One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[grey matter]

I think Kizaru and Enel are bound to be first…
Afterwards, it’s anyone’s guess, but Sanji’s speed does seem to rate pretty high. Kata and Luffy’s aren’t anything to laugh at either.

My problem with Kizaru having light speed is that no one should realistically be able to catch up with him, even with FS. Of course, this is OP, so we’re not too bound by real world rules.
And he could have bad reflexes, that would compensate. After all, other than his DF, he IS a slow guy (the way he talks, moves, etc…)

Was Katakuri high in pure speed? I don't remember it being that way. But that he had amazing CQC due to future sight+ mochi body.

Kizaru has pure speed as light speed. But his reflex, attack rate (attack speed) etc are not. So, combat speed vise, dealing with him isn't that hard.

Enel isn't even top 20 in speed.

Why not? Who has faster pure speed than him except Kizaru?

I'm not talking about CQC/combat speed here

 

[M3J]

I think Kizaru and Enel are bound to be first…
Afterwards, it’s anyone’s guess, but Sanji’s speed does seem to rate pretty high. Kata and Luffy’s aren’t anything to laugh at either.

My problem with Kizaru having light speed is that no one should realistically be able to catch up with him, even with FS. Of course, this is OP, so we’re not too bound by real world rules.
And he could have bad reflexes, that would compensate. After all, other than his DF, he IS a slow guy (the way he talks, moves, etc…)

I think this would be one thing we'd see in whoever his opponent is, perhaps Sanji: how they deal with his speed and beat him.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Was Katakuri high in pure speed? I don't remember it being that way. But that he had amazing CQC due to future sight+ mochi body.

Kizaru has pure speed as light speed. But his reflex, attack rate (attack speed) etc are not. So, combat speed vise, dealing with him isn't that hard.



Why not? Who has faster pure speed than him except Kizaru?

I'm not talking about CQC/combat speed here

Pure speed?Enel is not fast. Despite having Goro and observation he was tagged or had his attacks reacted to be pre gears Luffy. If Enel was top 10 in speed I don't care what fruit Luffy had, Enel would have won.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Pure speed?Enel is not fast. Despite having Goro and observation he was tagged or had his attacks reacted to be pre gears Luffy. If Enel was top 10 in speed I don't care what fruit Luffy had, Enel would have won.

Nah enel was landing a ton of hits on luffy , and was easily reacting even, luffy just made him and attacks ineffective which threw him off mentally and ruined his COO/mantra

Also among masters of COO, we gotta put respect on enel , his are application and area of scope and fine tuning was CRAZY

 

[Crimson Ice]

Nah enel was landing a ton of hits on luffy , and was easily reacting even, luffy just made him and attacks ineffective which threw him off mentally and ruined his COO/mantra

Also among masters of COO, we gotta put respect on enel , his are application and area of scope and fine tuning was CRAZY

Where did my post say anything about Enel hitting Luffy? The fact is if Enel was really top 10 in speed, he should have NEVER gotten hit by Luffy. Being thrown off by his rubber body isn't valid because that shouldn't have applied to him after the initial shock. At the start of Waters 7, Luffy couldn't tag Blueno when he wanted to dodge, yet he's smacking Enel about. Enel is a fraud and massively overrated; the fact Skypiea Luffy could TRACK Enel disqualifies him from this conversation.

Put A LEGITIMATE top tier speedster in Skypiea and they don't get hit a single time, haki or not.

 

[grey matter]

Pure speed?Enel is not fast. Despite having Goro and observation he was tagged or had his attacks reacted to be pre gears Luffy. If Enel was top 10 in speed I don't care what fruit Luffy had, Enel would have won.

Yeah, cause his CQC isn't that good. Still better than Luffy back then, but not anywhere close to being top tier relative to current times.

CQC/ Combat speed and pure speed are different. This is why old Rayleigh was fighting equally with Kizaru, and reacting to all his attacks. Not cause he's light speed, but his combat speed more than makes up

I'm talking about pure speed. No CQC, no combat.

