One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Not at all: I simply banned the topic because it's never ending.

You have evidence for your claims and I have for mine: my evidence is simply not feats because it's simply not been Mihawk's arc to shine yet. We'll see how many feats he has when the manga is over.

But your only evidence is his title... which isn't evidence. You don't really have a manga basis for saying Mihawk can clash with a top tier equally. The closest he got was getting blocked by Jozu after sending a flying slash at Whitebeard.

1- Shanks became a Yonko through diplomacy.

You also claim Shanks got his Yonko title through diplomacy which is 100% basless. You won't find a single panel backing that claim. Where did you even come up with this?

 

[Fox666]

But your only evidence is his title... which isn't evidence.

It's not enough material for the 4,528,415,312 discussions it generated.

 

[Nie Li]

But your only evidence is his title... which isn't evidence. You don't really have a manga basis for staying Mihawk can clash with a top tier equally. The closest he got was getting blocked by Jozu after sending a flying slash at Whitebeard.

This is a blatant lie. I have provided several arguments other than his title, some over the course of my months here, some in this very conversation, but yes, now that you mention it his title is also evidence or, if you will, "a hint that cannot be disregarded".

Interetingly enough, all my points on this especific topic always revolve around the narrative: narrative-wise, it only makes sense that Mihawk is that strong.

Feats come and go; Mihawk had some great feats on MF, but it was sadly an arc in which every Shichibukai was portrayed as equal-standing despite we all knowing they're not even close between each other. Whenever the arc in which he's the focus starts we will see plenty of his feats, like it's happened to every important enemy so far, like Doflamingo or Kaido. Which is why people should just be patient before downgrading him despite the narrative.

You also claim Shanks got his Yonko title through diplomacy which is 100% basless. You won't find a single panel backing that claim.

I claim that from the canon Ace novel.

 

[Pirate Queen]

It's not enough material for the 4,528,415,312 discussions it generated.

It really isn't.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 3, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 3, 2021 ---

I claim that from the canon Ace novel.

Provide a link showing where it says he got the title through diplomacy and not strength because I read that book and it doesn't say that.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 3, 2021 ---

A narrative isn't enough to place Mihawk over Shanks... It just isn't.

 

[Shasha23]

I didnt say Mihawk became weaker, he couldve also become stronger, but I am proving that Shanks never lost strength due to his 1 arm which is why people think that Mihawk is stronger than him.
Nobody else is his equal? That's an overestimation. Only swordsmen.
He is not above Yonko level. I said he is "portrayed" as Zolo's last opponent, but there is a chance someone else besides Zolo beats Mihawk and becomes the new WSM. You tried using my own words against me but it failed. There are other characters who have better feats than him, unless you have prove otherwise.

Shanks never lost strength so now how does that make him stronger than Mihawk in your head when he never was or has been stronger than him?
A swordsman which Shanks is buddy!
Shanks is a yonko who is weaker than him, so doesnt that make him above yonko...... .....
I never tried to use your words against you, stop being insecure!
In One Piece portrayal > feats, if feats where everything then every yonko/admiral/commander would be weaker than Usopp until they did something!
Also you seem to think Mihawk is Zoro's last fight when he is not, the WSS is waiting for Zoro to surpass Shanks so he can finaly enjoy a fight, but after Mihawk we have the World Government, those people are the last fight for everyone

 

[Nie Li]

Provide a link showing where it says he got the title through diplomacy and not strength because I read that book and it doesn't say that.

I'm not going to bother doing that now, though the page was linked recently in either the chapters 1000 or 999 discussion threads.

If you want to consider my point mut because I won't look for it, do so: it's not even a very relevant point to what I argued, just something I mentioned.

A more relevant point would be the one Brandish quoted me on, for example.

A narrative isn't enough to place Mihawk over Shanks... It just isn't.

That is your opinion. We don't have to agree on everything, nor can either of us be always right.

