One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

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This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

This is my take on gear 5.

Gear 5 gives seemingly unlimited "freedom" to Luffy's body. He doesn't need to pump himself to become a giant, he can just "want" to become that, and he would.

Gear 5 has massively higher blunt force resistance compared to his previous forms, though it isn't exactly clear why that is the case. Body forming around blunt force attacks is a thing even in base, and haki is supposed to counter this.
He isn't exactly immune, as we saw Kaido hurting Luffy with his attacks. But the difference in blunt force resistance was still glaringly obvious and massive relative to his prior forms.

Totally agree on the greatly boosted physical resistance, especially to blunt force attacks. I also think Luffy's haki is better when in that mode so his haki defenses are seemingly higher since Kaido even pointed how he's clad in CoA+aCoC even though to us it was invisible i.e. Oda didn't do the typical darkening. I think this might mean Luffy's extreme body forming around blunt attacks now may be a bit more akin to Katakuri dodging with FS. It's kind of like Luffy wills his body to contort to the shape while the attack is landing so it does even less damage, sorta blunting the attack on top of his rubber defenses.

Comparison to gear 4

I think gear 4 "on average" has higher attack power and has higher attack speed, because gear 4 is constantly under intense spring force.

Gear 5 is capable of surpassing gear 4's attack power, once the giant forms are pulled out.

I don't think gear 5 is capable of surpassing gear 4's attack speed, because this attack speed is inherently a result of intense spring force. But this can't happen with gear 5 because there is no known limit to stretching, and hence practically impossible to get spring force at least in theory (think of it as k approximating 0 where force is kx)

Gear 5 does have great cqc because of no limitations on the body though, as we saw with fight against Lucci. He can just move whereever he wants, which makes tagging him very hard.

I don't know from the damage Kaido and Lucci took from Luffy in G5 it seems damage might be higher. Do you think for example Lucci would have passed out from a regular G4 Kong Gun? I also think the muscle form in G5 is stronger than G4 but maybe you consider that in the same vein as turning giant.

On the tension point, Luffy's Bajrang gun in G5 actually has the same compressed form as his G4 Kong variants (it pretty much was just an even bigger King Kong Gun) . To me that means Luffy can still do the elasticity thing of G4 in G5 if he wants to for a move that requires tension to be built. I'm thinking we will get future variations of G4 main attacks in G5, maybe even one in this arc against Kizaru (if I had to guess a G5 variation of King Cobra since Kizaru is speedy).

 

[kkck]

Luffy's muscle form in G5 is definitely stronger than G4 IMO. It's simply too convenient and the lack of haki to sustain the form should leave more haki for attacking.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

The muscle form's raw strength was pretty high considering how easily he was able to swing him around.

Honestly G5 when mastered will be pretty unbeatable. Luffy just needs to overcome the energy consumption and mental effects, which is a classic SSJ problem that Goku & Gohan mastered. Knowing how much Oda borrows from DB when it comes to these types of tropes it wouldn't be crazy to think Luffy mastering G5 means he can fight long multi hour battles in that form and can use aCoO by not losing his composure (imagine hitting him if he can change his shape like Katakuri).

 

[kkck]

The muscle form's raw strength was pretty high considering how easily he was able to swing him around.

Honestly G5 when mastered will be pretty unbeatable. Luffy just needs to overcome the energy consumption and mental effects, which is a classic SSJ problem that Goku & Gohan mastered. Knowing how much Oda borrows from DB when it comes to these types of tropes it wouldn't be crazy to think Luffy mastering G5 means he can fight long multi hour battles in that form and can use aCoO by not losing his composure (imagine hitting him if he can change his shape like Katakuri).