Say Enel just choose to circle around Luffy without even bothering to attack him.
I don't see anyone except Kizaru being faster

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2021, Original Post Date: Dec 31, 2021 ---

Nah enel was landing a ton of hits on luffy , and was easily reacting even, luffy just made him and attacks ineffective which threw him off mentally and ruined his COO/mantra

Also among masters of COO, we gotta put respect on enel , his are application and area of scope and fine tuning was CRAZY

Enel has the best basic observation haki in the series. And it's not even close, he blows the competition out of the water!

Almost country level range, being able to hear what everyone is saying and sense what everyone is doing in this range

 

[Urek Mazino]

I always had a problem with Luffy beating Enel.

He is very fast, has one of the best logia fruits with awesome CoO and he lost to pre-gear Luffy. That just doesn't make sense.

Luffy's immunity to lightning should not have been such a big deal, there are many ways he could have defeated him without directly attacking with lightning but imho he was introduced too early in the story and nerfed way too much.

 

[McNuss]

Yeah... as it stands I have him above King and Katakuri in part because Yamato is even higher than that. It feels weird to have him so high, but the little bit we do know about him kinda necessitates it. Whitebeard's crew was just straight up STACKED.

But that was Yamato from two years ago.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Yeah, cause his CQC isn't that good. Still better than Luffy back then, but not anywhere close to being top tier relative to current times.

CQC/ Combat speed and pure speed are different. This is why old Rayleigh was fighting equally with Kizaru, and reacting to all his attacks. Not cause he's light speed, but his combat speed more than makes up

I'm talking about pure speed. No CQC, no combat.

Say Enel just choose to circle around Luffy without even bothering to attack him.
I don't see anyone except Kizaru being faster

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 31, 2021, Original Post Date: Dec 31, 2021 ---

Enel has the best basic observation haki in the series. And it's not even close, he blows the competition out of the water!

Almost country level range, being able to hear what everyone is saying and sense what everyone is doing in this range

No, Enel is still slow. People could react to his lightning and he was still able to be tracked by multiple characters. Enel isn't even faster than Enis Lobby Luffy.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Enel is the prefect example if why I rank Based on Battle IQ. Without Battle IQ even the strongest fighters are reduced to fodder in the right circumstance

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Like enel and crocodile are relative high tiers who would dominate in the new world but luffy would have folded if tried to
It’s just kinda plot and kick
Enel would look dominant at marineford
The fight with luffy would take him down a leg cause till then he felt he was untouchable and unbeatable , he was severely mentally compromised which would affect his COO, I think even his strongest attacks would faze a yonkou
Pre to skip enel could probably give doflamingo , jack , cracker a really tough fight
Heck he and crocodile probably one shot pacifistas back then

 

[albertwv]

People like to overrate Enel because of his Lightning DF. Take away his DF and he is a Grand Line scrub. His CoO was amazing because it was the first time we've seen it, but in reality it was nothing amazing.
HE was able to hear everyone's conversations, I read somewhere it was due to his lightning DF somehow, he received transmissions through his lightning waves, something like that not sure.
His DF is amazing and deadly to Paradise GL, but in New World, he would be decimated by veterans. His combat speed is rather slow. Pre TS Lucci would kill him if he had CoA back then.
Take away his DF and he is not anything great, just like many Logias who are overconfident and heavily rely on their DFs.

Give Doffy or Cracker trouble? Lol no freaking way.
Even Luffy told him, there are monsters down in the blue sea. Enel would NOT dominate in the NW unless he trained and got stronger but in his current self? No way. His CoO was pretty basic. Look at how Boa sisters fought base Luffy and G2 Luffy. As soon as Luffy used G2, their CoO lost track of Luffy. So no his CoO would lose track of many New World speed fighters.

 

[Core D. Roy]

People like to overrate Enel because of his Lightning DF. Take away his DF and he is a Grand Line scrub. His CoO was amazing because it was the first time we've seen it, but in reality it was nothing amazing.

