One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[grey matter]

Regarding Kaido vs Big Mom.

Based on both portrayal and feats.
I mean no offence by this, but it would require some serious mental gymnastics to see all that happened in the series so far and not conclude that Kaido is stronger than BM


Portrayal:
Kaido has been referred to as the strongest pirate, strongest creature, hype of 1v1 always bet on Kaido etc. Clearly, there is a little more "narrative weight" to him than BM does.
While it's true that all Yonkos have portrayal of being somewhat relative to each other, Kaido's portrayal is a bit higher than the other three. Similar to how WB had a higher portrayal above the rest, when he was alive 2 years ago.


Feats:
As for feats, Kaido faced arguably the most impressive gauntlet ever in the series. Defeated Scabbards (9 powerful characters of varying commander level PL capable of advanced armament haki), faced the brunt of the offense from 5 supernova (they pretty much just ganged upon just Kaido in the rooftop fight), defeated Luffy thrice in the raid, fought Yamato until she reached her limit, and pushed an awakened G5 Luffy to his limit. All the while lifting an entire island across the sea.
Kaido also has advanced observation haki (future sight), which BM hasn't demonstrated.

While BM fought Marco in an inconclusive fight, had the rooftop fight, and then got defeated by Law and Kid while they started off the 2v1 relatively more injured than BM. Yes, she was part of the rooftop supernova fight, but she pretty much never got attacked at all, because the supernova were all focusing on Kaido.


Based on portrayal, I'd say Kaido extreme diff BM.
Based on feats, I'd say Kaido high diff BM.
I place more value on portrayal from Oda, since I recognize that he doesn't treat feats as quite concrete. So, I'm leaning more to extreme diff.

 

[Core D. Roy]

One Piece powerscaling = nonsense

Wouldn't that make it accurate?

I'm not in a high horse

Vs Wiki is going to measure characters feats outside of One Piece world logic

I.e. Kizaru can kick you at the speed of light, by definition that should make him 1 quintillion times stronger than everyone else

My friend, that is being on a high horse. Esu said the Vs Wiki thing was nonsense, and you replied with one piece powerscaling in general being nonsense. Vs Wiki is very obviously dumb as dirt and nobody with any sense is using that as their metric for powerscaling.

 

[kkck]

In context, I don't think kizaru actually kicks at the speed of light. Barring the speed of light being much slower within OP. My guess is that kizaru can transform into light as we have seen and head into specific directions while in said state and then materialize and then kick you normally. Which is still pretty OP but a far cry from something that should break physics.

 

[HereNThere]

The context points to Big Mom being comparable enought to Kaido to the point where she's one of the few alive with the potential to kill him (with him acknowledging such). Unfortunately, she just got shafted in the sense that the majority of the Yonkou Saga was mainly building towards Kaido, with his home turf Wano being the cumulation of that.

WCI was her main arc, but, due to our plot-protected protagonists, we couldn't allow her to really show out because...well, the story would've ended then and there. So she was in a place where she couldn't be beaten at that point, as the characters weren't strong enough, but she also couldn't beat them, because she was way too strong. So, in the end, she had to get shuffled to Wano where the focus was largely on Kaido because of his relevance to the current status quo of the land. And where he was continuously hyped up.

That's not to say that her fight with Kidd and Law didn't show that she was a badass who held the advantage over them, but, this is the same arc that showed Kaido's nonstop gauntlet that he nearly came out on top of. Not much of a comparison. He was given the focus and the fights, while she wasn't.

Big Mom was just stuck between a rock and a hard place due to how the plot was set up.

 

[Nie Li]

In context, I don't think kizaru actually kicks at the speed of light. Barring the speed of light being much slower within OP. My guess is that kizaru can transform into light as we have seen and head into specific directions while in said state and then materialize and then kick you normally. Which is still pretty OP but a far cry from something that should break physics.

I think physics are plenty broken by many other things in the series. His speed is more of a cool factor than something to be numerically calculated, but he himself seems to believe he can kick at the speed of light, and it's believable given his power.

 

[catagon87]

I think physics are plenty broken by many other things in the series. His speed is more of a cool factor than something to be numerically calculated, but he himself seems to believe he can kick at the speed of light, and it's believable given his power.

Kizaru can be summed up as:
Ability to move at the speed of light. Preferred method of transportation? Riding a cannonball.

We can obviously discard physics, because if Kizaru traveled at the speed of light he'd be bending space/time which would cause some weirdness.

I like to think that he just turns his leg into light, subsequently launching it at the speed of light, then makes it tangible sometime before the kick connects. Even with insanely rapid deceleration from adding mass to that speed suddenly, it'd be faster than just about anything else in OP.

 

[LadyVados]

In 1052 we can clearly see Zoro being portrayed together with Luffy… with the same expression, both sleeping together, having sponge baths together, being referred to by Yamato as Wano’s Heroes and him/her praying and fasting for them both to get better, etc.

