Discussion One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[AmitDS]

As a simple mind character (as Zoro) any tricky devil fruit have the edge over him.
Doflamingo is more clever, I can think he will manage to find a trick to beat Cracker if they face each other.


And I don't say that Doflamingo will win, but I think he's a more difficult opponent for Cracker than Luffy, because of his versatile abilty and intelligence.

Re-read that again lol.

Anyway, I think we're missing a facet of Cracker's kit here. He's not just biscuits, his CoA was hard enough to fight G4 and even cut halfway through Luffy's arm, while DD was being rag-dolled.
As far as we know and have seen, DD doesn't have AdCoC so having or not having basic CoC is moot here. And on the CoO front, Cracker's VC confirms he's a user of CoA, as we already know, and CoO.
I would say DD loses this fight probably high-diff.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

I will not call the number of time when Luffy Faced weaker opponents (Mr5, Mr3, Bellamy, beside DF Enel is weaker than Crocodile, Lucy without haki is also weaker than Croc and Enel because of logia etc... etc...)

whos lucy? you mean rob lucci? i really hope not

 

[AmitDS]

Spoiler

On another note, Sanji Vs. Queen isn't over

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Also there seems to be a flip side
It’s looking like king versus Zoro might conclude before queen versus sanji

 

[grey matter]

I've always been of the opinion that Kaidou identifies with Jack because he himself was basically the "Jack" of the Rox Pirates (with Whitebeard and Big Mom being his obvious superiors at the time). The youngling that gets picked on, desperately trying to do his best to be on his peer's level and constantly getting his ass kicked.

Also likely because, Jack was in his crew since we was a small Boi

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

I don't think Sanji defeated Queen lol. The chapter ended on a 'bad-ass' cliff-hanger with Sanji kicking Queen. The fight's most likely just going into its next phase showcasing Sanji's new "power" he unlocked and for all we know it will be done in tandem with Zoro's against King.

Spoiler

This seems increasingly more likely as we're getting a bunch of Zoro-centric plot points now.

And also, is DD really YC3? lol Looking back on it, I guess he was portrayed very high-tier cuz of his whole arc-boss thing and his SMILE plot with Kaido, Ceasar etc. but iirc, both Kaido and Jack called him 'weak.' This can offer us some clarity considering in the current arc, Kaido refused to call Jack 'weak.' If Jack and DD were on the same level I don't think Kaido would have any qualms calling him 'weak' lol. This could simply just be Kaido actually liking Jack as he was in his crew for at least 20 years but idk lol

I've always been of the opinion that Kaidou identifies with Jack because he himself was basically the "Jack" of the Rox Pirates (with Whitebeard and Big Mom being his obvious superiors at the time). The youngling that gets picked on, desperately trying to do his best to be on his peer's level and constantly getting his ass kicked.

Also likely because, Jack was in his crew since we was a small Boi

Kaido isn’t that sentimental, he doesn’t play when it comes to weakness and strength
He considers jack strong to a degree (he’s quite literally the 3rd strongest member of the crew after kaido )
I’m not saying those explanations aren’t possible but we currently have on panel explanations as to why currrently and not possible storybeats
Jack and kaido calling doffy weak , big mum believing cracker to be superior to doffy , cracker believing he’s up to the task , so we at least have 2 yonkou who believe or can imply and infer that their YC3 are superior to doffy

and in 3 instances haki , defense , speed/reaction time(g4 was blitzing doffy , cracker was comfortable in battle versus g4) cracker is superior to doflamingo comfortably using reliable opponents
The only instance that doffy is superior to doffy is his ability to take a punch really

 

[XXGenesis]

I just realized Jack never even used a named technique!!!!!! Damn talk about giving him the shaft Oda…Jack was just a benchmark to show how strong other characters were

 

[albertwv]

People who believe that end of WCI Luffy is stronger than Kata literally have no manga proof that he is except, "trust me bro"
When I showed panels of the fight and even suggested when Luffy finally surprassed Katakuri, in Udon Prison.
Whatever, I guess headcanon trumps manga facts

Sorry I mentioned Sanji vs Queen with Sanji the winner. This past week I've been trying to talk about the possibility of the fight ending and nobody bothered responding , so I just assumed everybody else thought the fight was over and that Sanji had won.
I do NOT think the fight is over, hopefully not, if not then it was super anti-climatic.
I do hope to see more of Queen.