Then again a DF-less Enel living in the Grand Line wouldn't have rested on his laurels. Haki blooms in life-or-death battles, bla bla bla. Enel never advanced because he basically had no reason/way to advance meaningfully.

I rate Enel pretty high in part because of his sheer potential, but also I see a lot of people poo-pooing his battle IQ. Even with Luffy's impossible-to-predict natural immunity to lightning, Enel quickly changed things up and fought with a spear while also using his power in a REALLY clever way to trap Luffy's mobility with molten gold. Frankly, Luffy got away from that fight alive because of just as much plot armor as his fights with Crocodile.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Plot armour this plot armour that. Crocodile wasn't that strong when he lost to Luffy; Oda messed up and inflated his power at Marineford. Enel wasn't that strong either, take any top tier who's a Devil Fruit user and remove their fruit and haki and they beat the piss out of everyone on Skypiea. Fruitless Kuzan, Fruitless Akainu, Fruitless Big Mam etc. Enel was just not that guy; he's what Pekoms explained, an overconfident logia because nobody around him can hit him. Enel's heart got stopped by a reject dial and would have died if it wasn't for his fruit restarting his heart. Put skypiea Enel in the New World, and his ass gets tossed around.

 

[grey matter]

I always had a problem with Luffy beating Enel.

He is very fast, has one of the best logia fruits with awesome CoO and he lost to pre-gear Luffy. That just doesn't make sense.

Luffy's immunity to lightning should not have been such a big deal, there are many ways he could have defeated him without directly attacking with lightning but imho he was introduced too early in the story and nerfed way too much.

Yeah, it was Crocodile done all over again. An OP villain who got introduced too early.

Especially true for Enel. He one shotted every character in the arc, including Zoro

Enel did actually defeat Luffy the first time. He trapped him in gold and threw him away. Giving gold as "present".
Could've thrown him into the sea/water if he really wanted to.

He had amazing potential overall, great intellect, and his DF mastery is top tier even today.

IIRC Oda said his bounty would've been 500 million. This was back when bounties didn't get crazy. 500 million was probably considered commander level, considering Ace's bounty

Would be amazing if he trained and came back, with an army of minions from moon lol. With armament haki and all.

But that was Yamato from two years ago.

Ace was 18 during the fight, Yamato 24

Ace grew for 2 more years before he died. Yamato 4 more since then. But Ace's growth rate is far higher.
So they probably ended up at around same level

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 1, 2022, Original Post Date: Jan 1, 2022 ---

Enel is the prefect example if why I rank Based on Battle IQ. Without Battle IQ even the strongest fighters are reduced to fodder in the right circumstance

The thing is, Enel has insane intelligence and battle IQ.

He hasn't ever fought someone immune to lightning, and he immediately adapted to it with his own CQC using a Golden spear he forged out of the getgo. Used his lightning to heat up metals and use heat against Luffy.

He was a natural born genius. Country level observation haki. Mastery of his DF to the point of attack power and destruction feats comparable to admirals and Yonkos. Observation haki of country level AOE, and the intellect to comprehend the actions and speech of everyone in the country.

IMO, Enel is massively underrated as a fighter, with his powers just attributed to his strong DF
Don't get me wrong, his DF is insanely strong. Top 5 DFs in the series for sure. But, give it to 99.99% of the verse, and they wouldn't do nearly anything he did with his DF. The mastery of it, creating spaceships powered by his electricity, observation haki ranging across islands etc

It's like Doflamingo in some ways. Powerful DF, but the extremely creative use of the DF plus mastery of the DF makes it seem much stronger than it would in the hands of some randoms.



