One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Nie Li]

Enma's power was literally explained in the chapter Zoro got it. It sucks out large amounts of haki from the user, that's really it. This has been consistent thoughout the arc, the sword kept taking more haki than Zoro intended, because Enma by it's personality/nature is a greedy sword that is hungry for the haki that prime Oden supplied it (1033).

The worst part about this point is that it can't even be argued that Oda retconned it because it got the same literal explanation (with a little more insight) as when originally introduced right when he started using aCoC with it against King.

And it was even consistent with how every cursed sword is harder to tame than a normal sword, even if said "normal sword" is of a good grade. Like when Zoro tested Yubashiri and Sandai Kitetsu in Whiskey Peak. We got new lore explanations to justify that being a thing.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 25, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 25, 2023 ---

Symbolic/poetic narrative?

Zoro himself hears it and the sword even makes a sound. You can't be serious here

No I will not claim Oden every time Zoro uses ACoC as it seems to me that Zoro fully mastered Enma and made it his own.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 25, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 25, 2023 ---

Explain it activating upon hearing Oden's favorite song played by Hoyori if all it does is pull haki. Because Zoro was dead to right before that moment

I gave my explanation. Explain it activating every time before that.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I gave my explanation. Explain it activating every time before that.

Zoro actively tries to use it every other time except this time. Zoro did not activate it this time, it did it all on its own. Zoro was defeated.

 

[Nie Li]

Zoro actively tries to use it every other time except this time. Zoro did not activate it, it did it all on its own. Zoro was defeated.

I'm failing to see your real point here.

You're using a scene in which Zoro talks about how Enma is devouring his (Zoro's) haki to that high output. Not creating new haki, not unleashing some Oden haki it secretly had in the blade, but absorbing Zoro to do what it's doing.

It activates as a shamisen sound? At most, you could be on to something regarding the blade having a bit of Oden's will to "activate" at that point, but what does that have to do with haki or power levels when everything in that very scene says otherwise?

Because, I repeat: we, you, were discussing power levels and how could Zoro cut Kaido pre-Asura. How does this scene help that point?

 

[Pirate Queen]

I'm failing to see your real point here.

You're using a scene in which Zoro talks about how Enma is devouring his (Zoro's) haki to that high output. Not creating new haki, not unleashing some Oden haki it secretly had in the blade, but absorbing Zoro to do what it's doing.

It activates as a shamisen sound? At most, you could be on to something regarding the blade having a bit of Oden's will to "activate" at that point, but what does that have to do with haki or power levels when everything in that very scene says otherwise?

Because, I repeat: we, you, were discussing power levels and how could Zoro cut Kaido pre-Asura. How does this scene help that point?

But Zoro having advanced armament in rooftop isn't really debatable. There is no other explanation to Zoro's attacks hurting Kaido, BM asking Kaido to dodge, etc.

This is what started the discussion for me. "No other explanation" for Zoro's rooftop feats other than Zoro having Advanced CoA.

My explanation was that Kaido and Big Mom acknowledged Enma possessing Oden's haki within the blade.

Real quick though, I needed to ask. Do you thing Zoro could have stopped Hakai if he stuck with Shusui instead of switching it out with Enma?

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 25, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 25, 2023 ---

Damn I got to go back to work.

Talk to you guys in a few hours

 

[HereNThere]

What makes you think it's haki proof?

Since WCI, we've been having instances of confirmed CoO users being unable to track invisible individuals. It could just be the wacky, inconsistent nature of Oda and CoO, but I feel it's supposed to be significant.

Going into the final arc, we have two characters who are very likely going to be significantly strong and have invisibility in their repertoire, Sanji and Shiryu. Sanji's invisibility comes with his speed, but the two times Oda has mentioned Sanji's upgrades in SBS or interviews, he has highlighted that Sanji can turn invisible through the speed, rather than just mentioning the speed alone. As for Shiryu, he's pretty guaranteed to be either Zoro's pre-final fight or final fight, and he has the invisibility fruit. I can't imagine it'll be overcome with basic CoO. It may not be completely haki-proof, but, at the moment Oda seems to be making it difficult to track for whatever reason.

 

[Rein Avara]

How else can you block something that massive? Mind you, it isn't some solid attack, but a giant shockwave.
Remember the admirals blocking WB's earthquake wave. Can they simply use armament/hardening only on their arm and expect it to be blocked all together? No. To block high AOE non-solid attacks, you need a barrier.

