One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Let's wait and see. The next arc will give us a more accurate picture.
She'll likely join the strawhats, plus we will see Luffy using advanced conq on characters who can be damaged normally

Marco actually fought BM for a few chapters too IIRC, with the fighting ending with each going their separate ways, with BM commenting that she doesn't want to waste her time and energy putting him down. And he immediately went onto 1v2 King + Queen for hours, while spending energy healing up thousands of soldiers.
Law and Kid collectively already are Yonko tier. They've forced BM beyond her limits. The BM they're facing is on juice,

I'll admit I was wrong about low diff though. I re-read the fight, she did better than I had remembered.
She can give him to low-mid diff, mid diff if we're pushing it. I think you have to be admiral tier to push Kaido to any further difficulty, don't think she (or anyone among allies except Luffy) is admiral level.

Next arc, nah, he feats right now have solidified her. It's not even 100% that she will be the next crewmate. ACOC is an ability meant for top tiers or people closing in on that level.

Marco didn't fight BM much nor did Marco damage her, What Yamato did was more impressive. Big Mama parted ways because she didn't want to waste resources on Marco. Yamato's feats were better against the stronger opponent.

Law and Kidd as a duo are Yonko tier, but I'm basing them off their individual strength.


So you say she's not getting low-diffed then continue to say LOW-med dif, just saying med-dif. And that's not pushing it.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 26, 2021, Original Post Date: Dec 26, 2021 ---

Can you show us where he has exceptional haki techniques? And this isn't to be confrontational but he didn't show us anything. So to imply we can't deduce he had no exceptional haki usage doesn't really make sense. We saw him go all out and he didn't do anything outside of coating his blade.

It's like saying Kaido has Advanced CoO despite not showing it because it's laughable up he doesn't.

Just because you are a top tier fighter doesn't mean you have top tier haki by default.

He needs to show usage of advanced CoA or he simply doesn't have it.

You do not need advanced techniques to be a good haki user. To be a good haki user, you simply need good haki; if your basic coating allows you to fight on a high level, you're a good haki user. Even with regular haki and swordplay, King was still Zoro's superior, the same Zoro with good enough arms haki to bust through Kaido's scales. Zoro is the only person with regular haki and no special techniques to be able to break through Kaido's scales, and that's because his regular arms were still enough, and King is his superior.

Oda himself already hinted at this. Sanji, Jinbei and Luffy were all running in the castle yet Sanji knew what was going on in the pleasure hall, despite Luffy being the user of an advanced observation technique. King's arms haki is good without needing to know ryou or anything like that.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Next arc, nah, he feats right now have solidified her. It's not even 100% that she will be the next crewmate. ACOC is an ability meant for top tiers or people closing in on that level.

Marco didn't fight BM much nor did Marco damage her, What Yamato did was more impressive. Big Mama parted ways because she didn't want to waste resources on Marco. Yamato's feats were better against the stronger opponent.

Law and Kidd as a duo are Yonko tier, but I'm basing them off their individual strength.


So you say she's not getting low-diffed then continue to say LOW-med dif, just saying med-dif. And that's not pushing it.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 26, 2021, Original Post Date: Dec 26, 2021 ---

You do not need advanced techniques to be a good haki user. To be a good haki user, you simply need good haki; if your basic coating allows you to fight on a high level, you're a good haki user. Even with regular haki and swordplay, King was still Zoro's superior, the same Zoro with good enough arms haki to bust through Kaido's scales. Zoro is the only person with regular haki and no special techniques to be able to break through Kaido's scales, and that's because his regular arms were still enough, and King is his superior.

Oda himself already hinted at this. Sanji, Jinbei and Luffy were all running in the castle yet Sanji knew what was going on in the pleasure hall, despite Luffy being the user of an advanced observation technique. King's arms haki is good without needing to know ryou or anything like that.

Katakuri has better usage of CoA and even admits to using a form of it that surpasses armament with Block Mochi. King just uses simple coating. There is a massive difference in their use of haki overall.


