda draw a swordsman trashing a barehanded user because he gets nothing from it, just wastes a powerful character for one panel while he can use him for a chapter long fight against another barehanded combatant. Think as an author of the manga instead like a bad power scaler...

Roger fights with a sword and he isnt a swordsman? The logic of some OP fans...
You would be foolish to think that Luffy or any other barehanded combatant outclasses Zoro this late in the game.
Zoro is the main character alongside Luffy and his goal is to be the strongest ever. You will have to deal with Zoro becoming stronger than anyone else possibly, including Luffy.

Kaido would lose his hands if he went vs Zoro barehanded.
Zoro would mince Garp as well.
The story isnt following Kaido's and Garp's path to the top, it follows Luffy and Zoro.

Oden's swords say hi to Kaido's body, the toughest in the verse.

Kaido is losing his hands to Zoro?
Zoro would mince prime Garp? You are the definition of a fanboy.

 

[nik87]

Kaido is losing his hands to Zoro?
Zoro would mince prime Garp? You are the definition of a fanboy.

Zoro is the MC, not Kaido, not Garp.
You are underestimating main character whose sole purpose is being the strongest.
If you think some old geezers will remain stronger than a main character, well, good luck.

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Swords cut meat and bullets pierce it, is it also common sense that snipers> hand-to-hand combatants?

It's a fictional world, Bobby funk had a body so strong that even an ax with haki couldn't cut him

Well, it depends. In some cases I can see a long range sniper having an advantage.

The problem with snipers though, is that as a sniper you are fully dependant on your weapon's properties. Unlike swordsmen and barehanded fighters who can adjust the force of their attacks.

 

[Shasha23]

It's all based on power level. There are those that can break swords with their hands. You just can't accept that for whatever reason.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2020 ---

@thedude Summed it up perfectly. All equal in everything, Guns>swords>hands. Only when everything is equal. Too bad it's not. I guess Mihawk is the strongest character since he's the WSS.

Like I said you are clearly not paying attention!
It has been stated many times over that if 2 characters of similar stats the one with the blade wins!
Yet you start going on and on by bring up 2 character of different power levels to try and talk more nonsense.
it's the same stupid logic about Garp and Cracker, it's not even shocking anymore when you see people's stupid reasoning anymore on the forums this days.

Also you are wrong again, in One Piece power balancing goes like this Devil Fruits > swords > hands > guns

 

[nik87]

One Piece power balancing goes like this Devil Fruits > swords > hands > guns

I would place hands in the last spot.
Guns are second last. They are lethal, we saw top tier Oden die from a simple gun, however, the exaggerated reaction times that combatants in OP have, allows them to easily deal with guns and block them with their DF or their weapons. If it hits clean, it can easily kill off normal bodies. However, it is a tiny diameter so unless it's a headshot like in Oden's case, it is not fatal, Law took many gunshots in DR and survived.

I wouldnt place DF's above swords. Most DF's are inferior and only few come close to swords. Swords have been put on a pedestal, the title for strongest swordsman was given and also, there is a super rare achievement the black blade which only 2 swordsmen have accomplished. No axeman, gunslinger, clubman, sickleman, scytheman have achieved the same.

Only the very lethal DFs can be compared and also depends on Oda's mood and purpose(fate) of the character on the receiving end.
Akainu burns part of WBs head off, that is no different than that part of the head being sliced off by a swordsman.
When Oda allows Akainu can burn through a body like through butter, when he isnt allowing it, he doesnt burn through(Jinbe).

Same for swordsmen, they should be splitting bodies left and right but Oda isnt allowing it, not even when it is fodder vs top tier. However, when he is in the chopping mood, he allows Doffy to cleanly chop off Law's arm. It is foolish to think that swordsmen and other bladed weapon users cannot do the same.
Bare hand equaling a sword is pure headcanon which shouldn't exist. If it wasnt clear before Oden vs Kaido, it should be clear after but we still see people who havent learned their lesson...

 

[Shasha23]

I would place hands in the last spot.
Guns are second last. They are lethal, we saw top tier Oden die from a simple gun, however, the exaggerated reaction times that combatants in OP have, allows them to easily deal with guns and block them with their DF or their weapons. If it hits clean, it can easily kill off normal bodies. However, it is a tiny diameter so unless it's a headshot like in Oden's case, it is not fatal, Law took many gunshots in DR and survived.

I wouldnt place DF's above swords. Most DF's are inferior and only few come close to swords. Swords have been put on a pedestal, the title for strongest swordsman was given and also, there is a super rare achievement the black blade which only 2 swordsmen have accomplished. No axeman, gunslinger, clubman, sickleman, scytheman have achieved the same.

Only the very lethal DFs can be compared and also depends on Oda's mood and purpose(fate) of the character on the receiving end.
Akainu burns part of WBs head off, that is no different than that part of the head being sliced off by a swordsman.
When Oda allows Akainu can burn through a body like through butter, when he isnt allowing it, he doesnt burn through(Jinbe).

Same for swordsmen, they should be splitting bodies left and right but Oda isnt allowing it, not even when it is fodder vs top tier. However, when he is in the chopping mood, he allows Doffy to cleanly chop off Law's arm. It is foolish to think that swordsmen and other bladed weapon users cannot do the same.
Bare hand equaling a sword is pure headcanon which shouldn't exist. If it wasnt clear before Oden vs Kaido, it should be clear after but we still see people who havent learned their lesson...

Yeah the sole reason I placed guns last is because any decent fighter can dodge bullets.

Nah I'm just placing DF as the strongest weapon since anyone who eats a DF instantly becomes superhuman, unlike with a sword where you would need training to be any sort of danger to anyone.
I wasn't taking into account the individual who would be using the DF or sword, just thinking which weapon would be more devastating at the hands of a novice

 

[Brandish μ]

Plot is the strongest weapon.

Seriously though, if a character is meant to be strong, Oda will make them that strong, regardless of their 'weapon' type.

 

[nik87]

Plot is the strongest weapon.
Seriously though, if a character is meant to be strong, Oda will make them that strong, regardless of their 'weapon' type.

Of course but in case of barehanded combatants like Garp, he has to make it plausible.
He cant just show a hand clashing with a sharp weapon and leaving without a scratch.
If such happens, it would open a question - Why use a weapon in the first place?

If it's all about hardness which comes solely from Haki, then, defensively, Zoro without swords is as good as Zoro with swords since his haki doesnt change.
It is foolish to believe such and hardness vs hardness is a flawed logic, which manga itself has debunked several times.
The equation is far from that simple, it has many more factors included than just haki vs haki. There is force, there is surface of the weapon, there is the material of the defender, is the defender stationary, is he moving towards the attacker, is he moving away from the attacker...

All those things matter and are based on real-life physics, exaggerated in OP but still the same laws of physics. Tankman never resisted Cracker's stab, he never took the force head-on with intent to resist it, he went along with the flow, in the direction of the stab. "Dont swim upstream, go with the flow." Most of the things are easy to explain with a basic understanding of the laws of physics.