One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[kkck]

I read the chapter, seems like we have no way to know at all, since we have no view of King's back. Might need to wait for anime for that.



On bold part. No, this is incorrect. I just read the chapter.

Zoro mentions about his attacks hurting, towards the very finale of the fight. After seeing King block and dodge his attacks.

onepiece-mangaonline.com

It kinda shows Zoro going from:
"Well I have to wait for this dude to use his speed mode"

To:
"Well, seems like I can harm hum anyway afterall"



I don't think this is the case.

The defence mode is his default mode. In fact, until Zoro vs King, we have never even seen King without flames on his back.
If anything, the speed mode is his non default mode.

This is why the scientists can do whatever the hell they want on King as a kid, and he ends up fine. Because by default he is always in his defence mode/



You mean Marco dealt only superficial damage to them?
I doubt bleeding from your mouth while sitting on your ass is superficial damage.



He didn't "shrugg off" the damage.

The Scabbards legit knocked him out for a while, and he was bleeding buckets.
Zoro and Luffy (both pre advanced conqueror's) were also hurting him, making him bleed, making him dodge etc

It's just that advanced conqueror's is far more effective against Kaido than advanced armament.



While I certainly believe that absolute brute force can eventually put a dent on even the strongest of defences. I don't think Marco's here was specifically that case.

Do you think Marco hits vastly superior to rooftop Zoro? Because that is the only way the "Marco just had that much attack power" argument works here.

Rooftop Zoro managed to make Kaido bleed and dodge, and King completely no sold his attacks. You think Marco's attack power is on a completely different tier from this Zoro?
I would say that Marco's attack power is comparable to rooftop Zoro's. And definitely not enough to get past King's defences.

The logical explanation would be that Pheonix flames are simply superior to most flames, including King's. So it countered King's defence mode by disrupting whatever King's flames does.

Welp, if we consider the how the bit about kaido's and big mom's invulnerability was handled in the arc... I think the situation here is that for the most part there's no such thing as invulnerability. During the fight zoro kinda figured out how he is supposed to use his haki which caused his offensive power to spike. He might have even been using cladding. At that point king stopped simply eating attacks, he started dodging. And he also makes the point that he was nearing his limit. EVen when before zoro's attacks weren't doing much of anything apparently. So... I am thinking that once zoro figured out how to actually use his haki his power spiked enough that they were doing some damage even through his defense mode. Which would be what ultimately pressured king into attack mode.

 

[grey matter]

King was no selling attacks from a Zoro who wasn't putting everything in those attacks as he was against Kaido i.e. Zoro not using AdCoC. Zoro without using AdCoC, in my opinion, is indeed weaker than Marco. With AdCoC, Zoro is comparable to, if not stronger than, Marco, with the main difference being Zoro's increased lethality, which allows him to take down his foes a lot quicker than Marco could potentially.

Zoro wasn't using advanced conqueror's against Kaido either. Until the final attack with Asura.

All other attacks were advanced armament. Which was what Zoro used against King too, and King no sold them. Literally the same attacks used against Kaido - the dragon twister, one sword attack etc.

In terms of attack power:
Advanced conqueror's Zoro >> advanced armament Zoro (i.e rooftop Zoro) ~ Marco

It should also be noted that all of Zoro's AdCoC attacks were done on a King who was at his most vulnerable in Speed Mode. While it is implied that King was worried that Zoro would eventually cut him in Defense Mode, it was never shown and the final attack landed on him while he wasn't using his flames.

I think the logical explanation is that Marco is just capable of bypassing King's defenses through his physical attacks and/or shockwaves, as shown and stated in the series. Nothing we were shown implies that Marco's Phoneix flames were the reason he was able to harm King, especially when he wasn't shown using his fruit to do his knee attack. Oda has had no issues expositing Marco's wacky flames, as he did for the Ice Oni stuff and against Prometheus, so if it was effective against King's flames, I would think he'd notate there as well.

