One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

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​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[grey matter]

But if Roger was a tier above other emperors, then it shouldn't matter how big his crew was, they should have been able to beat almost any enemy regardless of size.

That's not Pirate King level, that's just Whitebeard being the strongest emperor and possibly the second strongest in recent history (he and Roger had tons of friendly fights, and Whitebeard had no desire to conquer or kill, so who knows if Whitebeard was actually stronger). If there was a Pirate King level tier, Big Mom wouldn't have felt confident taking on Whitebeard even with giants as her allies, she showed more respect to Kaidou than she did Whitebeard.

In any case, I still find tiers to be kind of silly.

That is not true. Law and Kid aren't in Yonko tier. Yet they defeated BM together, or at the very least pushed her to an extreme diff.

Another very important point even apart from the massive numbers game (~30 vs ~10000?) that I bought up in previous post as well, is that the fight wasn't happening on land. It is one ship against a massive fleet. All Shiki needs to do to win is sink Roger's ship.

And lastly. I think old WB (in meds) isn't in a tier above BM, he's in Yonko tier, just the strongest among them. All I said is that prime WB is most likely in a tier above her, because it is very reasonable to assume that prime WB is on a different tier compared to old WB (in meds), based on precedence within the series. Old Garp is healthy, and he himself says that he used to be a lot stronger when he was younger

 

[McNuss]

Okay let's give this a try. Characters in bold have enough feats to be used as actual measurement sticks, the other ones are speculative. Remember, this is not sorting characters by rank, but by strenght, in order to create a new more comprehensive system than the YC stuff.

• Fleet Admiral Tier
  • Sakazuki, Kuzan, Monkey D. Garp

Sakazuki is the Fleet Admiral, but Kuzan could very well have been, too. I could have placed Sengoku here, but while Oda likes his characters to retain strenght in old age, age is clearly an impediment as shown with Whitebeard, Chinjao, Cobra, ... Big Mom, too, she used to be slim at some point. While Garp looks the same as usual, there's notable change with Sengoku's design alongside retirement, so I am not entirely sure about this one.

• Admiral Tier
  • Issho, Aramaki, Borsalino, Sengoku, Kong

I am a bit unsure about Borsalino as the character is quite suspicious, but so far he is underachieving compared to Sakazuki/Kuzan. I'll place Sengoku here, too. Same applies to Kong

• Zodiac Vice Admiral Tier
  • Tokikake, Gion, Tensei, Sentomaru

Tensei has no feats and not even a rank, so be a bit wary here but Tokikake and Gion have been introduced to us as Admiral candidates in SBS and where later confirmed as veterans in the Red Port meeting, so hype is there. Sentomaru seems to be up there, too, being an Advanced CoA user claiming to have the strongest defense.

• Base Commander Vice Admiral Tier
  • Momonga, Comil, Vergo, Smoker (current), Tsuru, John Giant, Jaguar D. Saul

Given the animal motives behind her and her buddies Sengoku and Garp, and the character's prestige, Tsuru likely used to be the previous Aokiji, that would make alot of sense, but again age should have impeded the character who looks all shriveled up compared to her past self. John Giant is a veteran who was sold into the Marines almost a century ago, and he seems to bear some special responsibilities like receiving the Buster Call. Since Marineford was commanded by the Fleet Admiral, but since the Fleet Admiral bears responsibilities for the entire organization, I suppose John Giant is some kind of equivalent to a Base Commander for the HQ. Saul seemed legit strong, too.

• Standard Vice Admiral Tier
  • Stainless, Cancer, Mozambia, Onigumo, Doberman, Strawberry, Yamakaji, Lacroix, Lonz, Dalmatian, Bastille, Nazu Ketagari, Draw, X Drake (Post-Timeskip)

Since the Base Commanders of G3 and G4 are still unknown, some of these might actually be stronger but only Onigumo has slighty outstanding feats. While we don't know wether X Drake has internally been promoted, he seems to be Vice Admiral tier but not very high and is really disappointing in that regard.