 

[grey matter]

Big mum believes cracker to be superior to doflamingo ( again this is the author hyping up cracker ) big mum pirates probably have the best intelligence of all the yonkou introduced


performance versus gear 4
cracker comfortably reacts and blocks g4 luffy, doffy can't keep up and gets rag dolled around

doffy getting rag dolled and cant even compete

duration of battle
cracker versus luffy lasted 11 hours , doffy versus luffy was very short relatively , not even up to 2, heck

Spoiler: duration of battle

really luffy had to run and retreat

stamina , cracker stamina is elite, what he lacks is endurance really

Spoiler: haki comparison

casual slash from cracker does damage , meanwhile a named attack from doffyh got easily repelled by luffy in g 4

Kaido isn’t that sentimental, he doesn’t play when it comes to weakness and strength
He considers jack strong to a degree (he’s quite literally the 3rd strongest member of the crew after kaido )
I’m not saying those explanations aren’t possible but we currently have on panel explanations as to why currrently and not possible storybeats
Jack and kaido calling doffy weak , big mum believing cracker to be superior to doffy , cracker believing he’s up to the task , so we at least have 2 yonkou who believe or can imply and infer that their YC3 are superior to doffy

and in 3 instances haki , defense , speed/reaction time(g4 was blitzing doffy , cracker was comfortable in battle versus g4) cracker is superior to doflamingo comfortably using reliable opponents
The only instance that doffy is superior to doffy is his ability to take a punch really

Why are we forgetting that Doflamingo was kinda hard countered by G4 Luffy?
He can expand and contract at will, and G4 is simultaneously armament hardened and rubbery

Doflamingo still needed 2 rounds of G4

Cracker would've been folded in one round of G4 if Luffy had intel on Cracker. In fact, he was almost about to one shot him after getting through his biscuit warriors, before he conveniently ran out of time.

And again, it kinda comes down to matchups.
Current Zoro, for eg, would low-mid diff Cracker. While Zoro might actually lose to Doflamingo.

As for Cracker vs Doflamingo.
Pretty sure his strings can immobilize the biscuits. His strings have immobilized characters much stronger than the biscuits. And if there are any gaps in the biscuit warrior, Cracker hiding inside goes down swiftly
If Cracker is outside the biscuit, it's an easy win for Doflamingo, since the guy is basically glass canon.


Also, you're overrating the biscuit warriors. They aren't that tanky. G4 Luffy one shotted countless number of them:




As for Jack, it does seem like he is the "kid" of the Kaido crew.
Kinda like how Shanks, Buggy, Marco, Vista etc were in WB/Roger crew. Joined the crews as chibis
Kaido probably isn't as harsh as usual to him.

 

[AmitDS]

Sorry I mentioned Sanji vs Queen with Sanji the winner. This past week I've been trying to talk about the possibility of the fight ending and nobody bothered responding , so I just assumed everybody else thought the fight was over and that Sanji had won.
I do NOT think the fight is over, hopefully not, if not then it was super anti-climatic.
I do hope to see more of Queen.

Spoiler

I'm glad the fight didn't conclude yet with Sanji finishing off Queen with one attack after his "awakening." It also would've been really anti-climactic as you said. I mean.. even Jack the Drag-down got an announcement of his defeat xD
I guess now Queen will lean more into his cyborg stuff as I think we have already seen the extent of his DF.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 25, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 25, 2021 ---

Cracker would've been folded in one round of G4 if Luffy had intel on Cracker. In fact, he was almost about to one shot him after getting through his biscuit warriors, before he conveniently ran out of time.

Cracker was fighting G4. Cracker was cutting through Luffy's G4 arm. Luffy won because of Nami softening his biscuits, enabling him to eat them and go into Tankman.

And again, it kinda comes down to matchups.
Current Zoro, for eg, would low-mid diff Cracker. While Zoro might actually lose to Doflamingo.

So Current Zoro will lose to DD but win against someone who has superior armament haki than DD? Makes sense.

As for Cracker vs Doflamingo.
Pretty sure his strings can immobilize the biscuits. His strings have immobilized characters much stronger than the biscuits. And if there are any gaps in the biscuit warrior, Cracker hiding inside goes down swiftly
If Cracker is outside the biscuit, it's an easy win for Doflamingo, since the guy is basically glass canon.

So Cracker will see DD's strings coming for him inside biscuit holes and say, "aight, guess I'll die." Got it.

