One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[HereNThere]

Yeah, but it does give us some indication. And there could be explanation, like Mihawk not going all out yet or Aokiji and Akainu not wanting to destroy Marineford like they did Punk Hazard. Hell, Whitebeard might have fared better because he didn't care about destroying the island, while the Marines wanted to protect it, so the admirals held back.

I'm weirdly okay with Marineford Mihawk because he was there just to test the 'distance between' himself and Whitebeard. Luffy showed up out of nowhere and presented him with an interesting little thing to observe, then Vista popped in as a fun distraction. It's clear he was nowhere near going all out. None of the Warlords were, because none of them gave a shit about the Marines' objective. There wasn't Birdcage Doffy or Shadows Asgard Moria or whatever because they really had no reason to go all out, and certainly Mihawk even less than them.

In regards to Mihawk, I'd say he was supposed to be going on all, at least, I'd say that was the Pre-Time Skip version of "going all out". Oda had Mihawk claim that he can't hold back when he draws his blade, which prompted the apology to Shanks. We proceed to see him cut an iceberg in half when aiming for Luffy, Luffy having a vision of Mihawk cutting his arms off, and the complete "slaughter" of Buggy while Luffy was using him as a human shield, including the moment when he made Buggy into finely sliced deli meat, while still intending for Luffy to be his target. I think he was serious. But given what we know about the upper limits of the Top Tiers, Luffy should've been obliterated during the first move.

In terms of the Admirals and Whitebeard to a lesser extent, while their Logia abilities and the Quake fruit could've easily destroyed Marineford when going all out, that doesn't include their Haki abilities and sheer physical strength. Like, we know the Admirals are capable of using the Flowing Form variant of Haki as they demonstrated it while blocking Whitebeard's attack. Luffy got kicked in the head by Kizaru twice. Hard. I'd say either of those hits should've really knocked him out for the rest of the war. I'd actually apply the general inconsistent use of haki to the entire war, compared to how consistent it's been after the time skip.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 20, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 20, 2022 ---

Kid ????!! Kid has been shown of the big 3 to have by far the least potent attack power , his haki is mediocre and just uses brute force
He’s a tank but law and luffy are far superior attack wise

Haki is debatable for both Kidd and Law as Oda didn't really highlight their proficiency, but I don't think we can discount his attack power. His brute force was shown to be exceedingly effective against known physical monster, Big Mom. The fact that Punk Corna Dio could break a few of her bones and even had her worried enough to uproot a tower to block it is really impressive in terms of raw power. Law's attacks could bypass her durability, but Kidd broke through it.

 

[Kurapika59]

Fujitoras meteors werent impressive imho. Law and Doffy dealt with them quite easily. His most problematic attack is binding his opponent with gravity like seen with Zoro.

Doflamingo's cage destroyed small meteors. The meteor that Law and Doflamingo and Fujitora attacked being blocked was illogical. It was too large to be blocked by small sword attacks or other attacks similar to that.

I think you are vastly underestimating the extend of the Admirals power.

All of them performed island-sized attacks:

And the Admirals did this comfortably, as if it was no big deal. Who knows how far Aokiji can freeze given enough time?

You cannot compare Pica to this. In fact Pica's statue is among the rubble that Fujitora lifted.

I say Fujitora destructive power is lower than Kizaru because at best his ability can crush an island, while Kizaru can flat out blow it. But I'm assuming Fujitora cannot attract hundreds of meteors.

They don't destroy islands in seconds. They have large area destruction powers in many cases. With enough attacks they can devastate islands but I think of island destruction in the way of for example, if someone completely sunk an island into the sea. I implied something wrong earlier when I said Zoro has extreme attack power. He does have extreme attack power with his sword waves, but he only uses it on inorganic targets. However, I am pretty sure his haki is stronger than the haki of some admirals and that he could cut them in melee combat. Pica's stone construct was not as big but that does not mean that Zoro couldn't cut Fujitora.

 

[I Am Atomic]

People underestimate Kidd a lot....like a lot! We been told that you need aCoA and aCoC to break through a Yonko. However, Law and Kidd are an exception. They used their fruits to their maximum potential to achieve what haki could do.

It's been stated 100 times+ that Kidd is the one who confronted BM, while Law used that opportunity to attack. There is even a scene where Kidd and BM charge at each other, only for Kidd to win that exchange.