Luffys g5 should be a step behind katakuri in regards to that. Luffy is pretty malleable but his fruit doesn't seem to have anything that would match a logias intangibility. What he could do is something like extreme kami-e.... I think we can safely assume that Luffy has been using future sight in fights since he learned the skill. The requirement to use it is not even that strict, luffy very rarely loses his composure in fights. The requirement of composure isn't so strict that your mind has to be blank or emotionless to use it.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Luffys g5 should be a step behind katakuri in regards to that. Luffy is pretty malleable but his fruit doesn't seem to have anything that would match a logias intangibility. What he could do is something like extreme kami-e.... I think we can safely assume that Luffy has been using future sight in fights since he learned the skill. The requirement to use it is not even that strict, luffy very rarely loses his composure in fights. The requirement of composure isn't so strict that your mind has to be blank or emotionless to use it.

Yeah he definitely would not be at the level of a logia in that regard but the level of malleability he has now definitely is very high. Agree it is like an extreme kami-e but he can still move around unlike the Rokishiki technique. On the FS part the standards required haven't been very clear but moments that show that he or others explicitly use it makes me think for people not named Katakuri it is not in constant use. In G5 so far Luffy seems to get caught off guard a lot due to him being very silly and not paying attention (obv could just be Oda pushing the cartoon aspect of things).

 

[albertwv]

How strong do you think Luffy is now without Gear 5? I am talking about his base form. Gear 2, and Gear 4? Who can those forms beat individually?
For example,
Base Luffy with ACoC, ACoO, and ACoA, can defeat mid-high diff Ulti. That's my opinion.

Gear 2 Luffy can match Doffy now and maybe even Katakuri (maybe)

Gear 4 Luffy can match or defeat Yamato.

I'm not claiming he can one-shot them like Kaido would but he can certainly defeat them.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

How strong do you think Luffy is now without Gear 5? I am talking about his base form. Gear 2, and Gear 4? Who can those forms beat individually?
For example,
Base Luffy with ACoC, ACoO, and ACoA, can defeat mid-high diff Ulti. That's my opinion.

Gear 2 Luffy can match Doffy now and maybe even Katakuri (maybe)

Gear 4 Luffy can match or defeat Yamato.

I'm not claiming he can one-shot them like Kaido would but he can certainly defeat them.

My opinion on your matchups are:

Base Luffy w/haki >>> Ulti (basically low low diff)
I'd say Base Luffy with aCoC, aCoO, aCoA would low diff Ulti. Hell P1 was taken out in a single aCoC punch from BM. Ulti may be stronger than him but not by much. I'd say a few solid hits from Luffy would be all it takes without him even going all out in Base form.

G2 Luffy w/haki >> Doffy OR Katakuri
G2 Luffy without any haki I think would be high diff with Doffy/Katakuri at best if it's possible at all for him to win without any haki, especially against Katakuri. But if you say it is with all his haki abilities (aCoC+aCoO+aCoA) then I'd say low diff for both of them, just not as low a diff as Ulti.

G4 Luffy w/haki > Yamato
I'd say G4 Luffy with all haki abilities (aCoC+aCoO+aCoA) would mid diff Yamato at worst and maybe even low diff her. Yamato couldn't even take off the cuffs and in raw power/durability came no where close to G4 Luffy performance against Kaido. I don't think this fight would end quickly but I also don't see Luffy even being remotely pushed to his limits.

 

[albertwv]

Im talking about current Luffy with all his powers he has gained (except Gear 5). So yes this Base and Gear 2/4 Luffy with ACoC, ACoA, and ACoO.
Base Luffy can not One Shot strong characters like Kaido or BM or Shanks could.
I think the strongest he could one shot (with ACoC duh) in his base form without gear 2 is the Headliners like Babanuki, Holdem, a Pacifista,.

Even though Base ACoC Luffy was able to keep up with Hybrid Beast Kaido who was using ACoC as well, in reality he was outmatched by him. As we saw even in Gear 4 he could not take down Kaido. The only reason Kaido lost to the Bajrang Gun was due to his overconfidence. Kaido was winning that fight versus Gear 5.

 

[BlackTiger]

My opinion on your matchups are:

Base Luffy w/haki >>> Ulti (basically low low diff)
I'd say Base Luffy with aCoC, aCoO, aCoA would low diff Ulti. Hell P1 was taken out in a single aCoC punch from BM. Ulti may be stronger than him but not by much. I'd say a few solid hits from Luffy would be all it takes without him even going all out in Base form.