Yeah, but like you said, King started dodging even in his defence mode. Obvious narrative from Oda here was that, yeah getting hit by advanced conqueror Zoro is gonna hurt him even in defence mode.
As for whether the final attack was in his defence or offence mode, we don't know because the angle didn't show us his back....we will have to wait for anime to clear it up.
Though IMO, it was defence mode, because King was using fire attacks, and previous instances of him using fire attacks were all in his defence mode. Plus, the narrative of this happening right after "well, it will hurt you after all, don't it?" and "your species cannot beat me".

Ehh, I just don't see Marco hitting far superior to dragon twister which hurt Kaido. At best, he can hit on the same level as rooftop Zoro, which is pretty high itself and maybe even overestimating Marco . Honestly, in rooftop, Zoro had the highest attack power IMO, until Luffy got advanced conqueror's.
As for Phoenix flames, there is the instance of those flames overpowering BM's flames, so there is precedence for Marco's flame disrupting regular flames.

Phoenix flames don’t burn they do have special properties but they don’t seem to have standard attack properties
And king and queen received superficial damage from Marco , it wasn’t like king was bleeding and coughing blood , it was superficial damage relatively
Especially considering queen walked it off pretty well , Marco seems to like “bite” his speciality seems to be stalling + defense + speed

Nah, they do burn.
If we are going by myths of the actual phoenix, Phoenix has insane flames.

It was just the particular flames he used on the alliance which didn't burn. Because it's purpose was completely different. It was to heal, not burn.

 

[LaGOAT]

What is "ougi" ?
As for it being inconsistency, likely yes. But then again, there is precedence of Marco screwing with flames of BM. We know that King's defence is somehow related to the flames, so Marco might have screwed around that as well.

But yeah, he was no selling attacks before advanced conqueror's, the same attacks which damaged Kaido and made him dodge. The minimum damage output needed to damage him is pretty high.
IMO, he went to speed mode only because Zoro got advanced conqueror's to begin with. He didn't want to risk getting hit, so he decided to blitz (well, that didn't work all that good for him).

People really try arguing like "you just need to be fast enough to force him to speed mode, cause he wouldn't be able to tag you otherwise".

Well.......it's not like King's defence mode is exactly slow either.
In fact, his defence mode has CQC/combat-speed relative to current Zoro (his base form had combat speed about same current Zoro, and Zoan/Hybrid forms which were a bit above current Zoro), and above pre Germa-bio raid suit Sanji (what happened during beginning of raid).

Saying someone is fast enough to not get tagged by defence mode King, is like saying someone is fast enough to not get tagged by current Zoro and raid suit Sanji (pre Germa-bio).
There aren't really many characters who are that fast. And if they do exist, are Yonko tiers who should be able to brute force him anyway..

King even has a counter for someone hypothetically that fast, but without advanced conqueor's haki.
He can just allow them free hits and explode himself on contact, like he did against Zoro.



Marco made King bleed, he did hurt him.

Based on feats, Marco should be able to beat him IMO (assuming that phoenix flames indeed counter King's defence, and that it wasn't some inconsistency).
Marco was so fast that he was on the offense against both King and Queen. Marco's attacks were also demonstrably hurting King. His flames also seem to be of superior quality to King's own, at least until King pulls out his magma-esque flames (magma is probably the only "flame" which is superior to Marco's.).

Can u show me where Marco made king bleed? I don’t recall that happening. 2. if Marco was going all out the king wasn’t going all out. He did not use all his abilities when fighting Marco on stop of that do u think that the feats Marco vs the yonkos can’t be replicated by King?

 

[grey matter]

Can u show me where Marco made king bleed? I don’t recall that happening.

Spoiler

if Marco was going all out the king wasn’t going all out. He did not use all his abilities when fighting Marco on stop of that do u think that the feats Marco vs the yonkos can’t be replicated by King?

