One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

goldb

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M3J

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It's a good question whether BOA's petrification can be negated with haki. My guess would be that victims actually can't use haki to cancel the ability. The primary issue being that once petrified people are left unconscious.
I think it is possible, but very difficult due to how hot she is. They get too attracted/lustful and thus can't use haki or don't think to use haki. Wonder if Doberman (?) stabbing his hand was a way to keep calm and use his haki to resist the petrification.
 

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So I think Oda doesn’t show enough characters at their limits enough, or throws in so many caveats into his fights. When you try to rank or list the characters you start to find major contradictions.
So until the End of Series or just in general I always thought Tiers/Titles worked best.
Yep, I believe tiers tell more than just numbered rankings, hence me putting multiple tiers in my ranking.
I making multiple tiers even amongst top tier, is because we know some top tiers are decisively stronger (even if gap is small) than others. For example, I think Roger is decisively stronger than prime Ray, and prime Ray is pretty much confirmed to be decisively stronger than current BB.

There are Tiers/Titles I don’t think really exist or are necessary….Ex.YC1+ & PK Tier.

Prime Roger/WB/Garp are Narratively Equivalent. The differences in battle prowess is marginal..The PK title isn’t really a tier.
I will get onto justifying YC1+ later.

But PK tier is simply the highest level of "top tier". That doesn't mean they wash over other below them. You're right that it isn't a real tier, it is more of a "sub tier" indicative of the most special amongst top tier.
(On a similar note, I view commanders except YC1s also in same light. YC1s are "special" in some way even outside of their superior stats to regular commanders. While YC2,YC3 are more of sub tiers)

PK tier/top top tier (say Roger/prime-WB) for example can only high-extreme diff (closer to extreme than high) those on high top tier (say Kaido/Shanks/prime-Ray).



YC1+ Imo is simply Low Top Tier. For me its either you are above YC1 & can fight above that level..Or your not….So Kidd/Law/Zoro/Oden/Sabo/Ben Beckman(?) ..They can hurt and go a distance with the top tiers
Coming onto YC1+

The way I see it is, top tier is top tier.
These are characters who have achieved global recognition/portrayal of some sorts.

Even the lowest in that tier can put a good fight (at least a mid-high diff) to the strongest in that tier

For me, "low top tier" are characters like Fujitora, Greenull and the old trio.
These are still characters that can give a solid top tier a run for their money

Once you get some world's strongest title or special hype even amongst top tiers, then you are at minimum in "high top tier".

The ones I put in YC1+........like Law, Kid, Zoro, Yamato etc. I don't see them being on same level as the old trio or GB/Fuji

I like your list. There’s thing I disagree but understand such as Doflamingo/Kyoshiro/Ben Beckman..etc
Yeah, those placements are based on some assumptions and scaling.

Doflamingo's placement can really be anywhere depending on how much you think Doffy was weakened by GK

Kyoshiro's placement depends on the gap you consider between him and Shutenmaru. To be noted however was that prior to Shutenmaru knowing Kyoshiro's identity, hyped him up as a monster with the swords. Plus, he looked better than pre Enma Zoro, in the little engagement they had

Beckman's position was based on his general portrayal in manga, such as portrayal of sun/moon, special right hand man (alike Ray/Oden/Zoro), official materials portraying him as relative to Shanks etc. I understand if you want to wait for his feats tho
 

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I think it is possible, but very difficult due to how hot she is. They get too attracted/lustful and thus can't use haki or don't think to use haki. Wonder if Doberman (?) stabbing his hand was a way to keep calm and use his haki to resist the petrification.
Based on Law using Haki to block Doc Q ability, I think it takes a lot more Haki than Momonga would have to use it against Hancock's ability
 

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I think it is possible, but very difficult due to how hot she is. They get too attracted/lustful and thus can't use haki or don't think to use haki. Wonder if Doberman (?) stabbing his hand was a way to keep calm and use his haki to resist the petrification.
Using haki to negate devil fruit abilities has been used, as far as we know, by yonko to counter law and by law to counter doc q. Law's power is presumably in the ballpark of a YC1 or higher.... Odds are that the stronger vice admirals don't have the sheer haki required to cancel an ability. It's unclear if the power required to cancel an ability depends on the ability user. As in, if the strength of the ability user affects how much power is required to cancel ability. In doberman's case I don't think haki played a part. I still think the primary issue with her specific ability is targets not being conscious once afflicted.
 