It’s clear Oda is creating a parallel between them. Zoro is Luffy’s Sasuke. Luffy may look a lot stronger now (like Naruto did at several points in the story) but Zoro will catch up even if as the MC Luffy will be made to look better.

 

[catagon87]

In 1052 we can clearly see Zoro being portrayed together with Luffy… with the same expression, both sleeping together, having sponge baths together, being referred to by Yamato as Wano’s Heroes and him/her praying and fasting for them both to get better, etc.

I don't think Yamato even met Zoro a single time before he woke up.

It’s clear Oda is creating a parallel between them. Zoro is Luffy’s Sasuke. Luffy may look a lot stronger now (like Naruto did at several points in the story) but Zoro will catch up even if as the MC Luffy will be made to look better.

There is no parallel to be had between Luffy/Zoro and Naruto/Sasuke. Luffy already fought Zoro, on Whiskey Peak, decades ago (or pre-TS manga-time..)
They will not fight again at any point. Zoro will become the WSS and Luffy will become PK; Two goals which do not conflict with one another.

Also worth noting that we will never see Zoro take out a main arc villain. He will always take out the top commander of the main villain. If Luffy fights Akainu, then Zoro will probably fight Kizaru. If Luffy fights Blackbeard, then Zoro will fight Shiryu. If Luffy fights Shanks, then Zoro will fight Hawkeye.

 

[Nie Li]

I don't think Yamato even met Zoro a single time before he woke up.



There is no parallel to be had between Luffy/Zoro and Naruto/Sasuke. Luffy already fought Zoro, on Whiskey Peak, decades ago (or pre-TS manga-time..)
They will not fight again at any point. Zoro will become the WSS and Luffy will become PK; Two goals which do not conflict with one another.

Also worth noting that we will never see Zoro take out a main arc villain. He will always take out the top commander of the main villain. If Luffy fights Akainu, then Zoro will probably fight Kizaru. If Luffy fights Blackbeard, then Zoro will fight Shiryu. If Luffy fights Shanks, then Zoro will fight Hawkeye.

Zoro took out Morgan. Checkmate atheists.

Just joking, there's definitely no parallelism with Sasuke and Naruto, and I do agree that they'll never fight each other again. Zoro's been given occasional priviledges like taking out the 5th movie's main villain, or the Morgan thing, but it's been a very long time (ever since Arlong Park) since he started taking out the second strongest guys and he'll keep going that way, and that's fine. He takes out some very badass guys.

However, regarding their respective strength in the future, there's something to be said.

I do think Zoro will more or less catch up to Luffy (he has to become "Yonkou-level" to defeat Mihawk and that one needs to be a fair 1v1 duel to mean anything) unless of course Luffy goes well beyond into a new tier of strength in the next arcs, which is also enitrely possible but not likely in my opinion. I think Luffy will get "stronger" (as in, more skillful) as he masters Gear 5 and comes up with new moves or discovers new toon powers but that's it. His three hakis are strong enough to engage anyone else in combat. Blackbeard and Akainu both should be around Kaido's level, so there's no need for further powercreeping to keep the remaining fights interesting, and it would be detrimental to the worldbuilding unless it's Im who turns out to be on a different level.

It will be similar to Rayleigh being somewhat comparable (and compared by mostly everyone in-series) to Roger despite we all knowing Roger has to be stronger than him, or Beckman to Shanks.

Also rolf at Mihawk being Shank's top commander.

 

[catagon87]

Zoro took out Morgan. Checkmate atheists.

Plot twist. The real villain was hunger, and Luffy defeated the villain by picking up the dirty rice ball to feed it to Zoro.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Also rolf at Mihawk being Shank's top commander.

Right? I just about died laughing. Mihawk being Shanks top Commander when he couldn't even get past YC level 5 Vista?

So funny. Mihawk is Rockstar level, MAX

(Does he take the bait)

 

[catagon87]

Right? I just about died laughing. Mihawk being Shanks top Commander when he couldn't even get past YC level 5 Vista?

So funny. Mihawk is Rockstar level, MAX

(Does he take the bait)

I'm more partial to the Mihawk joins Buggy fanfic.
Luffy vs Buggy
Zoro vs Cabaji
Sanji vs Mohji
Brook vs Mihawk

 

[Pirate Queen]

I'm more partial to the Mihawk joins Buggy fanfic.
Luffy vs Buggy
Zoro vs Cabaji
Sanji vs Mohji
Brook vs Mihawk

Yeah mihawk joining Mihawk is right on par with Buggy being a Yonko. I totally see it happening, even Mihawk joining g Buggy being the main reason Buggy even became a Yonko.