• Rear Admiral Tier
  • Sicily, Akehende, Catacombo, Hina (current), T Bone (current), Kadar, X Drake (Pre-Timeskip), Smoker (Pre-Timeskip), Maynard, Koby (current)

X Drake and Smoker being the measurement sticks here is very important because this also sets the tone for the inclusion of the Supernova. Maynard was hinted at only recently having become a Vice Admiral and is really not up there with the others. Koby is also at least here already.

• Commodore Tier
  • Daigin, Yarisugi, Brannew (Post-Timeskip), Tashigi (current)

Tashigi is quite clearly stronger than her rank of captain.

• Captain Tier
  • Very Good, Shu, Sharinguru, Gorilla, Helmeppo (current), Hina (Pre-Timeskip), T Bone (Pre-Timeskip)

Helmeppo has no feats since the timeskip but is probably stronger than his rank, given his growth.

• Commander Tier
  • Donquixote Rosinante
• Lieutenant Commander Tier
  • Pudding Pudding, Fullbody (current), Jango (current)

I don't expect much from Jango and Fullbody

• Lieutenant Tier
  • Nezumi, Zotto, Fullbody (Pre-Skip), Morgan, Jango (Pre-Skip)
• Lieutenant Junior Grade
  • Ripper, Stalker,
• Ensign Tier
  • Makko, Tashigi (Pre-Skip)

Really nothing special about this Tashigi.

• Warrant Officer Tier
• Master Chief Petty Officer Tier
  • Rokkaku
• Chief Petty Officer Tier
  • Mashikaku, Shine, Asahija
• Petty Officer Tier Tier
• Seaman First Class Tier
  • Lines
• Seaman Apprentice Tier
• Seaman Recruit Tier
• Chore Boy
  • Koby (start), Helmeppo (start), Ukkari

Unknown: Isuka (didn't read the novel), Bogard, Candre, Brannew (Pre-Timeskip)

Since we can apply Jango=Fullbody and since Morgan also already appears in this list, going saga though saga should be piece of cake. I am leaving out EL Kobymeppo until then.

Hope I didn't forget anyone, pls check.

 

[grey matter]

Okay let's give this a try. Characters in bold have enough feats to be used as actual measurement sticks, the other ones are speculative. Remember, this is not sorting characters by rank, but by strenght, in order to create a new more comprehensive system than the YC stuff.

• Fleet Admiral Tier
  • Sakazuki, Kuzan, Monkey D. Garp

Sakazuki is the Fleet Admiral, but Kuzan could very well have been, too. I could have placed Sengoku here, but while Oda likes his characters to retain strenght in old age, age is clearly an impediment as shown with Whitebeard, Chinjao, Cobra, ... Big Mom, too, she used to be slim at some point. While Garp looks the same as usual, there's notable change with Sengoku's design alongside retirement, so I am not entirely sure about this one.

• Admiral Tier
  • Issho, Aramaki, Borsalino, Sengoku, Kong

I am a bit unsure about Borsalino as the character is quite suspicious, but so far he is underachieving compared to Sakazuki/Kuzan. I'll place Sengoku here, too. Same applies to Kong

• Zodiac Vice Admiral Tier
  • Tokikake, Gion, Tensei, Sentomaru

Tensei has no feats and not even a rank, so be a bit wary here but Tokikake and Gion have been introduced to us as Admiral candidates in SBS and where later confirmed as veterans in the Red Port meeting, so hype is there. Sentomaru seems to be up there, too, being an Advanced CoA user claiming to have the strongest defense.

• Base Commander Vice Admiral Tier
  • Momonga, Comil, Vergo, Smoker (current), Tsuru, John Giant, Jaguar D. Saul

Given the animal motives behind her and her buddies Sengoku and Garp, and the character's prestige, Tsuru likely used to be the previous Aokiji, that would make alot of sense, but again age should have impeded the character who looks all shriveled up compared to her past self. John Giant is a veteran who was sold into the Marines almost a century ago, and he seems to bear some special responsibilities like receiving the Buster Call. Since Marineford was commanded by the Fleet Admiral, but since the Fleet Admiral bears responsibilities for the entire organization, I suppose John Giant is some kind of equivalent to a Base Commander for the HQ. Saul seemed legit strong, too.