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At this point it would be believable that a strong haki user just wouldn't be effected by Boa's basic DF power to turn people into stone. Oda does it randomly so far but haki has already been shown to both (1) prevent a DF power from effecting a user (Law basic ability to move people in his room couldn't move BM or Kaido due to haki) and (2) remove effects of a DF power once its effected your body (Doc Q basic infection ability was removed by Law using haki).

It would be hard to believe Oda would give Boa the ability to just petrify people like Kaido, Shanks, Akainu etc. That would just be too overpowered and open up questions like why didn't WG have her do that to the entire WB pirates. To me Blackbeard being worried about her powers speaks as much about his lack of confidence in his own haki abilities as it does about her being a formidable fighter
 

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Yeah once again reminder that Yamato really was the 2nd or 3rd strongest in the alliance
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Bounties IMO give some idea of proportion but only within same crews. Across crews there's hardly anything to make sense of. Does that difference apply to pre time skip supernova? This is more or less how I see the powerscaling here.

Post ennies lobby luffY
- Would lose to moria solo (we saw that moria's shadow was basically a match for luffy)
- would lose to a pacifista. It's not even close. Not immediately of course but the one at sambaody ate a diable jambe, azura and gear 3 punch before falling.
- Get foderized by any vice admiral at marineford.

- Pre time skip moria IMO has a solid chance against a lone pacifista. Just not against an army of them.
- Marineford's vice admirals foderize the original pacifista
- Some new world people that would defeat first gen pacifista with ease, if not foderize them: Obviously post time skip zoro and sanji from when the strawhats reunited. Bellamy from dressrosa. Pretty much most of doflamigo's executives. Kinemon, kanjuro.
- Pedro, pekoms, tamago can definitely foderize pacifista in an instant.

With that context:
-Doflamingo foderized full powered post time skip sanji
- Doflamingo had a huge edge over dressrosa law. Doflamingo had a pretty big edge over gear 2/3 dressrosa luffy. Dressrosa gear 4 luffy barely had an edge on doflamingo. Maybe not even that considering all the shenanigans that were required to take out doflamingo.
- Doflamingo loses to anyone of the original yonko's YC3. As in, vista, cracker, jack. With varying degrees of difficulty but the YC in question always walks.
- WB's commanders seem to be ahead of the curve considering we saw marco and jozu repelled admirals and vista held his ground against mihawk.
- Azura appeared to be at least an interesting fight to jack. The implication would appear to be that denjiro and kawamatsu along with azura stood out among the scabbards and maybe were in the ballpark. Which suggests at least 3 scabbards being on the ballpark of doflamingo.
- Perospero I have at about a tie with doflamingo.
- Oven and daifuku are probably just somewhat weaker than doflamingo. Though not people doflamingo can dismiss.
- Pedro defeated tamago but didn't last against perospero.

- Immediately post dressrosa luffy has nothing over cracker. Maybe it's a skillset thing to some extent but ultimately it's not an opponent luffy could solo at that point.
- Immediate post dressrosa luffy is nothing to katakuri. At this point it was sheer convenience that luffy overcame a pretty huge breach in overall strength.
- Luffy at the time his fight with katakuri ended probably has somewhat of an edge over katakuri. Since luffy accumulated a crapton of damage through the fight but still came out on top somehow.

- Pre udon luffy in any circumstance gets one shot by base kaido. Kaido did that in spite of the fact that luffy at that point was at least as strong as katakuri, an honest to god YC1 (even if probably the weakest of the known ones at the time).