Mihawk joining Shanks I want because it would be pure fanservice

 

[grey matter]

Zoro took out Morgan. Checkmate atheists.

Just joking, there's definitely no parallelism with Sasuke and Naruto, and I do agree that they'll never fight each other again. Zoro's been given occasional priviledges like taking out the 5th movie's main villain, or the Morgan thing, but it's been a very long time (ever since Arlong Park) since he started taking out the second strongest guys and he'll keep going that way, and that's fine. He takes out some very badass guys.

However, regarding their respective strength in the future, there's something to be said.

I do think Zoro will more or less catch up to Luffy (he has to become "Yonkou-level" to defeat Mihawk and that one needs to be a fair 1v1 duel to mean anything) unless of course Luffy goes well beyond into a new tier of strength in the next arcs, which is also enitrely possible but not likely in my opinion. I think Luffy will get "stronger" (as in, more skillful) as he masters Gear 5 and comes up with new moves or discovers new toon powers but that's it. His three hakis are strong enough to engage anyone else in combat. Blackbeard and Akainu both should be around Kaido's level, so there's no need for further powercreeping to keep the remaining fights interesting, and it would be detrimental to the worldbuilding unless it's Im who turns out to be on a different level.

It will be similar to Rayleigh being somewhat comparable (and compared by mostly everyone in-series) to Roger despite we all knowing Roger has to be stronger than him, or Beckman to Shanks.

Also rolf at Mihawk being Shank's top commander.

When Zoro becomes Yonko level, Luffy becomes Roger/peak-WB level. So, Luffy will always be a cut above.

Akainu probably is around Kaido level, but Blackbeard is gonna keep getting stronger. Blackbeard will reach Rocks level, which might be Roger level too, so there is still a bit of power creep left in the series

 

[Nie Li]

When Zoro becomes Yonko level, Luffy becomes Roger/peak-WB level. So, Luffy will always be a cut above.

Akainu probably is around Kaido level, but Blackbeard is gonna keep getting stronger. Blackbeard will reach Rocks level, which might be Roger level too, so there is still a bit of power creep left in the series

For now I am unsure about how Roger and Prime WB compare to the current top tiers because as masters of CoC imbuement there shouldn't be a huge gap between them. At least not nearly as noticeably as the abyss between Yonko and YC1.

I know Roger and Prime WB were the strongests, I don't want to sound as if I'm questioning that, just by how much.

I'll gladly accept the gap being wider than I thought if the next saga gives us some surprising feats or some next tier haki stuff (though I believe it'd be kinda hard to justify Kaido not having mastered it with how obsessed with haki he was and how he has mastered everything else and how he thought only JoyBoy could defeat him).

 

[grey matter]

For now I am unsure about how Roger and Prime WB compare to the current top tiers because as masters of CoC imbuement there shouldn't be a huge gap between them. At least not nearly as noticeably as the abyss between Yonko and YC1.

I know Roger and Prime WB were the strongests, I don't want to sound as if I'm questioning that, just by how much.

I'll gladly accept the gap being wider than I thought if the next saga gives us some surprising feats or some next tier haki stuff (though I believe it'd be kinda hard to justify Kaido not having mastered it with how obsessed with haki he was and how he has mastered everything else and how he thought only JoyBoy could defeat him).

Old Whitebeard (in meds) was regarded as the strongest Yonko unanimously, putting him above Kaido as well. He had conqueror's haki on par with Shanks, who is most likely the strongest conqueror's haki user alive currently.

Considering that, I'd assume that peak Whitebeard was a decent cut above Kaido. It's probably going to be a mid-high (lean high) diff win for prime WB.

I also see Zoro as being a mid-high (lean high usually, lean mid currently) diff opponent for Luffy,
So, I assume that's where he will end up as well in the finale as well. EOS Zoro probably will be mid-high (lean high) diff material for Luffy

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 12, 2022, Original Post Date: Jul 12, 2022 ---

I'll gladly accept the gap being wider than I thought if the next saga gives us some surprising feats or some next tier haki stuff (though I believe it'd be kinda hard to justify Kaido not having mastered it with how obsessed with haki he was and how he has mastered everything else and how he thought only JoyBoy could defeat him).

But yeah, we'll get the answer in next arc.
It'll depend on how strong Akainu ends up being, because that's the floor for Whitebeard at his weakest.

Old Whitebeard in Marineford (without meds, i.e sick) was slightly above Akainu.

If Akainu end up being an absolute boss, being at least comparable to Kaido, that would mean:
peak WB > old WB (in meds) > old WB (out of meds) >= Akaini ~ Kaido >= Shanks ~ Mihawk

 

[HereNThere]

Mihawk joining Shanks I want because it would be pure fanservice

It'd really be the most convenient thing to do. They already have history, Mihawk would just be an ally who isn't subservient to Shanks, and everyone relevant would get to be in the same place at the same time.