Nothing of what you said was correct.

Zoro was able to scar Kaido because Enma pulled his CoC into the blade, thus allowing him to hurt Kaido... zoro was not using normal haki.

 

[AmitDS]

I just re-read the Marco - King & Queen clash.. i dont see Marco made King bleed, Yes Marco definitely made Queen bleed but not King...

Re-read the fight again then lol, specifically Chapter 1006:

Marco's knee strike:

Spoiler

King gets up from the rubble with blood coming from his mouth:

Spoiler

In both panels you can also see that King is in Defense Mode as well.

Spoiler

Bonus: This was an exhausted Marco, as per Perospero, for whatever that's worth in powerscaling

 

[Fox666]

Is it really a surprise Marco can injury King even in defense mode?

It seems he can make a forcefield or something with his fire, but Marco's fire should be superior

 

[slavkovski]

Re-read the fight again then lol, specifically Chapter 1006:

Marco's knee strike:

Spoiler

King gets up from the rubble with blood coming from his mouth:

Spoiler

In both panels you can also see that King is in Defense Mode as well.

Spoiler

Bonus: This was an exhausted Marco, as per Perospero, for whatever that's worth in powerscaling

So if that's confirmed as blood and Oda is consistent with this is either A) Marco has advCoC also or B) Marco's ability is special
Because if it's only a standard CoA or hell.. If Marco use AdvCoA, why do he seems to have to makes Zoro to use AdvCoC to cut King? I mean.. He could just make Zoro using stronger CoA to cut King right?

 

[Rein Avara]

So if that's confirmed as blood and Oda is consistent with this is either A) Marco has advCoC also or B) Marco's ability is special
Because if it's only a standard CoA or hell.. If Marco use AdvCoA, why do he seems to have to makes Zoro to use AdvCoC to cut King? I mean.. He could just make Zoro using stronger CoA to cut King right?

You don't NEED Advanced CoC to hurt King, Zoro just needed to figure out how when to attack. Having Advanced CoC is a good addition but it's not crucial to defeating King, the key to doing so are his flames (i.e when they're dim his defense is weaker so that's the optimal time to strike).

 

[Windfall Island]

We have never seen WB or Roger fight against "normal" Yonko's before. So, I am not really sure where this higher tier came about.

Not denying WB or Roger wouldn't win, but we have no idea what the difficulty would be.

No need to apologise. Just a good discussion

The way i see it is :- a young prime version of mike tyson/muhammad ali vs their weak & old 72 years old version of themselves. Their young prime peak versions should be able to beat the hell out of their 72 year old selves right..fairly easily.
Similarly Prime WB must be that much stronger than old WB (yonko lvl). When you are that stronger then i think its safe to put them in a seperate tier.

Ofcourse it would be cool to see a pk pvl person vs yonko lvl to get the exact idea of difference in strength gap...but till then i think more likely than not , prime WB had to be much much stronger than a 72 years old version of himself, let alone the old & sick WB with so many handicaps like squardo stab & heart attack at the worst possible moment etc stacked against him.

Thats why i think luffy still has lot to grow to reack prime xebec/ roger/ prime wb lvl.

 

[AmitDS]

So if that's confirmed as blood

There isn't any grey area here, it's blood lol

this is either A) Marco has advCoC also or B) Marco's ability is special
Because if it's only a standard CoA or hell.. If Marco use AdvCoA, why do he seems to have to makes Zoro to use AdvCoC to cut King? I mean.. He could just make Zoro using stronger CoA to cut King right?

I go with c) Marco was simply strong enough to damage Defense Mode King. Marco doesn't have AdCoC because he doesn't have CoC as far as we know from the manga and VCs. You can even see that there isn't any visual cues in Marco's knee strike to indicate that AdCoC or even AdCoA was being used (black lightning, aura, etc.).

I'm not going to get into why Oda chose Power Up A over Power Up B, C or D because we don't know, but I will say that Oda probably wanted Zoro to finally show CoC in a flashy way and also have him parallel Rayleigh in a way too.

