One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[grey matter]

Enma allows Zoro to do something he would otherwise be unable to do. Can we at least agree on that? It's literally the entire point of him getting Enma.

Without it he could not have scarred Kaido.

Sure.

As for CoC, it was already established that Zoro didn't utilize it with Ashura. Every other CoC attack has shown a trail of black lightening and Zoro's attack had no such effect.

Kaido said he used conqueror's haki

So remove Enma from Onigashima and the most useful thing Zoro could have done on the Rooftop is cut fire. He would have been like any of the other scabbard.

Advanced armament haki can cut Kaido too.

But yes, the Asura/scar thing would've not happened. He would've just been a stronger scabbard, esp since he doesn't even realize he has conqueror's

 

[Pirate Queen]

Kaido said he used conqueror's haki



Advanced armament haki can cut Kaido too.

But yes, the Asura/scar thing would've not happened. He would've just been a stronger scabbard, esp since he doesn't even realize he has conqueror's

You can uses CoC without Coating your attacks in CoC. It's 2 different abilities.

And yes Ryou can cut Kaido which is why I said Zoro would have been like the other scabbard, able to cut Kaido, but with shallow cuts.

This next part isn't directed at you it's just something I noted over the course of the convo

Even now half the fandom is losing their minds because Sanji is developing all these enhancements (that he was born with) despite it being his own body that he has no control over, but Zoro has a sword that "uses his own haki" and no one bats an eye.

They (Sanji/Zoro) were given access to something (enhanced DNA/Enma) that they would not have had access to (Exoskeleton/Surging Haki) unless it was given to them (By Judge/Hiyori) to enhance their already develop abilities. Without those power ups Sanji/Zoro would have needed a much longer time to access said powers (Increase physical attributes/More lethal sword attacks)

They essentially got the same type of power up.

Conveniently enough, neither wanted the powerups to begin with as Sanji didn't want to change and Zoro wanted to keep Shusui....

 

[grey matter]

You can uses CoC without Coating your attacks in CoC. It's 2 different abilities.

And yes Ryou can cut Kaido which is why I said Zoro would have been like the other scabbard, able to cut Kaido, but with shallow cuts.

Sure

Even now half the fandom is losing their minds because Sanji is developing all these enhancements (that he was born with) despite it being his own body that he has no control over, but Zoro has a sword that "uses his own haki" and no one bats an eye.

IK it isn't exactly directed at me, but.

Sanji is one of my fav strawhats, and have some issues with this.

It's not that this was a powerup. It's that this came out of nowhere.
The powerup I expected, and what Oda was building up slowly towards since WCI was the Raid Suit. I would've had zero issues if Sanji replicated everything he did against Queen, but with raid suit than this exoskeleton thing.


For Zoro, it was quite different.
He had Shisui stolen from him many chapters ago and then Zoro was chasing around this monk, so this was basically a subplot. Where we got to know more about Shisui, the smiths of Wano, some history etc. And with the subplot culminating with Zoro gettiing Enma as a compensation for allowing Shisui to remain in Wano as their national heritage/treasure. And then with some more stuff regarding Enma after Zoro got it, showcase of it's power, and Zoro training to control it for one week before the raid actually began.
It could've been done better, but at least there was a "flow" that made the Enma transition somewhat natural and continuous, instead of something abrupt/out of nowhere


The "Enma equivalent" for Sanji was the Raid Suit, had build up, sub plot etc. Also other implications/meaning to Sanji, such as slight breaking of ice with his estranged family, irony of him realizing one of his two life goals because of his family etc


TL;DR
It wasn't him getting the powerup. It was the execution

 

[LadyVados]

You can't deny that if Zoro didn't have Enma he would have never cut Kaido. Huge difference. That is literally the whole point of Enma

You can't deny that if Luffy didn't have the Gomu Gomu no mi he would have never survived his beating at the hands of those bandits who kidnapped him as a kid in Episode of Sabo. Huge difference. That is literally the whole point of the Gomu-Gomu No mi

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 14, 2021 ---

We'll see. However, going by precedents, I think it's going to be high-extreme diff for both of them after powerups (Kaku/Jabra, Mr1/Mr2, etc)

Huh ?

Zoro vs. Mr. 1- As soon as Zoro gets breath of all things, battle ends in 2 seconds

Zoro vs Kaku- As soon as Zoro awakens Asura, battle ends in 2 seconds

Sanji vs Jabura- As soon as Sanji uses DJ, battle ends in 2 seconds

Sanji vs Mr.2- Sanji didn't get any power-up

 

[Pirate Queen]

Sure



IK it isn't exactly directed at me, but.