His downfall was his God complex. He was in a completely different league compared to everyone around him. Hence stagnated and became extremely prideful.
HE saw Luffy as a mere vermin, inspite of his immunity. Didn't kill him in the few times he had the chance. And ultimately paid the price.
Show him the monsters in the grandline, and he humbles himself to train and become an actual top tier

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 1, 2022 ---

Plot armour this plot armour that. Crocodile wasn't that strong when he lost to Luffy; Oda messed up and inflated his power at Marineford. Enel wasn't that strong either, take any top tier who's a Devil Fruit user and remove their fruit and haki and they beat the piss out of everyone on Skypiea. Fruitless Kuzan, Fruitless Akainu, Fruitless Big Mam etc. Enel was just not that guy; he's what Pekoms explained, an overconfident logia because nobody around him can hit him. Enel's heart got stopped by a reject dial and would have died if it wasn't for his fruit restarting his heart. Put skypiea Enel in the New World, and his ass gets tossed around.

Yes Oda messed up. He didn't know how wack powerscaling would get.

Crocodile was always meant to be that strong. Almost 3rd commander level. It was just that he was introduced when haki wasn't really a thing.

Same for Enel.
Oda said his bounty would've been 500 million. And this was back when 500 million was a huge thing, like Ace was 550 million

There was no concept of armament haki in the series, during Skypia arc. Even in marineford, armament haki was in it's infancy.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Battle IQ not so much, but he was overall intelligent.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Yeah, it was Crocodile done all over again. An OP villain who got introduced too early.

Especially true for Enel. He one shotted every character in the arc, including Zoro

Enel did actually defeat Luffy the first time. He trapped him in gold and threw him away. Giving gold as "present".
Could've thrown him into the sea/water if he really wanted to.

He had amazing potential overall, great intellect, and his DF mastery is top tier even today.

IIRC Oda said his bounty would've been 500 million. This was back when bounties didn't get crazy. 500 million was probably considered commander level, considering Ace's bounty

Would be amazing if he trained and came back, with an army of minions from moon lol. With armament haki and all.



Ace was 18 during the fight, Yamato 24

Ace grew for 2 more years before he died. Yamato 4 more since then. But Ace's growth rate is far higher.
So they probably ended up at around same level

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 1, 2022, Original Post Date: Jan 1, 2022 ---

The thing is, Enel has insane intelligence and battle IQ.

He hasn't ever fought someone immune to lightning, and he immediately adapted to it with his own CQC using a Golden spear he forged out of the getgo. Used his lightning to heat up metals and use heat against Luffy.

He was a natural born genius. Country level observation haki. Mastery of his DF to the point of attack power and destruction feats comparable to admirals and Yonkos. Observation haki of country level AOE, and the intellect to comprehend the actions and speech of everyone in the country.

IMO, Enel is massively underrated as a fighter, with his powers just attributed to his strong DF
Don't get me wrong, his DF is insanely strong. Top 5 DFs in the series for sure. But, give it to 99.99% of the verse, and they wouldn't do nearly anything he did with his DF. The mastery of it, creating spaceships powered by his electricity, observation haki ranging across islands etc

It's like Doflamingo in some ways. Powerful DF, but the extremely creative use of the DF plus mastery of the DF makes it seem much stronger than it would in the hands of some randoms.



His downfall was his God complex. He was in a completely different league compared to everyone around him. Hence stagnated and became extremely prideful.
HE saw Luffy as a mere vermin, inspite of his immunity. Didn't kill him in the few times he had the chance. And ultimately paid the price.
Show him the monsters in the grandline, and he humbles himself to train and become an actual top tier

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 1, 2022 ---

Yes Oda messed up. He didn't know how wack powerscaling would get.

Crocodile was always meant to be that strong. Almost 3rd commander level. It was just that he was introduced when haki wasn't really a thing.

Same for Enel.
Oda said his bounty would've been 500 million. And this was back when 500 million was a huge thing, like Ace was 550 million

There was no concept of armament haki in the series, during Skypia arc. Even in marineford, armament haki was in it's infancy.

Oda messed up with Croc. Just because Enel would have a high bounty doesn't mean he was mad powerful. He was a logia. most of the world wouldn't be able to harm him, he would be a terror but by NO MEANS does that mean he's on the same level as people with simular bounties. And until we see Enel reappear and put in work, I am by no means going to argue he's strong. I'm judging Enel off what we've seen from him.