Overall, effectively damaging King requires you to either wait to attack when he's in Speed Mode for his weaker durability or be outright strong enough (like Marco) to bust though his Defense Mode durability. Zoro pre-AdCoC failed to be the latter.

 

[slavkovski]

You don't NEED Advanced CoC to hurt King, Zoro just needed to figure out how when to attack. Having Advanced CoC is a good addition but it's not crucial to defeating King, the key to doing so are his flames (i.e when they're dim his defense is weaker so that's the optimal time to strike).

The problem is in the fight vs Marco it is shown that King still has his flames, that mean he still have his ultimate defense on..
It's almost like oda doesn't bother to make a strict rule with his character abilities limitation and just make it up on a whim..

 

[Crimson Ice]

Katakuri has better usage of CoA and even admits to using a form of it that surpasses armament with Block Mochi. King just uses simple coating. There is a massive difference in their use of haki overall.


Nothing of what you said was correct.

Zoro was able to scar Kaido because Enma pulled his CoC into the blade, thus allowing him to hurt Kaido... zoro was not using normal haki.

Oh boy, you can't read, Where did I ever compare King to Katakuri? Once again you're not reading my post. You did nothing but state what Katakuri uses, when my whole post is about that not using advanced techniques doesn't mean you're bad at haki. King uses normal coating, but his regular coating is at a high level.

Not to mention, Zoro harmed Kaido multiplied times before he scarred him, the most blatant being the tatsumaki. Zoro was using normal arms haki then.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Oh boy, you can't read, Where did I ever compare King to Katakuri? Once again you're not reading my post. You did nothing but state what Katakuri uses, when my whole post is about that not using advanced techniques doesn't mean you're bad at haki. King uses normal coating, but his regular coating is at a high level.

Not to mention, Zoro harmed Kaido multiplied times before he scarred him, the most blatant being the tatsumaki. Zoro was using normal arms haki then.

What high level haki usage are you seeing? He's coating his blade... that's it. What high levels are you seeing? Show me.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

What high level haki usage are you seeing? He's coating his blade... that's it. What high levels are you seeing? Show me.

you aint gonna be yc1 without using haki at a high level man come on.

 

[Pirate Queen]

you aint gonna be yc1 without using haki at a high level man come on.

Then you have no problem showing me what King did that was extra ordinary with Haki. Because coating your blade in haki is basic for sword wielders.

In comparison to Katakuri, his CoA usage was less than.

Katakuri showed EXTRA ORDINARY abilities with both CoA and CoO in the way of Block Mochi and Future Sight. That's literally all I'm saying and some people can't even admit that much

 

[slavkovski]

It's just cross my mind, how fast is King when he turn off his fire compared to if he dont turn it off? Is it significant? And why the need for him to do it against Zoro? I mean Zoro never known to be the fastest in the SH crew..

 

[Pirate Queen]

It's just cross my mind, how fast is King when he turn off his fire compared to if he dont turn it off? Is it significant? And why the need for him to do it against Zoro? I mean Zoro never known to be the fastest in the SH crew..

Fast enough to vanish in front of Zoro who was focused entirely on him. In 1035. Page 14 it was almost like Zoro let King hit him so he could counter with ACoC because of hoe fast King was.

Seems significant to me, but Zoro is hardly a CoO specialist or (like you said) the fastest SH. His reflexes are solid tho

 

[grey matter]

It's just cross my mind, how fast is King when he turn off his fire compared to if he dont turn it off? Is it significant? And why the need for him to do it against Zoro? I mean Zoro never known to be the fastest in the SH crew..

King with flames is around the same combat speed as Zoro, but bit lower, in his base. Above him in hybrid or Zoan form, but again around same ballpark.

King without flames basically pulled on Zoro, what Sanji pulled on Queen. Be so fast that he basically disappeared. I think Zoro used his observation haki to sense where King would attack and strike him there

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

I'm liking this new discussion about first commanders and who's stronger even if the gap is pretty much close between them.