Lastly, Kidd dealt damage to the outside, while Law did damage to inside. They were portrayed to be equal during the fight against BM.

 

[john ellis]

@zetsu banned your statement is also true for crocodile pre time skip he was a very versatile fighter. But thats besides the point yes kata is a versatile fighter doesn't change the fact he's going to get destroyed by people on kidd's level. kata is simply just greatly out classed in terms of power, kidd's attack potenacy is on par with emperor's he was able to fight exchange blows and hurt and emperor something that is just simply beyond kata's level. But sure kata is a strong verastile figher it just doesn't matter when you compare him to people capable of exchanging blows with yonko's.

also can we please stop over rating future sight haki, it's actually not a strong abillity. It only matters if your on par with your opponet. Luffy a future sight user got blizted and 1 shot by kaido because it simply doesn't matter how much you can see the future if your greatly out classed. kata's future slight is likely meaningless vs someone much stronger then him such as kidd. It will likely contribute 5% of the fight and no effect the outcome at all. Yes it's broken vs people weaker then you as it prevents them from ever being able to hit you or cheese you. SO yes when kata is stronger then his opponents which he is most of the time. yes it's broken. But this is a case where it won't do much because kidd is stronger and faster, he will have issues reacting to his attacks and even if he does react it's likely he won't be able to stop the damage, as not even BM could block kidd's attack's. I would like to see kata try and block an attack that not even a yonko could.

 

[grey matter]

People underestimate Kidd a lot....like a lot! We been told that you need aCoA and aCoC to break through a Yonko. However, Law and Kidd are an exception. They used their fruits to their maximum potential to achieve what haki could do.

It's been stated 100 times+ that Kidd is the one who confronted BM, while Law used that opportunity to attack. There is even a scene where Kidd and BM charge at each other, only for Kidd to win that exchange.

Lastly, Kidd dealt damage to the outside, while Law did damage to inside. They were portrayed to be equal during the fight against BM.

Yeah, the Kid downplay is getting real hilarious.

The dude was strong enough to straight up brawl with BM (who definitely scales to at least base Kaido in pure stats), gets portrayed by Oda as one of thee 3 major figures of the new generation.....and still gets downplayed. Cause what, he isn't flashy? I suppose....

Yeah, on some level I get it. Oda hasn't been creative with Kid's DF at all, apart from the EM canon. Usually it's just creating Bulls and whatnot, visually meh and unpleasing. On some level, you simply don't feel like the dude is impressive.

Still, it has no relation with whether his attacks are actually powerful or not. His attacks breaks BM bones, makes her cough up blood, makes her dodge etc.

While Luffy, who basically tied with Katakuri, managed to deal zero damage to base Kaido...

@zetsu banned your statement is also true for crocodile pre time skip he was a very versatile fighter. But thats besides the point yes kata is a versatile fighter doesn't change the fact he's going to get destroyed by people on kidd's level. kata is simply just greatly out classed in terms of power, kidd's attack potenacy is on par with emperor's he was able to fight exchange blows and hurt and emperor something that is just simply beyond kata's level. But sure kata is a strong verastile figher it just doesn't matter when you compare him to people capable of exchanging blows with yonko's.

I'd generally say Kid is a tier above Katakuri. But, I don't think he's gonna destroy Katakuri.

Maybe a mid-high diff battle?

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 20, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 20, 2022 ---

Kaido defeated Luffy at the beggining of Wano like he was nothing, and it wouldn't be different with Katakuri.

Luffy or Kid got so strong that they could one-shot Katakuri by this point.

To be fair, I think Luffy getting one shot in beginning of Wano is an outlier.

The scabbards are all weaker than Katakuri/beginning of Wano Luffy, yet managed to tank hits from Kaido.

I think current Luffy low diffs Katakuri, Kid mid-high diffs Katakuri. He isn't getting one shot by any of them.

 

[Rein Avara]

I feel that people rate Kid based on what he should be able do instead of what he's done, as I said I personally remain unimpressed with Kid and his accomplishments in Wano, it's not even about flashiness. Sure, he's got high physical strength, but like @Lord Traffy Law said his haki is mediocre at best, his devil fruit is alright against someone like BM (who didn't really demonstrate exceptional haki feats like kaido) but what happens when he fights against Logias or special paramecia's like Kat? Are we going to say he can just use "assign" to disrupt them?

