Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.
It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.
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We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.
As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:
Shanks v Mihawk
Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
Zoro > Luffy
Zoro v Sanji
Is Smoker a top 30 character?
Mihawk's rank within the story
Law having CoC currently.
Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.
If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.
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I think Oda works closely with the anime. Especially because in Wano, he had to rush and skip a lot of things.
IMO, Wano arc anime is canon. Especially for stuff raid related.
We might even see a lot of unanswered plot points being addressed in the anime. Some Yamato related stuff which already happened in the anime, is a good example IMO
I'm starting to wonder what plot armor he had against the sea beast. It's his first real opponent as a burgeoning pirate, and he offs it with a single punch, just like that, really? Is this OP or OPM?
I'm starting to wonder what plot armor he had against the sea beast. It's his first real opponent as a burgeoning pirate, and he offs it with a single punch, just like that, really? Is this OP or OPM?
I'm starting to wonder what plot armor he had against the sea beast. It's his first real opponent as a burgeoning pirate, and he offs it with a single punch, just like that, really? Is this OP or OPM?
I think in the grand scheme of things, Sea Kings vary in strength as much as pirates. The Sea King near Goa was clearly one of the most basic Sea King types, in the weakest of the oceans. Animals in OP tend to vary a lot. We have animals that were able to take out post-Enies Lobby Luffy before his Haki training, and the baboons that Zoro had to defeat during his time-skip training. So I don't really think it's surprising Luffy took out the Sea King as a show for his being ready to take on new challenges.
Yup. I've been saying for years that Crocodile is one of the characters introduced way too early in the series. Crocodile is a New World Veteran and should've stomped a mudhole in Luffy, weakness or no weakness. Marineford is an "outlier" but it's closer to where Crocodile should've actually been power-wise given the context of the series.
There is no way in hell that Alabasta Crocodile could've made a name for himself in the New World if Pre Gear Pre Time Skip Luffy was physically overpowering him.
Yup. I've been saying for years that Crocodile is one of the characters introduced way too early in the series. Crocodile is a New World Veteran and should've stomped a mudhole in Luffy, weakness or no weakness. Marineford is an "outlier" but it's closer to where Crocodile should've actually been power-wise given the context of the series.
There is no way in hell that Alabasta Crocodile could've made a name for himself in the New World if Pre Gear Pre Time Skip Luffy was physically overpowering him.
Yup. I've been saying for years that Crocodile is one of the characters introduced way too early in the series. Crocodile is a New World Veteran and should've stomped a mudhole in Luffy, weakness or no weakness. Marineford is an "outlier" but it's closer to where Crocodile should've actually been power-wise given the context of the series.
There is no way in hell that Alabasta Crocodile could've made a name for himself in the New World if Pre Gear Pre Time Skip Luffy was physically overpowering him.
I think it's an artifact of where Oda was at the time. The Warlords were only added later on as buffer enemies before the Emperors. The original plan was for Luffy to go straight towards the Emperors. At some point I believe his editors suggested the idea of intermediary enemies and so the Grand Line was split into Paradise and the New World.
Alabasta was therefore his first foray into introducing truly monstrously powerful enemies... Honestly he should've switched Thriller Bark and Alabasta somehow, because fighting Moria first would've made far more sense when it comes to ability matchups. Luffy had no business tussling with a logia user AT ALL that early on.
Regarding Crocodile. He is someone who is treated at minimum to be as strong as Yonko-executive/Tobiroppo level, based on Marineford arc. He was treated as a legit threat in Marineford, in contrast Luffy was treated as an ant by everyone. Maybe this was Oda recognizing his fuck up and retconning? Idk.
Regardless, even discouting Marineford all together, Luffy's win against him in Alabasta was pure fluke, a combo of Crocodile's massive overconfidence and CIS.
I definitely think Oda is retconning with Crocodile. The way he was shown in Marineford is what you describe which is strong executive level fighter, comparable to likes of Jinbei, Doflamingo etc. Unless we're too believe prison did Crocodile wonders there is no way a person at that level fighting haki users would lose to fresh into GL Luffy. Even with Luffy being able to connect his hits, they should have done minimal damage. Remember Doflamingo said Luffy's hits were too weak to do anything until he went into G4.
Now that that is out of the way.