Also, you're overrating the biscuit warriors. They aren't that tanky. G4 Luffy one shotted countless number of them:

You need G4 level haki to break them, that's what makes them tanky and that's without Cracker's armament haki applied.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Spoiler

I'm glad the fight didn't conclude yet with Sanji finishing off Queen with one attack after his "awakening." It also would've been really anti-climactic as you said. I mean.. even Jack the Drag-down got an announcement of his defeat xD
I guess now Queen will lean more into his cyborg stuff as I think we have already seen the extent of his DF.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 25, 2021, Original Post Date: Nov 25, 2021 ---

Cracker was fighting G4. Cracker was cutting through Luffy's G4 arm. Luffy won because of Nami softening his biscuits, enabling him to eat them and go into Tankman.



So Current Zoro will lose to DD but win against someone who has superior armament haki than DD? Makes sense.



So Cracker will see DD's strings coming for him inside biscuit holes and say, "aight, guess I'll die." Got it.



You need G4 level haki to break them, that's what makes them tanky and that's without Cracker's armament haki applied.

It's clear Cracker is well stronger than Doflamingo and a more difficult opponent for almost anyone bar the Yonko to fight. Without intel, the opponent is doomed as even if they are able to defeat a single biscuit soldier, he has almost limitless coming. He's a one man army with tanky and powerful soldiers in his wake. Freakishly strong CoA and pretty mischievous in combat.

The only thing helping Doflamingo damage Cracker's biscuit soldiers would be his awakened strings. Doffy himself however is too weak to deal any meaningful damage to a single biscuit soldier.

It's going to be an obvious win for Cracker but the difficulty would depend on Doflamingo's versatility.
Without Intel, he's losing quickly, with Intel however, it might get slightly difficult for Cracker. Slightly...

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 25, 2021 ---

G4 Luffy one shotted countless number of them:

You do know how powerful G4 Luffy is right? Very few commanders can handle him in that form. Doffy acknowledged G3 punches would be enough to do him in if only they weren't slow. Same punches couldn't scratch a single biscuit soldier. Cracker's a nightmare to fight.

 

[Ricko]

I think many people are just to much focus on G4 Luffy as reference for all fights... What I think is really wrong.

Just one element could turn Cracker to top tier God commander to not so godly.
Does Dofli awaken devil fruit can turn Biscuit soldier to thread ?

We know that Law DF got a limit to his opponent haki, but what define this limit ?
As we saw in fight with Vergo, this guy have a better CoA than Law, but was weaker in overall as he was effected by his power.

Dofli was able to unfrozen himself for Aokiji, something Jozu couldn't manage. And we all believe that Jozu CoA must be at least as strong as Cracker's.

G4 Luffy is only a measurment in speed and pure strength. Cracker is good in both, this guy got a incredible CoA.
Devil fruit are also a really important part of the fight.
Dofly would have parasite Luffy in G4 mode and not normal mode, it was game over.

It's the reason why I say, CoA is important, but we don't know the difference in other form of Haki.
We know that :
Cracker CoA > Dofly CoA

But we don't know if
Cracker CoA + CoO > Dofly CoA + CoO + CoC
And the effect it have over DF

Hope you get my point.

 

[AmitDS]

Does Dofli awaken devil fruit can turn Biscuit soldier to thread ?

I don't think that's how it works lol Or if he can in fact turn others' DF stuff into his DF material that'd be broken. But then that opens up a new discussion as to the limits of awakenings and we don't have enough info on that as yet xD So I'll just refrain from discussing this idea.

Dofli was able to unfrozen himself for Aokiji, something Jozu couldn't manage. And we all believe that Jozu CoA must be at least as strong as Cracker's.

Pre-TS is known for shaky haki usage as it was pretty much really established and fleshed out post-ts lol so I won't put too much stock into Jozu's helplessness against DD's parasite strings. This also is moot considering Luffy broke free of his parasite strings in his fight when he activated G4. Based on the description of the attack as well, it's a string that penetrates your neck and goes to connect to your spine. I see no reason why a proficient CoA user can't block it. I think the whole G4 Luffy breaking free thing actually supports this.

Spoiler

Luffy being controlled by Parasite String:

Luffy activates G4 and is freed:

It's the reason why I say, CoA is important, but we don't know the difference in other form of Haki.
We know that :
Cracker CoA > Dofly CoA

But we don't know if
Cracker CoA + CoO > Dofly CoA + CoO + CoC
And the effect it have over DF

As I said above, DD doesn't have AdCoC as far as we know or have seen. So based on that, him having regular CoC vs. Cracker who doesn't, isn't doing anything for him really lol
And as we know, Cracker's CoA is vastly superior to DD's using G4 as a benchmark. The same G4 Luffy that was dominating DD in the prior arc, was being handled fairly well by Cracker thanks to his CoA after Luffy uncovered his true body.
Regarding CoO, from what we've seen, the only form that has clear superiority to others' CoO is FS like with Katakuri and now Luffy. So both DD and Cracker squaring off with ~the same level of CoO is not an advantage to any of them really.
So in all, this fight boils down to CoA.