G2 Luffy w/haki >> Doffy OR Katakuri
G2 Luffy without any haki I think would be high diff with Doffy/Katakuri at best if it's possible at all for him to win without any haki, especially against Katakuri. But if you say it is with all his haki abilities (aCoC+aCoO+aCoA) then I'd say low diff for both of them, just not as low a diff as Ulti.

G4 Luffy w/haki > Yamato
I'd say G4 Luffy with all haki abilities (aCoC+aCoO+aCoA) would mid diff Yamato at worst and maybe even low diff her. Yamato couldn't even take off the cuffs and in raw power/durability came no where close to G4 Luffy performance against Kaido. I don't think this fight would end quickly but I also don't see Luffy even being remotely pushed to his limits.

Gear 2 is much slower than Snakeman so this is impossible. Gear 2 without Future Sight cannot tag Katakuri. Add advCoC to non Future Sight Gear 2 and Gear 2 still cannot tag Katakuri. Doesn't matter if current Luffy uses advCoC, current Luffy without Snakeman cannot beat Katakuri.

Only Snakeman form due to massive speed boost and Gear 5 due to Bajrang Gun aoe can beat Katakuri. Base, Gear 2, Boundman Luffy without Future Sight and only advCoC cannot tag Katakuri. AdvCoC won't make non Future Sight base, Gear 2 or Boundman Luffy attacks faster. AdvCoC only adds to attack power which is useless if it cannot help him to hit his opponent.

Gear 2 with advCoC will have a much easier time to beat Yamato because she is much slower than WCI Snakeman. It would take several hours or even impossible for advCoC Gear 2 to tag Katakuri.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Gear 2 is much slower than Snakeman so this is impossible. Gear 2 without Future Sight cannot tag Katakuri. Add advCoC to non Future Sight Gear 2 and Gear 2 still cannot tag Katakuri. Doesn't matter if current Luffy uses advCoC, current Luffy without Snakeman cannot beat Katakuri.

Only Snakeman form due to massive speed boost and Gear 5 due to Bajrang Gun aoe can beat Katakuri. Base, Gear 2, Boundman Luffy without Future Sight and only advCoC cannot tag Katakuri. AdvCoC won't make non Future Sight base, Gear 2 or Boundman Luffy attacks faster. AdvCoC only adds to attack power which is useless if it cannot help him to hit his opponent.

Gear 2 with advCoC will have a much easier time to beat Yamato because she is much slower than WCI Snakeman. It would take several hours or even impossible for advCoC Gear 2 to tag Katakuri.

We explicitly said its G2+haki meaning Luffy does have future sight and on top of that has aCoA and aCoC. So Kata FS won't be an issue for Luffy and with aCoA+aCoC he'd have more power than just than just G4 with standard haki.

 

[BlackTiger]

We explicitly said its G2+haki meaning Luffy does have future sight and on top of that has aCoA and aCoC. So Kata FS won't be an issue for Luffy and with aCoA+aCoC he'd have more power than just than just G4 with standard haki.

Gear 2 Luffy with Future Sight was Katakuri's punching bag in WCI. Current Gear 2 Luffy with Future Sight will be Katakuri punching bag too.

AdvCoC won't help him. It won't make Gear 2 attacks faster. It won't improve Gear 2's reaction speed.

Katakuri is a kryptonite for those who rely on advCoC but lack Snakeman speed because advCoC won't help them to hit Katakuri unless they develop FS and speed too.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Gear 2 Luffy with Future Sight was Katakuri's punching bag in WCI. Current Gear 2 Luffy with Future Sight will be Katakuri punching bag too.

Luffy hadn't even mastered future sight yet so not a good comparison. It's like comparing current Luffy CoA with start of TS CoA. Totally different levels of mastery.

AdvCoC won't help him. It won't make Gear 2 attacks faster. It won't improve Gear 2's reaction speed.