• Standard Vice Admiral Tier
  • Stainless, Cancer, Mozambia, Onigumo, Doberman, Strawberry, Yamakaji, Lacroix, Lonz, Dalmatian, Bastille, Nazu Ketagari, Draw, X Drake (Post-Timeskip)

Since the Base Commanders of G3 and G4 are still unknown, some of these might actually be stronger but only Onigumo has slighty outstanding feats. While we don't know wether X Drake has internally been promoted, he seems to be Vice Admiral tier but not very high and is really disappointing in that regard.

• Rear Admiral Tier
  • Sicily, Akehende, Catacombo, Hina (current), T Bone (current), Kadar, X Drake (Pre-Timeskip), Smoker (Pre-Timeskip), Maynard, Koby (current)

X Drake and Smoker being the measurement sticks here is very important because this also sets the tone for the inclusion of the Supernova. Maynard was hinted at only recently having become a Vice Admiral and is really not up there with the others. Koby is also at least here already.

• Commodore Tier
  • Daigin, Yarisugi, Brannew (Post-Timeskip), Tashigi (current)

Tashigi is quite clearly stronger than her rank of captain.

• Captain Tier
  • Very Good, Shu, Sharinguru, Gorilla, Helmeppo (current), Hina (Pre-Timeskip), T Bone (Pre-Timeskip)

Helmeppo has no feats since the timeskip but is probably stronger than his rank, given his growth.

• Commander Tier
  • Donquixote Rosinante
• Lieutenant Commander Tier
  • Pudding Pudding, Fullbody (current), Jango (current)

I don't expect much from Jango and Fullbody

• Lieutenant Tier
  • Nezumi, Zotto, Fullbody (Pre-Skip), Morgan, Jango (Pre-Skip)
• Lieutenant Junior Grade
  • Ripper, Stalker,
• Ensign Tier
  • Makko, Tashigi (Pre-Skip)

Really nothing special about this Tashigi.

• Warrant Officer Tier
• Master Chief Petty Officer Tier
  • Rokkaku
• Chief Petty Officer Tier
  • Mashikaku, Shine, Asahija
• Petty Officer Tier Tier
• Seaman First Class Tier
  • Lines
• Seaman Apprentice Tier
• Seaman Recruit Tier
• Chore Boy
  • Koby (start), Helmeppo (start), Ukkari

Unknown: Isuka (didn't read the novel), Bogard, Candre, Brannew (Pre-Timeskip)

Since we can apply Jango=Fullbody and since Morgan also already appears in this list, going saga though saga should be piece of cake. I am leaving out EL Kobymeppo until then.

Hope I didn't forget anyone, pls check.

I appreciate the effort, agree with most of it.

But you lowballed the heck out of X Drake. The dude is easily stronger than Vergo and Smoker. And you put him a tier below them

I'd include old characters in their prime as well. I'll put prime Tsuru in zodiac VA Tier, prime Sengoku at Fleet Admiral Tier and prime Garp at a tier above FA

 

[Fox666]

I think X Drake is close to the level of a Yonko commander?

I don't think Sentoumaru was very strong... he relied too much on the Pacifistas, and seemingly couldn't handle Chooper monster point. Both which were one-shot by Luffy post-timeskip...

 

[I Am Atomic]

But you lowballed the heck out of X Drake. The dude is easily stronger than Vergo and Smoker. And you put him a tier below them

I mean X Drake was a walking L in Wano! He sneak attacked CP0 boss and still lost.

Otherwise yes, he is supposed to be the strongest officer after the calamities.

 

[LaGOAT]

This doesn't make sense when you consider the fact that Roger only beat Shiki because of a storm. It's all open, with Whitebeard being a noticeable exception.

Bro I’m not comparing crews I’m comparing individual strength

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I think this is a bit optimistic for jinbe. IMO jinbe on land is probably weaker than doflamingo. I don't see jinbe being higher in the pecking order than that tbh. There are multiple scenarios to consider and they are all fairly different.