I personally have more than enough reasons (that are not just his title nor fanboyism, I love Shanks just as much as I love Mihawk) to believe that he is, and I have talked about them plenty of times, but it's okay if you don't. It's not something to lose sleep over.

 

[Pirate Queen]

[

I'm not going to bother doing that now, though the page was linked recently in either the chapters 1000 or 999 discussion threads..

Have you even read the novel?

 

[Fox666]

narrative-wise, it only makes sense that Mihawk is that strong.

Excuse me, but exactly what narrative?

If we are going to speculate about what will happen in the future...

Mihawk has enough symbolism about death that his role maybe going to be of someone Zoro must avenge.

I claim that from the canon Ace novel.

No matter how much diplomacy he used, he still has to fight to be a Yonko. And he already proved he can do it.

 

[Nie Li]

I think it's a good time to stop the Mihawk vs Shanks topic. It's turning into the kind of discussion it was banned for. So that's the end of that.

Have you even read the novel?

Yes, I have.

No matter how much diplomacy he used, he still has to fight to be a Yonko. And he already proved he can do it.

So on Shanks' topic: I never said otherwise. Nowhere ever on this forum have I made the point that Shanks is not Yonko-level.

That was just something I mentioned because I was tired of people saying "then he went and became a Yonko" as if he suddenly jumped tiers of strength and left everyone else behind. We know he's as strong as any other Yonko since he stopped Kaido and Akainu, but any kind of slow progression he had over to that level didn't happen overnight, and we know that he didn't have to fight the other Yonkos directly to win his territories (which was my point) so he can have become as strong as he is now at any point of time. Any of his rivals can have followed suit, that is all.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I think it's a good time to stop the Mihawk vs Shanks topic. It's turning into the kind of discussion it was banned for. So that's the end of that.



Yes, I have.


So on Shanks' topic: I never said otherwise. Nowhere ever on this forum have I made the point that Shanks is not Yonko-level.

That was just something I mentioned because I was tired of people saying "then he went and became a Yonko" as if he suddenly jumped tiers of strength and left everyone else behind. We know he's as strong as any other Yonko since he stopped Kaido and Akainu, but any kind of slow progression he had over to that level didn't happen overnight, and we know that he didn't have to fight the other Yonkos directly to win his territories (which was my point) so he can have become as strong as he is now at any point of time. Any of his rivals can have followed suit, that is all.

If you read it that you know without question Shanks becoming a Yonko through Diplomacy and not strength is an outright lie.

But sure let's drop it.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 3, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 3, 2021 ---

No matter how much diplomacy he used, he still has to fight to be a Yonko. And he already proved he can do it.

This is honestly nonsense. The novel doesn't
say Shanks was given the yonko title because he was super diplomatic lol. That is never written.

There was another lie floating around stating Shanks was only popular because he dueled with Mihawk and Mihawk made Shanks famous and that turned out to be a lie and the translator prior to the official translation coming out turned out to be a Mihawk fanboi.

Every single Yonko has shown to have some sense of diplomacy.

Kaido aligned with Orochi and CP0

Big Mom has an extensive blackmore
Key network connections and hands in governments through the seas for which she provides protectiom

Whitebeard made allies throughout the world.

But they are truly feared not for their diplomacy, but for their strength. That is without question.

 

[Nie Li]

Whitebeard, Kaido and Big Mom became Emperors before Shanks. They had their territories and their balance.

Usually, for someone else to become the fourth Emperor, he would have to take some of these territories for himself and immediately face the Yonko's wrath, most likely that of more than one. Basically, he would be targeted as badly as Luffy is, while holding said territories.

