One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

@I Am Atomic @albertwv @M3J @HereNThere
Funny thing about observation haki is that Rayleigh SPECIFICALLY trained Luffy by tying his eyes to render him blind fold. So that he can learn to sense the opponent and fight.

Which was why I used to think long back that invisibility was basically useless post haki implementation.

But I guess Oda simply is gonna pretend like that never happened lol

There is also Fujitora is able to see by using COO haki. In fact Oda drew what was in his minds eye and he could literally see energy outlines in the shape of the people. We also saw that Usopp when he first got COO was able to see Sugar as energy too so Oda's very own portrayal of COO makes it seem like invisibility should be useless fruit against haki users.

 

[Fox666]

So where does law stand in the current power ranking? After greenbull vs kaido's subordinates I kind of dropped one piece to wait for more chapters. So where do you guys think law ranks

I have Law and Kid around half the power of a Yonko

It's enough for Shanks to tell his commanders he should handle Kid himself, but they still don't stand a chance against a Yonko 1-on-1

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

I had put Law/Kid/Zoro/Yamato all around roughly the same level until the last chapter. Now I don't know lol.

I guess I'll still maintain the same rough ranking instead of hopping on Kid downplay bandwagon lol.

Anyway, Law's position in comparison to what?

Law IMO is very matchup dependent, moreso than other characters.
For example, I would generally rate Katakuri much below Law, but dude will run circles around Law, because Law relies on teleport + attack, counter attack etc. All these seen through FS.

Law excels best against big tanks who rely a lot on durability. Like BM for example.
He struggles the most against characters with good CQC and observation haki

Haki seems like a non factor, since Law's awakening is seemingly bypassing haki, as we saw with BM

Law has never fought a coo master tho
We’ve only seen him fight tanks post doffy and he’s much stronger than he was then.

 

[albertwv]

The thing is, I still see Law and Kid having trouble with YC1's. I don't see how Kid or Law can counter Katakuri's FS and speed or King's durability. Law could possibly defeat King via K-Room like he did BM, but I still see Kata being faster than Law.
Kid on the other hand I don't see him being faster than Kata or strong enough to harm King, who possibly has a higher defense than BM or Kaido.

The problem with many OP power scalers is "Narrative/ End of Story". People use EOS and Narrative as a way to scale characters that don't have feats to back up those claims.
Example:
- Kid was/is seen as Luffy's rival, the WB to Roger, therefore Kid MUST be as strong or close to Luffy. This is "narrative". Same goes for Law, though Law does have better feats and closer to Luffy.
- Killer is seen as Zolo's counterpart, not rival, but peer due to Kid being "rival" to Luffy and Zolo is Luffy's 2nd in command thus Killer must be close to Zolo. His feats so far has been able to defeat Hawkins a Yonko Executive. Not close to Zolo at all.
- Blackbeard is seen as EoS villain, the final villain, thus he must be strong. I still view BB as weak compared to Kaido, but I believe BB will become stronger..
- Coby is seen as Luffy's Garp and because his dream to be an Admiral, therefore he must be strong due to narrative and EOS, but his feats place him below or at Vice Admiral.
- Mihawk, ooooh, his on-manga feats put him below a Yonko. Nothing shown so far can place him higher than a YC1. His best feat was clashing with Vista, a YC2. Jozu, a YC2 was able to block a powerful slash that was meant for WB. Due to Mihawk being Zolo's end goal to become WSS, people believe Mihawk will be EoS villain for Zolo and MUST be stronger than what he actually seems at the moment. Another thing is the title WSS, Mihawk rides on Shanks' feats, without doing anything close as amazing as Shanks, but because his title trumps Shanks, then Mihawk is automatically stronger than him, even though his feats say otherwise. Take away his title and he has nothing over Shanks. Mihawk fans ride on that title and nothing else.
And finally,
- Akainu, he is Admiral level, I don't think he got stronger in the timeskip due to his promotion. It makes no sense why he would get stronger at his age only due to a promotion. Did Kizaru get stronger in the 2 years? Anyways, he rides on that EOS scale, because he MUST be the EOS villain due to killing Ace and scarring Luffy. Therefore he must be stronger than Kaido and anyone else. Akainu does have amazing feats that puts him on Kaido and WB's level but for the benefit of the doubt I will give the W to WB and Kaido.