1.- Naval battle. Obviously jinbe is a huge asset but if he was this grossly OP in this scenario then the big mom pirates would already rule the sea. Jinbe straight up served big mom for nearly 2 years. Jinbe while underwater is by no means immune to attacks from above. It's not that insane an stretch that marines and yonko crews could actually depend their ships from jinbe. Just a few possibilities... oven can probably just boil jinbe. The WB pirates had their own fishman commander. BB can probably just yoink jinbe from the ocean with his fruit.

2.- Underwater jinbe vs big mom.... No way it takes a single attack to down big mom (barring idiocy of course). Big mom can rain both fire and fighting on jinbe. There's no scenario where a serious big mom doesn't turn underwater jinbe into a fishstick. Big mom's lightning is so powerful it can literally make what seems like a bottomless pit into the earth. Jinbe in fairness has decent odds but... an edge over big mom? big reach.

3.- For the most part, most strong fighters in the series are devil fruit users so underwater battles are pretty damn difficult to even set up. Even luffy with a bubble was hampered by the water. So to begin with only folk without devil fruits would even be able to fight at all. Pretty much every fighter in big mom's, kaido's and BB's crew is out. Some folk in WB's crew could potentially engage at all. Then of course you have folk like roger, shanks, mihawk... Zoro, sanji... I am curious on whether sanji could hold his own against jinbe underwater. Durng the raid sanji's speed was so insane he was invisible to queen. That's a monster of a feat. And of course sanji has blue walk, a technique to move at high speed underwater. Zoro probably won't be that fast of course but the question in this case would be how effective his yonko level attacks are and whether jinbe can do anythign about them. Shanks and mihawk of course would be stronger and thus more dangerous.

These are pretty good points you make. I think in a Naval battle Jinbei would be very successful sinking ships from deep underwater instead of confronting them. There definitely are enemies that would have abilities to counteract this like you pointed out so this wouldn't be a straight up win for Jinbei, just one has advantage in.

Yep I don't think Jinbei would take out BM in a single attack if it is a water battle. I just meant he has a good chance of knocking her into the ocean (rooftop proved that she can be tricked a la Kid/Law). Once BM is in water I think Jinbei's best chance of winning is doing what he can to keep her there so she drowns. She definitely still can end up beating him but in a 1v1 in water I think Jinbei ends up on average punching way above his weight class since so many of the top tier are DF users.There definitely are powerful fighters that could do well against Jinbei in water though so it's not a definite win or anything for him.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 4, 2022, Original Post Date: Sep 4, 2022 ---

I do not consider current Zoro to be a commander tier.

Ah gotcha. If Zoro masters using aCoC I can see him pulling a win but not clear how soon we will see him fighting again to get an answer.

 

[M3J]

That is not true. Law and Kid aren't in Yonko tier. Yet they defeated BM together, or at the very least pushed her to an extreme diff.

Another very important point even apart from the massive numbers game (~30 vs ~10000?) that I bought up in previous post as well, is that the fight wasn't happening on land. It is one ship against a massive fleet. All Shiki needs to do to win is sink Roger's ship.

And lastly. I think old WB (in meds) isn't in a tier above BM, he's in Yonko tier, just the strongest among them. All I said is that prime WB is most likely in a tier above her, because it is very reasonable to assume that prime WB is on a different tier compared to old WB (in meds), based on precedence within the series. Old Garp is healthy, and he himself says that he used to be a lot stronger when he was younger

Which makes the whole tier thing kind of ridiculous considering an emperor should be able to deal with anyone that isn't an emperor. Yet Big Mom lost to Kidd and Law, who apparently aren't strong enough to be in that tier. Why can't it be the same for "Pirate King" tier? At least for Roger and others?

Why would that be enough? If PK level really is a thing and Roger is on that level, then sinking his ship shouldn't be enough as long as he's not a fruit user.

Yeah, and I still disagree with prime Whitebeard being in a higher tier. Emperor/fleet admiral tier seems to be the highest, and Whitebeard, young or old, seems to have been the strongest.