I do not think Kid wins against Katakuri based on what he's shown, Katakuri's got insane versatility, great haki usage, decent endurance/durability and he's extremely fast.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Doflamingo's cage destroyed small meteors. The meteor that Law and Doflamingo and Fujitora attacked being blocked was illogical. It was too large to be blocked by small sword attacks or other attacks similar to that.

And yet it did happen.

Kidd did brute force damage to big mom. Remember WCI? Where the main plot was to weaken her, so a special bazooka could do any damage at all? She was referred as an ironballon even without using haki.

Kidd breached through that and broke her bones, while she was using haki. Thats an extreme feat.

 

[Kurapika59]

And yet it did happen.

Kidd did brute force damage to big mom. Remember WCI? Where the main plot was to weaken her, so a special bazooka could do any damage at all? She was referred as an ironballon even without using haki.

Kidd breached through that and broke her bones, while she was using haki. Thats an extreme feat.

The bazooka rockets meant to kill Big Mom were destroyed by her scream before they could get close to her. Kidd did damage to Big Mom because he hit her with a lot of force. I don't see that as illogical. I realize that Fujitora's meteor on himself, Law, and Doflamingo didn't work in canon but that makes it hard for me to estimate a reliable force level for them when it just didn't make sense in canon for the three of them to survive that meteor.

I don't remember the special bazooka part of the plot. I thought the initial barrage of poison gas rockets was intended to kill her if it hit.

 

[grey matter]

I feel that people rate Kid based on what he should be able do instead of what he's done, as I said I personally remain unimpressed with Kid and his accomplishments in Wano, it's not even about flashiness. Sure, he's got high physical strength, but like @Lord Traffy Law said his haki is mediocre at best, his devil fruit is alright against someone like BM (who didn't really demonstrate exceptional haki feats like kaido) but what happens when he fights against Logias or special paramecia's like Kat? Are we going to say he can just use "assign" to disrupt them?

I do not think Kid wins against Katakuri based on what he's shown, Katakuri's got insane versatility, great haki usage, decent endurance/durability and he's extremely fast.

Katakuri's attack power scales to post WCI Luffy, who did zero damage to Kaido (or BM, back in WCI).
While Kid is out there breaking bones of BM, making her dodge and making her cough blood.
Kid's attack power >> Katakuri's attack power

Katakuri's durability scales to post WCI Luffy, and we saw what base Kaido did to him.....Katakuri's durability is nothing on Kid, who tanked countless attacks from Yonkos.
Kid's durability >> Katakuri's durability

The main issue Kid will be facing is Katakuri's combat speed.

But, Kid is no slouch in combat speed either.
Kid's combat stats are somewhat relative to BM's, considering he was the one brawling with her for the most part, making room for Law to get his hits.

Kid is fast enough, just by scaling to BM.
And BM's combat stats scale to at least base Kaido, who we all agree has high combat speed..

Katakuri is fast, he has speed relative to WCI Luffy.
But is he fast enough that BM can't get hits on him? I doubt.

I can even grant that Katakuri possibly outclasses Kid in combat speed for the sake of argument, due to his inherent speed + future sight + mochi body.
But the thing is, Kid can just use assign on Katakuri, and his future sight + body tweak combo falls apart. Kid doesn't even need to make contact for that, Katakuri gets in his radius and boom, he gets assigned a polarity.

Edit:
Regarding haki. Come on, Kid has the bare minimum haki that is expected of high tiers. He's not a natural born monster with thick skin, if he tanks hits from Yonkos, it's mainly due to him using armament haki to protect himself. Natural durability can only take you so far. He can deal with logias just fine

 

[HereNThere]

I feel that people rate Kid based on what he should be able do instead of what he's done, as I said I personally remain unimpressed with Kid and his accomplishments in Wano, it's not even about flashiness. Sure, he's got high physical strength, but like @Lord Traffy Law said his haki is mediocre at best, his devil fruit is alright against someone like BM (who didn't really demonstrate exceptional haki feats like kaido) but what happens when he fights against Logias or special paramecia's like Kat? Are we going to say he can just use "assign" to disrupt them?

I do not think Kid wins against Katakuri based on what he's shown, Katakuri's got insane versatility, great haki usage, decent endurance/durability and he's extremely fast.