Yeah, I think Marco went all out.
King had the magma-esque flames left to show, but everything else he probably used on Marco

But, additional context is that:
- Marco fought BM for nearly as long as Scabbards vs Kaido. Came out of it unscathed, but likely spent a good amount of stamina there
- Marco spent considerable stamina healing up the entire floor of samurai and beast pirates
- It was a 1v2 for the most part, and he was so fast that he was in the offensive in most of the fight that we saw.

As for whether these can be replicated by King......well, Greenbull kinda stomped him, along with Queen and rest of BP. Even though he was certainly not at full power, he still had a week+ to recover and is an ancient Zoan. Not a good look tbh.

While Marco has feats vs admirals - fought equally with Kizaru until handcuff, and matched an attack from Akainu. And data book/vivre card hyping him up as someone capable of giving admirals a tough fight.
And in this arc, has the feats of fighting against BM for a considerable time, ending with her praising Marco saying she can't afford to spend souls (energy) on him. He also blocked blast breath from Kaido.

 

[XXGenesis]

Love the discussion going on at hand. But I have to say it’s an inconsistency on Oda’s part. The topics at hand generates too many different perspectives and doesn’t provide enough context to What exactly was Oda trying to portray in these scenes? & what did he mean with the dialogue.

Zoro used the same technique he used on Kaido. King replies Yes he is MORE durable/special.

This alone makes you question how did Marco hurt King. DF Power? Strong enough Haki?!/Physical force?! It’s not explained or hinted at…that’s an inconsistency compared to Zoro’s interactions with King…..It’s rlly an inconsistency but if I had to guess its Marco’s DF powers using my best logic.

King vs Zoro as being talked about has inconsistency too. Zoro inner monologues figuring out King’s race to defeat him. Which he was/is correct. Knowing the Lunarians ability of their flames is how you take advantage of them not being more durable than Kaido or otherwise invincible??.

Zoro disregards figuring out King’s race & uniqueness, ironicly at the same time he unlocks adCoC; To only strike when King’s defense flames were down. King responds to dodge instead of tank & go strictly offensive in his speed mode. & loses.

Like seriously how is Oda’s intent clear here? When we never see our simple questions get answered. We get the reversed King is defeated in his offensive mode not the superior defensive mode we witnessed…

Big Mom vs Kidd is the same thing. Oda was establishing a precedence that Yonkou like Big Mom/Kaido could only be hurt by Advance haki…I.E Damage that hurt Kaido; Kidd’s DF ability he controls physical objects, so even if he’s using an awakening…I thought Big Mom can brush off any physical attack not packing enough haki. Idk if Giant beams were suppose to hurt her…Oda could even illustrate well or give dialogue if haki was behind any of these grandiose physical attacks.

 

[HereNThere]

Zoro wasn't using advanced conqueror's against Kaido either. Until the final attack with Asura.

All other attacks were advanced armament. Which was what Zoro used against King too, and King no sold them. Literally the same attacks used against Kaido - the dragon twister, one sword attack etc.

In terms of attack power:
Advanced conqueror's Zoro >> advanced armament Zoro (i.e rooftop Zoro) ~ Marco

Even though Wano Style Haki was making Kaido bleed and hurting him, it wasn't until AdCoC came into play that it was exceedingly clear that everything before then was likely superficial for Kaido. The Scabbards were also causing Kaido to bleed and scream in pain, but in the end, we know Kaido wasn't at all that affected by it. Zoro made Kaido dodge pre AdCoC. Luffy also made Kaido dodge pre AdCoC. But given what we've seen later, those hits likely wouldn't have mattered to Kaido. So King no-selling Zoro's non AdCoC attacks, to me, makes sense, especially with his specialized durability.

So, in my opinion, I'd say AdCoC Zoro =/> Marco > Rooftop Zoro.

