Semifinal Reinhard van Astrea vs. Vegeta

[Blakestnight666]

You didn't prove anything, you presented this: "Tenshinhan held down (didn't particularly damage) imperfect cell with his op ability that kills himself so it's perfectly normal that Yamcha, who was always weaker and stopped training, caught up and multiplied his strength".

Kai removes filler, not all.

I worded it the other way around, my bad. Daizenshuu states there's only 4 galaxies, we currently know they are countless.

And those four galaxies are four quadrants which contains innumerable stars and nebulas which are galaxies.

 

[Lambu]

Here Jiren breaks out of a "pocket dimension" if you will, were time is totally frozen. And thats just the obious ones.

The dimensionsplattering screeches of Gotenks and Buu were already mentioned.

That Beerus scene reminded me of how planets in DBS are like made of cardboard, how does the planet even remain there cut in half?
The Hit scene I concede, tho one could argue the effectiveness of the technique depends on the power of the opponent its used on, just like when Goku Blue KKx10 broke through it but before that couldn't (because Hit was a strong as him).

I already brought up Yamcha being as strong as perfect Cell and being seen as a back up plan to fight Buu.

Kai still has filler scenes, they are present in at least half of its airing and has two (I think?) completely filler episodes.

Not sure what you mean with "Daizenshuu" site but the daizenshuu booklets are supplemental, not source material and even contradict it at points (like saying there's an unmeasurable amount of galaxies and then Super has a count for them).

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 29, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 29, 2021 ---

Jiren was still stronger though. Beerus is famously always holding back.

The most recent books even set Goku SS3 = BuuGohan and the entire community repudiated it. Like, if that was the case why was even Vegetto needed at the time?

Toriyama has forgot a lot about his own series after the years.

 

[Blakestnight666]

I guess? He's the only person I know that brings up movies and anime as feats for Dragonball.

I never bring the movies when i know they are non canon. on the other hand you still failed to prove that the anime isn't canon

 

[Hardy]

I never bring the movies when i know they are non canon. on the other hand you still failed to prove that the anime isn't canon

You brought up Movie Brolly in his first round.

Just with the Yamcha example I got enough. I'm not going to check episode by episode to find inconsistencies, there's a list of that online alreasy.

 

[Jammin]

@Blakestnight666 @Hardy What exactly is your discussionpoint? Because we are offrailing really hard right now. Whats filler and whats not?

I just want you to know I appreciate how you tried get everybody to restate and clarify the discussion points. You may have been ignored but I applaud you for the attempt just the same.

 

[lakhan220]

Seriously Lak? Your source doesnt even work.

Translation of what he said:

Q: In order to reliably defeat Reinhard, what should one do?
A: Please watch Shin Godzilla. There's no such thing as a reliable winning strategy.


Its a joke answer, similar to this one


Q: In last year's questions, it was said that Reinhard could wipe out the world fairly easily, but in concrete terms, how would he do it? If that's a secret, please tell me the sort of pro-wrestling move that Reinhard would probably like.
A: The Brain Buster looks cool, so I think he'd like it.


Also Reinhard can destroy the entire world in an instant with Reid and then reshape it to a previous form as stated in the novel. Destroying Od Laguna is also the same as destroying all existence. He's not going to do it tho, he's a hero not a cosmic bulldozer lol.

This question and answer summarized it pretty well (spoilers!)

Q: If Subaru wasn't there, it was said the Regulus fight would have stalemated without a conclusion, but isn't there a chance that the situation would have gradually worsened and he'd have lost? Is Reinhard still the stronger one, despite that? Also, could he have discovered some kind of method to put an end to the fight?

A: If Reinhard had been serious, he could have blown everything away and wiped out Regulus' brides, but he doesn't do that sort of thing so it was said it would be a stalemate. If he'll use any means available to win, there's no one he can't beat, but it's not that kind of story, right?


Reinhard is constantly restraining himself to not kill the people around him. If he went bonkers all would end. The reason Satella vs Reinhard is a stalemate is not because he can't destroy her. Its that if destroying her takes the entire world and the people he loves with it that is not a win for Rein.

If you start your argument with fake information the entire thing falls apart man.