People have been blocking airs slashes since pre-timeskip and these were non-haki users, so blocking hakai in the same way doesn't seem like much of a reach, we saw luffy using barrier throughout his solo fight with kaido, we did not see the same for Zoro.
And I'm not trying to take away from Zoro in any capacity, sure maybe enma was forcing his haki out in such a way that it allowed him to use acoa without actually doing the same training as Luffy.

I'm not gonna get into the enma discussion because it's an endless topic, but hopefully we can all agree on the fact that zoro would not have been capable of the feats he displayed on the rooftop without enma.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I'm not gonna get into the enma discussion because it's an endless topic, but hopefully we can all agree on the fact that zoro would not have been capable of the feats he displayed on the rooftop without enma.

This is certainly the basis for my side of the discussion. Where I am flexible at is just "To what degree"

 

[Fox666]

How else can you block something that massive? Mind you, it isn't some solid attack, but a giant shockwave.
Remember the admirals blocking WB's earthquake wave. Can they simply use armament/hardening only on their arm and expect it to be blocked all together? No. To block high AOE non-solid attacks, you need a barrier.


There are levels to even advanced armament haki. Level 1: haki flow/barrier. Level 2: internal destruction. Zoro was probably shocked at the internal destruction aspect of it.
What is however not debatable is that you cannot hurt Kaido with physical attacks, unless you have advanced armament/conqueror's haki. That was the entire point of Luffy's training in Udon. Rooftop Zoro clearly didn't have advanced conqueror's, otherwise Kaido would've mentioned it. So it should've been advanced armament haki.


You maybe right. The barrier could be just me trying to make sense of it, maybe that wasn't the intention from Oda. But Zoro having advanced armament in rooftop isn't really debatable. There is no other explanation to Zoro's attacks hurting Kaido, BM asking Kaido to dodge, etc.

Whatcha you talking about

From what is said in the manga, Whitebeard's attack is made of vibration. But from the appearance, it's cracking the dimensional space

Basically you need Haki to stop Devil Fruit magic

Not the same as air slashes, or shockwaves, or whatever these are. We have seen character stopping these pre-timeskip

 

[grey matter]

People have been blocking airs slashes since pre-timeskip and these were non-haki users, so blocking hakai in the same way doesn't seem like much of a reach, we saw luffy using barrier throughout his solo fight with kaido, we did not see the same for Zoro.
And I'm not trying to take away from Zoro in any capacity, sure maybe enma was forcing his haki out in such a way that it allowed him to use acoa without actually doing the same training as Luffy.

I'm not gonna get into the enma discussion because it's an endless topic, but hopefully we can all agree on the fact that zoro would not have been capable of the feats he displayed on the rooftop without enma.

Whatcha you talking about

From what is said in the manga, Whitebeard's attack is made of vibration. But from the appearance, it's cracking the dimensional space

Basically you need Haki to stop Devil Fruit magic

Not the same as air slashes, or shockwaves, or whatever these are. We have seen character stopping these pre-timeskip

Yeah, that probably was a reach.

I just assumed it was, since we didn't see anything as big as hakai get blocked. the size of that is was bigger than Zoro's own.
It probably was advanced armament, but there is no proof

I don't see a reason why vibration vs shockwave is that different tho, at least conceptually. But anime logic I guess.

 

[Darklord#10]

So where does law stand in the current power ranking? After greenbull vs kaido's subordinates I kind of dropped one piece to wait for more chapters. So where do you guys think law ranks

 

[grey matter]

So where does law stand in the current power ranking? After greenbull vs kaido's subordinates I kind of dropped one piece to wait for more chapters. So where do you guys think law ranks

I had put Law/Kid/Zoro/Yamato all around roughly the same level until the last chapter. Now I don't know lol.

I guess I'll still maintain the same rough ranking instead of hopping on Kid downplay bandwagon lol.

Anyway, Law's position in comparison to what?

Law IMO is very matchup dependent, moreso than other characters.
For example, I would generally rate Katakuri much below Law, but dude will run circles around Law, because Law relies on teleport + attack, counter attack etc. All these seen through FS.

Law excels best against big tanks who rely a lot on durability. Like BM for example.
He struggles the most against characters with good CQC and observation haki

Haki seems like a non factor, since Law's awakening is seemingly bypassing haki, as we saw with BM

 

[Darklord#10]

I had put Law/Kid/Zoro/Yamato all around roughly the same level

Yeah I also put them at the same level after the events of wano. Surprisingly I also did consider Yamato to be on the same level with them

 

[I Am Atomic]

Since WCI, we've been having instances of confirmed CoO users being unable to track invisible individuals. It could just be the wacky, inconsistent nature of Oda and CoO, but I feel it's supposed to be significant.