Yeah, but like you said, King started dodging even in his defence mode. Obvious narrative from Oda here was that, yeah getting hit by advanced conqueror Zoro is gonna hurt him even in defence mode.
As for whether the final attack was in his defence or offence mode, we don't know because the angle didn't show us his back....we will have to wait for anime to clear it up.
Though IMO, it was defence mode, because King was using fire attacks, and previous instances of him using fire attacks were all in his defence mode. Plus, the narrative of this happening right after "well, it will hurt you after all, don't it?" and "your species cannot beat me".

Ehh, I just don't see Marco hitting far superior to dragon twister which hurt Kaido. At best, he can hit on the same level as rooftop Zoro, which is pretty high itself and maybe even overestimating Marco . Honestly, in rooftop, Zoro had the highest attack power IMO, until Luffy got advanced conqueror's.
As for Phoenix flames, there is the instance of those flames overpowering BM's flames, so there is precedence for Marco's flame disrupting regular flames.

It's possible, but again, Oda never showed Zoro striking King during his flame mode. Which is weird, seeing as how Zoro was going to be victorious anyway and it wouldn't have made a difference at that point. Yet, he made a big show of Zoro timing his attacks specifically to deal damage to King.

I think it was pretty clear he wasn't in Defense Mode. There is a panel right before Zoro's attack lands that shows a close-up of King's face and no flames can be seen behind him. Another panel on that page shows his back and it doesn't have flames on it. In other close-ups at various points earlier in the fight and arc, his flames can clearly be seen behind his head. Personally, I think Zoro was taunting King about him being more careful after all his big talk. I do think, if Zoro had the time to adapt, Zoro would've eventually bypassed King's Defense mode, but at that moment, he had no time and it wasn't shown that he was able to do it.

If Marco's attacks could make Defense Mode King bleed, it should certainly be effective against Kaido. His attacks aren't going to leave a mark, but he's a hand to hand fighter like Luffy, so we shouldn't expect them to. In all of Luffy's attacks post AdCoC awakening, none of his attacks left a scar on Kaido, but we can assume they were stronger than Zoro's Asura, which didn't even force Kaido to take a knee, something Zoro admitted was his goal.

 

[LadyVados]

In all of Luffy's attacks post AdCoC awakening, none of his attacks left a scar on Kaido, but we can assume they were stronger than Zoro's Asura, which didn't even force Kaido to take a knee, something Zoro admitted was his goal.

I disagree with this. They barely did any damage to him. A punch has a lot of kinetic energy which knocks someone down. That’s different from a cut doing so much damage that someone collapses.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Zoro wasn't using advanced conqueror's against Kaido either. Until the final attack with Asura.

All other attacks were advanced armament. Which was what Zoro used against King too, and King no sold them. Literally the same attacks used against Kaido - the dragon twister, one sword attack etc.

In terms of attack power:
Advanced conqueror's Zoro >> advanced armament Zoro (i.e rooftop Zoro) ~ Marco



Yeah, but like you said, King started dodging even in his defence mode. Obvious narrative from Oda here was that, yeah getting hit by advanced conqueror Zoro is gonna hurt him even in defence mode.
As for whether the final attack was in his defence or offence mode, we don't know because the angle didn't show us his back....we will have to wait for anime to clear it up.
Though IMO, it was defence mode, because King was using fire attacks, and previous instances of him using fire attacks were all in his defence mode. Plus, the narrative of this happening right after "well, it will hurt you after all, don't it?" and "your species cannot beat me".

Ehh, I just don't see Marco hitting far superior to dragon twister which hurt Kaido. At best, he can hit on the same level as rooftop Zoro, which is pretty high itself and maybe even overestimating Marco . Honestly, in rooftop, Zoro had the highest attack power IMO, until Luffy got advanced conqueror's.
As for Phoenix flames, there is the instance of those flames overpowering BM's flames, so there is precedence for Marco's flame disrupting regular flames.



Nah, they do burn.
If we are going by myths of the actual phoenix, Phoenix has insane flames.

It was just the particular flames he used on the alliance which didn't burn. Because it's purpose was completely different. It was to heal, not burn.