 

[albertwv]

And we're back on the Cracker vs DD.
My money goes to Cracker
The thing is with Cracker, Oda did him bad, real bad. For the first Yonko Commander fight Luffy has, and we only see a small portion of the fight, Oda handled that badly.
Oda post TS handles a lot of important fights by simply off-screening them.

 

[Fallou]

And we're back on the Cracker vs DD.
My money goes to Cracker
The thing is with Cracker, Oda did him bad, real bad. For the first Yonko Commander fight Luffy has, and we only see a small portion of the fight, Oda handled that badly.
Oda post TS handles a lot of important fights by simply off-screening them.

To be fair, there were a lot more fights post TS than pre-TS, so some of them had to have less time...

 

[XXGenesis]

Doflamingo’s DF ability & his skill with it is very impressive. It’s what makes him such a big threat on top of some pretty decent physical stats.

Doffy’s Puppet String is pretty haxx manipulation ability but it can be dodged & countered..ex Fujitora cutting the sting before it attached to him

Doffy is low end YC3 because he has good endurance & high DF skill. But he lacks compared to the others in Haki & strength. He’s able to control Jozu but, would he be able to hurt him???? I think not. Who’s physically stronger? Easily Jozu. Doflamingo is more than likely faster & way more versatile because of his DF…

Doffy’s DF doesn’t make him invincible just a tricky opponent. No character is truly invincible..Just have to figure out & understand their ability…I.e that’s what Zoro meant when he says he has to figure King’s race to win.

 

[zetsu banned]

Doffy’s DF doesn’t make him invincible just a tricky opponent. No character is truly invincible..Just have to figure out & understand their ability…I.e that’s what Zoro meant when he says he has to figure King’s race to win.

This is what makes Doffy vs Cracker so interesting imo. Both are characters that make powerscaling feel kinda silly, because they're obviously below their 'betters' in terms of overall/specific stats, but their DF are so crazy broken that it's hard to imagine how fights with each other or those 'betters' would go.

 

[Fallou]

This is what makes Doffy vs Cracker so interesting imo. Both are characters that make powerscaling feel kinda silly, because they're obviously below their 'betters' in terms of overall/specific stats, but their DF are so crazy broken that it's hard to imagine how fights with each other or those 'betters' would go.

Doffy and Cracker had amazingly well developed and exploited DF abilities!

I kinda miss the good old "ability" fights, when figuring out an opponent's power mattered as much as having killer haki...
Cracker sorta was the last of these, and this is something One Piece lost lately.

Especially in Wano: nothing very complicated about Zoan abilities, so all you need is superior hitting/cutting power.
I think Oda wrote himself into a corner with this Zoan-only theme, and the story is the poorer for it.

 

[AmitDS]

Doffy and Cracker had amazingly well developed and exploited DF abilities!

I kinda miss the good old "ability" fights, when figuring out an opponent's power mattered as much as having killer haki...
Cracker sorta was the last of these, and this is something One Piece lost lately.

Especially in Wano: nothing very complicated about Zoan abilities, so all you need is superior hitting/cutting power.
I think Oda wrote himself into a corner with this Zoan-only theme, and the story is the poorer for it.

No idea why he didn't try to give Kaido's crew a few mythical Zoans based on many cultures' myths,so as to get some logia and paremecia like powers instead of wacky interpretations on dinosaur abilities.

Kaido could've been the yellow dragon with his commanders and Yamato being the 4 sacred beasts (Black Turtle, Azure Dragon, White Tiger & Vermillion Bird), for example.

 

[Fallou]

No idea why he didn't try to give Kaido's crew a few mythical Zoans based on many cultures' myths,so as to get some logia and paremecia like powers instead of wacky interpretations on dinosaur abilities.

Kaido could've been the yellow dragon with his commanders and Yamato being the 4 sacred beasts (Black Turtle, Azure Dragon, White Tiger & Vermillion Bird), for example.

He literaly had a shitton of inspiration he could have drawn from, but he chose dinosaurs, which haven't been cool since 1993