Those are pretty good candidates. For me Doflamingo would be the one that I'd imagine Luffy struggling in an immediate rematch since there wasn't any growth in skill or learning of a weakness. Luffy would go into a rematch with all the same drawbacks.
For Kata, I think Luffy would actually win a rematch since the big issue was aCOO which he learned in that fight. Sure Kata would be better at it than Luffy but without the big gap of not being able to get hit I would give Luffy the rematch.
Crocodile is interesting one. It was very circumstantial win but also Luffy did learn his weakness against water so it's a toss up for me on an immediate rematch. Surprised you think Luffy wouldn't be able to beat him in a rematch until Rayleigh training. I'd give Luffy a clean win on Crocodile after Enies Lobby. G2 Luffy with water should easily overpower him (assuming Crocodile didn't get stronger) but not clear against retconned version of Croco.
Regarding Crocodile. He is someone who is treated at minimum to be as strong as Yonko-executive/Tobiroppo level, based on Marineford arc. He was treated as a legit threat in Marineford, in contrast Luffy was treated as an ant by everyone. Maybe this was Oda recognizing his fuck up and retconning? Idk.
Regardless, even discouting Marineford all together, Luffy's win against him in Alabasta was pure fluke, a combo of Crocodile's massive overconfidence and CIS.
Now that that is out of the way.
Ok, so if I understand your logic correctly, if Luffy got a powerup mid fight, then that would make the difference if they had an immediate rematch? That is all right, but we have to look a bit more into the context too.
Luffy getting the powerup mid fight didn't make him strong enough to outright overwhelm his opponent, it made the fight go from a losing position to a near even position.
I will try to argue this for just Katakuri and Kaido (since for others, Luffy didn't get a powerup mid fight):
- Luffy, even after getting future sight, was below Katakuri in attack power, CQC/defence and overall haki. Luffy only had durability over him. If you look at the overall picture, Katakuri was still superior to Luffy. And, Katakuri is capable of maintaining this performance for a long time, while Luffy is donezo after 15 mins, after which G4 runs out. I mean, the time limit of G4 was even a plot point in their fight IIRC, where Katakuri allowed Luffy time to get to his G4, because he wanted to fight Luffy at his strongest.
- Kaido went through a massive gauntlet in the arc. And defeated Luffy thrice in the raid, after each defeat Luffy had time to heal up and recover. While Kaido was fighting non stop, without a break
And after all that, G5 Luffy was pretty much just a match for Kaido.
Kaido was already at his last legs, when he started fighting G5 Luffy, even much more than when the sky split happened. Luffy's awakening undoubtedly healed him (I mean the dude was actually dead and bought back to life lol), so I'd argue G5 Luffy started off at a relatively better place (though obviously nowhere near his full power either)
Anyway, not arguing that the gap is significant.
I place Luffy solidly at Yonko level. Stronger than BM, weaker than Kaido. I think that's pretty fair.
Lol I didn't realize it was a contentious topic, since I don't normally participate in any discussion about Zoro. Dude missed, he flat out says so. There's no indication that Kaidou moved at all
The anime made it clear that Kaido dodged.
1) That’s my perspective. You don’t have to agree. Golden Era
Roger (PK)
WB (Strongest man/ Rogers Rival
Garp (Hero Marine/Roger’s Rival)
Sengoku (Roger says he’s a threat similar to Garp)
I place the Pirates higher than Marines. Simple as that. If you don’t, ok. *Pirates(Roger/WB)
WB was old & sick. What we saw in Marineford was WB vs 3Admirals….3 Charcters within his tier that’s insurmountable odds. 1 vs 1 he’s winning against Everyone/Anyone. His power still is above everyone else. He just fatigues & sickness creates openings. Which is why it’ll be extreme diff. I don’t anyone trading blows with him. We saw how he did Akainu with all that damage.
Kaido’s Club was on Luffy’s face/head like White on Rice. He’s beating the life outta Sengoku who’s 77. Low-Diff for a Yonkou fight would be the equivalent of Luffy’s entire performance vs Kaido before he Rode Momo back up to Onigashima. It’s still a good fight.
3) Like you said there’s major uncertainty. When it comes to uncertainties ? A different perspective? Doesn’t make sense to argue but understand where someone else is coming from. Can’t really be correct when’s things are uncertain…
1. How do you see relative levels? Say, if Roger was a 100, how would the rest be?
Even if you consider Roger/prime WB a bit above Garp, do you agree that Garp was still close enough that this would be an extreme diff?
To make matters more simple, say, this is acceptable?
Roger: 100
Prime WB: 100
Prime Garp: 98
Prime Sengoku: 90
Do you agree that Garp aged a lot better than Whitebeard? If yes, logically speaking shouldn't the gap decrease, irrespective of how small/big you think it was during their prime?
Point being, if prime WB vs prime Garp was extreme diff or even high diff, then old WB vs old Garp should at minimum maintain that diff.
See, my issue isn't that you are rating sick old WB highly. He has feats backing it up, he fought against the strongest admiral (Akainu) and had a slight edge.
The issue is that you are rating old Garp and old Sengoku lower.......why? Because they didn't fight? Is portrayal and narrative to be discarded, because they simply didn't get feats? It is not even like they got anti-feats (i.e feats that prove they are not top tier anymore), they simply didn't participate in the Marineford war, that's all.
You think Kaido would low diff old Sengoku........Tell me, Kaido vs Kizaru, who wins and what diff?
Old Rayleigh had combats stats relative to Kizaru, and was lacking only in stamina, Old Sengoku by scaling should be above old Rayleigh for sure, one because prime Sengoku was likely stronger than prime Rayleigh, second because Sengoku aged better than Rayleigh (Sengoku was active and living disciplined, Rayleigh was retired and spent his time drinking/gambling).
3. Sure, there can be difference perspectives. We still debate cause that's what the forum is for lol.
We both can at least agree that, before the whole Law/Kid vs BM happened, there was no question of BM getting nerfed by age? In WCI, her "always on" haki was established and was used as a major plot point. In Wano, BM fought base Kaido for many hours, exchanging blows and splitting sky. Someone who could fight on for many hours, without breaking a sweat at a high level, isn't nerfed by old age IMO.
Which is why I think that Law/Kid vs BM is more of a thematic fight where DF is given more focus than haki, leading to less haki display; rather than BM being unable to use haki because she was nerfed by old age.
So, is the way Law/Kid vs BM an indicative of her being nerfed by age, or is it an indicative of thematic battle? We can't say for sure because we can't read Oda's mind, but according the precedence, it suggests the latter. Unless we are to believe she got nerfed by age a week or two after her battle with Kaido, where she went onto fight for hours at a level where they split sky.