No one can deny Shanks' strength just like that of any other Yonko is undeniable, and we know for a fact that Shanks has fought off (or at least intimidated off) Yonko's like Kaido before, but he didn't use the aforementioned method to become the fourth Emperor; he did use diplomacy. Instead of coming into the New World fighting the Yonkous and making enemies, he went to the New World with the same kind of attitude he showed during chapter 1 of the manga. He won territories over by diplomacy and trade and slowly built his own empire in the New World. Whether he fought some Yonkou's or not during all his years there is besides the point: he became one himself through more diplomatic means.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Don't you all remember when the news papers declared Luffy the 5th Emperor because he was extremely diplomatic?

I remember vaguely Morgans making a list of diplomatic achievements Luffy had achieved leading to him becoming the unofficial 5th Emperor.

 

[Nie Li]

Which is why Shanks' method was pointed out as having been exceptional.

When you explain something canon and you get answered with random mocking and a false equivalency of how a different character achieved something different, it's time to stop bothering and drop the topic.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Which is why Shanks' method was pointed out as having been exceptional.

When you explain something canon and you get answered with random mocking and a false equivalency of how a different character achieved something different, it's time to stop bothering and drop the topic.

Your claiming Shanks got his Yonko status by being more diplomatic than anything... without any proof other than saying it is in Ace's novel. Which it isn't. And I had to double check to make sure I wasn't wrong.

You can't just make up a point without being called on it. Especially a mod.

If it your opinion that Shanks is more diplomatic then state that. Don't say you read it in the Ace Novel because that can EASILY be fact checked. And in this instance you are wrong.

 

[Fox666]

I do not want to dismiss official sources, however I suggest not taking anything outside of the manga as absolute.

If I'm not mistaken, the only guidance we have about the canonicity of novel A is that it was "supervised by Oda". This is less than the databooks, which list Oda as the author.

It's clear that Oda keep some information secret, and when sources outside of the manga tried to fill in, they were proven wrong later. Even the Vivre Card provided an erroneous timeline of when Shanks became a Yonko.

Point is, anything revealed about Shanks outside of the manga is probably distorted or incomplete.

 

[Brandish μ]

In my opinion forging a black blade has more to do with the swordsman living his life dedicated to living by the sword not the strength of the swordsman. Since we don't know how a black blade is forged we can't use it as a power level feat.

Oden did have Enma which has magical properties

Yea will have to see how Zoro makes a black blade. Because, it appears he will this arc or not much after. I can see Wado Ichimonji being the one that is black, which would align more to your first point.

 

[Holt]

Did Rayleigh even have a black blade? As powerful as these weapons are, I believe the methods to making one and the relevance of it are a bit over hyped with regards to the strength of the wielder. I personally think it's just prolonged battles with the sword coated.

 

[Nie Li]

Did Rayleigh even have a black blade?

We really know nothing about Rayleigh's blade. The only thing we know is that when Roger was still active it was still not a black blade, but the blade he used as an old man on Sabaody is not the same he wielded back then (the handle is very different) so it's up in the air.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 3, 2021, Original Post Date: Jan 3, 2021 ---

Spoiler: Comparison

He also seems to have switched from a saber to a straight sword.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Yea will have to see how Zoro makes a black blade. Because, it appears he will this arc or not much after. I can see Wado Ichimonji being the one that is black, which would align more to your first point.

Right.I think if it was a power level feat we'd have more people wielding them.

Whitebeard, Roger, Shiki, Rayliegh, Rocks, Big Mom, Shanks, Vista... All should have Black blades if its a power level indicator. The fact that they don't just tells me there is something about swordsmanship itself that is needed to turn a blade black. Something beyond just strength.

And if that is the case, i expect Zoro would turn all 3 of his blades blade in the same moment, not just the Wado. But I do agree the Wado would be more personal and in line with my views.

My reasoning has more to do with the fact that literally no one cares about black blades other than Zoro and Mihawk. Zoro had Shusui for a long time and no one mentioned it having any importantance.

The only thing different about Mihawk and Zoro is that they dedicated their lives to being swordsmen. Its a part of very very soul. Whereas other swordsman are just use it as a fighting style.