Sanji is one of my fav strawhats, and have some issues with this.

It's not that this was a powerup. It's that this came out of nowhere.
The powerup I expected, and what Oda was building up slowly towards since WCI was the Raid Suit. I would've had zero issues if Sanji replicated everything he did against Queen, but with raid suit than this exoskeleton thing.


For Zoro, it was quite different.
He had Shisui stolen from him many chapters ago, so this was basically a subplot. Where we got to know more about Shisui, the smiths of Wano, some history etc. And with the subplot culminating with Zoro gettiing Enma as a compensation for allowing Shisui to remain in Wano as their national heritage/treasure. And then with some more stuff regarding Enma after Zoro got it, showcase of it's power, and Zoro training to control it for one week before the raid actually began.
It could've been done better, but at least there was a "flow" that made it somewhat natural and continuous, instead of something abrupt


The "Enma equivalent" for Sanji was the Raid Suit, had build up, sub plot etc. Also other implications/meaning to Sanji, such as slight breaking of ice with his estranged family, irony of him realizing one of his two life goals because of his family etc


TL;DR
It wasn't him getting the powerup. It was the execution

The second it was revealed Sanji's siblings were enhanced theories came out that Sanji had those same enhancements and was actually the perfect Germa Enhanced Soldier and WCI Arc was 5 years ago now which is like 25% of the manga.

While I see where you are coming from, I disagree that it came out of nowhere. It was actually pretty predictable. But again I can definitely see it from your perspective.

I personally would have loved if they had just explained that his flames came from Lunarian DNA and that was the extent of it, seeing as how Diable Jamble was pretty much explained away and friction and no one questioned it.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 14, 2021 ---

You can't deny that if Luffy didn't have the Gomu Gomu no mi he would have never survived his beating at the hands of those bandits who kidnapped him as a kid in Episode of Sabo. Huge difference. That is literally the whole point of the Gomu-Gomu no mi

Listen, I know you think you did something, but you really didn't. We are talking about established characters with established combat techniques/styles/processes. Luffy's had his DF since is was a child, just like Zoro wielded his swords since he was a child.

Luffy wasn't handed something that made him a more efficient rubber man before he could do it himself.

The logic established only works for Zoro in this case. If it worked like you are trying to make it you can attribute it to any character whether they got a special weapon or not.

Now this is a basic, very basic, premise. Please tell me you at least understand that much?

 

[LadyVados]

Listen, I know you think you did something, but you really didn't. We are talking about established characters with established combat techniques/styles/processes. Luffy's had his DF since is was a child, just like Zoro wielded his swords since he was a child.

Luffy wasn't handed something that made him a more efficient rubber man before he could do it himself.

The logic established only works for Zoro in this case. If it worked like you are trying to make it you can attribute it to any character whether they got a special weapon or not.

Now this is a basic, very basic, premise. Please tell me you at least understand that much?

So your argument is that since Luffy had more time to get used to and train with his unnatural power-up it isn't as unfair of an advantage...



If Luffy had never gotten the Gomu Gomu No Mi, he would be a MUCH weaker fighter than he is now, that is a fact.

And if Zoro had a zoan fruit then Luffy vs Zoro wouldn't even be a competition, it would be a low-diff win for Zoro.

Zoro with Sandai, Shusui and Wado vs Luffy with no devil fruit would again be a low-diff victory for Zoro.

 

[Pirate Queen]

So your argument is that since Luffy had more time to get used to and train with his unnatural power-up it isn't as unfair of an advantage...



If Luffy had never gotten the Gomu Gomu No Mi, he would be a MUCH weaker fighter than he is now, that is a fact.

And if Zoro had a zoan fruit then Luffy vs Zoro wouldn't even be a competition, it would be a low-diff win for Zoro.

Zoro with Sandai, Shusui and Wado vs Luffy with no devil fruit would again be a low-diff victory for Zoro.

No, listen you have got to at least try to follow along. This isn't as hard as your making it. You just saw me write that Zoro and Luffy basically started their own person fighting styles around the same age... If you saw me write that then why do you think I'm saying Luffy had more time to train?