 

[albertwv]

Yeah, it was Crocodile done all over again. An OP villain who got introduced too early.

Dude, you basically repeated everything you said in the same post. You mentioned his "amazing" CoO like 5 times.

Yes he would have a 500 million bounty, which we can see is nothing to the Yonko Commanders. 500m is crazy for GL paradise and somewhat on the high average for NW veterans.
Enel would be terrifying in Paradise, but in the New World, veterans would crush him like they did Swamp guy.

Enough about potential, that is seriously annoying in a power level discussion. Dont tell me how strong they WOULD be, tell me how strong they are or were. Its fine to bring it up as a talking point but as a defense for argument to back up a point you are making, no. I am not talking about anyone specific here in this thread, so do not take it personal.

Btw, I dont think Crocodile is YC3 level, im talking about MF War Crocodile, I dont think he is that strong.

Lastly, the Beasts Pirates underperformed all the way to King and Queen. I think the best fight was WW vs Jimbei, but even then I was expecting more from WW.
Franky vs Sasaki was more of a comedy fight, especially with the helicopter thing.
BM vs Robin, was actually a good lengthy fight for Robin.

Someone in another thread mentioned, how the CP0 may be Zoans since it seems CP has an animal theme atleast CP9. I would not mind at all, I want to see more actual Zoans, whether regular, ancient, or mythical, but of course AWAKENED since the Beasts Pirates disappointed in that department.
Kinda disappointing how quickly CP0 handled Drake, like I was hoping to see them in action to rate their battle strength.
I mean yeah, we kinda can guess how strong they are with how quickly they defeated a Number (no surprised there) and Drake (big surprise)
Drake being veteran VA level IMO, then we can say they are YC level maybe YC2.
Also, somebody also mentioned how current Lucci is YC1. Honestly I dont think so, that is a big jump for him. I know why people want to see him that strong so he could fight Luffy, but to me that is too much.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

Dude, you basically repeated everything you said in the same post. You mentioned his "amazing" CoO like 5 times.

Yes he would have a 500 million bounty, which we can see is nothing to the Yonko Commanders. 500m is crazy for GL paradise and somewhat on the high average for NW veterans.
Enel would be terrifying in Paradise, but in the New World, veterans would crush him like they did Swamp guy.

Enough about potential, that is seriously annoying in a power level discussion. Dont tell me how strong they WOULD be, tell me how strong they are or were. Its fine to bring it up as a talking point but as a defense for argument to back up a point you are making, no. I am not talking about anyone specific here in this thread, so do not take it personal.

Btw, I dont think Crocodile is YC3 level, im talking about MF War Crocodile, I dont think he is that strong.

Lastly, the Beasts Pirates underperformed all the way to King and Queen. I think the best fight was WW vs Jimbei, but even then I was expecting more from WW.
Franky vs Sasaki was more of a comedy fight, especially with the helicopter thing.
BM vs Robin, was actually a good lengthy fight for Robin.

Someone in another thread mentioned, how the CP0 may be Zoans since it seems CP has an animal theme atleast CP9. I would not mind at all, I want to see more actual Zoans, whether regular, ancient, or mythical, but of course AWAKENED since the Beasts Pirates disappointed in that department.
Kinda disappointing how quickly CP0 handled Drake, like I was hoping to see them in action to rate their battle strength.
I mean yeah, we kinda can guess how strong they are with how quickly they defeated a Number (no surprised there) and Drake (big surprise)
Drake being veteran VA level IMO, then we can say they are YC level maybe YC2.
Also, somebody also mentioned how current Lucci is YC1. Honestly I dont think so, that is a big jump for him. I know why people want to see him that strong so he could fight Luffy, but to me that is too much.

bro almost everything iv ever seen you write has been wrong. how can one person hold so many Ls?

 

[Drm123]

Enel is a scrub by modern one piece strength standards. Luffy could prolly knock him out with conquers Haki. Enel at best would defeat chopper or Nami in a extreme diff bout.