It literally doesn’t burn in one piece though it was said in sbs it’s not particularly an “offensive” minded fruit, Oda answered it in an sbs it doesn’t spread nor burns

 

[Rein Avara]

I disagree with this. They barely did any damage to him. A punch has a lot of kinetic energy which knocks someone down. That’s different from a cut doing so much damage that someone collapses.

That's extremely dismissive, cuts & punches have very different effects.
Luffy's punches more so internal damage, he was making Kaido spit out blood consistently after he started using advanced CoC, that tells us that there was some degree of internal bleeding being caused by Luffy.

Sure it's easier to do external damage with a sword, but with enough force you fracture a skull with a punch, you can break someones rib cage to the point where it leads to massive internal bleeding and they die, this would not be visible externally but the person would be in a lot of pain.

So I think your argument that Luffy barely did any damage is just straight up wrong.

 

[LadyVados]

That's extremely dismissive, cuts & punches have very different effects.
Luffy's punches more so internal damage, he was making Kaido spit out blood consistently after he started using advanced CoC, that tells us that there was some degree of internal bleeding being caused by Luffy.

Sure it's easier to do external damage with a sword, but with enough force you fracture a skull with a punch, you can break someones rib cage to the point where it leads to massive internal bleeding and they die, this would not be visible externally but the person would be in a lot of pain.

So I think your argument that Luffy barely did any damage is just straight up wrong.

The thing with Luffy’s punches are that they are cumulative damage. He hits an enemy several times. It’s death by a thousand cuts. Kata literally hit Luffy like 200 times in their fight. Vista would take way less hits than that to KO that version of Luffy.

The same energy when applied in a bladed attack will always do more damage then when in a blunt force attack. Not counting special circumstances such as armoured opponents. A 90 lb person can kill a 200 lb person with a stab of a knife, with a hit from a stick ? Much more difficult.

Swords are force multipliers, they can cut off a limb or a head. That’s why a sword is better weapon than a club- except maybe against an armoured opponent.

Luffy didn’t do so much damage to Kaido he collapsed it was the force of his punches that lifted him off the ground and caused him to fall on his back. Sort of like Jinbei sending BM flying.

Also after defeating Luffy Kaido seems to be mostly fine and uninjured so I think I am right in saying that Kaido didn’t actually suffer all that much damage from the 1010 fight. Luffy didn’t crack his skull or break any bones.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 23, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 23, 2022 ---

Spoiler: 1058

Almost the same bounty as Shanks with no crew or territories and more than 3 of the 4 Yonko…

I honestly have Mihawk as Top 1 in the verse. I don’t think he stomps Shanks or anything, it’s probably extreme diff but he is beating him IMO or anyone else for that matter. Not counting the total unknown who is Imu.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Comparing what Luffy did to Kaido, akin to Jinbei and Big Mam, is hilarious. Luffy was making Kaido spit blood up by Kaido. Caping for Zoro by saying he does slashing damage, and that's why he didn't knock Kaido down defeats the purpose of him saying he was disappointed he couldn't knock him down. Luffy didn't do a crazy amount of damage to Kaido that round, but he was by far the most effective fighter at that time.

 

[grey matter]

Even though Wano Style Haki was making Kaido bleed and hurting him, it wasn't until AdCoC came into play that it was exceedingly clear that everything before then was likely superficial for Kaido. The Scabbards were also causing Kaido to bleed and scream in pain, but in the end, we know Kaido wasn't at all that affected by it. Zoro made Kaido dodge pre AdCoC. Luffy also made Kaido dodge pre AdCoC. But given what we've seen later, those hits likely wouldn't have mattered to Kaido. So King no-selling Zoro's non AdCoC attacks, to me, makes sense, especially with his specialized durability.

Yeah, I definitely agree that advanced conqueror's >> advanced armament, in effect to Kaido. I'm just saying that, it was still dealing damage to Kaido.
And yes, we are on the same page that the attacks Kaido dodged from Luffy and Zoro, wouldn't have done significant damage. Though they definitely hurt him.