 

[M3J]

Luffy defeating the strongest fighters is not part of his dreams nor of his set character arc. It's just a coincidential part that simply happens because they're standing in the way of his actual dream.

However, even if Mihawk were stronger than Big Mom, Luffy will still be defeating the strongest fighters, since Big Mom is going down before the likes of Blackbeard or the Gorosei anyway, Mihawk could just rank anywhere in the middle. Either way, Kaido is the strongest and he's surely going down now by Luffy's hand. It's okay for at least one of the top tier fighters to go down by someone else's hand.


There is no way in the One Piece world to prove that you're more skilled with a sword without defeating other people, which is what the whole deal with Zoro's dream has always been about: defeating the strongest to prove that he's the strongest, not showing off in some weird skill competition.

I'll never understand why despite the overwhelming hype given to swordsmen that also never tried to become Yonkous (Rayleigh and Oden) and even swordsmen that have become Yonko (Shanks) some fans have trouble imagining Mihawk as at least potentially Yonko-level. For all we know, Shanks, too, could be stronger than Big Mom. No matter how peaceful his ways are, he must be on their level to take some territories and not be eliminated by the others, so there's no definite proof to say how Shanks ranks between the other Yonko.

Not to mention Big Mom has bothered learning sword skills and wields a sword for a reason and these are so far some of her most devastating attacks. If a character surpasses her in swordskill (which includes CoA applied to the sword, as we know that this is part of swordsmanship), she wouldn't have an easy time against the guy, and she could even logically lose. It'd come down to the rest of her skills, but so far I haven't seen Zeus or Prometheus as being much stronger than her strength with Napoleon. If someone is superior than her at using her weapon of choice (and thus, at applying CoA on the offensive as well), said person is a good candidate to making her bleed.

It can definitely be argued that Big Mom would win, but there's nothing plain stupid about saying otherwise.

Luffy himself said he wants to take on the Yonkou in Punk Hazard and was upset when Usopp said Luffy could become the Pirate King without needing to clash with the Yonkou. He wants to fight them, and not just because they're obstacles.

I'm using Whis's logic. But also, it doesn't make sense for Luffy to not take out the strongest person, according to Whis's logic, as he's trying to be as strong as possible to protect his loved ones. Otherwise as long as Luffy takes out at least one Emperor, it doesn't really matter because he has to show he can challenge an Emperor and not lose outright. I think we agree here.

Zoro's dream is to be the strongest swordsman, not the strongest fighter. Him going against people who aren't swordsmen or fight primarily or solely with swords doesn't help him much, and to boot, Zoro has almost always gone up against sword users. Plus, Mihawk's title is the World's Strongest Swordsman or whatever, it's not World's Strongest Fighter. Swordsman is specific enough for me to acknowledge that Mihawk's renown for his swordsmanship, not for fighting in general.

Shanks is an Emperor though, so it's not hard to believe he's at least strong enough to compete with the other Emperors, especially with his tiny crew. If Kaidou for example wasn't an Emperor, I wouldn't consider him strong enough unless proven otherwise even with the WOrld's Strongest Creature or something as his title.

If BIg Mom beat Mihawk and used everything in her arsenal that wasn't related to swords to win, I wouldn't consider her the superior swordsman unless she was still using swords. That's all it is to me, fighting using that skill, probably with devil fruit involved as well.

If Luffy beat Mihawk on Marineford for example, would you consider Luffy the World's Strongest Swordsman as result?

Has it ever crossed your mind that the 5 up there are stronger than him?
Beside there are countless strong people who are not up there also, because it's not their fight, the narrative is pretty clear that the most powerful young generation of pirates will come and beat Kaido, and as we know the most powerful rockies who want to beat Kaido are all up there with the exception of Drake

Irrelevant. Especially when Jinbei is still a powerhouse who can deal out damage in different ways, as he did against a surprised Luffy.

Who else is strong enough to take on Kaidou or Big Mom without dying within a minute?