This late in the game, I highly doubt Kid's haki is that poor that he can't handle a Logia user. We really can't say how proficient he is as neither his nor Law's haki was highlighted during their fight with Kaido and Big Mom, but I'd say we can safely assume it's at a high enough level to even reach that point and survive. Given the fact that his head wasn't immediately turned to scrambled eggs every time Big Mom rocked him in the face, I'd say it's strong enough. Apoo's haki, in comparison, allowed him to take a Shigan to the neck and he still coughed up blood.

While I'm on the topic, I'd say Katakuri has been underestimated as well as of late. I'm fairly sure he can use AdCoC or some form of it as Luffy had a similar reaction to getting hit by his attack as he did against one of Kaido's attacks. But that's neither here nor there.

Anyway, a match-up between those two would actually leave Kid at a bit of a disadvantage, but it shouldn't be too bad. Technically, if there is enough scrap around, Kid should be decently versatile in what he can do against Katakuri. I'd say the biggest issue he'd have with most Logia and Special Paramecia's wouldn't be their basic formlessness, but their ability to transform their environment if they possess awakening as they could take his tools away. But there is also the possiblity that Kid's Assign could basically force Logia users to stay intact by attracting them back to themselves, so to speak? Kid's abilities and their limits a still a bit vague.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I think we need to see Katakuri fight someone strong to show people he won't scale to current power levels. Every arcs main antagonist looks impressive when facing Luffy but they are relatively irrelevant power wise once Luffy moves on.

Both Kata and Doffy came off as these incredibly powerful fighters in their respective arcs. However, neither of them would have been stand outs in Onigashima. At best they could deal with All Stars but neither of them would do well against either Kaido of BM.

As for Kid, he has not been portrayed as having all these special techniques/haki abilities but he has been shown to cause serious damage Yonko opponents and he has been able to take hits from Yonko opponents and keep standing up. How would he have problems defeating Katakuri, when Kata lost to attack power from WCI Luffy who couldn't damage base Kaido? That makes no sense.

 

[HereNThere]

I mean, even if came back and topped out at Marco's level/performance, that'd still be pretty good, imo.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I mean, even if came back and topped out at Marco's level/performance, that'd still be pretty good, imo.

Yes this I can believe. I could even see Katakuri stalling a Yonko for a good bit of time like Marco but I just don't see Kata dealing any real damage to a BM or a Kaido, nor do I see Kata taking solid hits from a BM or Kaido and being able to continue fighting.

 

[albertwv]

The thing about Kid and Law is that story wise, we Never saw them get stronger, same with Killer and then we see them in the Roof damaging Kaido and BM. Yet, all 3 of them don't give me vibes that they could defeat Doffy or Katakuri without a high-diff. Kid was underwhelming in his fight vs BM. He's more of a brawler and so is BM. But Oda should have shown him using Haki even CoA only and also high speed CoO.
That fight BM vs Kid and Law was more of a fight that I would expect from Pre- time skip. No Haki or anything cool. The only cool attacks were Law's final attack and Kid's laser. BM did not seem to use a final ultimate finisher or ACoC.

There is an impression that Kid and Luffy are equals in states therefore they must be equally strong or near equally strong, same goes for Zolo and Killer because of the positions they are in their respective crews. But in reality, the Straw Hats have shown to be a step ahead than their counterparts, the Worst Generation/Supernova.
No other Supernova Captain and 1st Mate have done what Luffy and Zolo have.
So I don't buy it that Kid is nearly equal to Luffy. Not until Kid defeats a Yonko by himself or Killer defeating a YC1. Killer defeated a Yonko Executive level who is on the weaker side, yet people rank him as YC2 and above. LOL. Nah bro.

In reality, Law and Kid should NOT have been given the same bounty as Luffy. Not saying Bounty = Power level, but people will use that as a way to say Luffy = Law = Kid because they have the same bounty.
Side track, regarding the bounty, I think Luffy deserved the $3 billion bounty, but NOT Law or KID. They should have had it lower maybe $1.5 or $2.0 billion.

 

[M3J]

In regards to Mihawk, I'd say he was supposed to be going on all, at least, I'd say that was the Pre-Time Skip version of "going all out". Oda had Mihawk claim that he can't hold back when he draws his blade, which prompted the apology to Shanks. We proceed to see him cut an iceberg in half when aiming for Luffy, Luffy having a vision of Mihawk cutting his arms off, and the complete "slaughter" of Buggy while Luffy was using him as a human shield, including the moment when he made Buggy into finely sliced deli meat, while still intending for Luffy to be his target. I think he was serious. But given what we know about the upper limits of the Top Tiers, Luffy should've been obliterated during the first move.