Say, Scabbards took away 5% of Kaido's HP after the whole fight.
They wouldn't take even 1% hp from King.

Anyway, the point of all this was to say that it's hard to argue that Marco hits harder than rooftop Zoro. At best, he hits at that level, and we know this isn't enough to damage King.
Hence, IMO something else was needed. Like Phoenix flames.

So, in my opinion, I'd say AdCoC Zoro =/> Marco > Rooftop Zoro.

Are you talking about pure attack power, or overall level?

Cause I consider Marco to be stronger than even current Zoro.
Marco >= current Zoro >> rooftop Zoro

But what about attack power, that is an entirely different topic? What suggests that Marco has attack power comparable to even rooftop Zoro, let alone current Zoro? In terms of attack power, IMO:
Current Zoro >> rooftop Zoro >= Marco

It's possible, but again, Oda never showed Zoro striking King during his flame mode. Which is weird, seeing as how Zoro was going to be victorious anyway and it wouldn't have made a difference at that point. Yet, he made a big show of Zoro timing his attacks specifically to deal damage to King.

I think it was pretty clear he wasn't in Defense Mode. There is a panel right before Zoro's attack lands that shows a close-up of King's face and no flames can be seen behind him. Another panel on that page shows his back and it doesn't have flames on it. In other close-ups at various points earlier in the fight and arc, his flames can clearly be seen behind his head. Personally, I think Zoro was taunting King about him being more careful after all his big talk. I do think, if Zoro had the time to adapt, Zoro would've eventually bypassed King's Defense mode, but at that moment, he had no time and it wasn't shown that he was able to do it.

Well, I think we can agree to disagree here. I recognize that things are quite ambiguous in the manga.

Let's wait for anime to clear up, whether the final attack was on defence mode or speed mode King.

If Marco's attacks could make Defense Mode King bleed, it should certainly be effective against Kaido. His attacks aren't going to leave a mark, but he's a hand to hand fighter like Luffy, so we shouldn't expect them to. In all of Luffy's attacks post AdCoC awakening, none of his attacks left a scar on Kaido, but we can assume they were stronger than Zoro's Asura, which didn't even force Kaido to take a knee, something Zoro admitted was his goal.

Ehh, I would argue that Asura definitely did more damage to Kaido than any single attack from 1010 Luffy did.

A punch you knock you down, even if it doesn't do much damage. But a stab wouldn't, but deals more damage.

IMO, the reason Kaido didn't fall down was to create the distinction between what Oden could do, vs what 1010 Zoro could. Because otherwise, they both did the same thing, which is scar Kaido.
The intent wasn't to compare what Zoro did, and what Luffy did soon after.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 23, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 23, 2022 ---

I disagree with this. They barely did any damage to him. A punch has a lot of kinetic energy which knocks someone down. That’s different from a cut doing so much damage that someone collapses.

1010 Luffy's attacks were clearly doing damage to Kaido.

But I agree with the point. "Zoro didn't knock Kaido down while Luffy did, hence Zoro's attack power < Luffy's" is wrong logic

Luffy's attacks even in beginning of the raid, with just advanced armament, were also knocking down Kaido. And we know for a fact that those attacks were weaker than 1010 Luffy, or Asura Zoro.
"Knocking down Kaido" doesn't really mean much

 

[LadyVados]

1010 Luffy's attacks were clearly doing damage to Kaido.

They were doing a bit of damage but they were clearly not seriously wounding them. Maybe barely doing damage wasn't the right word but they did less damage than Asura for sure and didn't cause any serious injury.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 23, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 23, 2022 ---

Spoiler: 1058

The thing that separates Zoro from Kidd and Law and Sanji and co is that we at least know, even if he is a weakling right now compared to the big guns of the verse, he will be Yonko level+ one day.

With Kidd and Law and Sanji this is not at all confirmed, they may never reach these levels.