Yeah the most significant boost in attack power Oda has introduced post skip won't help at all, a Yonko Luffy is helpless against Katakuri who he already beat while a noob.

Katakuri is a kryptonite for those who rely on advCoC but lack Snakeman speed because advCoC won't help them to hit Katakuri unless they develop FS and speed too.

Luffy does have a mastered FS nowso the rest is moot.

 

[BlackTiger]

Luffy hadn't even mastered future sight yet so not a good comparison. It's like comparing current Luffy CoA with start of TS CoA. Totally different levels of mastery.

Baseless he only trained his armament in Udon. He didn't train his observation haki. No it's like comparing Fishman Island Luffy with Punk Hazard Luffy literally there's no difference in his observation haki just like Wano Luffy and WCI Luffy.

WCI and Wano is also 1 arc apart so the better comparison is Fishman Island Luffy and Punk Hazard Luffy.

Start of TS Luffy and current Luffy is 6 arcs apart.

Not comparable at all.

Yeah the most significant boost in attack power Oda has introduced post skip won't help at all, a Yonko Luffy is helpless against Katakuri who he already beat while a noob.

Only significant boost in ap not attack speed. So with advCoC Gear 2 Luffy still cannot hit Katakuri. He is still Katakuri's punching bag just like what happened in WCI. It's Kaido own fault getting tagged by base Luffy because he's not as fast as Katakuri. Not Katakuri's fault. Chapter 1042 shows how Kaido advCoC cannot help him against Snakeman speed. In the end Kaido had to copy FS and copy Snakeman movement to counter Snakeman speed.

Luffy also beat Katakuri with FS and Snakeman form. WCI Luffy without FS and Snakeman form but with adv CoC only cannot beat Katakuri because advCoC won't make his attacks faster to hit Katakuri so your argument does not make sense.

Luffy does have a mastered FS nowso the rest is moot.

Luffy mastered FS in WCI so your argument is moot. AdvCoC won't make his attacks faster. Gear 2 Luffy with FS and advCoC is still Katakuri punching bag.

Katakuri's weakness is not advCoC. It's super speed and FS.

 

[kkck]

Welp, during wano we saw luffy from not being able to dodge kaido's attacks even with gear 4 to being able to both hold his own without even using gear 4. Setting that aside, luffy's improvements to his armor haki during wano don't provide only offensive boosts, they also substantially increase his defense. There's also the consideration of conqueror haki cladding which potentially also raises his defense (the manga suggests that kaido's and big mom's invulnerability comes from it). Even if luffy's speed was the same post wano (which is an insane suggestion), the fact remains that luffy's defenses post wano are just miles ahead of what they were even early wano and his offensive capacity is much higher. Katakuri's attacks simply won't be as effective as they were during WCI. Meanwhile even without G4 luffy's attacks with emission, internal damage and cladding will simply hit a lot harder. Katakuri isn't invincible, he only appears that way to people outside his weight class.

 

[BlackTiger]

Welp, during wano we saw luffy from not being able to dodge kaido's attacks even with gear 4 to being able to both hold his own without even using gear 4. Setting that aside, luffy's improvements to his armor haki during wano don't provide only offensive boosts, they also substantially increase his defense. There's also the consideration of conqueror haki cladding which potentially also raises his defense (the manga suggests that kaido's and big mom's invulnerability comes from it).

Welp Luffy was keeping up with nameless Kaido club swing. Thunder Bagua blitzed Boundman again chapter 1042 so I don't see any difference in speed. Luffy did not get faster. Kaido just used slower attacks, his nameless club swings. The moment Kaido used Thunder Bagua again chapter 1042, non CoO Luffy got blitzed again mirroring act 1 Luffy.

Act 1 Luffy cannot dodge Thunder Bagua because he did not use Future Sight. Rooftop Luffy dodged Thunder Bagau because he used Future Sight. He did not get faster.

Manga never suggests Kaido and Big Mom durability came from advCoC hardening. Do you have proofs of that? Which panels?