It's obvious Katakuri seems to be stronger than King who in turn is weaker than Marco. Shiryu and Beckmann are the only 2 left to be seen in combat. I don't like Shiryu's portrayal given how scared he was of Magellan from what I can remember but Beckmann's is pretty solid.

I once stated that Katakuri would easily replicate what Marco did to King and Queen during their first few exchanges cos fighting an opponent you've never faced before is not going to be an easy task especially if they are the tricky type.
Queen and King looked as stupid as Luffy did vs Katakuri when they tried attacking a fresh Marco and their attacks passed through - except Marco actually takes damages and heals in exchange for stamina, whereas Katakuri tricks you into thinking your attacks (even with Haki) are basically useless. Switch Marco and Katakuri at that point and King and Queen would look even more stupid given all we know about Katakuri, his DF and insane FS, but that's only for the very first encounter until they get smart enough to understand what's going on or get smacked till they're fed up of his BS. I predict it's the latter given Queen is a man of science his IQ should be up there and then the rest of the fight pans out as Marco's or better as future sight doesn't require stamina unlike Marco's regeneration.

It's either Marco > Katakuri > King or Katakuri > Marco > King

If I include headcannon and portrayal, I'd say Beckmann's > Katakuri > Marco > King > Shillew.



Something interesting to note and of course this largely depends on if you are among those who feel skysplit = Yonko level (I won't lie it sure looks it) or if you're among those who prefer to play it safe like the case of Kaido ambiguously confirming Zoro is in the CoC party.
People say: "If it looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, then it's surely a duck"

Now just as the skysplit trend is confirmed for Yonko level fighters. Another trend Oda seems to be going at is when a Yonko tries to recruit another Yonko's 1st commander, it clearly means his own 1st commander is superior to his rival's.

First example: Shanks casually recruiting Marco who would lose 1st commander status should he join the RHP before Shanks vs Whitebeard.

Second example: Big Mom casually recruiting King who would also lose 1st commander status should he join the BMP before Big Mom vs Kaido.

In both cases it implies Shanks and Big Mom's 1st commander are stronger while also giving the narrative that they are low-key insulting Whitebeard and Kaido respectively.


Low key: Now my boy Zoro is in the 1st commander party

Mihawk should start watching his back.

 

[I Am Atomic]

First example: Shanks casually recruiting Marco who would lose 1st commander status should he join the RHP before Shanks vs Whitebeard.

Second example: Big Mom casually recruiting King who would also lose 1st commander status should he join the BMP before Big Mom vs Kaido.

I have never thought of it that way but it does make sense doesn't it? Well spotted

YC1 positions are very diverse in power as we have seen with Marco, King and Katakuri.
In OP world, there is no such thing as YC1+ since it's clearly fan made level.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

YC1 positions are very diverse in power as we have seen with Marco, King and Katakuri.

The 1st commanders are pretty much close I'd say with the most unique abilities. As we've seen with Zoro, it's either a high or extreme difficulty when 2 such fighters go at it.

Queen spoilt the Marco vs King fight, it was definitely going to be a high diff fight for Marco but Queen's interference meant he was going to lose even though he looked good while at it.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 27, 2021, Original Post Date: Dec 27, 2021 ---

I have never thought of it that way but it does make sense doesn't it? Well spotted

Thanks

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 27, 2021 ---

I think Zoro used his observation haki to sense where King would attack and strike him there

O you're good. No thinking that's exactly what happened.

Zoro's always had great reaction time. Add basic CoO to that and he just keeps giving.

Post Wano Zoro should be able to edge out the rest of the 1st commanders or tie. Would really love to see him fight Vista before going for Mihawk (in my head, Vista's the second Strongest Swordsman).

Given Mihawk's praise for Vista, I'd like to think his swordsmanship and strength is pretty decent. Obviously at this point, Zoro's defeating him without too much difficulty.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Luffy need to try to recruit Beckman for the circle to be complete