Ok, so if I understand your logic correctly, if Luffy got a powerup mid fight, then that would make the difference if they had an immediate rematch? That is all right, but we have to look a bit more into the context too.
Luffy getting the powerup mid fight didn't make him strong enough to outright overwhelm his opponent, it made the fight go from a losing position to a near even position.
Yes I agree that his power ups aren't making him surpass his opponent, they are just making him get close enough to their level that he can actually give them a good fight. This was shown in his fight with Kata when Luffy started using aCoO to start landing blows on Kata, and similarly in his fight with Kaido where he started using aCoC and later awakening to close the gap in strength. In neither fight did Luffy surpass his opponents level.
My argument is if Luffy managed to pull the win against these opponents that he was greatly disadvantaged against in the first fight, why would he lose when he is only slightly disadvantaged in a rematch. If his opponents didn't grow stronger, then in a close call my bet is with Luffy. He just has the mental drive to win that I think makes me highly confident in him. I do admit this could just be just my bias since Luffy the main character who has a history of things going his way for plot reasons.
I will try to argue this for just Katakuri and Kaido (since for others, Luffy didn't get a powerup mid fight):
- Luffy, even after getting future sight, was below Katakuri in attack power, CQC/defence and overall haki. Luffy only had durability over him. If you look at the overall picture, Katakuri was still superior to Luffy. And, Katakuri is capable of maintaining this performance for a long time, while Luffy is donezo after 15 mins, after which G4 runs out. I mean, the time limit of G4 was even a plot point in their fight IIRC, where Katakuri allowed Luffy time to get to his G4, because he wanted to fight Luffy at his strongest.
Aside from durability I think Luffy also has higher power of Katakuri. Where Luffy lacks with that power is he can't sustain it. I don't think Kata's power mochi & peerless donut attack are stronger than King Kong Gun. They are definitely stronger (particularly the CoA) then Luffy's standard G4 attacks like Kong Gun. Overall, Luffy struggled to hit Kata due to the aCoO so to me in a rematch where Luffy has aCoO (even if at weaker level than Kata), it means he could land more hits and since Kata didn't show that same level of durability I think Luffy could take him out with G4.
I do concede that Luffy would need to have a strategy of attack & run for this to work out. Since he can't sustain his output in G4 he'd have no chance in between. Katakuri didn't allow Luffy to get back into G4, Luffy just ran away and grabbed Brulee to mirror hop. He returned once rested. Realistically it should be unlikely that Luffy can pull off running away again, but my bias makes me believe in he'd do it. I guess you can say I consider Luffy's luck a part of his abilities in these types of close circumstances.
- Kaido went through a massive gauntlet in the arc. And defeated Luffy thrice in the raid, after each defeat Luffy had time to heal up and recover. While Kaido was fighting non stop, without a break
And after all that, G5 Luffy was pretty much just a match for Kaido.
Kaido was already at his last legs, when he started fighting G5 Luffy, even much more than when the sky split happened. Luffy's awakening undoubtedly healed him (I mean the dude was actually dead and bought back to life lol), so I'd argue G5 Luffy started off at a relatively better place (though obviously nowhere near his full power either)
Anyway, not arguing that the gap is significant.
I place Luffy solidly at Yonko level. Stronger than BM, weaker than Kaido. I think that's pretty fair.
I just don't see Luffy getting knocked out by Kaido anymore with one of those types of hits. His current mastery of aCoC+aCoA+G5 makes him pretty much a tank. Unless something happens that gives Kaido a clean hit e.g. the CP0 interference, I don't think Kaido can win with his basic moves. He'd have to use a very powerful finisher like his advanced Thunder Bagua level 2 (I think he called it Death Destroyer Thunder Bagua) or his final lava dragon form attack. However, we also know if it comes down to it, Luffy's finisher is actually stronger than Kaido's.
The only thing Kaido has on Luffy from a feat standpoint is durability. So at this point it's a question of - do we think current Luffy alone can't dish out all the same amount of total damage Kaido endured during the raid? I personally think current Luffy can do greater damager than Scabbards+Supernova (minus Luffy)+Yamato+his previous self. It's definitely reasonable to doubt Luffy can take the win.