Luffy is already a big shot. Zoro is guaranteed to be a big shot one day even if he is weak right now. Kidd, Law, Sanji, Yamato… will they ever become Yonko+ level or even Yonko level… probably not TBH.

Zoro may be down in the sticks with Jinbe and Sanji right now but one day he will have a 4B bounty and be one of the strongest people in the world. Sanji and Jinbe… I just don’t see them ever beating a Yonko-level character barring some crazy power inflation. Even Kidd and Law will probably never get a 1v1 against a Yonko tier. Which Yonko tier is left in the world for them to fight ?

 

[HereNThere]

Anyway, the point of all this was to say that it's hard to argue that Marco hits harder than rooftop Zoro. At best, he hits at that level, and we know this isn't enough to damage King.
Hence, IMO something else was needed. Like Phoenix flames.

Ah, I thought I had addressed this, but I remembered I lost my previous response yesterday. When Marco did his attack on King that made him bleed, Marco wasn't in his animal or hybrid mode and his attack wasn't Phoneix Flamed up. So, to me, it looks like that was purely physical on Marco's end. However, if he did use his fruit and we just didn't see it, it's more likely to be due to the "shock wave" effect that Queen noted his attacks to have.

Are you talking about pure attack power, or overall level?

Pure attack power. I also lean towards Marco being stronger than Zoro, but I don't think it's by much. Zoro should be at a level where he can comfortably fight someone on Marco's level and not be completely overwhelmed. I do think that Zoro's potential AP is indeed higher than Marco's, but I just don't think Marco's attack power should be underestimated or is on a vastly different tier than Zoro's current AP. Making King bleed is no small feat. Rooftop Zoro is impressive, but I don't think he was outclassing Marco attack-wise and only met and/or exceeded him when Asura came out.

Ehh, I would argue that Asura definitely did more damage to Kaido than any single attack from 1010 Luffy did.

From 1010, sure, since those were regular punches compared to one of Zoro's strongest attacks. Luffy's named attacks further in the fight? I'd say they were likely more effective than Asura.

 

[Pirate Queen]

From 1010, sure, since those were regular punches compared to one of Zoro's strongest attacks. Luffy's named attacks further in the fight? I'd say they were likely more effective than Asura.

Yeah, I'd say this was way stronger than Ashura when comparing outright damage output

 

[LadyVados]

Yeah, I'd say this was way stronger than Ashura when comparing outright damage output

You have to be baiting. You don't actually believe that shitty attack is even close to Ashura right ? right ?

insert Anakin and Padme meme

 

[Pirate Queen]

You have to be baiting. You don't actually believe that shitty attack is even close to Ashura right ? right ?

insert Anakin and Padme meme

Shitty attack? Lol Okay pal

 

[LadyVados]

Sigh. Why do I even bother.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 23, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 23, 2022 ---

Also it was a barrage and we're talking about one hit power here.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Sigh. Why do I even bother.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 23, 2022, Original Post Date: Aug 23, 2022 ---

Also it was a barrage and we're talking about one hit power here.

You "bother" because the simplest explanations confuse you for some reason.

We are talking about damage and Luffy's attack shook both Big Mom AND Kaido

The simplest context explains the difference between the two attacks fairly well.

All out G4 Kong Gatling(relatively healthy Luffy) > All out Ashura(heavily damaged Zoro)

 

[LadyVados]

You "bother" because the simplest explanations confuse you for some reason.

We are talking about damage and Luffy's attack shook both Big Mom AND Kaido

The simplest context explains the difference between the two attacks fairly well.

All out G4 Kong Gatling(relatively healthy Luffy) > All out Ashura(heavily damaged Zoro)

Luffy himself says his pre-AdCoC attacks were completely useless.

The Kong Gatling was little more than an annoyance to Kaido.

The fact that you're seriously considering that to be the stronger than an AdCoC attack that permanently scarred Kaido is dumbfounding.

I don't even rate it as high as Tatsumaki.

Asura >>>>> Ryou G4 attacks