- It's extremely likely that kaido in his base form can one shot katakuri and non defense mode king by bonking them with sheer speed. The idea of katakuri's future sight holding out against kaido who also has the skill is beyond laughable. Big mom can probably match this if she has at least one homey at hand. Kaido did bonk G4 with his primary weapon after all. I would maintain that the big mom that confronted jinbe was far too out of her mind and perhaps already weakened from her hunger to actually show her full power.

- The surviving scabbards didn't last against aramaki and this while denjiro and kawamatsu were fighting. Yamato gave aramaki some pause at least.


So the power scaling would sort of look like....

Kaido >>>>aramaki>>>>marco>>>>>>>>>pre udon luffy>katakuri>>>>>>>jack>azura>cracker >>>>>doflamingo> G4 dressrosa luffy>perospero>>>>>oven-daifuku>>>>>>>>>>pedro>tamago>dressrosa sanji>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bellamy>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thriller bark gecho moria>> first gen pacifista>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pre time skip luffy.

So... the arrows roughly reference the strength difference as I see it. It's not an exact number mind you. If there's only one I see them as being about the same. If there's a a lot of them I think the difference is enough to one shot or at least win comfortably.
This is an anime only opinion
Gear 4. Luffy was extremely stronger and faster than doffy , completely overwhelmed and overpowered him it wasn’t close. Time limit was the problem but it wasn’t close
 

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At this point it would be believable that a strong haki user just wouldn't be effected by Boa's basic DF power to turn people into stone. Oda does it randomly so far but haki has already been shown to both (1) prevent a DF power from effecting a user (Law basic ability to move people in his room couldn't move BM or Kaido due to haki) and (2) remove effects of a DF power once its effected your body (Doc Q basic infection ability was removed by Law using haki).

It would be hard to believe Oda would give Boa the ability to just petrify people like Kaido, Shanks, Akainu etc. That would just be too overpowered and open up questions like why didn't WG have her do that to the entire WB pirates. To me Blackbeard being worried about her powers speaks as much about his lack of confidence in his own haki abilities as it does about her being a formidable fighter
Idk, Blackbeard being worried about being petrified says otherwise. WG couldn't "have" Boa do anything, she very clearly did whatever the hell she wanted before, during, and after the war. I think it's going to be a case by case basis.

I think it'd be pretty lame if every "instant win condition" DF ability can be cancelled by just flexing your haki hard enough, but given the demonstration with Law and Doc Q it looks like that's the direction we're going. Really cheapens the novelty of DF interactions if one side can get out of a jam by having a bigger power level.
 

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Based on Law using Haki to block Doc Q ability, I think it takes a lot more Haki than Momonga would have to use it against Hancock's ability
Using haki to negate devil fruit abilities has been used, as far as we know, by yonko to counter law and by law to counter doc q. Law's power is presumably in the ballpark of a YC1 or higher.... Odds are that the stronger vice admirals don't have the sheer haki required to cancel an ability. It's unclear if the power required to cancel an ability depends on the ability user. As in, if the strength of the ability user affects how much power is required to cancel ability. In doberman's case I don't think haki played a part. I still think the primary issue with her specific ability is targets not being conscious once afflicted.


But Law's power and Hancock's power are different. Hancock's power requires certain thoughts for it to work, does it not? While Law doesn't need thoughts, just stamina and territory. So while I don't think Doberman used haki at all, I was wondering if that's still possible if the target is somehow able to be calm enough to use haki to resist petrification.
 

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But Law's power and Hancock's power are different. Hancock's power requires certain thoughts for it to work, does it not? While Law doesn't need thoughts, just stamina and territory. So while I don't think Doberman used haki at all, I was wondering if that's still possible if the target is somehow able to be calm enough to use haki to resist petrification.
But like I said, I don't think Momonga (and not Doberman) could have enough Haki to block the ability
 

M3J

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Then let's assume the target was Aokiji or Shanks, both thirsty. Would their haki be enough to avoid petrification? Would they be able to concentrate or would it be automatic? etcetc
 

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Yeah once again reminder that Yamato really was the 2nd or 3rd strongest in the alliance
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