 

[Core D. Roy]

There is also Fujitora is able to see by using COO haki. In fact Oda drew what was in his minds eye and he could literally see energy outlines in the shape of the people. We also saw that Usopp when he first got COO was able to see Sugar as energy too so Oda's very own portrayal of COO makes it seem like invisibility should be useless fruit against haki users.

Invisibility fruit would be absolutely useless against anyone at or above Shiryu's level unless Oda elaborates on how COO works in more detail. Or Shiryu only uses it to take hostages and whatnot, which seems more likely the case.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 27, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 27, 2023 ---

The thing is, I still see Law and Kid having trouble with YC1's. I don't see how Kid or Law can counter Katakuri's FS and speed or King's durability. Law could possibly defeat King via K-Room like he did BM, but I still see Kata being faster than Law.
Kid on the other hand I don't see him being faster than Kata or strong enough to harm King, who possibly has a higher defense than BM or Kaido.

The problem with many OP power scalers is "Narrative/ End of Story". People use EOS and Narrative as a way to scale characters that don't have feats to back up those claims.
Example:
- Kid was/is seen as Luffy's rival, the WB to Roger, therefore Kid MUST be as strong or close to Luffy. This is "narrative". Same goes for Law, though Law does have better feats and closer to Luffy.
- Killer is seen as Zolo's counterpart, not rival, but peer due to Kid being "rival" to Luffy and Zolo is Luffy's 2nd in command thus Killer must be close to Zolo. His feats so far has been able to defeat Hawkins a Yonko Executive. Not close to Zolo at all.
- Blackbeard is seen as EoS villain, the final villain, thus he must be strong. I still view BB as weak compared to Kaido, but I believe BB will become stronger..
- Coby is seen as Luffy's Garp and because his dream to be an Admiral, therefore he must be strong due to narrative and EOS, but his feats place him below or at Vice Admiral.
- Mihawk, ooooh, his on-manga feats put him below a Yonko. Nothing shown so far can place him higher than a YC1. His best feat was clashing with Vista, a YC2. Jozu, a YC2 was able to block a powerful slash that was meant for WB. Due to Mihawk being Zolo's end goal to become WSS, people believe Mihawk will be EoS villain for Zolo and MUST be stronger than what he actually seems at the moment. Another thing is the title WSS, Mihawk rides on Shanks' feats, without doing anything close as amazing as Shanks, but because his title trumps Shanks, then Mihawk is automatically stronger than him, even though his feats say otherwise. Take away his title and he has nothing over Shanks. Mihawk fans ride on that title and nothing else.
And finally,
- Akainu, he is Admiral level, I don't think he got stronger in the timeskip due to his promotion. It makes no sense why he would get stronger at his age only due to a promotion. Did Kizaru get stronger in the 2 years? Anyways, he rides on that EOS scale, because he MUST be the EOS villain due to killing Ace and scarring Luffy. Therefore he must be stronger than Kaido and anyone else. Akainu does have amazing feats that puts him on Kaido and WB's level but for the benefit of the doubt I will give the W to WB and Kaido.

If feats were the only thing that mattered when powerscaling, this series would be boring as shit lol. Narrative intent means at least as much as "feats". Good lord I'm having flashbacks to when Kakashi cutting a lightning bolt was first mentioned in Naruto and the powerscalers never recovered.