Thinking about it now, the two probably even have one another's Vivre Cards. Otherwise, how would Mihawk even know where to find Shanks to show him Luffy's new bounty?

 

[Fox666]

It'd really be the most convenient thing to do. They already have history, Mihawk would just be an ally who isn't subservient to Shanks, and everyone relevant would get to be in the same place at the same time.

Thinking about it now, the two probably even have one another's Vivre Cards. Otherwise, how would Mihawk even know where to find Shanks to show him Luffy's new bounty?

So far all Emperors have been easy to find

Whitebeard, Big Mom, Kaido, Blackbeard, none of them were trying to hide

 

[LadyVados]

But with Roger (probably) being a swordsman. (Again I don’t think Oda cares as much about ‘pure swordsmen’ as people on One Piece Forums do), it is looking possible that Zoro might surpass Roger. If that is the case, unless Oda goes really crazy with his powercreep, I can definitely see EOS Zoro and Luffy being somewhat comparable.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 13, 2022, Original Post Date: Jul 13, 2022 ---

Old Whitebeard (in meds) was regarded as the strongest Yonko unanimously, putting him above Kaido as well. He had conqueror's haki on par with Shanks, who is most likely the strongest conqueror's haki user alive currently.

Considering that, I'd assume that peak Whitebeard was a decent cut above Kaido. It's probably going to be a mid-high (lean high) diff win for prime WB.

I also see Zoro as being a mid-high (lean high usually, lean mid currently) diff opponent for Luffy,
So, I assume that's where he will end up as well in the finale as well. EOS Zoro probably will be mid-high (lean high) diff material for Luffy

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 12, 2022, Original Post Date: Jul 12, 2022 ---

But yeah, we'll get the answer in next arc.
It'll depend on how strong Akainu ends up being, because that's the floor for Whitebeard at his weakest.

Old Whitebeard in Marineford (without meds, i.e sick) was slightly above Akainu.

If Akainu end up being an absolute boss, being at least comparable to Kaido, that would mean:
peak WB > old WB (in meds) > old WB (out of meds) >= Akaini ~ Kaido >= Shanks ~ Mihawk

Honestly even being a high diff fight for Luffy would be catching up since most would say current Zoro would be a mid or even a low diff fight for Current Luffy.

The question is will Luffy ever become strong enough that a Yonko or Mihawk or Akainu wouldn’t be able to give him a hard fight… I personally don’t think so.

 

[grey matter]

But with Roger (probably) being a swordsman. (Again I don’t think Oda cares as much about ‘pure swordsmen’ as people on One Piece Forums do), it is looking possible that Zoro might surpass Roger. If that is the case, unless Oda goes really crazy with his powercreep, I can definitely see EOS Zoro and Luffy being somewhat comparable.

Roger most likely is treated as a swordsman by Oda. The thing is though, Mihawk has the title of WSS when Roger isn't alive now. He was in his teens when Roger died and nowhere close to his peak, so pretty sure he didn't get his title when Roger was still alive.

Mihawk also outright admitted that the title of the pirate king is harder than WSS.

The best that can be reasonably argued is that Mihawk > Shanks. Not only because Shanks is a swordsman, also because Mihawk lost interest in Shanks after he lost his arm.

Honestly even being a high diff fight for Luffy would be catching up since most would say current Zoro would be a mid or even a low diff fight for Current Luffy.

The question is will Luffy ever become strong enough that a Yonko or Mihawk or Akainu wouldn’t be able to give him a hard fight… I personally don’t think so.

Yeah, can definitely agree with that.

The gap between Luffy and Zoro currently, is the largest it has ever been in the series.

I've always felt that Zoro could probably give Luffy a high diff, until this arc. Right now, Zoro can probably give him a mid diff, and even that's me giving Zoro the benefit of the doubt due to relative portrayal.
Zoro usually hits harder than Luffy, but currently Luffy most likely even hits harder than him. Zoro has advantage over Luffy in pretty much no stats at this point.

If EOS Zoro can end up giving EOS Luffy a high diff, that would definitely be catching up relative to where he is now.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 13, 2022, Original Post Date: Jul 13, 2022 ---

The question is will Luffy ever become strong enough that a Yonko or Mihawk or Akainu wouldn’t be able to give him a hard fight… I personally don’t think so.

We'll have to see.

Peak Whitebeard was probably at a level where Kaido would've been a mid-high diff for him.

Let's see how strong Akainu ends up being. Akainu's PL is the floor for where Whitebeard at his weakest (old and sick) is. Peak WB is certainly a tier above Akainu just based on this alone.
If Akainu turns out to be an absolute boss in the next arc, we can safely assume peak WB is a tier above all of the currently alive top tiers.

Roger/peak-WB level is likely where EOS Luffy going to be