This is an anime only opinion
Gear 4. Luffy was extremely stronger and faster than doffy , completely overwhelmed and overpowered him it wasn’t close. Time limit was the problem but it wasn’t close
The fight simply didn't end with luffy activating gear 4. After luffy activated gear 4 doflamingo kept the fight at mid range and ultimately held his ground. The anime is irrelevant for the most part.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

But Law's power and Hancock's power are different. Hancock's power requires certain thoughts for it to work, does it not? While Law doesn't need thoughts, just stamina and territory. So while I don't think Doberman used haki at all, I was wondering if that's still possible if the target is somehow able to be calm enough to use haki to resist petrification.
They are different but it doesn't seem like that matters too much when it comes to resisting devil fruit abilities. We have seen big mom and presumably kaido using haki to resist being teleported around by law and law using haki to cancel out the disease fruit. I suppose if hancock's fruit's effectiveness varies depending on how aroused the target is then there might be wiggle room for what you mention but so far it appears that the effects are more binary. As in, you either are transformed or not. Another issue to consider is perhaps haki volume. Law clearly exerted a huge effort to cancel his affliction. But we saw no such effort from big mom or kaido. Suggesting that for them cancelling an ability is something they do casually and perhaps constantly. Without sufficient haki volume cancelling an ability repeatedly could perhaps be too taxing.
 
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I think it'd be pretty lame if every "instant win condition" DF ability can be cancelled by just flexing your haki hard enough, but given the demonstration with Law and Doc Q it looks like that's the direction we're going. Really cheapens the novelty of DF interactions if one side can get out of a jam by having a bigger power level.
I for one am glad that "one shot hax" have their proper counters.
These abilities shouldn't exist to begin with IMO, one shot haxes are weak/lazy writing IMHO.

At least against Boa, there is another counter in the form of injuring yourself and hence counter.
But imagine Sugar's DF in the hands of someone competent. Any weakness if any to it is unknown, hence would solo the verse if haki wasn't a counter.
 

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The issue there I would argue is that oda has not exactly handled either scenario particularly well. We are at a point where almost every non devil fruit shenanigan is some manner of haki application (swordsmanship is entirely haki shenanigans, cursed swords are also haki related, haki cancels devil fruits, conquerors haki can apparently somehow counter observation haki..) and at the same time there's at least several abilities around that would shatter the world if wielded by someone of the yonko executive class or higher. You kinda need a reason for doflamingo to not have snuck into majiroa with sugar and have her use her ability on every admiral and celestial dragon. At some point this whole thing is just tiring.
 

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Idk, Blackbeard being worried about being petrified says otherwise. WG couldn't "have" Boa do anything, she very clearly did whatever the hell she wanted before, during, and after the war. I think it's going to be a case by case basis.

I think it'd be pretty lame if every "instant win condition" DF ability can be cancelled by just flexing your haki hard enough, but given the demonstration with Law and Doc Q it looks like that's the direction we're going. Really cheapens the novelty of DF interactions if one side can get out of a jam by having a bigger power level.
I agree that Hancock and her power are formidable and against most opponents is a one hit KO. However, I also think BB is one of the more cowardly fighters that is very opposed to risk. Him being fearful speaks a lot about BB as a character then it does about Hancock and her power. Regardless of her threat level I don't think someone like Kaido, Shanks, or Luffy would actually show fear of Hancock or her powers.

Personally I think having any abilities in OP that are one hit KO by definition regardless of the strength of the opponent would be more terrible than strong haki users being able to situationally counter/negate DF powers using haki. Otherwise the one hit KO abilities should have a lot of restrictions that make it hard to execute so it is balanced.
 

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I agree that Hancock and her power are formidable and against most opponents is a one hit KO. However, I also think BB is one of the more cowardly fighters that is very opposed to risk. Him being fearful speaks a lot about BB as a character then it does about Hancock and her power. Regardless of her threat level I don't think someone like Kaido, Shanks, or Luffy would actually show fear of Hancock or her powers.