 

[Darklord#10]

I have Law and Kid around half the power of a Yonko

It's enough for Shanks to tell his commanders he should handle Kid himself, but they still don't stand a chance against a Yonko 1-on-1

I see law holding himself against a yonko tho. I also felt like law was the one carrying during the BM fight

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Invisibility fruit would be absolutely useless against anyone at or above Shiryu's level unless Oda elaborates on how COO works in more detail. Or Shiryu only uses it to take hostages and whatnot, which seems more likely the case.

Yeah this is exactly my thoughts as well. It's just that BB has so far been saying he wants only powerful fruits so not sure why they went after the invisibility fruit at all. Maybe it's as you said and its for passive powers that bolster the crew as a whole vs help Shiryu in any serious 1v1. In theory if he can make other people invisible I could see it being useful for a spy network, making their ship invisible while they sail etc.

If feats were the only thing that mattered when powerscaling, this series would be boring as shit lol. Narrative intent means at least as much as "feats". Good lord I'm having flashbacks to when Kakashi cutting a lightning bolt was first mentioned in Naruto and the powerscalers never recovered.

Haha I forgot Kakashi cut lighting. Did we ever see that happen in any capacity lol?

Agree narrative definitely matters. Last I checked feats people were arguing that Kid & Law wouldn't defeat BM since they didn't have feats while narrative people said they would due to plot. And Oda definitely went the narrative route and will continue doing so. It means at times fights will leave a bad taste since they won't make any sense when looking at feats but we have to just accept them since that's the plot.

 

[Fox666]

Haha I forgot Kakashi cut lighting. Did we ever see that happen in any capacity lol?

No, Guy told the kids Raikiri ("Lightning Cutter") is called that because Kakashi cut a lightning bolt, and the kids were like "yeah right"

 

[HereNThere]

Invisibility fruit would be absolutely useless against anyone at or above Shiryu's level unless Oda elaborates on how COO works in more detail. Or Shiryu only uses it to take hostages and whatnot, which seems more likely the case.

Yeah this is exactly my thoughts as well. It's just that BB has so far been saying he wants only powerful fruits so not sure why they went after the invisibility fruit at all. Maybe it's as you said and its for passive powers that bolster the crew as a whole vs help Shiryu in any serious 1v1. In theory if he can make other people invisible I could see it being useful for a spy network, making their ship invisible while they sail etc.

Personally, I'm of the idea that Oda will likely expand on what the Suke Suke no Mi can do. The Blackbeard Pirates all have simple, yet hax abilities and I don't see that fruit being any different. I'm excited to see what he does along with the rest of the crew.

Like, as soon as Shiryu got the fruit, I always saw Oda eventually adding the ability to phase to it and that would basically give him a cheat to cut through anything. That would be a great contrast to Zoro who worked hard to master his swordsmanship and attain that same ability.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

No, Guy told the kids Raikiri ("Lightning Cutter") is called that because Kakashi cut a lightning bolt, and the kids were like "yeah right"

I looked it up and apparently they had Kakashi cut a lightning bolt in a filler Shippuden episode. However, they purposefully skip the literal scene where he does it and instead show peoples reactions. Kind of like the animators wanted to tease us even more

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 27, 2023, Original Post Date: Mar 27, 2023 ---

Personally, I'm of the idea that Oda will likely expand on what the Suke Suke no Mi can do. The Blackbeard Pirates all have simple, yet hax abilities and I don't see that fruit being any different. I'm excited to see what he does along with the rest of the crew.

Like, as soon as Shiryu got the fruit, I always saw Oda eventually adding the ability to phase to it and that would basically give him a cheat to cut through anything. That would be a great contrast to Zoro who worked hard to master his swordsmanship and attain that same ability.

I definitely expect Oda to expand the abilities too. But I don't get what you mean here about "adding the ability to phase to it" and how that effects Shiryu's ability to cut anything. Can you elaborate what you mean?

I expected Oda expanding it to be invisible to all direct senses so people couldn't use haki, echo location etc but that seemed sort of lame.