Your not even reading my comments correctly

The second part of your post is so all over the place I'm not even going to address it. Sorry it just makes no sense. Especially since Garp was as strong as Whotebeard and Roger without a DF(And you already said earlier Luffy gets his power from his bloodline as an advantage so there is no reason for you to believe that Luffy couldn't be as strong as Garp without a DF)

 

[grey matter]

Huh ?

Zoro vs. Mr. 1- As soon as Zoro gets breath of all things, battle ends in 2 seconds

Zoro vs Kaku- As soon as Zoro awakens Asura, battle ends in 2 seconds

Sanji vs Jabura- As soon as Sanji uses DJ, battle ends in 2 seconds

Sanji vs Mr.2- Sanji didn't get any power-up

Defeating an enemy with your strongest attack after a drawn out battle isn't what I'd call a low diff

If you had an immediate rematch in the same arc, after healing both parties:
- Zoro would've high diff'd Kaku. He won't and can't use Asura right off the bat. He could use it only because Kaku himself was spending a lot of time charging up his final attack. If Zoro tries that thing right off the bat, Kaku would cut him up while he's charging his attack.
- Same with Jabra and Sanji, even after Sanji got flame legs, Jabra held his own and Sanji needed strategy to win. Heal both parties up and Sanji wins with high diff

The second it was revealed Sanji's siblings were enhanced theories came out that Sanji had those same enhancements and was actually the perfect Germa Enhanced Soldier and WCI Arc was 5 years ago now which is like 25% of the manga.

While I see where you are coming from, I disagree that it came out of nowhere. It was actually pretty predictable. But again I can definitely see it from your perspective.

I personally would have loved if they had just explained that his flames came from Lunarian DNA and that was the extent of it, seeing as how Diable Jamble was pretty much explained away and friction and no one questioned it.

Wasn't the entire point of those flashbacks to show that Sanji's mother managed to somewhat negate the genetic modifications? This exoskeleton thing still seems out of nowhere to me for that reason.
Using the RS would've been much better. Give him the RS for powerup and be done with it, it has all the right ingredients (buildup, subplot, other implications etc); no need for some drama in between the fight and abrupt powerup/changes.

Yea, I would love to see an explanation for his flame legs as well. If it's just friction, then it doesn't make sense that he can use flame legs instantly whenever he wishes. There has to be another explanation.
What is this Lunarian thing? I don't remember this

 

[Pirate Queen]

Defeating an enemy with your strongest attack after a drawn out battle isn't what I'd call a low diff

If you had an immediate rematch in the same arc, after healing both parties:
- Zoro would've high diff'd Kaku. He won't and can't use Asura right off the bat. He could use it only because Kaku himself was spending a lot of time charging up his final attack. If Zoro tries that thing right off the bat, Kaku would cut him up while he's charging his attack.
- Same with Jabra and Sanji, even after Sanji got flame legs, Jabra held his own and Sanji needed strategy to win. Heal both parties up and Sanji wins with high diff



Wasn't the entire point of those flashbacks to show that Sanji's mother managed to somewhat negate the genetic modifications? This exoskeleton thing still seems out of nowhere to me for that reason.
Using the RS would've been much better. Give him the RS for powerup and be done with it, it has all the right ingredients (buildup, subplot, other implications etc); no need for some drama in between the fight and abrupt powerup/changes.

Yea, I would love to see an explanation for his flame legs as well. If it's just friction, then it doesn't make sense that he can use flame legs instantly whenever he wishes. There has to be another explanation.
What is this Lunarian thing? I don't remember this

Right everything about WCI was to misdirect us about Sanji not being Enhanced like his siblings but the theories still developed and has since been proven right. The misdirect wasn't that he would be enhanced like his siblings. But that he would be enhanced without the draw back of losing your emotions.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 14, 2021 ---

Queen alluded to Sanji having Lunarian DNA. Further back up by King having the exact same attack as Sanji. King is a Lunarian.

 

[LadyVados]

Defeating an enemy with your strongest attack after a drawn out battle isn't what I'd call a low diff

If you had an immediate rematch in the same arc, after healing both parties:
- Zoro would've high diff'd Kaku. He won't and can't use Asura right off the bat. He could use it only because Kaku himself was spending a lot of time charging up his final attack. If Zoro tries that thing right off the bat, Kaku would cut him up while he's charging his attack.
- Same with Jabra and Sanji, even after Sanji got flame legs, Jabra held his own and Sanji needed strategy to win. Heal both parties up and Sanji wins with high diff

Did they even do any damage to Jabra and Kaku before getting their power-ups ? IIRC they couldn't even break through their tekkai, barring Zoro's tiny cut on Kaku with the leopard attack.