Even if luffy's speed was the same post wano (which is an insane suggestion),

So Shanks>>>Kaido because Shanks blitzed Elbaf Kidd who was faster than Wano Kidd (by virtue of powercreep) that was keeping up with Kaido's speed?

the fact remains that luffy's defenses post wano are just miles ahead of what they were even early wano and his offensive capacity is much higher. Katakuri's attacks simply won't be as effective as they were during WCI.

Another power creep argument so Shanks>>>Kaido?

AdvCoC did not make Luffy more durable so I did not see any facts that you're talking about. Maybe your opinion not your facts because we saw Luffy took advCoC Kaido without hardening his face. Luffy was already that durable from WCI.

Luffy without haki still cannot destroy perospero's candy.

Meanwhile even without G4 luffy's attacks with emission, internal damage and cladding will simply hit a lot harder. Katakuri isn't invincible, he only appears that way to people outside his weight class.

Shanks>>>Kaido then since this is power creep argument. Why would Luffy physical strength increase when you think Luffy speed did not increase. AdvCoC did not boost Luffy's natural physical strength. Luffy's natural strength without advCoC won't increase just because he learnt how to coat his attacks with CoC.

Luffy without haki still cannot destroy Perospero candy. Haki made it possible for Luffy to damage Kaido. Without haki, Luffy won't hit that hard.

Just like Zoro with haki can scar Kaido with Ashura. Zoro without haki cannot overpower Apoo even with Drake's help. Zoro without haki got overpowered by zoan form Kaku.

Luffy still won't be able to hit Katakuri so this is impossible. People on his weight class are those with FS and Snakeman speed. Base Luffy without FS and Snakeman speed but with only advCoC and advCoA is not on Katakuri's class. He's just Katakuri's punching bag.

 

[albertwv]

Nah, I disagree with Blacktiger. Luffy has increased his speed and improved his Future Sight. He is not the same speed as he was in WCI.
Luffy no longer needs Snakeman to keep up with Kata's speed. No way. I think Gear 2 is enough or even Gear 4 Boundman.
In Udon we saw him train his ACoA only but I think over time he has improved his FS through hard battles so it can't be said that his speed is the same as it was in WCI.

Idk why you're bringing up HAKILESS Luffy when I stated the current Luffy with all his new power ups (ACoC, ACoA, and ACoO).
Luffy has become more durable his defense has gone up, idk where you are getting it that he hasn't.
Although he may not be as durable as Kaido or BM, he has gotten stronger defense. We literally saw him get OHKO by Kaido at the start of Wano, to Onigashima where he tanked various Thunder Baguas and even stronger ones.

 

[BlackTiger]

Powercreep dies the moment Shanks 1 shot Kidd.

By virtue of powercreep, Elbaf Kidd was faster than Wano Kidd who was keeping up with Kaido's speed. Shanks blitzing stronger Kidd means Shanks blitzes Kaido and since Shanks ap>Kaido ap, Shanks low diffs Kaido too. Powercreep implies Shanks>Kaido which does not make sense and contradicts the manga. because Kaido fought Shanks and said only Joyboy can beat him.

Hard battles only boosted Luffy advCoC not his CoO or attack speed. Luffy at the start of his fight against Katakuri got his arm swollen just from clashing with Block Mochi. Luffy with Snakeman (after 10 hours battle) still got his arm swollen from clashing with Block Mochi. Literally there's no improvement in Luffy's CoA so no reason to think there's an improvement in Luffy's CoO against Kaido when Luffy improvement was attack power thanks to advCoC.

Base Luffy in Egghead also got stopped by Bonney (who was struggling to catch frail old Vegapunk) from destroying Pacifista police. Was Egghead Bonney as fast as Gear 2 WCI Luffy too?

Kaido OHKO Luffy with Thunder Bagua.

Post Udon Luffy was tanking nameless Kaido club swing.

That shows Thunder Bagua base Kaido>>>Nameless club swing hybrid Kaido who was weakened too (stated by Yamato).

There's no durability boost Kaido used weaker attacks. Kaido was also weakened.

 

[albertwv]

Powercreep dies the moment Shanks 1 shot Kidd.