 

[HereNThere]

I definitely expect Oda to expand the abilities too. But I don't get what you mean here about "adding the ability to phase to it" and how that effects Shiryu's ability to cut anything. Can you elaborate what you mean?

Basically, I think Oda is going to take the definition of "clear" to the extreme and allow him to become nothing/intangible or, more accurately in his case, gives him the ability to have his sword become intangible and literally cut through whatever he wants with no resistance.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Bruh

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Basically, I think Oda is going to take the definition of "clear" to the extreme and allow him to become nothing/intangible or, more accurately in his case, gives him the ability to have his sword become intangible and literally cut through whatever he wants with no resistance.

If the sword is intangible wouldn't that mean he can't cut anything kind of like Tobi in Naruto or Lemillion in MH. They can phase through anything and everything but the balance is while in that phasing state they can't attack. Unless you're saying he phases partway through and then solidifies e.g. when the swords go to clash he phases through but then solifies when contacting the body. This would be super cool and be like that light saber fighting technique where user turns on/off rapidly in duels

 

[Fallou]

The thing is, I still see Law and Kid having trouble with YC1's. I don't see how Kid or Law can counter Katakuri's FS and speed or King's durability. Law could possibly defeat King via K-Room like he did BM, but I still see Kata being faster than Law.
Kid on the other hand I don't see him being faster than Kata or strong enough to harm King, who possibly has a higher defense than BM or Kaido.

The problem with many OP power scalers is "Narrative/ End of Story". People use EOS and Narrative as a way to scale characters that don't have feats to back up those claims.
Example:
- Kid was/is seen as Luffy's rival, the WB to Roger, therefore Kid MUST be as strong or close to Luffy. This is "narrative". Same goes for Law, though Law does have better feats and closer to Luffy.
- Killer is seen as Zolo's counterpart, not rival, but peer due to Kid being "rival" to Luffy and Zolo is Luffy's 2nd in command thus Killer must be close to Zolo. His feats so far has been able to defeat Hawkins a Yonko Executive. Not close to Zolo at all.
- Blackbeard is seen as EoS villain, the final villain, thus he must be strong. I still view BB as weak compared to Kaido, but I believe BB will become stronger..
- Coby is seen as Luffy's Garp and because his dream to be an Admiral, therefore he must be strong due to narrative and EOS, but his feats place him below or at Vice Admiral.
- Mihawk, ooooh, his on-manga feats put him below a Yonko. Nothing shown so far can place him higher than a YC1. His best feat was clashing with Vista, a YC2. Jozu, a YC2 was able to block a powerful slash that was meant for WB. Due to Mihawk being Zolo's end goal to become WSS, people believe Mihawk will be EoS villain for Zolo and MUST be stronger than what he actually seems at the moment. Another thing is the title WSS, Mihawk rides on Shanks' feats, without doing anything close as amazing as Shanks, but because his title trumps Shanks, then Mihawk is automatically stronger than him, even though his feats say otherwise. Take away his title and he has nothing over Shanks. Mihawk fans ride on that title and nothing else.
And finally,
- Akainu, he is Admiral level, I don't think he got stronger in the timeskip due to his promotion. It makes no sense why he would get stronger at his age only due to a promotion. Did Kizaru get stronger in the 2 years? Anyways, he rides on that EOS scale, because he MUST be the EOS villain due to killing Ace and scarring Luffy. Therefore he must be stronger than Kaido and anyone else. Akainu does have amazing feats that puts him on Kaido and WB's level but for the benefit of the doubt I will give the W to WB and Kaido.

I think you’re not wrong about some of these things you’re saying in your post.
I would argue that some of these were purely fan headcannon while others are more stable statements…

-Kidd being Luffy’s rival and his “WB”, thus Killer being like Zoro, for instance, was never even hinted at in the manga

-It’s not because there’s a parallel (like Coby with Garp) that things necessarily play out the same. Luffy’s extraordinary growth messes up the “normal” cycle of power development in which Coby would take years to get near his level

-To me you’re absolutely right about BB and lately I’ve been thinking that he might totally not be Luffy’s endgame at all. And we still have to see proof that he’s an equal in strength to the OG Yonko.