In terms of the Admirals and Whitebeard to a lesser extent, while their Logia abilities and the Quake fruit could've easily destroyed Marineford when going all out, that doesn't include their Haki abilities and sheer physical strength. Like, we know the Admirals are capable of using the Flowing Form variant of Haki as they demonstrated it while blocking Whitebeard's attack. Luffy got kicked in the head by Kizaru twice. Hard. I'd say either of those hits should've really knocked him out for the rest of the war. I'd actually apply the general inconsistent use of haki to the entire war, compared to how consistent it's been after the time skip.

But again, how do we know he was 100% serious and not just testing Luffy? He probably put full power, but he wasn't trying his best to hit Luffy. It's not like he was shocked that Luffy was dodging his attacks, just that he was calm. Also, if Mihawk has future sight then he could have seen Luffy dodging and did just enough to ensure he can dodge.

True but to be fair, Luffy's resilient as fuck. Wasn't he still using Conqueror's haki even after being knocked out by Kaidou? Despite everything up to that point,he was still chugging along, and it took a severe mental trauma to finally stop him.

 

[Core D. Roy]

Luffy a future sight user got blizted and 1 shot by kaido

I'm tired of seeing this get parroted. Future sight doesn't work if you're not calm, and Luffy had just seen what he thought was his crew being annihilated. We literally see what happens when he successfully uses future sight against the same exact attack when he uses it during Roofpiece.

• No future sight in G4? Blitzed and one-shot by Thunder Bagua.
• Future sight in base form? Gets clipped a little bit by Thunder Bagua.

Future sight is insanely effective.

 

[john ellis]

I'm tired of seeing this get parroted. Future sight doesn't work if you're not calm, and Luffy had just seen what he thought was his crew being annihilated. We literally see what happens when he successfully uses future sight against the same exact attack when he uses it during Roofpiece.

• No future sight in G4? Blitzed and one-shot by Thunder Bagua.
• Future sight in base form? Gets clipped a little bit by Thunder Bagua.

Future sight is insanely effective.

roof top luffy was atleast stronger then post wci luffy. it's clear he's able to keep up with kaido where as post wci luffy was not. Future sight haki simply doesn't let you dodge attacks you normally can't. It lets you dodge attacks you can dodge that you wouldn't of been aware of. It's like giving a normal human the abillity to see 1-5 seconds into the future doesn't allow them to dodge gun bullets. Even if they can see the bullet being shot seconds before it happens, it's just simply not possible for them to dodge it.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Kidd beats the breaks off Katakuri.

 

[Core D. Roy]

roof top luffy was atleast stronger then post wci luffy.

He had two weeks in prison to learn advanced armament. This has nothing to do with future sight.

it's clear he's able to keep up with kaido where as post wci luffy was not.

It's clear he wasn't using future sight when he got blitzed in G4. It's clear he was using future sight when he managed to mostly dodge Thunder Bagua on the rooftop in base form.

Future sight haki simply doesn't let you dodge attacks you normally can't.

Yes, that's why he got clipped by Thunder Bagua on the rooftop.

It lets you dodge attacks you can dodge that you wouldn't of been aware of.

Yes. Hence, how he could partially dodge Thunder Bagua on the rooftop but still got clipped.

It's like giving a normal human the abillity to see 1-5 seconds into the future doesn't allow them to dodge gun bullets.

... Literally being able to see the future would let you do that. It's not the speed of the bullet, it's the speed of somebody aiming and pulling the trigger.

Even if they can see the bullet being shot seconds before it happens, it's just simply not possible for them to dodge it.

Except when using future sight on the rooftop, Luffy did exactly that to Thunder Bagua. When he was enraged in the beginning of Wano, he did not.

 

[Urek Mazino]

I would agree that Katakuri is overrated. He is strong among the commanders but nothing much when compared to a Yonkou.

Even if he is stronger than he was when fighting Luffy it is not a big difference.

The amount of growth Luffy underwent in litte time after WCI until he was able to fight with Kaido is incredible, no one else could follow that.

Kid is obviously weaker than Luffy but he fought a Yonkou head on, imho there is no way he loses to Katakuri.