Personally I think having any abilities in OP that are one hit KO by definition regardless of the strength of the opponent would be more terrible than strong haki users being able to situationally counter/negate DF powers using haki. Otherwise the one hit KO abilities should have a lot of restrictions that make it hard to execute so it is balanced.
BB opposed to risk? We are talking about the guy who stormed impel down, then once having completed his goal at ID immediately stormed marineford, then confronted WB, then sengoku. Then torpedoed to the new world, won the payback war, took control of WB's territory. And with the changing tides he immediately mobilized his forces against hancock and then went on to fight law. BB isn't risk averse, nothing in the manga actually evidences that. BB looks like an idiot but he actually takes calculated risks.

As for shanks or kaido not showing fear of hancock's power... what does that mean? That they don't actually fear it? Or that they just don't show their fear? Luffy might not because he is asexual enough to not have context of how dangerous the ability is. But shanks and kaido presumably are not asexual morons. They should be wary of her ability just as anyone else, if not for themselves for their crews. That's just common sense.
 
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BB opposed to risk? We are talking about the guy who stormed impel down, then once having completed his goal at ID immediately stormed marineford, then confronted WB, then sengoku. Then torpedoed to the new world, won the payback war, took control of WB's territory. And with the changing tides he immediately mobilized his forces against hancock and then went on to fight law. BB isn't risk averse, nothing in the manga actually evidences that. BB looks like an idiot but he actually takes calculated risks.

As for shanks or kaido not showing fear of hancock's power... what does that mean? That they don't actually fear it? Or that they just don't show their fear? Luffy might not because he is asexual enough to not have context of how dangerous the ability is. But shanks and kaido presumably are not asexual morons. They should be wary of her ability just as anyone else, if not for themselves for their crews. That's just common sense.
Yes I think compared to a lot of other characters that BB is opposed to risk. He only gets into fights he is confident he can win. And even in those cases, when the fight is not going in his favor he is willing to use cowardly moves to try to win. In everything you described it is to me proof he is more risk averse. He hid under the WB banner for decades, only took on WB when he believed him nearly dead, ran away from Akainu who is an actual threat and the won the Payback war against remenants of a Yonko crew with no one to truly challenge him. Not once have we seen BB go into a fight that he is unlikely to win. There is a difference between saying he is risk averse and saying he takes no risks at all.

My point with Luffy, Kaido, or Shanks is that they cower to no one. They go into fights believing in themselves and their power. At the core it's the fact BB is cowardly in the face of true life threats where as the other Yonko (not counting Buggy) more revel in the danger.
 

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Yes I think compared to a lot of other characters that BB is opposed to risk. He only gets into fights he is confident he can win. And even in those cases, when the fight is not going in his favor he is willing to use cowardly moves to try to win. In everything you described it is to me proof he is more risk averse. He hid under the WB banner for decades, only took on WB when he believed him nearly dead, ran away from Akainu who is an actual threat and the won the Payback war against remenants of a Yonko crew with no one to truly challenge him. Not once have we seen BB go into a fight that he is unlikely to win. There is a difference between saying he is risk averse and saying he takes no risks at all.

My point with Luffy, Kaido, or Shanks is that they cower to no one. They go into fights believing in themselves and their power. At the core it's the fact BB is cowardly in the face of true life threats where as the other Yonko (not counting Buggy) more revel in the danger.
But... none of that is out of the ordinary for how OP frames combat. The strawhats also get into fights they think they can win. They take risks but aren't outright suicidal. The strawhats are generally more than willing and able to fight dirty if they can. Most pirates don't give two flying shits about honor, including the good ones. And saying BB hid under WB's banner is a mischaracterization. What exactly was he hiding from? There's zero evidence he was hiding. He was simply a nameless crewmember minding his own business, until he wasn't.

As for those people cowering to no one:

1.- Luffy has run away from enemies plenty of times for a variety of reasons.
2.- Kaido backed of from going to the marineford war when shanks intercepted him.
3.- As for shanks... we haven't seen that much of him. Most of his storyarc so far is him trying to avoid or deescalate fights. Like when that one asshole smashed shanks face with a bottle or when he tried to get ace to back off from fighting BB.

