Discussion Sanji Discussion Thread

Who will be Sanji's main opponent during the Raid on Onigashima?


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Nie Li

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If you look at it that way then the suit existing at all is weird, since sanji left ages ago... Are the suits insanely old or did judge also make the suit when making the others? Add to that, the suit is described in that comic book... Overall this is just confusing.

Diable jambe bothers me even more than azura tbh. Gear second not so much because even fuzzy mechanics are mechanics. On this at least I give OP a fair bit of suspension of disbelief. Diable jambe in turn makes little sense because even in this series fire is something that burns you unless you have some manner of protection. Where diable jambe sort of fits without it being an enhancement is that there are other people capable of arbitrarily creating fire. Zoro has a few techniques which burn the enemy and luffy has red hawk.. But sanji's siblings definitely place diable jambe in a weird place. And it seems like an opportunity to make it make more sense. As in, sanji having a genetic trait that allows him to set himself on fire makes more sense than him not having it.
But what about Luffy's Red Hawk? Even underwater (under the ocean while fighting Hody) that punch of his generates a real fire explosion. It's just as fuzzy and unexplained as DJ.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Edit: And yeah, there's also Zoro's Ryuuma as you mentioned in your post, but Red Hawk is similar to DJ in that it doesn't hurt Luffy despite Luffy having no special resistance to fire, and there being no explanation as to how the hell does his fist generate fire, specially underwater.

It's all too fuzzy for me.

Either way 100% agreed on the existance of the suits also being fuzzy. Suit number 3 was made for Sanji (San meaning 3), and there has been no previous wearer of the suit mentioned. Why and when did Judge create it? Absolutely no idea. Perhaps they were made for the siblings when they were still kids and the suits just have the power to adapt to the size/age of the wearer? They're futuristic after all.
 

King Moe

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Sora nearly killed herself in an attempt to keep the boys human, with Sanji being the only one she saved. While Sanji ending up modified wouldn't make her sacrifices completely pointless, but it would significantly weaken the meaning behind them.

Plus, thematically, Sanji's entire existence proves that his father was wrong in his methods. He's human and managed to grow into an incredibly strong individual because of that aspect.

As for the Raid Suit, I'm fairly certain that Franky and Usopp just modified the appearance, seeing as how that was the only thing Sanji mentioned wanting changed.
Not necessarily as she just didn't want her children to be emotionless monsters, not so much to have abilities of their own. She loves Reiju despite her having abilities and still having her emotions, so if Sanji were to have genetics unlock while still having his emotions intact, then it's not really disgracing her legacy as more reinforcing it that even with his power, he still stay true to the person he is. He won't be emotionless monster like she fear on what Judge wanted.

Also on Diable Jamble talks, there is big possible canon theory on that Sanji unlock Haki during his fight with Jabra since he cloak his foot in fire similar to how Luffy did Red Hawk, which if so I can see it happening especially it's confirmed CP9 members had Haki at the time, so could be through the fight, Sanji unlocks his to dominate over Jabra even more. Do anyone think this is true?
 
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HereNThere

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Not necessarily as she just didn't want her children to be emotionless monsters, not so much to have abilities of their own. She loves Reiju despite her having abilities and still having her emotions, so if Sanji were to have genetics unlock while still having his emotions intact, then it's not really disgracing her legacy as more reinforcing it that even with his power, he still stay true to the person he is. He won't be emotionless monster like she fear on what Judge wanted.

Also on Diable Jamble talks, there is big possible canon theory no that Sanji unlock Haki during his fight with Jabra since he cloak his foot in fire similar to how Luffy did Red Hawk, which if so I can see it happening especially it's confirmed CP9 members had Haki at the time, so could be through the fight, Sanji unlocks his to dominate over Jabra even more. Do anyone think this is true?
That's why I said it wouldn't completely render her actions pointless. Clearly he'd keep the emotional development he's gained throughout his years without genetic modifications. But, at least in my opinion, it'd really trivialize all the suffering he and his mother went through if he was still influenced by his father's machinations anyway. Plus it'd feel like a cop out on Oda's part. I really wouldn't like it.

I agree with the theory. I've proposed it several times in this very thread. As I stated then, it'd be similar to how Zoro's Shishi Sonson was also, in hindsight, an early form of unmastered haki.
 

King Moe

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That's why I said it wouldn't completely render her actions pointless. Clearly he'd keep the emotional development he's gained throughout his years without genetic modifications. But, at least in my opinion, it'd really trivialize all the suffering he and his mother went through if he was still influenced by his father's machinations anyway. Plus it'd feel like a cop out on Oda's part. I really wouldn't like it.