By virtue of powercreep, Elbaf Kidd was faster than Wano Kidd who was keeping up with Kaido's speed. Shanks blitzing stronger Kidd means Shanks blitzes Kaido and since Shanks ap>Kaido ap, Shanks low diffs Kaido too. Powercreep implies Shanks>Kaido which does not make sense and contradicts the manga. because Kaido fought Shanks and said only Joyboy can beat him.

Hard battles only boosted Luffy advCoC not his CoO or attack speed. Luffy at the start of his fight against Katakuri got his arm swollen just from clashing with Block Mochi. Luffy with Snakeman (after 10 hours battle) still got his arm swollen from clashing with Block Mochi. Literally there's no improvement in Luffy's CoA so no reason to think there's an improvement in Luffy's CoO against Kaido when Luffy improvement was attack power thanks to advCoC.

Base Luffy in Egghead also got stopped by Bonney (who was struggling to catch frail old Vegapunk) from destroying Pacifista police. Was Egghead Bonney as fast as Gear 2 WCI Luffy too?

Kaido OHKO Luffy with Thunder Bagua.

Post Udon Luffy was tanking nameless Kaido club swing.

That shows Thunder Bagua base Kaido>>>Nameless club swing hybrid Kaido who was weakened too (stated by Yamato).

There's no durability boost Kaido used weaker attacks. Kaido was also weakened.

Lol you're so wrong and have been using the same argument even though its been debunked.
Wano Kidd was no way keeping up with Kaido's speed at all. He could barely keep up with BM's speed which is way inferior.
Kid being defeated by Shanks is finally Oda doing right by the power levels.

Kidd isn't automatically stronger due to "defeating" Big Mom. LOL. NO WAY.
Kidd is not Admiral or YC1+ level with or without Awakening. Oda made a mistake in putting him and Law as the same as Luffy. Luffy outmatches them both, together.
Kidd's attack did nothing to Kaido and only with a combo attack was he able to harm BM. In the end, they had to resort to outside interference to defeat BM.
So when Kidd fought Shanks, Shanks saw how destructive the laser cannon was going to be against his weaker crewmembers, and Shanks who adores and cares for his weak crewmembers decided he didn't want to see them die so he blitzes Kidd and OHKO's him.

Kidd isn't anything special as many people believe he is. I wish he was, because he would make a great rival to Luffy but Oda decided Kidd wasnt worth the time.

 

[BlackTiger]

Lol you're so wrong and have been using the same argument even though its been debunked.
Wano Kidd was no way keeping up with Kaido's speed at all. He could barely keep up with BM's speed which is way inferior.
Kid being defeated by Shanks is finally Oda doing right by the power levels.

There's no rebuttal at all. Kidd literally stalemated Big Mom before Law came to help that means Kidd can keep up with Big Mom's speed.

Big Mom was keeping up with Kaido speed when they're fighting for 3 days.

Shanks in less than 10 seconds destroy Kidd and Killler.
Big Mom lost to Kidd and Law.

Kidd isn't automatically stronger due to "defeating" Big Mom. LOL. NO WAY.
Kidd is not Admiral or YC1+ level with or without Awakening. Oda made a mistake in putting him and Law as the same as Luffy. Luffy outmatches them both, together.

So did Kidd get stronger or not after Wano? If his physical stats did not change then I did not see any reason why Luffy's physical stats like speed, strength and durability should change after Wano.

Kidd's attack did nothing to Kaido and only with a combo attack was he able to harm BM. In the end, they had to resort to outside interference to defeat BM.
So when Kidd fought Shanks, Shanks saw how destructive the laser cannon was going to be against his weaker crewmembers, and Shanks who adores and cares for his weak crewmembers decided he didn't want to see them die so he blitzes Kidd and OHKO's him.

Future Sight did not make Shanks faster. Shanks used Future Sight when Kidd was charging his Railgun. Shanks then chose to end Kidd immediately the moment Kidd was charging his Railgn due to the future he saw.