Overall my view of Luffy v anyone else is - "If power levels are close, always bet on Luffy"
What he learned was "I probably should have used my biggest attack immediately instead of taking 25 chapters to do so". Doffy just had nothing to counter King Kong Gun and was immediately annihilated by it. That fight would have been over basically immediately if Luffy did that first instead of ... all of the other not doing that.
I'd argue that Doffy wouldn't have been taken out by King Kong Gun in one blow if it weren't for all the prior damage he'd sustained fighting both Luffy (pre & post G4) and Law. Doffy in that fight showed he was far more durable than Luffy and could outlast even G4, which is why Luffy needed to run and rest. I think it would take luck for Luffy to land King Kong Gun in a rematch since Doffy would know not to take it head on.
Now do I really think Luffy would lose a rematch? The answer is no. But do I find him losing in a rematch against Doffy believable? The answer is yes.
That's interesting. I would've thought luffy would beat doffy in an immediate rematch even quicker. Straight into a G4 king kong gun and it's over. Doffy had no counter for that
King Kong Gun to me isn't a fast move. Doffy also would know he couldn't overpower it so would be more likely to use his awakening to guard & dodge the attack. Since he also knows Luffy's G4 has a time limit, I think he would just try to outlast him in a rematch. And unfortunately for Luffy, Doffy's ability is perfect for stalling a fight.
Since arriving in the NW, Luffy's major fights have NOT been entirely 1v1. Therefore, I do not believe that Luffy can defeat certain individuals in a rematch until he underwent training or improved.
Such opponents were: Doffy, Kata, and Kaido.
Doffy vs Luffy w/ Law. Yeah G4 had Doffy being rag dolled, but it had a time limit and Doffy had been weakened before G4 and was not defeated within the time limit. Doffy would have won that fight if it was a true 1v1. Not only did Law help, but Gatz and the Colosseum fighters to buy time. You can argue that Luffy could start off with King Kong Gun, but if that was the case, then why didn't he in the beginning? He had to weaken Doffy up a bit. Luffy surpassed Doffy when he started to learn ACoO.
Kata vs Luffy. If Luffy didn't have Brûlée to run away, he would have been caught by Kata and killed. Kata won the 1st round, then Boundman was an even match for Kata. Then Kata who had "Assistance" from the sniper girl, injured himself to be fair to Luffy, even tho Luffy didn't ask him to do it. Either way Luffy was not on Kata's level prior to the self-harm injured Kata. Snakeman was another even match for Kata. Then Snakeman gave out and both fighters took a rest before getting back up. Kata was ready and Luffy was probably out of G4 stamina. Kata could have finished the fight but decided to throw the towel noting that Luffy may surpass him in the future and take down BM. Yet Luffy's CoA and CoO were not a match for Kata. NOT UNTIL, Luffy learned ACoA in Udon.
Finally, Kaido vs Luffy w 9 Red Scabbards, 4 Supernovas, Yamato. Here is where most people disagree because they feel Luffy is now high up in the Yonko level due to beating Kaido. yet they forget the small important details. Oda hyped up the Yonko to the point everybody believed they were invincible, so Oda had to bring them down a notch. Oda did that by allowing the 9 RS to be able to cut Kaido. But he also had to maintain the Yonko's prestige and invincibility, therefore Oda made Kaido fight against such a powerful entourage in order to make it feasible for Luffy to finally defeat him after 3 defeats.
In a 1v1 rematch, even G5 would not be able to beat a Fresh Kaido. Kaido's stamina is still higher than Luffy's G5. I wanna say Luffy is right below Kaido and above BM.
I definitely think Oda is retconning with Crocodile. The way he was shown in Marineford is what you describe which is strong executive level fighter, comparable to likes of Jinbei, Doflamingo etc. Unless we're too believe prison did Crocodile wonders there is no way a person at that level fighting haki users would lose to fresh into GL Luffy. Even with Luffy being able to connect his hits, they should have done minimal damage. Remember Doflamingo said Luffy's hits were too weak to do anything until he went into G4.
Well, Doflamingo was portrayed as the superior Shichibukai even in Marineford.
But yeah. Doflamingo was more of a Jack level character, while Crocodile more of a Who's Who level character.
They should've just laughed at Alabasta arc Luffy's damage output. Touch or no touch, Crocodile shouldn't have even budged at Luffy's attack power.
I too believe it was a retconn since Oda probably didn't plan too ahead back then, but also again Oda reinforcing the idea that Luffy won by pure luck.