Bro I’m not comparing crews I’m comparing individual strength

Okay then. Do we know if Roger ever took on Big Mom or Kaidou? If he beat Whitebeard cleanly? As far as I remember, he snuck in BIg Mom's territory to get to the Poneglyph and escaped without fighting her. And from what we've seen, Whitebeard and Roger were friends and had a friendly rivalry, but neither was in direct competition with the other. How do we know what Roger's strength was really like, other than hype?

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

Nothing like nothing in the story implies roger is that much stronger than the emperors to be in a tier invis own
Heck we saw on the journey to be PK he literally didn’t any of his yonkou counterparts at the time , he just had more information by having VOA and oden , he didn’t defeat WB shiki or linlin
Pk tier and fleet admiral just don’t exist as power levels

The EDD WAR wasn’t even an L for Shiki it was a draw with roger running away due to getting luck even

 

[LaGOAT]

Which makes the whole tier thing kind of ridiculous considering an emperor should be able to deal with anyone that isn't an emperor. Yet Big Mom lost to Kidd and Law, who apparently aren't strong enough to be in that tier. Why can't it be the same for "Pirate King" tier? At least for Roger and others?

Why would that be enough? If PK level really is a thing and Roger is on that level, then sinking his ship shouldn't be enough as long as he's not a fruit user.

Yeah, and I still disagree with prime Whitebeard being in a higher tier. Emperor/fleet admiral tier seems to be the highest, and Whitebeard, young or old, seems to have been the strongest.



Okay then. Do we know if Roger ever took on Big Mom or Kaidou? If he beat Whitebeard cleanly? As far as I remember, he snuck in BIg Mom's territory to get to the Poneglyph and escaped without fighting her. And from what we've seen, Whitebeard and Roger were friends and had a friendly rivalry, but neither was in direct competition with the other. How do we know what Roger's strength was really like, other than hype?

Simple prime wb>kaido and big mom. Roger=WB they fought and been stated to be nearly equal. I don’t remember Rogers sneaking to big mom’s territory to grab a poneglyph. his hype has been backed up so far in this story. And Rogers fought them back in the god valley plus kaido had him and Wb above him when He comparing luffy. Pretty much at this point it’s a fact

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 5, 2022, Original Post Date: Sep 5, 2022 ---

Nothing like nothing in the story implies roger is that much stronger than the emperors to be in a tier invis own
Heck we saw on the journey to be PK he literally didn’t any of his yonkou counterparts at the time , he just had more information by having VOA and oden , he didn’t defeat WB shiki or linlin
Pk tier and fleet admiral just don’t exist as power levels

The EDD WAR wasn’t even an L for Shiki it was a draw with roger running away due to getting luck even

the fact that he was in a disadvantage and was able to destroy half his fleet and shiki respects him a lot speaks volumes of Rogers

 

[M3J]

Simple prime wb>kaido and big mom. Roger=WB they fought and been stated to be nearly equal. I don’t remember Rogers sneaking to big mom’s territory to grab a poneglyph. his hype has been backed up so far in this story. And Rogers fought them back in the god valley plus kaido had him and Wb above him when He comparing luffy. Pretty much at this point it’s a fact

But how do you even know they're equal or nearly equal? And that Whitebeard wasn't holding back?

Big Mom said Roger did, and there was no implication anywhere that they fought when he infiltrated her territory.

We don't know who Roger fought. Or how the fights on the valley went. There's no fact, just conjectures.

 

[grey matter]

Which makes the whole tier thing kind of ridiculous considering an emperor should be able to deal with anyone that isn't an emperor. Yet Big Mom lost to Kidd and Law, who apparently aren't strong enough to be in that tier. Why can't it be the same for "Pirate King" tier? At least for Roger and others?

Man, what are you even saying? Doesn't make sense at all.

Just because someone is a tier above others, doesn't make them unbeatable. They can be ganged upon and beaten, just like how Law and Kid defeated BM.
Are we gonna say Law/Kid are Yonko tier individually, just cause they beat a Yonko while teaming up? Of course not.

Same for Roger, he isn't unbeatable. Roger will be beaten if any of the two Yonkos team up, but he is individually a lot stronger than them.