Going into the final arc, we have two characters who are very likely going to be significantly strong and have invisibility in their repertoire, Sanji and Shiryu. Sanji's invisibility comes with his speed, but the two times Oda has mentioned Sanji's upgrades in SBS or interviews, he has highlighted that Sanji can turn invisible through the speed, rather than just mentioning the speed alone. As for Shiryu, he's pretty guaranteed to be either Zoro's pre-final fight or final fight, and he has the invisibility fruit. I can't imagine it'll be overcome with basic CoO. It may not be completely haki-proof, but, at the moment Oda seems to be making it difficult to track for whatever reason.

Adding on

Sanji, arguably one of the best CoO user couldn't sense Queen when he went invisible. Sanji only found Queen's position due to the floor boards squeaking.

 

[Darklord#10]

Law excels best against big tanks who rely a lot on durability. Like BM for example.

Ah I see. That makes sense

 

[Rein Avara]

I don't see a reason why vibration vs shockwave is that different tho, at least conceptually. But anime logic I guess.

Those were my thoughts too anime logic

 

[M3J]

Sanji, arguably one of the best CoO user couldn't sense Queen when he went invisible. Sanji only found Queen's position due to the floor boards squeaking.

This doesn't make sense to me. How did Queen avoid being detected? or am I misunderstanding how CoO works?

 

[HereNThere]

Sanji, arguably one of the best CoO user couldn't sense Queen when he went invisible. Sanji only found Queen's position due to the floor boards squeaking.

Yeah, I used to waffle back and forth on whether or not Sanji sensed him (he specifically knew to aim for Queen's neck (Collier) when he initially attacked him), but I think it's likely Oda was just using the rule of cool.

This doesn't make sense to me. How did Queen avoid being detected? or am I misunderstanding how CoO works?

This is pretty much why I brought the topic up. Given what we know about CoO, invisibility shouldn't be an issue for anyone who has it. However, Oda may be implying the opposite. Sanji apparently couldn't sense Nichiji or Queen, King and Queen couldn't sense Sanji when he saved Momo using the Raid Suit or when he was going full speed during the latter's fight with him, Shiryu's surely going to be running rampant, and I wouldn't be surprised if some other forms of invisible ability came into play through tech. Admittedly, it's still a vague possibility and Sanji and Queen could be a strange one off that needs clarification (anime's our only bet unless an SBS questions gets asked in the future), but as of right now, it seems invisibility is going to be a threatening ability in the end game.

 

[M3J]

Maybe Sanji's suit masks intentions or w/e CoO needs to detect/predict?

 

[albertwv]

Yup Oda doesn't know how to deal with Invisibility and CoO just yet, so It will remain a mystery. Reality, Proficient CoO users like Sanji, King, Queen (I think), should be able to sense invisible users.
Oda failed Sanji by not giving Sanji Future Sight in Wano, he deserves it, since Luffy gained all 3 Advanced Haki and Zolo gained 2 Advanced Haki.

I don't think Zolo would have gotten as strong as he was without Enma, thus not being able to block HAKAI. Enma helped him draw out more of his haki and control it to a certain degree.
Although I don't agree with how quickly he learned ACoC, Oda should have left it at ACoA and plain CoC.

Law, Kid, Yamato, Zolo. I place Yamato > Law/Zolo > Kid. We'll see how Law handles BB, Big Mom was a big easy target for him.

Shanks one-shotted Kid, he took him seriously but still. He saw how much damage Kid's laser gun would cause his dear weak subordinates, so that's why he was so serious in stopping Kid quickly. My man jumped from land to Kid's ship in the fastest manner we've seen cover a considerable distance.
The only thing I'm bummed out about is that we didn't get to see the rest of Shanks crew in action, or those big names Killer was mentioning. We just saw the weaklings.

 

[grey matter]

@I Am Atomic @albertwv @M3J @HereNThere
Funny thing about observation haki is that Rayleigh SPECIFICALLY trained Luffy by tying his eyes to render him blind fold. So that he can learn to sense the opponent and fight.

Which was why I used to think long back that invisibility was basically useless post haki implementation.

But I guess Oda simply is gonna pretend like that never happened lol