Yes I agree that his power ups aren't making him surpass his opponent, they are just making him get close enough to their level that he can actually give them a good fight. This was shown in his fight with Kata when Luffy started using aCoO to start landing blows on Kata, and similarly in his fight with Kaido where he started using aCoC and later awakening to close the gap in strength. In neither fight did Luffy surpass his opponents level.
My argument is if Luffy managed to pull the win against these opponents that he was greatly disadvantaged against in the first fight, why would he lose when he is only slightly disadvantaged in a rematch. If his opponents didn't grow stronger, then in a close call my bet is with Luffy. He just has the mental drive to win that I think makes me highly confident in him. I do admit this could just be just my bias since Luffy the main character who has a history of things going his way for plot reasons.
This is the crux of the argument I believe. And I 100% would've agreed with you..........IF what Luffy had was a pure 1v1 fight. Let's go over these.
Against Katakuri, Luffy had to basically use hostage situation to buy time. Also had Katakuri slowly losing his will to fight over the course of the fight, because deep down he doesn't have a true allegiance to BM and want to see her overthrown,
As well as took Katakuri stabbing himself to "equalize" .........you might argue this is just Katakuri making things even for Flampe's itnerference, but something to be considered is that Katakuri's durability/endurance is below Luffy's, Luffy is used to getting the shit beaten out of him, while Katakuri probably wasn't touched in many years unless he went onto fight another YC1 or admiral or Yonko (which likely never happened).
*************
Against Kaido, it is an outright gauntlet here. Kaido fought back to back, without any rest, the following characters:
- 9 scabbards: Each member ranging from YC2 tier to Tobiroppo tier, all capable of using advanced armament haki
- 5 supernova: Kaido pretty much took all the damage from these 5 all by himself. Apart from damage dealt by Luffy, he took internal organ damage from Law and Killer, advanced armament attacks from Zoro, advanced conqueror's Asura from Zoro (which left a scar)
- Luffy rooftop round 2, after awakening advanced conqueror's haki
- Fight against Yamato, which went on till she was in her last legs
- Luffy round 3, split sky and G4
- Luffy round 4 in G5, where Luffy won extreme diff
- All the while, he was spending energy flying an entire island across the ocean (clearly this requires considerable energy, as noted by Yamato and as Momonuske figured out himself later. Just creating enough clouds to move the island some hundred metres by himself almost expended Momo's full energy)
While Luffy:
- got a minor rest where other Supernova bought him time, after round 1.
- got a lot of rest and he ate up months worth of food, after round 2
- got healed back from the "dead" as a result of awakening, after round 3
I place Luffy solidly in Yonko tier right now. But is he above Kaido? No, I don't think so.
Even from a narrative POV, I think it's too early in the story for Luffy to overtake the strongest alive pirate that we know of (discounting BB who is a complete wild card).
For me: Kaido > Shanks >= Luffy > Big Mom at the moment.
Aside from durability I think Luffy also has higher power of Katakuri. Where Luffy lacks with that power is he can't sustain it. I don't think Kata's power mochi & peerless donut attack are stronger than King Kong Gun. They are definitely stronger (particularly the CoA) then Luffy's standard G4 attacks like Kong Gun. Overall, Luffy struggled to hit Kata due to the aCoO so to me in a rematch where Luffy has aCoO (even if at weaker level than Kata), it means he could land more hits and since Kata didn't show that same level of durability I think Luffy could take him out with G4.
I do concede that Luffy would need to have a strategy of attack & run for this to work out. Since he can't sustain his output in G4 he'd have no chance in between. Katakuri didn't allow Luffy to get back into G4, Luffy just ran away and grabbed Brulee to mirror hop. He returned once rested. Realistically it should be unlikely that Luffy can pull off running away again, but my bias makes me believe in he'd do it. I guess you can say I consider Luffy's luck a part of his abilities in these types of close circumstances.
Actually, I think we saw Luffy and Katakuri exchanging blow. It hurt Luffy more than it did Katakuri IIRC, which means Katakuri had higher attack power.
I mean basically just that was my point.
Can pre rooftop Luffy finish off Katakuri in 15 mins? I don't think so. Especially considering G4 Luffy was above him in no stat except durability (and for you attack power too).