Same with Mr.1, due to his steel body, Zoro did literally 0 damage to him before unlocking BOAT

Also lol at Jabra competing with DJ Sanji, he dodged one attack, did one hit that was completely ineffective and got taken out in 2 hits. I can't believe you don't consider that a low-diff but consider Zoro vs Kaido a low diff. Zoro did vastly better against Kaido than Jabra did against DJ Sanji, making him vomit blood and giving him a permanent scar and dropping him to his knees.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 14, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 14, 2021 ---

No, listen you have got to at least try to follow along. This isn't as hard as your making it. You just saw me write that Zoro and Luffy basically started their own person fighting styles around the same age... If you saw me write that then why do you think I'm saying Luffy had more time to train?

Your not even reading my comments correctly

The second part of your post is so all over the place I'm not even going to address it. Sorry it just makes no sense. Especially since Garp was as strong as Whotebeard and Roger without a DF(And you already said earlier Luffy gets his power from his bloodline as an advantage so there is no reason for you to believe that Luffy couldn't be as strong as Garp without a DF)

1. Garp would definitely be much stronger than WB if he had gotten the Quake fruit as a kid or whenever WB got it. You're basically saying that the df makes no difference to your final potential as a fighter and Luffy would have by this point become just as strong without it, which makes no sense whatsoever. Why would anyone ever use a DF if this was the case.
2. Ah yes because getting power from inheritance means you'll be exactly as strong as your ancestor.

 

[grey matter]

Did they even do any damage to Jabra and Kaku before getting their power-ups ? IIRC they couldn't even break through their tekkai, barring Zoro's tiny cut on Kaku with the leopard attack.

Same with Mr.1, due to his steel body, Zoro did literally 0 damage to him before unlocking BOAT

Nah they were dealing with the Tekkai fairly well. Zoro had some trouble with the block nose from Giraffe, for some reason that nose was very hard (that entire giraffe zoan power was bizzare). Zoro dealt with the usual tekkai well

I watched the W7/EL arc recently.

Until they got the powerups, Kaku and Jabra were high diffing Zoro and Sanji, not stomping.

 

[LadyVados]

Nah they were dealing with the Tekkai fairly well. Zoro had some trouble with the block nose from Giraffe, for some reason that nose was very hard (that entire giraffe zoan power was bizzare). Zoro dealt with the usual tekkai well

I watched the W7/EL arc recently.

Until they got the powerups, Kaku and Jabra were high diffing Zoro and Sanji, not stomping.

If both parties were healed up and had a rematch again, Sanji would use DJ to beat Jabra within seconds and Zoro would use Asura to defeat Kaku in seconds.

Zoro wasn't even able to scratch Mr. 1 before unlocking BOAT, he did 100% of the damage with one hit, if they fought again Zoro would Shishi Shonson him within one second.

If Goku fights character x and gets his ass handed to him then unlocks super saiyan and one-shots, we say SSJ Goku neg/low-diffed character X not Goku had an extreme diff fight with character x. Though I guess if you look at the overall fight this is technically true. But it gives the wrong impression characters on Character X's level could now give Goku extreme-diff fights when actually Goku can now neg/low-diff characters on Character X's level.

Once the character gets a power-up it counts as a new fight.

There are 2 different types of extreme diff. Imagine if Goku starts a fight against someone, gets destroyed and badly beaten up then unlocks ssj1 and stomps his opponent. Then look at a fight in which Goku starts in SSJ1 and then has a long drawn out, hard fight with his opponent.

Both of these fights are technically extreme diff if you look at the overall fight, but they both have drastically different effects on powerscaling.

1 means after the fight, Goku would be able to low-diff people on his opponent’s level while 2 means that people on the opponent’s level will still be able to push Goku to extreme diff.

 

[Pirate Queen]

1. Garp would definitely be much stronger than WB if he had gotten the Quake fruit as a kid or whenever WB got it. You're basically saying that the df makes no difference to your final potential as a fighter and Luffy would have by this point become just as strong without it, which makes no sense whatsoever. Why would anyone ever use a DF if this was the case.
2. Ah yes because getting power from inheritance means you'll be exactly as strong as your ancestor.

1. No I'm not "basically saying that" I'm saying that Zoro got a sword that allows him to do something he cannot do yet. Luffy was not handed something that allows him to do something he cannot do yet.