I agree with the theory. I've proposed it several times in this very thread. As I stated then, it'd be similar to how Zoro's Shishi Sonson was also, in hindsight, an early form of unmastered haki.
I can understand that, but since he using RS already, seems like it's notion she meant more that she didn't want him be emotionless monster than not having powers though. Reiju looks to be proof about that as she didn't have anything to say about her given her position. It's not bad writing or cop-out, but just Sanji realizing to understand he will make use of these abilities, but not way his family does it. It be his own way and by his own emotions, so it still reincforce about that.

I think so too. It is interesting to realize that Strawhats possible unlock Haki early on pre-timeskip at least Luffy, Sanji, and Zoro who unlock theirs compare to the others in their fight. Which does give truth in what Rayleigh said as 'tough the fight, the stronger your Haki' grows, so push narrative that everyone need huge struggle fights if they are to get stronger in the upcoming future arcs.
 

Fox666

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Not necessarily as she just didn't want her children to be emotionless monsters, not so much to have abilities of their own. She loves Reiju despite her having abilities and still having her emotions, so if Sanji were to have genetics unlock while still having his emotions intact, then it's not really disgracing her legacy as more reinforcing it that even with his power, he still stay true to the person he is. He won't be emotionless monster like she fear on what Judge wanted.

Also on Diable Jamble talks, there is big possible canon theory on that Sanji unlock Haki during his fight with Jabra since he cloak his foot in fire similar to how Luffy did Red Hawk, which if so I can see it happening especially it's confirmed CP9 members had Haki at the time, so could be through the fight, Sanji unlocks his to dominate over Jabra even more. Do anyone think this is true?
If Sanji used Haki pre-timeskip, I would expect it to be CoO, and only used in rare occasions.

It was made clear the first time Sanji used Diable Jamble that he adds friction to his leg by spinning.

In Red Hawk case, presumably Luffy stretches his arm to make it thinner, thus concentrating the heat from Gear 2. He needs CoA because the heat comes from inside of his body.
 

King Moe

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If Sanji used Haki pre-timeskip, I would expect it to be CoO, and only used in rare occasions.

It was made clear the first time Sanji used Diable Jamble that he adds friction to his leg by spinning.

In Red Hawk case, presumably Luffy stretches his arm to make it thinner, thus concentrating the heat from Gear 2. He needs CoA because the heat comes from inside of his body.
Seems like he unlock both in pre-timeskip as DJ could still be Haki-related despite how he did it. You need to have strong body to not burn from the flames after all.
 

M3J

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Sora nearly killed herself in an attempt to keep the boys human, with Sanji being the only one she saved. While Sanji ending up modified wouldn't make her sacrifices completely pointless, but it would significantly weaken the meaning behind them.

Plus, thematically, Sanji's entire existence proves that his father was wrong in his methods. He's human and managed to grow into an incredibly strong individual because of that aspect.

As for the Raid Suit, I'm fairly certain that Franky and Usopp just modified the appearance, seeing as how that was the only thing Sanji mentioned wanting changed.
Sanji ending up modified would be a stupid move on Oda's part, and it'd take away from Sanji. He's great without any modification and powerful/strong without the suit, and I hope Oda doesn't make him rely on the suit.
 

King Moe

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Sanji ending up modified would be a stupid move on Oda's part, and it'd take away from Sanji. He's great without any modification and powerful/strong without the suit, and I hope Oda doesn't make him rely on the suit.
He doesn't rely it, but will use it for stealth missions than for power though. He don't care fighting without it or with it.
 

kkck

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At the time sanji hasn't evidenced the skill or power to be a big part in the war without the suit though. I am also of the idea that the suit is a crutch but given sanji's lack of feats and list of defeats in the new world he absolutely needs it for the time being. Hopefully this won't be the case in the long run, he needs to maintain his place as third strongest crewmember and a win sometime.
 

Lord Traffy Law

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to explain again
within the same arc

sanji struggles and loses pretty handily to blueno
jyabura is essentially 2.5x stronger than blueno, then add the zoan df fruit which enhances his strength , he's possibly 3x-4x stronger than blueno ( maybe even 5 )

and sanji actually defeats him with high/mid difficulty ( heck this arc was the birth of zoro and sanji as being on the same level, because jyabura and kaku were on the same level and jyabura having the slight edge with experience with a canirvorous df, which are inherently stronger than herbivore fruits , with kaku slight edge in douriki , and sanji dealt with jyabura easier than zoro dealt with kaku )


so the idea that sanji can't suddenly just jump and defeat high level yonkou commanders like queen and king shouldn't be ruled out
 
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Lord Traffy Law

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oda can make sanji as strong as he wants on a whim
and honestly the diable jambe does feel like a modification side effect to me, ala his mum didn't undo the effects completely
 
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redhairSH

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Well, Sanjis mom seemed mainly against the fact that the modifications would turn her children into superhuman sociopaths that are enslaved to judges will, if they were just super strong and durable but were normal children mentally, maybe she’d have been fine with it? and with Sanji if diable jambe is an effect of his modifications, I think his mom would be ok with it, since he mostly uses it to protect his crewmates, women, and beating up evil ppl.