So Kidd was charging his Railgun->Shanks was seeing the future->Shanks was charging toward Kidd (Kidd was still charging his Railgun)->Shanks 1 shot Kidd and Killer. It's still a blitz.

Shanks still blitzed Kidd. Kidd stalemated Big Mom before Law came to help Kidd. Big Mom kept up with Kaido's speed.

Shanks 1 shot Kidd and Killer.
Big Mom lost to Kidd and Law.

Why cannot Big Mom OHKO Kidd and Law? By virtue of powercreep, shouldn't Wano Kidd much slower than Elbaf Kidd that Shanks blitzed It seems like there's no speed boost for Kidd which means there's no reason for Luffy's speed boost as well.

If you agree with powercreep, Elbaf Kidd>Wano Kidd. Elbaf Killer=Wano Law.
Shanks 1 shot 2 stronger SN while BM lost to 2 weaker SN destroys powercreep since that implies Shanks>>>Big Mom=<Kaido which contradicts the manga.

Kidd isn't anything special as many people believe he is. I wish he was, because he would make a great rival to Luffy but Oda decided Kidd wasnt worth the time.

It's not that Kidd is not anything special. Kidd did not get faster after Wano because Shanks literally debunks this by blitzing him while Kidd without awakening kept up with Big Mom before Law came to help. If Kidd did not get faster after fighting Big Mom, Luffy did not get faster just because he fought Kaido.

Egghead Luffy got stopped by Bonney from attacking pacifista police. Bonney struggled to catch old frail vegapunk.

Let me make it simple. If Kidd did not get faster after Wano, there's no reason for Luffy to get faster after Wano too. Which means there's no reason for Luffy to get faster after Udon too since he mainly trained his armament so Gear 2 Luffy is still much slower than WCI Snakeman.

 

[grey matter]

How strong do you think Luffy is now without Gear 5? I am talking about his base form. Gear 2, and Gear 4? Who can those forms beat individually?
For example,
Base Luffy with ACoC, ACoO, and ACoA, can defeat mid-high diff Ulti. That's my opinion.

Gear 2 Luffy can match Doffy now and maybe even Katakuri (maybe)

Gear 4 Luffy can match or defeat Yamato.

I'm not claiming he can one-shot them like Kaido would but he can certainly defeat them.

Current Base Luffy with all advanced haki is far stronger than Ulti. I'd say he's as strong as current Sanji.

With G2 + G3, he's about as strong as current Zoro.

With G4, he's as strong as Big Mom or Oden.

With G5, he's as strong as or stronger than Kaido.

Though with G4 and G5, a time limit is involved.
Overall, I'd say Luffy is comprable to Oden and slightly stronger than Big Mom. And weaker than the high end top tiers like Kaido.

Lol you're so wrong and have been using the same argument even though its been debunked.
Wano Kidd was no way keeping up with Kaido's speed at all. He could barely keep up with BM's speed which is way inferior.
Kid being defeated by Shanks is finally Oda doing right by the power levels.

Kidd isn't automatically stronger due to "defeating" Big Mom. LOL. NO WAY.
Kidd is not Admiral or YC1+ level with or without Awakening. Oda made a mistake in putting him and Law as the same as Luffy. Luffy outmatches them both, together.
Kidd's attack did nothing to Kaido and only with a combo attack was he able to harm BM. In the end, they had to resort to outside interference to defeat BM.
So when Kidd fought Shanks, Shanks saw how destructive the laser cannon was going to be against his weaker crewmembers, and Shanks who adores and cares for his weak crewmembers decided he didn't want to see them die so he blitzes Kidd and OHKO's him.

Kidd isn't anything special as many people believe he is. I wish he was, because he would make a great rival to Luffy but Oda decided Kidd wasnt worth the time.

+ @BlackTiger
The Shanks feat can simply be explained away by concluding that Shanks hits on a different tier from Big Mom.

It isn't even really hard to see why. Swordsmen are known to hit much harder relative to their tier. Plus, Shanks doesn't have durability comparable to Kaido or big mom, not even close, so he needs relatively higher attack power and CQC to be top tier