Why would that be enough? If PK level really is a thing and Roger is on that level, then sinking his ship shouldn't be enough as long as he's not a fruit user.

Yeah, and I still disagree with prime Whitebeard being in a higher tier. Emperor/fleet admiral tier seems to be the highest, and Whitebeard, young or old, seems to have been the strongest.

Because fighting in water is a very limiting thing, it restricts movement speed and so on. We've seen that Zoro was restricted in his fight against that main villain in FI (forgot his name lmao). He just won because that dude was too much of a fodder relative to Zoro.
Once the ship sinks, Roger pirates will have to deal with countless attacks from all direction, while they are swimming.

Why?
Old Garp was a tier below his prime, and the dude is healthy!! Why wouldn't WB be a tier below his prime, when he is not only old but sick as well? Why isn't he a tier below, when basically everything in the Marineford tells us the dude is a shell of his former self?

Nothing like nothing in the story implies roger is that much stronger than the emperors to be in a tier invis own
Heck we saw on the journey to be PK he literally didn’t any of his yonkou counterparts at the time , he just had more information by having VOA and oden , he didn’t defeat WB shiki or linlin
Pk tier and fleet admiral just don’t exist as power levels

The EDD WAR wasn’t even an L for Shiki it was a draw with roger running away due to getting luck even

Why are you bringing up Shiki surrounding a single ship of like ~ 30 dudes, when Shiki had a fleet of like a 100 ship and 10000 dudes himself?
Shiki would probably lose to Rayleigh in pure 1v1, forget Roger.

Why should Roger and prime WB be in a different tier? Narrative reasons and logic.
- prime WB >> old WB (in meds), cause old age. Old WB (in meds) was the undisputed WSM/WSP
- old WB (in meds) >> old WB (Marineford), self evident by both feats and statements. Old WB in Marineford >= Akainu, the strongest admiral.
- Roger and WB both had Yonko level right hand men, in Rayleigh and Oden
- only two dudes to hit above 5 billion, yeah it's bounty, but this is portrayal. You could say Roger had the threat factor, but WB was amongst the most peaceful dudes who never bothered anyone unless provoked. He certainly didn't go around making trouble, usurp/destroy countries, or got involved with illegal stuff like Kaido and BM did. His bounty should be more from his strength, than it would be for Kaido or BM, and he is still considerably above them

 

[M3J]

Because fighting in water is a very limiting thing, it restricts movement speed and so on. We've seen that Zoro was restricted in his fight against that main villain in FI (forgot his name lmao). He just won because that dude was too much of a fodder relative to Zoro.
Once the ship sinks, Roger pirates will have to deal with countless attacks from all direction, while they are swimming.

Why?
Old Garp was a tier below his prime, and the dude is healthy!! Why wouldn't WB be a tier below his prime, when he is not only old but sick as well? Why isn't he a tier below, when basically everything in the Marineford tells us the dude is a shell of his former self?

Why can't Whitebeard and Garp be on the same "tier" as they were in their prime, but weaker? Emperor level but not as strong as they used to be?

Man, what are you even saying? Doesn't make sense at all.

Just because someone is a tier above others, doesn't make them unbeatable. They can be ganged upon and beaten, just like how Law and Kid defeated BM.
Are we gonna say Law/Kid are Yonko tier individually, just cause they beat a Yonko while teaming up? Of course not.

Same for Roger, he isn't unbeatable. Roger will be beaten if any of the two Yonkos team up, but he is individually a lot stronger than them.

That's not what's implied with the way that people hype Roger and Pirate King tier. Y'all make it sound like they're so powerful that they can't be beaten by anyone that's not on their tier. Did the same with the emperors and as we saw with Kaidou and Big Mom, that's not true. Being a tier above others means someone below the tier shouldn't be able to beat the person, usually even with help.

If he individually is a lot stronger, then why haven't he had decisive wins against Whitebeard? Why did he not fight Big Mom?

 

[grey matter]

Why can't Whitebeard and Garp be on the same "tier" as they were in their prime, but weaker? Emperor level but not as strong as they used to be?

Could be, I just don't think so based on what was shown to us.