1-I translated tweet literally in multiple sources and it said it what i posted above. if u really want to prove. I m lying or deliberately misleading bring me the original japanese answer from the interview with source and i will concur on him being as strong as shin godzilla part.

Also, keyword in there for a long time, means author might have stated before.
2-U still didn't nullify the source tht states tht he would take as much time as godzilla would take to destroy eurasia. And tht too is not my headcanon but literal translation of the tweet.

So, once again, i would say, if it is equivalent to godzilla destroying eurasia, even tht would take some time as in few days.

https://matomame.jp/user/FrenchToast/7213871fd493f88377ac
https://rezero.wiki.fc2.com/wiki/askまとめ　ランキング
3- Trick u ? No need for name calling and be offensive here . I took literal tweet and translated it, But good now u made me look up source.
2014 or arnd it clearly states tht author called difference between subaru and reinhard too. Basically, u ignored whole post or let's say conveniently decided to ignore as to the actual strength comparison when i asked abt it.

Author states difference between subaru and reinhard is comparable to difference between a high school girl and godzilla. And as we know subaru is one of the weakest character in the series. Petra's Pl was stated to be 1. u can based on tht decide where subaru stands and where reinhars stands.

Still does it equal vegeta who can destroy more than solar system in SSJ2 ? No, and now SSJ blue.

So, my argument still stands as it is.

Reinhard which can destroy Od Laguna is at best u can decide his durability a world destroyer where as Saiyans have been planet destroyer since ages and since they were just 8k PL.

He can't do it, anything else is your headcanon.

The only thing headcanon is ur denial when it is clearly stated tht he intentionally doesn't want to use it. Is IT one time use technique tht u forget after one use ? No
There is clear difference between not wanting to use it and actually being unable to use it

Yeah, I just dont see the need to invent scenarios in which your character wins and base them on fake information to make "your favourite" win. If Lak didn't actually know then I'll apologize but it seems like he tried trick on purpose there.

Trick ? I have addressed tht above. I literally translated tweet for what it was.
And no u need to invent scenarios or factually hide infos like say for blessing of Phoenix. did u mention there is a condition for it ?

Q: Please give me more details on the protection of the phoenix!

A: As long as there is someone's voice asking for help in the world, even if you defeat me, the second and third servants will appear.

Really now ? in a battle between 2 characters, u r relying on voice of someone to resurrect and u r telling DB fans r inventing scenarios ?
So, if noone is asking for help, he won't resurrect and he will die. Correct ? Stop relying on 3rd characters and actually just hiding infos.
Now as for source
https://matomame.jp/jump/?url=http://ask.fm/nezumiironyanko/answers/114399689397

So, sorry, but this immortality via resurrection is BS and not applicable here since it relies on 3rd character.

Its not World on "planet sense" but the entire dimension. He literally ripped the sky open (cracking it) and obliterated everything existing in that timeline, to then have it restored to how it was before the calamity.

And yes he has UI but better, as UI can be outsmarted but blessings can only be overwhelmed by authorities (powers beyond universal laws).

Even Majin buu with just a scream ripped apart holes in dimensions...so nothing new here for DB chaarcters.

Well, a soul that cannot be destroyed and a body that can respawn everytime it dies is pretty much immortality in my eyes. If it isnt to yours I cannot convince you.

My point is he cannot be eliminated through means like Hakai, as long as that goes through its fine.

Once again, u r really not giving complete info . Like i said, the divine blessing of protection of phoenix only works and is reliant on 3rd party asking for help, so, here does not apply, so he is not immortal.

As for the immortality I feel like its a play of words, but fine. Lets say he "can die but not" lol

No, he can die. As long as noone wishes for help from him, he could be killed never to be resurrected and then od laguna can be destroyed pre, post or during battle too.

Vegeta can't even blow up and tie because rein will be just resurrected in the middle of space and then be blessed to live in another world.

Tht is the play here...he deliberately hides info. Divine protection of Phoenix relies on the people actually seeking for help...it clearly states tht as long as someone needs help, meaning 3rd party and is not applicable here in battle of 2 characters. Vegeta kills him, blasting the sun and there is no voice tht needs his help, he is not gonna resurrect.