2. You are the one arguing that having a strong blood line is an unfair advantage and makes you strong. Those are your own words. You literally just wrote that. So your switch up that Luffy can't be at least as strong as Garp without a DF just makes absolutely no sense. Even if you want to say Luffy can'tget as strong as Garp, the fact that Garp is as strong as he is with just haki tells us Luffy (who has mastered all advanced forms of haki outside of his DF abilities) in base is still an absolute monster.

 

[LadyVados]

1. No I'm not "basically saying that" I'm saying that Zoro got a sword that allows him to do something he cannot do yet. Luffy was not handed something that allows him to do something he cannot do yet.

2. You are the one arguing that having a strong blood line is an unfair advantage and makes you strong. Those are your own words. You literally just wrote that. So your switch up that Luffy can't be at least as strong as Garp without a DF just makes absolutely no sense. Even if you want to say Luffy can'tget as strong as Garp, the fact that Garp is as strong as he is with just haki tells us Luffy (who has mastered all advanced forms of haki outside of his DF abilities) in base is still an absolute monster.

I didn't say he'd be as strong as Garp, but he is much stronger than he would be if he wasn't Garp's grandson. Those are 2 different things.

Luffy was handed the gomu gomu no which allowed him to do something he could not do before- stretch his body, tank bullets, etc.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I didn't say he'd be as strong as Garp, but he is much stronger than he would be if he wasn't Garp's grandson. Those are 2 different things.

Luffy was handed the gomu gomu no which allowed him to do something he could not do before- stretch his body, tank bullets, etc.

Oh my god. Can i ask how old you are? Because I'm going to feel very stupid if I have be debating an 11 year old this entire time. And I promise it's not an insult but you have a massive disconnect between what I'm writing and how you are responding.

And just so that I don't leave you hanging with an actual response to your question, Luffy was useless with his DF for many years after he ate it. So much so that Sabo and Ace were able to kick his ass regularly. It took years of training for Luffy to be competent with it.

Just like Zoro never won against Kuina and took him years of hard training to be a competent swordsman...

 

[LadyVados]

Oh my god. Can i ask how old you are? Because I'm going to feel very stupid if I have be debating an 11 year old this entire time. And I promise it's not an insult but you have a massive disconnect between what I'm writing and how you are responding.

And just so that I don't leave you hanging with an actual response to your question, Luffy was useless with his DF for many years after he ate it. So much so that Sabo and Ace were able to kick his ass regularly. It took years of training for Luffy to be competent with it.

Just like Zoro never won against Kuina and took him years of hard training to be a competent swordsman...

1. Sabo and Ace would have kicked Luffy’s ass worse if he didn’t have his DF.
2. Kuina was just stronger than Zoro, they were stated to be the 2 strongest fighter in the dojo, Zoro was a prodigy and was way above the other students, Kuina was just more exceptional.

 

[Pirate Queen]

1. Sabo and Ace would have kicked Luffy’s ass worse if he didn’t have his DF.
2. Kuina was just stronger than Zoro, they were stated to be the 2 strongest fighter in the dojo, Zoro was a prodigy and was way above the other students, Kuina was just more exceptional.

Neither of those points negate the fact that it took them years to master their fighting styles...

 

[LadyVados]

Neither of those points negate the fact that it took them years to master their fighting styles...

Ok… so ?

 

[XXGenesis]

The bottomlime of all things is: people who think Sanji is equal or stronger than Zoro are as deluded as people who think that Zoro is equal or stronger than Luffy.

We have 1000+ chapters as a basis for this hierarchy, many examples, proofs, and no amount of wishful thinking will ever change that.

You can think Zoro is using BOAT everytime he farts and CoC everytime he frowns, but the point is that Luffy is the captain. Luffy always took care of the strongest enemy. Zoro is the 1st mate, he takes care of the 2nd strongest.

Literally everything else is just a fanboy wetdream.

Lol it’s not a wet dream. It’s Oda, Nuanced way of keeping the top 3 fighter relatively close rivals.

Zoro is closer to Luffy than Sanji. Sanji is closer to Zoro than Luffy. Simple as that.

There is a gap between them. It shrinks in between the arcs and grows when it’s time to fight the other group of bad guys.

You can deny this because you don’t like Zoro being close to Luffy. Same way someone can deny Sanji is close to Zoro. It varies but they are very close at times

 

[LadyVados]

@goldb
New idea for a discussion rule, ban all any conversations about whether Enma is an unfair power-up. They never lead to any convulsive answer and are just toxic and become heated.