I think old WB (in meds) can be argued to be on same tier but weaker, same for old Garp who is old but otherwise healthy.

But Marineford WB is 100% not in the same tier as prime WB.
- from having arguably the best conqueror's haki ever seen in the series along with Roger in his prime, to being top 2 conqueror's haki users alive (with Shanks) when he was in meds, to ZERO conqueror's haki in Marineford
- from having "always on" (advanced) observation haki in meds, to extremely nerfed observation haki.

EVEN IF old WB (in meds) isn't a tier below prime WB, but just weaker.
Old WB in Marineford is 100% a tier below prime WB.

That's not what's implied with the way that people hype Roger and Pirate King tier. Y'all make it sound like they're so powerful that they can't be beaten by anyone that's not on their tier. Did the same with the emperors and as we saw with Kaidou and Big Mom, that's not true. Being a tier above others means someone below the tier shouldn't be able to beat the person, usually even with help.

I can't speak for everyone. If you and I have a different understanding of what tiers mean, then that's what it is lol.
For me, two people one tier below someone, can pull off a win against that said person if they team up. Unless some heavy matchup shenanigans is going on.

If he individually is a lot stronger, then why haven't he had decisive wins against Whitebeard? Why did he not fight Big Mom?

Not talking about Prime WB when I say Roger is a lot stronger than Yonkos. I'm talking about the rest, as well as old WB.
Prime WB was his equal.

Yeah, he is a lot stronger than BM just by scaling to prime WB.

Why didn't he fight her? Cause he doesn't care for fighting her. Why fight her if you can just sneak in and steal her poneglyph?
This is like asking why didn't WB become the PK. Simply cause he didn't want to, didn't care for that. The story itself says he was the defacto king and strongest pirate, who could've ruled from the throne if he ever wished so

 

[LaGOAT]

@M3J it’s just a term we use a tier above yonko. Like @grey matter said it depends how people define their tiers but we know for a fact that WB and Roger were stronger than the yonkos with hype,portrayal and feats bro. I mean unless oda changes it later in the story it till stands and also has been consistent thoughtout the story

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

I keep asking what makes whitebeard and roger so much stronger than the yonkou that they get their own tier
Again by the classic yonkou,
Kaido - all 3 advanced haki , mastered DF fruit , highest durability in all series, insane physical
Prime linlin - mastered devil fruit , 2 advanced haki (could be 3) , insane physical strength
WB
Roger
Shanks - 2 advanced haki , probably 3 , can even negate future sight

What in the blue hell even implies Rayleigh could defeat shiki LOOOL , this isn’t showing he can’t but literally again by hype Shiki is placed in a tier above , he’s literally stated that along with LinLin WB and roger to be the old rulers of the old era ( essentially the yonkou of their time )

If kaido was so below WB , WB would have set out to defeat him if he’s so much stronger
Roger wouldn’t have avoided linlin
WHAT panels with the information implies the PK tier are so above the yonkou the so called PK
Again like fleet admiral becoming PK wasn’t necessarily based on strength they didn’t defeat anyone they again had information others weren’t privy too

 

[grey matter]

I keep asking what makes whitebeard and roger so much stronger than the yonkou that they get their own tier
Again by the classic yonkou,
Kaido - all 3 advanced haki , mastered DF fruit , highest durability in all series, insane physical
Prime linlin - mastered devil fruit , 2 advanced haki (could be 3) , insane physical strength
WB
Roger
Shanks - 2 advanced haki , probably 3 , can even negate future sight

What makes them stronger?
- The portrayals and narratives that we keep pointing out that that you keep ignoring, that is what. The narrative that old WB (in meds) was the unanimous WSP and WSM, king of the seas. The narrative that WB could've made the era his as soon as Roger dies, but chose not to. The portrayal of WB being only one of the two characters ever with 5 billion+ bounty, inspite of the fact that he is no where near as violent or criminal thug that BM and Kaido are.
- Basic logic and scaling of prime WB >>> old WB in Marineford who couldn't use conqueror's haki and had shit observation haki, yet extreme diff'd the strongest admiral.