As far as we’ve seen, Sanji hasn’t gone all out in the new world, the only times I think we’ve been confirmed to see him using armament haki is against judge and when he was around Caesar, so it’s possible he didn’t use it against Doflamingo, Niji, or Vergo, and haki, especially hardening, is such a boost to damage, that stacking that onto diable jambe might have done a lot more damage when he was attacking doffy or Vergo, and Vergo was bleeding anyway after taking his kicks and doffy did mention that his physical power was impressive.

Also, his haki skills are more impressive than they seem, Luffy mentioned in fishman island that his haki is great for defending against blunt strikes and impacts, but not great against bladed/piercing attacks, like Hodys bites, but Sanji took Judges raid suit spear head on with haki, so while his armament offensive skills haven’t been very highlighted, his armament defensive skills seem more versatile than Luffy were during fishman island. Also, Katakuri seems to be able to attack and evade anyone as long as he is focused, and the other person has a lower level of observation, but Sanji dodged his jelly bean attack, and we know observation is his specialty, she could have badass observation powers that we haven’t seen yet, observation haki can be used to sense everything on an entire island, hear voices of everyone in your range, see the future, we don’t know for sure the limit of Sanjis.

The raid suit is the perfect tool for him, it boosts kicking attack power, defense, stealth ability, and flight mobility. It makes sense that the Germa had a suit to match the comic, since the comic character had to come from somewhere, and making it an invisible and giving black as the color seems like a way to say that he’s the black sheep of the family and that they havent seen him. Other than the stealth ability, which is all the suit, as the others have suits that compliment their specific powers, it’s just got the standard abilities, and Usopp and Franky could upgrade the crap out of it, it’s actually super lucky that one of the standard suit powers is that it can’t be damaged by fire and Sanji uses fire as a weapon

Also, when he fought page 1, who is literally one level beneath the All Stars, he was basically just testing the suit and didn’t use haki or diable jambe and seemed to be winning, if he fights serious and uses haki invisible jet enhanced diable jambe raid suit foot kicks, he could grow as the fight goes on enough to beat a yonko commander, Jinbei is techni yonko commander level since he fought ace to a draw, and I can totally see stealth black Sanji going toe to toe with jinbe.
 

M3J

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to explain again
within the same arc

sanji struggles and loses pretty handily to blueno
jyabura is essentially 2.5x stronger than blueno, then add the zoan df fruit which enhances his strength , he's possibly 3x-4x stronger than blueno ( maybe even 5 )

and sanji actually defeats him with high/mid difficulty ( heck this arc was the birth of zoro and sanji as being on the same level, because jyabura and kaku were on the same level and jyabura having the slight edge with experience with a canirvorous df, which are inherently stronger than herbivore fruits , with kaku slight edge in douriki , and sanji dealt with jyabura easier than zoro dealt with kaku )


so the idea that sanji can't suddenly just jump and defeat high level yonkou commanders like queen and king shouldn't be ruled out
Exactly! Luffy and Zoro got blown away in one attack by Lucci and weren't able to do anything to him, but they still beat him and Kaku in an actual fight. Sanji will get as strong as he needs to, even if he's weak early in the arc that doesn't mean anything. He could still take on King or Queen and win.
 

Fox666

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to explain again
within the same arc

sanji struggles and loses pretty handily to blueno
Sanji was clearly stronger than Blueno



He lost because he was also fighting Kaku, and Blueno used his ability to attack Sanji from behind
 

King Moe

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Sanji was clearly stronger than Blueno



He lost because he was also fighting Kaku, and Blueno used his ability to attack Sanji from behind
Though not really since he was distracted and also he was able to beat someone around Kaku's level with Jabra who is far more stronger and experience in his DF than he was, so it still shows that Oda can make cast jump ahead stronger than others especially if they train to reach new heights of power.
 

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Though not really since he was distracted and also he was able to beat someone around Kaku's level with Jabra who is far more stronger and experience in his DF than he was, so it still shows that Oda can make cast jump ahead stronger than others especially if they train to reach new heights of power.
stronger than kaku? Jabra isn't.
Sanji cannot beat blueno with base form (as shown in the image above, he cannot break his tekkai), but i would say diable jambe can finish him off.
 

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stronger than kaku? Jabra isn't.
Sanji cannot beat blueno with base form (as shown in the image above, he cannot break his tekkai), but i would say diable jambe can finish him off.
The problem is that Diable Jable isn't a form, its essentially an attack. Correct?
 

Fox666

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stronger than kaku? Jabra isn't.
Sanji cannot beat blueno with base form (as shown in the image above, he cannot break his tekkai), but i would say diable jambe can finish him off.
The image shows precisely that Sanji could break Blueno's Tekkai easily.

Blueno has an expression of pain, and Kaku said Sanji almost broke his Tekkai with that second kick.
 
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