BB being particularly cowardly doesn't exactly fit. You are simply framing BB in a manner convenient to your point but that's simply not how he has been portrayed. Why even frame the payback war like that? BB simply won a battle against marco's forces. And we know BB aggresively took over WB's territory during the timeskip. BB has simply made the call to fight or not fight when its convenient to him, framing that as cowardly is absurd.
 
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Im glad that Haki can counter one shot DF abilities. That gives the DF user too much power in their hands. I always believed that Hancock's ability could not overpower characters like Kaido, Shanks, WB.
So personally I dont place her that high. Her Haki skills seem to be on par if not weaker than Doffy's, her combat skill doesnt seem to be that great besides being able to one kick a Pacifista, but even immediately Post time skip Sanji could. I think Boa is overestimated.

BB was just a coward who only goes after people he knows he can most likely win. He is smart but dumb.
 

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But... none of that is out of the ordinary for how OP frames combat. The strawhats also get into fights they think they can win. They take risks but aren't outright suicidal. The strawhats are generally more than willing and able to fight dirty if they can. Most pirates don't give two flying shits about honor, including the good ones. And saying BB hid under WB's banner is a mischaracterization. What exactly was he hiding from? There's zero evidence he was hiding. He was simply a nameless crewmember minding his own business, until he wasn't.

As for those people cowering to no one:

1.- Luffy has run away from enemies plenty of times for a variety of reasons.
2.- Kaido backed of from going to the marineford war when shanks intercepted him.
3.- As for shanks... we haven't seen that much of him. Most of his storyarc so far is him trying to avoid or deescalate fights. Like when that one asshole smashed shanks face with a bottle or when he tried to get ace to back off from fighting BB.

BB being particularly cowardly doesn't exactly fit. You are simply framing BB in a manner convenient to your point but that's simply not how he has been portrayed. Why even frame the payback war like that? BB simply won a battle against marco's forces. And we know BB aggresively took over WB's territory during the timeskip. BB has simply made the call to fight or not fight when its convenient to him, framing that as cowardly is absurd.
You're right that I do have bias here on my views about Blackbeard. Personally I think BB is a great villain and foil to Luffy. I may potentially be reading too much into BBs character being a foil to Luffy (or Luffy like characters) but I do think there are some clear signs of what makes BB more "cowardly" than at least Luffy and his ilk.

Not sure you'd agree but here are the examples of things that make BB distinctly more cowardly to me (in comparison to Luffy/Luffy like characters not to OP pirates in general):
  • BB spent decades as a member of the WB pirates despite the entire time knowing he wanted to PK throne for himself. I just can't imagine people like Luffy, Ace, Roger, Shanks etc actively choosing to stay under someone if they were planning to aim for PK themselves. To me this seems like BB strategy assumed he is better off under WB than going it alone which to me is a sign of not believing in oneself enough.
  • BB chose only to go after WB once he was a walking corpse. BB didn't have the balls to challenge/take on WB when he was strong. I just can't imagine Luffy, Ace, etc being happy taking victory under such circumstances. Hell even Kaido who is villainous gets so upset at winning fights unfairly. I haven't seen BB once lament how he ended up taking out WB.
  • BB asked his crew to help finish WB off after BB himself lost in the 1v1 against corpse beard. Other Yonko so far have displayed too much confidence/ego and hated when anyone in their crew interfered in their 1v1 fights. BB so far is the exception.
I won't list them out in detail but on the reverse side of things there are things characters like Luffy & co have done that I can never imagine BB doing e.g. Katakuri stabbing himself to even out the fight, Luffy yelling out his attacks against Fujitora out of respect, etc.
 

Fallou

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英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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Stussy>Cp0
Stussy=Luffy
Weevil<Ryokogyu
Ryokogyu> prime WB
Admirals>Yonko
And that’s about it
 
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