There are different levels to haki. Just cause you have advanced haki doesn't mean they are all of equal quality.
FFS, Shanks just showed us a conqueror's haki feat never seen before in the series.

Might as well say 1010 Luffy, Zoro and Yamato are top tiers now lmao. Cause they have 2 of the three advanced haki (for Luffy's case 3).

What in the blue hell even implies Rayleigh could defeat shiki LOOOL , this isn’t showing he can’t but literally again by hype Shiki is placed in a tier above , he’s literally stated that along with LinLin WB and roger to be the old rulers of the old era ( essentially the yonkou of their time )

You ask what implies that? The following do:
- Rayleigh having portrayal >= Oden implies it, considering Oden could give Kaido extreme diff
- Rayleigh being portrayed as one of the two living legends in same sentence as WB, that Navy cannot afford to F with simultaneously
- Rayleigh's name being so infamous that Nami, Sanji etc knows it and freaks out. The didn't even know who BM or Kaido were. Only similar reaction was to mention of Monkey D Dragon
- Rayleigh matching Kizaru in combat, and portrayed capable of giving him an extreme diff. Inspite of 20+ years in retirement and being heavily out of shape (didn't touch a sword since retirement, heavy drinking and gambling)

But sure dude, keep pretending that BM and Shiki are equal to Roger lmao.

If kaido was so below WB , WB would have set out to defeat him if he’s so much stronger

The dude literally explains it in manga why he doesn't.
It's cause it's pointless, since Oden died. If Oden was alive, WB would've 100% invaded and put Kaido in his place.

You are seriously arguinign that WB is afriad of Kaido, when he barged into Marineford which is >>>>>>>>> Kaido + BP?

Man you keep repeating this, inspite of people correcting you on this over and over again. Why?

Roger wouldn’t have avoided linlin

Cause he didn't care about fighting her lmao.
Roger fought WB, fought Rocks, fought Garp. Don't tell me he's afraid of fighting BM.

Same reason why WB didn't make the era his own, he doesn't want to. The manga outright tells us he could've done it if he ever wanted to, multiple times.

WHAT panels with the information implies the PK tier are so above the yonkou the so called PK

- WB being stated he could've ruled the era if he ever wished to
- WB being called the king of the seas
- Old WB (in meds) is world's strongest pirate and WSM.
- Old WB (out of meds) extreme diff'd the strongest admiral
- Garp, BM etc putting WB on a pedestal over other Yonkos.

Again like fleet admiral becoming PK wasn’t necessarily based on strength they didn’t defeat anyone they again had information others weren’t privy too

Sure, becoming PK/FA doesn't need you to be stronger than Yonkos/admirals, they are just titles. Just happens they they are stronger.
Just like Yonkos don't necessitates insane individual stats, you just need a strong crew/fleet + territories. Just happens that they are incredibly strong.

The story just made them so, it is portrayal.
Oda wants the FA to be a special to regular admirals. Oda wants the PK materials to be special to Yonkos

Jinbe even basically says Yonko title means nothing to someone worthy of PK

 

[Fox666]

The didn't even know who BM or Kaido were.

That's a plot-hole. A big one.

It's the same with bounties. Smoker talked like Crocodile and Nico Robin would turn the world upside down because they have bounties of 80 or 70 million.


It's actually a common problem in fiction. Character act as the reader gateway into the world... but the author forgets the characters already know their world.

For example, in the Justice League movie the Flash asks Bruce Wayne who he is. That's like someone in real life not knowing who Elon Musk is.

 

[grey matter]

That's a plot-hole. A big one.

It's the same with bounties. Smoker talked like Crocodile and Nico Robin would turn the world upside down because they have bounties of 80 or 70 million.


It's actually a common problem in fiction. Character act as the reader gateway into the world... but the author forgets the characters already know their world.

For example, in the Justice League movie the Flash asks Bruce Wayne who he is. That's like someone in real life not knowing who Elon Musk is.

Nah, it was intentional. Because in the same chapter, they lost their shit at the mention of Monkey D Dragon

 

[LaGOAT]

Bruh Why are people pretending like WB and roger isn’t stronger than the Yonkos lol