And let's be clear rezero world has only earth and moon, so now expanding it to universe tier is just him trying to play with words here/

Theres a big difference on the arguments behind the character. Reinhard is op, and is designed to be op on purpose. He's hax incarnate and he's like that in order to counter the other insane stuff of his own universe.

On the other hand, DragonBall arguments are a No Limit Fallacy, disregarding anything else other than its own universe powers.

- Your character's light speed fast and can keep rising beyond that? Nah Vegeta is 1000 times faster than light, he speedblitz ez (lol).
- Your character can destroy his universe? Nah a DB planet is greater than the entire Universe of your series, Vegeta stomps.
- Your character has protection against any physical/energetic attacks? Nah, DB character will just shit on it through power alone.

This is why its impossible to debate with DragonBall fanatics, they glorify the series to no end and wont listen to arguments except their own.
I've answered 4 times to @Sachsenhesse on the topic of why Hakai doesnt work but he keeps ignoring me. Why? Because he doesn't care about debating, just making his pov go through.

This is also why Im not a fan of Dragonball making it this far, the discussion becomes terrible: scaling, assumption of limit breaking moments (like FT), etc.

Let's not put words in other people's mouths , which shows u r insecure.
A character's light speed was stated by the author. A character moving more than the speed of light was portrayed by the author
A character actually being able to destroy solar system - author made the character say it
And magnitude of those attacks once again had numerical value until frieza's 2nd pre final transformation. After which, time and time again, it was protrayed tht their clashes had tht magnitude

So, yes, DB fans will say they will overpower in physicality. Has Reinhard shown a single physical attack tht is felt in completely different planetary systems ?
U are so adamant on providing blessings advantage to reinhard, but clearly want to ignore the feats tt r actually shown and try to downplay it.

Theres hundreds of Hax characters everywhere, Reinhard is just one of them. They are characters meant to break their own universe laws.

DragonBall characters dont fall under that category, its the fandom what raises them to that status.

And clearly, haters who conveniently ignores and tries to downplay them despite actual portrayal.

Scaling is only linear in claims, then a hundred feats come ending those claims. DB is one of the most inconsistent series ever created.

Does it nullify anything tht is used from portrayal of series ? No, it doesn't.

Now, tht brings me to hakai energy not working on reinhard
Rezero world - authorities>Divine blessings> everything else.
DB world - Zeno>Gods of destruction>kais and others. I m skipping daishikin and angels here.

So, even if u were to compare the world, gods of destruction's rank would actually be at least equal to divine blessings of rezero.
Now, the divine thing of DB world can't work on Reinhard, but divine blessings of Re zero r supposed to work on vegeta.

Sorry , but what u r doing is hypocricy here. Ok, if u want to say hakai won't work, then let me cancel out the very essence of divine protection of phoenix.
Vegeta blasts sun, and everything is destroyed and since rezero world only consists of earth, with everything gone there r no `Voices in the head` tht will need help or call out to reinhard so he is not gonna regenerate. World won't let reinhard die it says, but world itself exists no more, so resurrection is very much done for.

Ok, once again I reinstate, i have put 2 scenarios in my previous post on how vegeta can win, anything u want to say abt it ?

Because as it stands, vegeta takes this fight and yeah, reinhard can die without resurrecting too since no voices in the head.

 

[Hardy]

And those four galaxies are four quadrants which contains innumerable stars and nebulas which are galaxies.

Nebulae aren't necessarily galaxies, in fact they are often used as a much smaller magnitude of space. In its Daizenshuu context the word "4 galaxies" come up twice. Again, it's not clear at all and we only got a proper explanation in super

 

[Blakestnight666]

You brought up Movie Brolly in his first round.

Just with the Yamcha example I got enough. I'm not going to check episode by episode to find inconsistencies, there's a list of that online alreasy.

That broly was my mistake.

And i already proved that how time works in other World and yamcha got stronger through training in different world

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Why does it even matter? Its not, that the tournamentrules are clearyl laid out in that matter, whats canon and whats not, as long its from official sources it good to go in my book. Arguing about this and that is just semantics.

The Hit scene I concede, tho one could argue the effectiveness of the technique depends on the power of the opponent its used on, just like when Goku Blue KKx10 broke through it but before that couldn't (because Hit was a strong as him).