-Mihawk is a different story, he HAS been officially called the strongest swordsman and os very important narratively, so even if he’s a bit below Shanks, he still has to be very very strong or Zoro’s end goal won’t really be interesting anymore.

 

[john ellis]

@albertwv law easily bypasses king's defense, if anything king's worst MU is probably law. Once again FS is over rated, also kata's FS is worse then shanks. Like kata's fs is nothing special to top tiers. Shanks S only stopped kidd because he could stop kidd

 

[DeadlyBeast]

@albertwv law easily bypasses king's defense, if anything king's worst MU is probably law. Once again FS is over rated, also kata's FS is worse then shanks. Like kata's fs is nothing special to top tiers. Shanks S only stopped kidd because he could stop kidd

That's actually a very interesting question, does Lunarian defense also work on DF abilities? If not then there actually should be a lot of ways around it. It's just we've been stuck with characters that almost all use blunt attacks. Maybe that's why VP was worried about Frankies laser.

 

[Fox666]

That's actually a very interesting question, does Lunarian defense also work on DF abilities? If not then there actually should be a lot of ways around it. It's just we've been stuck with characters that almost all use blunt attacks. Maybe that's why VP was worried about Frankies laser.

We just saw S-Shark being electrocuted by Nami

 

[DeadlyBeast]

We just saw S-Shark being electrocuted by Nami

Yes but he got back up without seeming damaged so it's not clear if it had any actual effect. The reason I'm interested in whether DFs effect them is specifically about bypassing the Lunarian durability.

For example so far we have not seen Seraphim use any haki. Does that mean Law's basic Ope Ope power Amputation can just start cutting them into bits? Or would this all powerful Lunarian defense block that?

We know for sure that brute force, cutting attacks, fire/heat, and electricity so far don't actually damage the Seraphims. They just get back up. However, OP world has lots of DF powers that act in very specific ways that should ignore durability. If Seraphim are not able to use haki and their Lunarian defense can't block these then they actually diminish in threat by a whole lot.

 

[Lord Traffy Law]

I still think there’s a narrative mismatch
Law is more akin to luffy WB, and kidd is more akin to luffy shiki

 

[SanaNeOlm]

I think you’re not wrong about some of these things you’re saying in your post.
I would argue that some of these were purely fan headcannon while others are more stable statements…

-Kidd being Luffy’s rival and his “WB”, thus Killer being like Zoro, for instance, was never even hinted at in the manga

-It’s not because there’s a parallel (like Coby with Garp) that things necessarily play out the same. Luffy’s extraordinary growth messes up the “normal” cycle of power development in which Coby would take years to get near his level

-To me you’re absolutely right about BB and lately I’ve been thinking that he might totally not be Luffy’s endgame at all. And we still have to see proof that he’s an equal in strength to the OG Yonko.

-Mihawk is a different story, he HAS been officially called the strongest swordsman and os very important narratively, so even if he’s a bit below Shanks, he still has to be very very strong or Zoro’s end goal won’t really be interesting anymore.

I guess the reason BB got the Yami fruit specifically could be so he actually counters Luffys Nika abilities. If you think about it narratively, it makes sense. The Yami Yami no Mi basically takes away any freedom you got by absolute gravity, like a Black Hole (nothing escapes), while Luffys Nika fruit gives absolute freedom (heck he created glasses out of hair).

To the last point about Mihawk and generally, just yep. It always plays a role who says what. If some random South Blue citizen says "Whitebeard is a heartless demon who will destroy the world" we can call it bs. If the strongest fighters in the verse say someone is the best in something, we can put more faith behind these words. If someone like Law says "the D. are the enemies of God" we can start to wonder. Hence narration absolutely plays a huge role in scaling imo.