There is no Brulee here, there are no mirrors, there is no sibling bond holding Katakuri back, there is no in character conflict of Katakuri making him lose the will to fight etc.
I just don't see Luffy getting knocked out by Kaido anymore with one of those types of hits. His current mastery of aCoC+aCoA+G5 makes him pretty much a tank. Unless something happens that gives Kaido a clean hit e.g. the CP0 interference, I don't think Kaido can win with his basic moves. He'd have to use a very powerful finisher like his advanced Thunder Bagua level 2 (I think he called it Death Destroyer Thunder Bagua) or his final lava dragon form attack. However, we also know if it comes down to it, Luffy's finisher is actually stronger than Kaido's.
The only thing Kaido has on Luffy from a feat standpoint is durability. So at this point it's a question of - do we think current Luffy alone can't dish out all the same amount of total damage Kaido endured during the raid? I personally think current Luffy can do greater damager than Scabbards+Supernova (minus Luffy)+Yamato+his previous self. It's definitely reasonable to doubt Luffy can take the win.
Overall my view of Luffy v anyone else is - "If power levels are close, always bet on Luffy"
I can agree with some of this.
I think on pure attack power and combat speed, they are around same level. The difference comes just with Kaido's durability and stamina.
No, I don't think Luffy is capable of dishing out all that damage.
One, because awakening (i.e G5) takes up a lot of stamina. We saw that it was taking a toll on his body, just like G4, and that he had to pump himself up forcefully to maintain the form for a bit longer.
Second, because Kaido himself has shown the capability to finish off Luffy, before Luffy does the same.
On bold part. We don't know if that is true. I could argue that Kaido was relatively more weakened by the massive gauntlet and non stop fighting. As well as him losing focus after hearing Luffy's answer.
I think Luffy just increases the haki output in G4, so all the improvements in haki gets compensated such that it (conveniently) stays around same time limit lol
Let's see if that gets addressed in the future when the time comes.
There are many other stuff in the arc that is added, which is anime only, which I'm sure is canon. Oda is also working closely with the anime here, more than usual. The Yamato scenes are amongst the major. I especially see the last 20ish chapters getting expanded upon in the anime, as well as some hanging plot points addressed........ well that's the last hope I have for this trash ending lol.
I think Luffy just increases the haki output in G4, so all the improvements in haki gets compensated such that it (conveniently) stays around same time limit lol
That argument can be made for his Roof top fight, but not the other instances of him using G4, even then with the Ryuo training he should have become more efficient with his usage of haki, but didn't seem to be the case at all.
King Kong Gun to me isn't a fast move. Doffy also would know he couldn't overpower it so would be more likely to use his awakening to guard & dodge the attack. Since he also knows Luffy's G4 has a time limit, I think he would just try to outlast him in a rematch. And unfortunately for Luffy, Doffy's ability is perfect for stalling a fight.
Hmm I disagree with most of that but I get your thinking.
I don’t think any move in G4 is slow.
Doffy already tried to use his awakening to guard but was overpowered. I don’t think he’d be very successful in stalling G4 luffy.
I also think that G4 is way faster than doffy for him to be able to dodge. Also, what’s stopping Luffy from using snakeman and chasing him down quickly? In a rematch he’d know not to waste time in his base form like before no?
I don't see how DD can be a threat to Luffy with FS and ACoA and CoC. Not sure if people realise this, but Luffy's attacks were ineffective before against Kaido and now he was able to damage him. Guess what will happen to DD if he takes some CoC infused punches... I am talking about base/Gear 2/Gear 3 and Gear 4 Luffy.
That argument can be made for his Roof top fight, but not the other instances of him using G4, even then with the Ryuo training he should have become more efficient with his usage of haki, but didn't seem to be the case at all.
Because I think Gear 4 is inherently an imperfect awakening. The fact that his body retains rubber property despite being clad in Haki + ability to change direction of his punches are all abilities that were somehow easily achieved once Luffy awakened. I think that's the main reason and it wouldn't surprise me that we will never see Gear 4 ever again
Agreed with everything until this. Big Mom and Kaidou are basically equal, and Luffy is at the very bottom of Emperor tier. He is crazy powerful, but ain't no way he's above any of the more seasoned fighters in that tier, which is to say all of them.
The Big Mom slander in this fandom is ridiculous lol