Exactly. In the dragonballverse its all based around power. You can have haxabilities, like that one furry who could poison people on impact... vegeta guarded against that with superior ki. Its kinda dumb, but also fun. Your reinhard would have wished for a blessing to resist poison there, vegeta went the saiyan way.

I just want you to know I appreciate how you tried get everybody to restate and clarify the discussion points. You may have been ignored but I applaud you for the attempt just the same.

Thanks, i appreciate it.

 

[Lambu]

I think you're confused about what you're responding to.

We were talking about the fact that if the text of ReZero does not seem confirm the scope of the dragon sword to being on the scale of what you said then the anime version would probably be taken to be proof that the idea that it's larger than just a the world is fan fiction. Since the anime version is at least official. Where as the other interpretation apparently doesn't even have that backing it up. I agree that anime adapations take liberties and should be viewed as such. But it does trump.. nothing.

Though I have yet to sit down and look this stuff up. I'm just going off what's been in this thread.

Novel should always be taken over the anime, its the original source material vs an adaptation.

The same happens to DragonBall, if something doesnt even happen in the source material for it makes no sense for it to happen, then the anime filler that contradicts the manga's aspects shouldn't be considered canon, else things start to get very out of hand.

 

[Hardy]

Oh that's a nice reply

 

[Lambu]

Why does it even matter? Its not, that the tournamentrules are clearyl laid out in that matter, whats canon and whats not, as long its from official sources it good to go in my book. Arguing about this and that is just semantics.



Exactly. In the dragonballverse its all based around power. You can have haxabilities, like that one furry who could poison people on impact... vegeta guarded against that with superior ki. Its kinda dumb, but also fun. Your reinhard would have wished for a blessing to resist poison there, vegeta went the saiyan way.



Thanks, i appreciate it.

If he got stung by Frost, Vegeta would have been poisoned and eliminated just like Goku and Piccolo were. He didn't become inmune to poison through ki, he just avoided getting stung.

 

[Blakestnight666]

and here the world practically refers to the planet if re zero

 

[Hardy]

Why does it even matter? Its not, that the tournamentrules are clearyl laid out in that matter, whats canon and whats not, as long its from official sources it good to go in my book. Arguing about this and that is just semantics.

Does matter if they both convey a different magnitude for their characters and contradict each other.

That broly was my mistake.

And i already proved that how time works in other World and yamcha got stronger through training in different world

 

[Blakestnight666]

 

[Hardy]

If he got stung by Frost, Vegeta would have been poisoned and eliminated just like Goku and Piccolo were. He didn't become inmune to poison through ki, he just avoided getting stung.

I think he means another furry. Tho the furry I remember got Gohan blind with eye poison or some dumb shit like thst.

 

[Jammin]

Novel should always be taken over the anime, its the original source material vs an adaptation.

The same happens to DragonBall, if something doesnt even happen in the source material for it makes no sense for it to happen, then the anime filler that contradicts the manga's aspects shouldn't be considered canon, else things start to get very out of hand.

I totally agree but the novel actually has to say it. If the novel doesn't define something in the way you wish. And the anime does define it in a way you do not wish but reinforces the idea that the way you wished to see it was not correct. How can you assume the anime is incorrect?

You're defending fan fiction at that point.

 

[Blakestnight666]

I totally agree but the novel actually has to say it. If the novel doesn't define something in the way you wish. And the anime does define it in a way you do not wish but reinforces the idea that the way you wished to see it was not correct. How can you assume the anime is incorrect?

Your defending fan fiction at that point.

Similarly there should at least be a few characters who can at least destroy stars or galaxies for us to even believe that there is a universe buster. But the series caps at planet level at best and that too is questionable

 

[GrySun]

I'll feel quite lied to if Lambu can't dispute what lakhan said regarding the revival, I don't think the battles assume other characters participating so it would make his revival effectively not work no?

 

[Jammin]

Similarly there should at least be a few characters who can at least destroy stars or galaxies for us to even believe that there is a universe buster. But the series caps at planet level at best and that too is questionable

All things are possible in bad writting but it needs to say it. Like even a line like "The star flickered out of a moment" or "The sun went dark." Anything to indicate it's influence extends beyond the borders of a world. Because if it doesn't that as far as the range can be assumed to be.

If what Lambu cited is all there is.. there is nothing like that in the text.